Anet back in Silent Mode

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm saying Anet doesn't need your feedback before content is released.

Already answered this, but I guess it needs repeating: so they'd rather play damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether. Good to know

Do not equate Anet communicating more with players as an opportunity to play armchair game developer.

I guess it was these bad armchair game developers that made Rebound a better skill, than the planned one. They changed how Mordrem Snipers work due to feedback from the beta. There were guilds invited to try the previous Raids, and it's why those were better received than the last two that had no raid guilds testing them. There are lots of examples of changes that happened thanks to early access to content. It's a process every mmorpg out there uses to some extent, Arenanet is fixated on giving us previews a week before they go live, as if they are afraid of their work.

Don't be dishonest here ... Anet ALSO (by your OWN examples) gets player feedback and listens to it's players. NO one is arguing they shouldn't be doing that. It's about WHEN they should do that.

Which goes hand in hand with their communication. For example of they had communicated in advance about the new rune system (ui and ppl were allowed to see it and give feedback early in its development we wouldnt be playing catcjup to fix issues post release.

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

Well, I can because basically, no matter what Anet does, they can't win so why should they try appease these kinds of frivolous complaints? Anet doesn't communicate ... they are terrible communicators. Anet does communicate ... it's just a big show and not 'real' communication.

People just aren't being honest here. It's not the communication that's the problem they have .. it's the idea that they don't think they are being listened to. Not sure why honesty is such a big barrier here.

Looking forward to the stream and then another silence of x months.

Hey, if that's their pattern, why would any reasonable person expect otherwise? I don't get why all these people have talked themselves into the idea that more communication = more interaction with players. That's not real. A few examples doesn't make that true.

Its not expecting otherwise, its being displeased with what we are getting and therefor giving some feedback about it. Or am i not allowed to give feedback before we see the event?

Give all the feedback you want, just don't complain if Anet doesn't do anything about it like 99% of the people that think they are armchair game devs. It's simply not a realistic process to think feedback means Anet does what you want.

If anet did what i wanted the feedback would be alot more different, im simply trying to meet in the middle with them. And i think the middle to everything in this game is communication which is what im trying to help improve.

[Obtena.7952]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm saying Anet doesn't need your feedback before content is released.

Already answered this, but I guess it needs repeating: so they'd rather play damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether. Good to know

Do not equate Anet communicating more with players as an opportunity to play armchair game developer.

I guess it was these bad armchair game developers that made Rebound a better skill, than the planned one. They changed how Mordrem Snipers work due to feedback from the beta. There were guilds invited to try the previous Raids, and it's why those were better received than the last two that had no raid guilds testing them. There are lots of examples of changes that happened thanks to early access to content. It's a process every mmorpg out there uses to some extent, Arenanet is fixated on giving us previews a week before they go live, as if they are afraid of their work.

Don't be dishonest here ... Anet ALSO (by your OWN examples) gets player feedback and listens to it's players. NO one is arguing they shouldn't be doing that. It's about WHEN they should do that.

Which goes hand in hand with their communication. For example of they had communicated in advance about the new rune system (ui and ppl were allowed to see it and give feedback early in its development we wouldnt be playing catcjup to fix issues post release.

Again, you're not getting how this works. Sure if they HAD ... but they don't. Maybe instead of thinking it's wrong, you should ask yourself why it works the way it does.

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm saying Anet doesn't need your feedback before content is released.

Already answered this, but I guess it needs repeating: so they'd rather play damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether. Good to know

Do not equate Anet communicating more with players as an opportunity to play armchair game developer.

I guess it was these bad armchair game developers that made Rebound a better skill, than the planned one. They changed how Mordrem Snipers work due to feedback from the beta. There were guilds invited to try the previous Raids, and it's why those were better received than the last two that had no raid guilds testing them. There are lots of examples of changes that happened thanks to early access to content. It's a process every mmorpg out there uses to some extent, Arenanet is fixated on giving us previews a week before they go live, as if they are afraid of their work.

Don't be dishonest here ... Anet ALSO (by your OWN examples) gets player feedback and listens to it's players. NO one is arguing they shouldn't be doing that. It's about WHEN they should do that.

Which goes hand in hand with their communication. For example of they had communicated in advance about the new rune system (ui and ppl were allowed to see it and give feedback early in its development we wouldnt be playing catcjup to fix issues post release.

Again, you're not getting how this works. Sure if they HAD ... but they don't. Maybe instead of thinking it's wrong, you should ask yourself why it works the way it does.

But it doesnt work, their communication as is rn doesnt work its like you asking me why are they doing a balance patch once every quarter, its because thats what they know.

You act like they cant adapt and change their aproach in order to get better result which is flat out wrong. They cha ged their aproach with living world multiple times and they changed their aproach to balance multiple times.

Like Nike said in his video anet has a very specific and outdated mindset on communication and modern publicity/social media and that is hurting their brand.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

And u all thought things would be a different lol soon the game will be back in maintenance mode as they start focusing on their next big future project until ncsoft see's lower and lower funds being produced and says enough's enough and just closes up shop.

[Obtena.7952]

@zealex.9410 said:But it doesnt work

I'm not asking you if it works or not. I'm asking you to think why it's being done this way. It's bad and terrible? OK ... so obviously they aren't doing it this way because it's bad and terrible ... so why?

It's super easy to just take a big dump on everything you don't like and pretend you think you know better. That's hardly a way to make a good impression and be taken seriously.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

Well, I can because basically, no matter what Anet does, they can't win so why should they try appease these kinds of frivolous complaints? Anet doesn't communicate ... they are terrible communicators. Anet does communicate ... it's just a big show and not 'real' communication.

People just aren't being honest here. It's not the communication that's the problem they have .. it's the idea that they don't think they are being listened to. Not sure why honesty is such a big barrier here.

Except they aren't frivolous complaints. I've played Guild Wars, since the first game, which is 14 years. I have never once been frivolous with my criticism of ANet, in fact I have been pretty faithful and supportive of ANet throughout said years, with tiny bouts of criticism that were resolved in past years and I've even defended some of their actions as well as the state of the game.

Yet recently I have not had similar faith in ANet, nor do I qualify this criticism as "frivolous". You consider myself and others to be unreasonable, that we are trying to be "arm chair devs" , that we aren't being honest when that is far from the case. In fact I think what many of us are unhappy with is indeed the fact that they aren't communicating well and that they aren't heeding the feedback given, especially when there are instances of constructive and helpful feedback.

Just because I suggested that I was skeptical of what amounts to only an announcement and not information does not mean my mind is closed off to the possibility that its an indication that things are going to change or improve after their Dev presentation at PAX. That is the entire point of skepticism, not that "they can't win" but more that we don't have the right kind of information to know yet. Hence "We'll see". I'm looking forward to seeing, I am, but I'm not going to get caught up in a hype train or build up expectations on what amounts to something we reasonably have no information on other than "This is a thing that is happening on this date".

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm saying Anet doesn't need your feedback before content is released.

Already answered this, but I guess it needs repeating: so they'd rather play damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether. Good to know

Do not equate Anet communicating more with players as an opportunity to play armchair game developer.

I guess it was these bad armchair game developers that made Rebound a better skill, than the planned one. They changed how Mordrem Snipers work due to feedback from the beta. There were guilds invited to try the previous Raids, and it's why those were better received than the last two that had no raid guilds testing them. There are lots of examples of changes that happened thanks to early access to content. It's a process every mmorpg out there uses to some extent, Arenanet is fixated on giving us previews a week before they go live, as if they are afraid of their work.

Don't be dishonest here ... Anet ALSO (by your OWN examples) gets player feedback and listens to it's players. NO one is arguing they shouldn't be doing that. It's about WHEN they should do that.

Which goes hand in hand with their communication. For example of they had communicated in advance about the new rune system (ui and ppl were allowed to see it and give feedback early in its development we wouldnt be playing catcjup to fix issues post release.

Again, you're not getting how this works. Sure if they HAD ... but they don't. Maybe instead of thinking it's wrong, you should ask yourself why it works the way it does.

This goes hand in hand with the point being made, doesn't it? By suggesting that players believe ANets communication practices to be...less than ideal it also means we're concerned as to why that is when they could change their approach, and there are numerous examples as to how that could benefit them in the future as it has for many others; including ANet in the past.

You've come into this discussion multiple times now under the presumption that there is some...unspoken hidden connotation or agenda behind the standpoint myself and others are taking, hurling accusations and fighting vehemently against said standpoint despite the fact that I have personally seen you give similar feedback and similar criticism towards ANet in the past (Berserker rework), as well as recently with the Legendary Upgrades.

Why are you so determined to hold the ground you're on when you have shown every reason to agree with the standpoint that you oppose? That is what confuses me at this moment.

[Obtena.7952]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

Well, I can because basically, no matter what Anet does, they can't win so why should they try appease these kinds of frivolous complaints? Anet doesn't communicate ... they are terrible communicators. Anet does communicate ... it's just a big show and not 'real' communication.

People just aren't being honest here. It's not the communication that's the problem they have .. it's the idea that they don't think they are being listened to. Not sure why honesty is such a big barrier here.

Except they aren't frivolous complaints. I've played Guild Wars, since the first game, which is 14 years. I have never

once

been frivolous with my criticism of ANet, in fact I have been pretty faithful and supportive of ANet throughout said years, with tiny bouts of criticism that were resolved in

past years

and I've even defended some of their actions as well as the state of the game.

Yet recently I have not had similar faith in ANet, nor do I qualify this criticism as "frivolous". You consider myself and others to be unreasonable, that we are trying to be "arm chair devs" , that we aren't being honest when that is far from the case. In fact I think what many of us are unhappy with is indeed the fact that they aren't communicating well

and

that they aren't heeding the feedback given, especially when there are instances of constructive and helpful feedback.

Just because

I

suggested that I was

skeptical

of what amounts to

only an announcement

and not

information

does not mean my mind is closed off to the possibility that its an indication that things are going to change or improve after their Dev presentation at PAX. That is the

entire point of skepticism

, not that "they can't win" but more that we don't have the right kind of information to know yet. Hence "We'll see". I'm looking forward to seeing, I am, but I'm not going to get caught up in a hype train or build up

expectations

on what amounts to something we reasonably have no information on other than "This is a thing that is happening on this date".

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm saying Anet doesn't need your feedback before content is released.

Already answered this, but I guess it needs repeating: so they'd rather play damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether. Good to know

Do not equate Anet communicating more with players as an opportunity to play armchair game developer.

I guess it was these bad armchair game developers that made Rebound a better skill, than the planned one. They changed how Mordrem Snipers work due to feedback from the beta. There were guilds invited to try the previous Raids, and it's why those were better received than the last two that had no raid guilds testing them. There are lots of examples of changes that happened thanks to early access to content. It's a process every mmorpg out there uses to some extent, Arenanet is fixated on giving us previews a week before they go live, as if they are afraid of their work.

Don't be dishonest here ... Anet ALSO (by your OWN examples) gets player feedback and listens to it's players. NO one is arguing they shouldn't be doing that. It's about WHEN they should do that.

Which goes hand in hand with their communication. For example of they had communicated in advance about the new rune system (ui and ppl were allowed to see it and give feedback early in its development we wouldnt be playing catcjup to fix issues post release.

Again, you're not getting how this works. Sure if they HAD ... but they don't. Maybe instead of thinking it's wrong, you should ask yourself why it works the way it does.

This goes hand in hand with the point being made, doesn't it? By suggesting that players believe ANets communication practices to be...less than ideal it also means we're concerned as to

why

that is when they could change their approach, and there are

numerous

examples as to how that could benefit them in the future as it has for many others;

including

ANet in the past.

You've come into this discussion multiple times now under the presumption that there is some...unspoken hidden connotation or agenda behind the standpoint myself and others are taking, hurling accusations and fighting vehemently against said standpoint

despite

the fact that I have personally seen you give

similar

feedback and

similar

criticism towards ANet in the past (Berserker rework), as well as

recently

with the Legendary Upgrades.

Why are you so determined to hold the ground you're on when you have shown every reason to agree with the standpoint that you oppose? That is what confuses me at this moment.

I'm just going to ask you the same question as the other guy ... If the way Anet communicates is terrible, why do they do it? I see you acknowledged I asked the question ... you avoided trying to answer it.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

Well, I can because basically, no matter what Anet does, they can't win so why should they try appease these kinds of frivolous complaints? Anet doesn't communicate ... they are terrible communicators. Anet does communicate ... it's just a big show and not 'real' communication.

People just aren't being honest here. It's not the communication that's the problem they have .. it's the idea that they don't think they are being listened to. Not sure why honesty is such a big barrier here.

Except they aren't frivolous complaints. I've played Guild Wars, since the first game, which is 14 years. I have never

once

been frivolous with my criticism of ANet, in fact I have been pretty faithful and supportive of ANet throughout said years, with tiny bouts of criticism that were resolved in

past years

and I've even defended some of their actions as well as the state of the game.

Yet recently I have not had similar faith in ANet, nor do I qualify this criticism as "frivolous". You consider myself and others to be unreasonable, that we are trying to be "arm chair devs" , that we aren't being honest when that is far from the case. In fact I think what many of us are unhappy with is indeed the fact that they aren't communicating well

and

that they aren't heeding the feedback given, especially when there are instances of constructive and helpful feedback.

Just because

I

suggested that I was

skeptical

of what amounts to

only an announcement

and not

information

does not mean my mind is closed off to the possibility that its an indication that things are going to change or improve after their Dev presentation at PAX. That is the

entire point of skepticism

, not that "they can't win" but more that we don't have the right kind of information to know yet. Hence "We'll see". I'm looking forward to seeing, I am, but I'm not going to get caught up in a hype train or build up

expectations

on what amounts to something we reasonably have no information on other than "This is a thing that is happening on this date".

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm saying Anet doesn't need your feedback before content is released.

Already answered this, but I guess it needs repeating: so they'd rather play damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether. Good to know

Do not equate Anet communicating more with players as an opportunity to play armchair game developer.

I guess it was these bad armchair game developers that made Rebound a better skill, than the planned one. They changed how Mordrem Snipers work due to feedback from the beta. There were guilds invited to try the previous Raids, and it's why those were better received than the last two that had no raid guilds testing them. There are lots of examples of changes that happened thanks to early access to content. It's a process every mmorpg out there uses to some extent, Arenanet is fixated on giving us previews a week before they go live, as if they are afraid of their work.

Don't be dishonest here ... Anet ALSO (by your OWN examples) gets player feedback and listens to it's players. NO one is arguing they shouldn't be doing that. It's about WHEN they should do that.

Which goes hand in hand with their communication. For example of they had communicated in advance about the new rune system (ui and ppl were allowed to see it and give feedback early in its development we wouldnt be playing catcjup to fix issues post release.

Again, you're not getting how this works. Sure if they HAD ... but they don't. Maybe instead of thinking it's wrong, you should ask yourself why it works the way it does.

This goes hand in hand with the point being made, doesn't it? By suggesting that players believe ANets communication practices to be...less than ideal it also means we're concerned as to

why

that is when they could change their approach, and there are

numerous

examples as to how that could benefit them in the future as it has for many others;

including

ANet in the past.

You've come into this discussion multiple times now under the presumption that there is some...unspoken hidden connotation or agenda behind the standpoint myself and others are taking, hurling accusations and fighting vehemently against said standpoint

despite

the fact that I have personally seen you give

similar

feedback and

similar

criticism towards ANet in the past (Berserker rework), as well as

recently

with the Legendary Upgrades.

Why are you so determined to hold the ground you're on when you have shown every reason to agree with the standpoint that you oppose? That is what confuses me at this moment.

I'm just going to ask you the same question as the other guy ... If the way Anet communicates is terrible, why do they do it? I see you acknowledged I asked the question ... you avoided trying to answer it.

Because ANet isn't infallible...it is entirely possible for them, as a company, to make mistakes even if they are prolonged. You've seen as much yourself, and voiced criticism of, in regards to their rework of Berserker in the past.

Why is this any different?

[Obtena.7952]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

Well, I can because basically, no matter what Anet does, they can't win so why should they try appease these kinds of frivolous complaints? Anet doesn't communicate ... they are terrible communicators. Anet does communicate ... it's just a big show and not 'real' communication.

People just aren't being honest here. It's not the communication that's the problem they have .. it's the idea that they don't think they are being listened to. Not sure why honesty is such a big barrier here.

Except they aren't frivolous complaints. I've played Guild Wars, since the first game, which is 14 years. I have never

once

been frivolous with my criticism of ANet, in fact I have been pretty faithful and supportive of ANet throughout said years, with tiny bouts of criticism that were resolved in

past years

and I've even defended some of their actions as well as the state of the game.

Yet recently I have not had similar faith in ANet, nor do I qualify this criticism as "frivolous". You consider myself and others to be unreasonable, that we are trying to be "arm chair devs" , that we aren't being honest when that is far from the case. In fact I think what many of us are unhappy with is indeed the fact that they aren't communicating well

and

that they aren't heeding the feedback given, especially when there are instances of constructive and helpful feedback.

Just because

I

suggested that I was

skeptical

of what amounts to

only an announcement

and not

information

does not mean my mind is closed off to the possibility that its an indication that things are going to change or improve after their Dev presentation at PAX. That is the

entire point of skepticism

, not that "they can't win" but more that we don't have the right kind of information to know yet. Hence "We'll see". I'm looking forward to seeing, I am, but I'm not going to get caught up in a hype train or build up

expectations

on what amounts to something we reasonably have no information on other than "This is a thing that is happening on this date".

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm saying Anet doesn't need your feedback before content is released.

Already answered this, but I guess it needs repeating: so they'd rather play damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether. Good to know

Do not equate Anet communicating more with players as an opportunity to play armchair game developer.

I guess it was these bad armchair game developers that made Rebound a better skill, than the planned one. They changed how Mordrem Snipers work due to feedback from the beta. There were guilds invited to try the previous Raids, and it's why those were better received than the last two that had no raid guilds testing them. There are lots of examples of changes that happened thanks to early access to content. It's a process every mmorpg out there uses to some extent, Arenanet is fixated on giving us previews a week before they go live, as if they are afraid of their work.

Don't be dishonest here ... Anet ALSO (by your OWN examples) gets player feedback and listens to it's players. NO one is arguing they shouldn't be doing that. It's about WHEN they should do that.

Which goes hand in hand with their communication. For example of they had communicated in advance about the new rune system (ui and ppl were allowed to see it and give feedback early in its development we wouldnt be playing catcjup to fix issues post release.

Again, you're not getting how this works. Sure if they HAD ... but they don't. Maybe instead of thinking it's wrong, you should ask yourself why it works the way it does.

This goes hand in hand with the point being made, doesn't it? By suggesting that players believe ANets communication practices to be...less than ideal it also means we're concerned as to

why

that is when they could change their approach, and there are

numerous

examples as to how that could benefit them in the future as it has for many others;

including

ANet in the past.

You've come into this discussion multiple times now under the presumption that there is some...unspoken hidden connotation or agenda behind the standpoint myself and others are taking, hurling accusations and fighting vehemently against said standpoint

despite

the fact that I have personally seen you give

similar

feedback and

similar

criticism towards ANet in the past (Berserker rework), as well as

recently

with the Legendary Upgrades.

Why are you so determined to hold the ground you're on when you have shown every reason to agree with the standpoint that you oppose? That is what confuses me at this moment.

I'm just going to ask you the same question as the other guy ... If the way Anet communicates is terrible, why do they do it? I see you acknowledged I asked the question ... you avoided trying to answer it.

Because ANet isn't infallible...it is entirely possible for them, as a company, to make mistakes even if they are prolonged. You've seen as much yourself, and voiced criticism of, in regards to their rework of Berserker in the past.

Why is this any different?

So Anet is terrible at communication but do it the way they do because they aren't infallible? You're going to need to explain yourself a little more than that. That's like saying they are bad because they aren't always good ... that's not really putting too much thinking into it now is it.

Not really asking you if they make mistakes ... I know they do, they even acknowledge it ... so if they are making mistakes communicating, why do they do it? I mean, we know Anet is willing to recognize their mistakes and this isn't the first time we've seen this complaint ... so what gives?

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

@Etria.3642 said:Well you can't blame them. It's like if I told my child a couple months before school is out that I will tell him where we'll be going for summer vacation in a month. When we go on a trip every single summer and in January I said we'd be going again. The boy would be like. Uhm. Why can't you tell me NOW?

Even if it was because I didn't KNOW right now then why tell him at all? To reassure him we are going?

Well, I can because basically, no matter what Anet does, they can't win so why should they try appease these kinds of frivolous complaints? Anet doesn't communicate ... they are terrible communicators. Anet does communicate ... it's just a big show and not 'real' communication.

People just aren't being honest here. It's not the communication that's the problem they have .. it's the idea that they don't think they are being listened to. Not sure why honesty is such a big barrier here.

Except they aren't frivolous complaints. I've played Guild Wars, since the first game, which is 14 years. I have never

once

been frivolous with my criticism of ANet, in fact I have been pretty faithful and supportive of ANet throughout said years, with tiny bouts of criticism that were resolved in

past years

and I've even defended some of their actions as well as the state of the game.

Yet recently I have not had similar faith in ANet, nor do I qualify this criticism as "frivolous". You consider myself and others to be unreasonable, that we are trying to be "arm chair devs" , that we aren't being honest when that is far from the case. In fact I think what many of us are unhappy with is indeed the fact that they aren't communicating well

and

that they aren't heeding the feedback given, especially when there are instances of constructive and helpful feedback.

Just because

I

suggested that I was

skeptical

of what amounts to

only an announcement

and not

information

does not mean my mind is closed off to the possibility that its an indication that things are going to change or improve after their Dev presentation at PAX. That is the

entire point of skepticism

, not that "they can't win" but more that we don't have the right kind of information to know yet. Hence "We'll see". I'm looking forward to seeing, I am, but I'm not going to get caught up in a hype train or build up

expectations

on what amounts to something we reasonably have no information on other than "This is a thing that is happening on this date".

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm saying Anet doesn't need your feedback before content is released.

Already answered this, but I guess it needs repeating: so they'd rather play damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether. Good to know

Do not equate Anet communicating more with players as an opportunity to play armchair game developer.

I guess it was these bad armchair game developers that made Rebound a better skill, than the planned one. They changed how Mordrem Snipers work due to feedback from the beta. There were guilds invited to try the previous Raids, and it's why those were better received than the last two that had no raid guilds testing them. There are lots of examples of changes that happened thanks to early access to content. It's a process every mmorpg out there uses to some extent, Arenanet is fixated on giving us previews a week before they go live, as if they are afraid of their work.

Don't be dishonest here ... Anet ALSO (by your OWN examples) gets player feedback and listens to it's players. NO one is arguing they shouldn't be doing that. It's about WHEN they should do that.

Which goes hand in hand with their communication. For example of they had communicated in advance about the new rune system (ui and ppl were allowed to see it and give feedback early in its development we wouldnt be playing catcjup to fix issues post release.

Again, you're not getting how this works. Sure if they HAD ... but they don't. Maybe instead of thinking it's wrong, you should ask yourself why it works the way it does.

This goes hand in hand with the point being made, doesn't it? By suggesting that players believe ANets communication practices to be...less than ideal it also means we're concerned as to

why

that is when they could change their approach, and there are

numerous

examples as to how that could benefit them in the future as it has for many others;

including

ANet in the past.

You've come into this discussion multiple times now under the presumption that there is some...unspoken hidden connotation or agenda behind the standpoint myself and others are taking, hurling accusations and fighting vehemently against said standpoint

despite

the fact that I have personally seen you give

similar

feedback and

similar

criticism towards ANet in the past (Berserker rework), as well as

recently

with the Legendary Upgrades.

Why are you so determined to hold the ground you're on when you have shown every reason to agree with the standpoint that you oppose? That is what confuses me at this moment.

I'm just going to ask you the same question as the other guy ... If the way Anet communicates is terrible, why do they do it? I see you acknowledged I asked the question ... you avoided trying to answer it.

Because ANet isn't infallible...it is entirely possible for them, as a company, to make mistakes even if they are prolonged. You've seen as much yourself, and voiced criticism of, in regards to their rework of Berserker in the past.

Why is this any different?

So Anet is terrible at communication but do it the way they do because they aren't infallible? You're going to need to explain yourself a little more than that. That's like saying they are bad because they aren't always good ... that's not really putting too much thinking into it now is it.

Are you asking me why I think they do it the way they do?

Or are you suggesting that they have very good reasons for doing it this way?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Of course, they have tried several different approaches.

AMAs, AFCs, RDCs, Dolyak Express, Guild Chat, Ready Up, CDI, etc., etc.
I'm not sure the laments about communication have ever been not present. Perhaps, some day, it will change and meet more players' expectations.

One never knows.

[zealex.9410]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Of course, they have tried several different approaches.

AMAs, AFCs, RDCs, Dolyak Express, Guild Chat, Ready Up, CDI, etc., etc.

I'm not sure the laments about communication have ever been not present. Perhaps, some day, it will change and meet more players' expectations.

One never knows.

And what were the downsides of the AMAs which had anet stop doing them?

[Obtena.7952]

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:I don't know if they have good reason or not. I'm speculating they don't bother with more communication because it's a no-win situation for them and it's an unmanageable process to get 'feedback' from hundreds of players that haven't experienced the content they are communicating to us

... but obviously those are reasons people don't accept as valid ... so again, why do you think they communicate so poorly with players? Their just THAT incompetent? I don't buy it.

Is there some unique element of this company/game that doesnt allow them to "win" if they change their aproach? Im asking because there are other games winning which do what we are asking here.

I don't know, but GW2 isn't losing now just because some people don't think they communicate enough either ... Maybe these people are looking for value Anet doesn't deliver ...

[Vayne.8563]

So people said there would be no info on the living world I said they were timing the announcement to do the most good. Turns out they had a reveal planned for Pax West Weekend in a Theater live. All the people saying they're silent because they're not answering you at the moment you want are forgetting stuff like marketing strategy. I have no real expectations about what they're going to say, but at least they have a good reason for not jumping the gun and revealing everything now.

[Vayne.8563]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Case in point: the announcement about the next week festival. Absolute minimum info they could give - they haven't even told us when it will end.

Anet has always been terrible at giving closing times on festivals. There are times it was left out of the announcement and patch notes altogether. They're better about it than they were years ago, but they really should including date range when they first announce the festival.

[Pifil.5193]

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:Of course, they have tried several different approaches.

AMAs, AFCs, RDCs, Dolyak Express, Guild Chat, Ready Up, CDI, etc., etc.

I'm not sure the laments about communication have ever been not present. Perhaps, some day, it will change and meet more players' expectations.

One never knows.

Based on past experience it does seem unlikely though.

I think they tried and ultimately abandoned all those initiatives because they're basically not willing to answer the questions that get asked the most; what's coming next and when will it be here? Whether people are taking about raids, WvW, sPvP, open world or whatever people want to know what's next and how long will it take.

That's what made Mike Zadorojny's "what's next" post so unique but some people thought it marked the start of a new era for ArenaNet, it didn't, it was a carefully thought through piece of damage mitigation. Exactly the right thing for the time but not the start of any new strategy.

[Vayne.8563]

@"lightinthedark.2596" said:I mean there is a difference between promising the earth and saying diddly squat. I don't know why they can't put out a common sense approach roadmap and let the playerbase know their plans. They have used the excuse before that, Oh we don't want to promise you guys too much incase stuff doesn't make the cut. But frankly, I'd prefer that than NOTHING. People are likely to be much more forgiving if Anet are honest and say well we tried to do this by a certain date but it's been delayed. Frankly, I have so little desire to log in these days because it "feels" like the game is going into limp mode.

Except that in this case they recently gave us a road map, what's coming up and that's not enough for players.

[zealex.9410]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"lightinthedark.2596" said:I mean there is a difference between promising the earth and saying diddly squat. I don't know why they can't put out a common sense approach roadmap and let the playerbase know their plans. They have used the excuse before that, Oh we don't want to promise you guys too much incase stuff doesn't make the cut. But frankly, I'd prefer that than NOTHING. People are likely to be much more forgiving if Anet are honest and say well we tried to do this by a certain date but it's been delayed. Frankly, I have so little desire to log in these days because it "feels" like the game is going into limp mode.

Except that in this case they recently gave us a road map, what's coming up and that's not enough for players.

The roadmap didnt really have content or detail on said content or any date on said stuff comming. Calling it a roadmap is a disservice to actual roadmaps. It was emergency dmg control.

[Vayne.8563]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:I'm wondering how it is known that feedback isn't parsed through and the Devs choose what they feel is best for the game as a whole?Or is it only what certain posters think is best?I don't know how many times the Devs have posted that they read/listen to the feedback here.

How you can they act on our feedback if they announce what's coming a week before it's released, with no other information, no streams to show it off, nothing.

Because they don't need your feedback to implement new features.

What kind of a messed up game doesn't need player feedback? I guess it's better for them to release something half-complete, get all the negative feedback afterwards and then act on it, after the backlash. Great for publicity and the image of the game and company. See what happened with the mount license. Had we known how they'd work Arenanet wouldn't be featured by youtubers as one of the terrible anti-consumer companies. Good development process, playing damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether.

They do get player feedback. We know there's an alpha testing server. We know certain guilds have tested stuff on them before. You think it's better to parse 50,000 people all saying contradictory things. You guys act like there's not feedback at all. They're not getting everyone's feedback but they definitely do get feedback.

[Vayne.8563]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"lightinthedark.2596" said:I mean there is a difference between promising the earth and saying diddly squat. I don't know why they can't put out a common sense approach roadmap and let the playerbase know their plans. They have used the excuse before that, Oh we don't want to promise you guys too much incase stuff doesn't make the cut. But frankly, I'd prefer that than NOTHING. People are likely to be much more forgiving if Anet are honest and say well we tried to do this by a certain date but it's been delayed. Frankly, I have so little desire to log in these days because it "feels" like the game is going into limp mode.

Except that in this case they recently gave us a road map, what's coming up and that's not enough for players.

The roadmap didnt really have content or detail on said content or any date on said stuff comming. Calling it a roadmap is a disservice to actual roadmaps. It was emergency dmg control.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"lightinthedark.2596" said:I mean there is a difference between promising the earth and saying diddly squat. I don't know why they can't put out a common sense approach roadmap and let the playerbase know their plans. They have used the excuse before that, Oh we don't want to promise you guys too much incase stuff doesn't make the cut. But frankly, I'd prefer that than NOTHING. People are likely to be much more forgiving if Anet are honest and say well we tried to do this by a certain date but it's been delayed. Frankly, I have so little desire to log in these days because it "feels" like the game is going into limp mode.

Except that in this case they recently gave us a road map, what's coming up and that's not enough for players.

The roadmap didnt really have content or detail on said content or any date on said stuff comming. Calling it a roadmap is a disservice to actual roadmaps. It was emergency dmg control.

It told us what was coming. The longer in advance something is the last detail is included since design could change as they try stuff. You guys want what? A detailed roadmap to exactly what's going to come out six months from now? Good luck with that.

As a writer who wrote professionally I could tell you that many times, stuff that I was going to write changed in the creative process, almost always for the better. I pitch ideas to publishers but publishers know those ideas change and they generally accept that. The public doesn't. Anet says something the community starts talking about broken promises, even when Anet says in their posts this is all subject to change. There is ZERO reason to give more detail before the stuff is closer to launch and they have those details more fixed.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Vayne.8563 said:We know there's an alpha testing server.

There is? How does someone get access to it?

[Trise.2865]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:We know there's an alpha testing server.

There is? How does someone get access to it?

Be an alpha tester.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

There was a time that ArenaNet recruited play-testers on the forums:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Interested-in-Local-Playtesting-for-ArenaNet

[zealex.9410]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:I'm wondering how it is known that feedback isn't parsed through and the Devs choose what they feel is best for the game as a whole?Or is it only what certain posters think is best?I don't know how many times the Devs have posted that they read/listen to the feedback here.

How you can they act on our feedback if they announce what's coming a week before it's released, with no other information, no streams to show it off, nothing.

Because they don't need your feedback to implement new features.

What kind of a messed up game doesn't need player feedback? I guess it's better for them to release something half-complete, get all the negative feedback afterwards and then act on it, after the backlash. Great for publicity and the image of the game and company. See what happened with the mount license. Had we known how they'd work Arenanet wouldn't be featured by youtubers as one of the terrible anti-consumer companies. Good development process, playing damage control instead of avoiding the damage altogether.

They do get player feedback. We know there's an alpha testing server. We know certain guilds have tested stuff on them before. You think it's better to parse 50,000 people all saying contradictory things. You guys act like there's not feedback at all. They're not getting everyone's feedback but they definitely do get feedback.

Small sample size to give feedback isnt always good.