Nerfing permastealth Backstab builds without kittening thief further

[Oogabooga.3812]

I’m okay with getting hit by a 1 shot build (great for laughs and YouTube videos), but what I am not okay with is one who just stalks in stealth after engaging in combat. You end up dodging at the 3 second mark to nothing and eventually dying when they see an opening.

So my suggestion instead is this: if any class is stealthed for more than 6 seconds after engaging in combat, the opponent restores "out of combat" status while the thief does not until a certain distance away.

[NuhDah.9812]

Just want to mention this, since I hear bp+hs is 12sec of stealth a lot, but no one is counting the 4-5 seconds it takes to do all of the 4 leaps through bp to achieve the 12 seconds, so in the end you're only left with around 7-8 seconds of stealth and 0 initiative to do something. Sure this is on a normal dp thief build, if you go SA that's another story.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@NuhDah.9812 said:Just want to mention this, since I hear bp+hs is 12sec of stealth a lot, but no one is counting the 4-5 seconds it takes to do all of the 4 leaps through bp to achieve the 12 seconds, so in the end you're only left with around 7-8 seconds of stealth and 0 initiative to do something. Sure this is on a normal dp thief build, if you go SA that's another story.

Yeah always noticed that to among other convenient facts that are purposefully left out in thief complaint threads. A example would be leaving out the cost of skills and rotations as if ini was infinite and not the thief's global skill resource. There's more but couldnt be bothered lol

[EvilSardine.9635]

I'm backstabbing players that have 2200 toughness for 16k. There's no counterplay to it. They die instantly.

If something has zero counter play and you can't even see the attack coming then it's terrible game design.

[Curennos.9307]

It's weird how backstab has long since fallen out of favor, damage wise, in spvp - but given wvw's plentiful bolsters and such, it can become too strong. Maybe anet can find a way to give it a diminishing return on power invested after a certain point? Having a different power scaling number depending on investment would let 'normal' thief builds retain their effectiveness, while toning back the damage you get from investing a heckton into it.

Also, changing traits to encourage dipping in and out of stealth instead of lingering in stealth (that one GM trait that returns ini every 3 sec should boost ini when you come OUT of stealth, and the boost lessens the longer you stayed in stealth).

Don't forget that assassin's signet is useful in pve dps, and that it's one of the few things keeping d/p workable in other scenarios (pretty sad that dp needs that much extra power to do more than tickle).

[kash.9213]

@Curennos.9307 said:It's weird how backstab has long since fallen out of favor, damage wise, in spvp - but given wvw's plentiful bolsters and such, it can become too strong. Maybe anet can find a way to give it a diminishing return on power invested after a certain point? Having a different power scaling number depending on investment would let 'normal' thief builds retain their effectiveness, while toning back the damage you get from investing a heckton into it.

Also, changing traits to encourage dipping in and out of stealth instead of lingering in stealth (that one GM trait that returns ini every 3 sec should boost ini when you come OUT of stealth, and the boost lessens the longer you stayed in stealth).

Don't forget that assassin's signet is useful in pve dps, and that it's one of the few things keeping d/p workable in other scenarios (pretty sad that dp needs that much extra power to do more than tickle).

It's not too strong wvw, everyone has the option to adjust their stats, but they want to be glass themselves. My toughness is probably near base but even 20-22k health and assuming someone always has you targeted helps you forget about backstabs being a thing.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

Thats because its completely false. A one shot thief DE at the time of its backstab can achieve the following stats:

3476 power (without might) and 260% critical damage. Couple that with 15% damage boost against marked targets, the 10% boost against targets above 50% (CS trait ferocious strikes), 5% given from scholar runes and you have more than enough burst damage to take out even tanky targets. You're claim that these builds can only oneshot pure glass is nonsense. Further more this build has 10 seconds of quickness after the backstab lands. So anything that survives the first hit will die in 0.2 seconds afterwards anyway.

Also not trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

You're ignoring the fact that marking someone is a dead giveaway that something really bad will happen. If you just stood there, you deserve to be one shotted. In my experience, most of my targets puts up a defense after being marked denying me that one shot MBS. I've also denied multiple one shot MBS with my Thief. So no, you're not convincing anyone.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

But humour me for a moment, what builds would suffer from my suggestion? Are you saying other thief builds would suffer because they can't stack 12 seconds of stealth? Or are you saying that the oneshot back stab stealth builds are fine and don't need balancing?

Due to this reason:

@NuhDah.9812 said:Just want to mention this, since I hear bp+hs is 12sec of stealth a lot, but no one is counting the 4-5 seconds it takes to do all of the 4 leaps through bp to achieve the 12 seconds, so in the end you're only left with around 7-8 seconds of stealth and 0 initiative to do something. Sure this is on a normal dp thief build, if you go SA that's another story.

Every builds.

[Doug.4930]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

But humour me for a moment, what builds would suffer from my suggestion? Are you saying other thief builds would suffer because they can't stack 12 seconds of stealth? Or are you saying that the oneshot back stab stealth builds are fine and don't need balancing?

Due to this reason:

@NuhDah.9812 said:Just want to mention this, since I hear bp+hs is 12sec of stealth a lot, but no one is counting the 4-5 seconds it takes to do all of the 4 leaps through bp to achieve the 12 seconds, so in the end you're only left with around 7-8 seconds of stealth and 0 initiative to do something. Sure this is on a normal dp thief build, if you go SA that's another story.

Every builds.

And I would argue that If thats the only stealth they could stack then it would be fine. But being able to stack that much stealth and still have cooldowns which further extend the stealth is a problem.

But In general I would seek to discourage builds that can approach in stealth and then one shot a target.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Buff dagger and pistol across all its skills so it's not just a daze/interrupt set tied to noodle damage. Than lower dps boost from back stab so it hits less burst dps

[UNOwen.7132]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

Thats because its completely false. A one shot thief DE at the time of its backstab can achieve the following stats:

3476 power (without might) and 260% critical damage. Couple that with 15% damage boost against marked targets, the 10% boost against targets above 50% (CS trait ferocious strikes), 5% given from scholar runes and you have more than enough burst damage to take out even tanky targets. You're claim that these builds can only oneshot pure glass is nonsense. Further more this build has 10 seconds of quickness after the backstab lands. So anything that survives the first hit will die in 0.2 seconds afterwards anyway.

Also not trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

You're ignoring the fact that marking someone is a dead giveaway that something really bad will happen. If you just stood there, you deserve to be one shotted. In my experience, most of my targets puts up a defense after being marked denying me that one shot MBS. I've also denied multiple one shot MBS with my Thief. So no, you're not convincing anyone.

The build uses quickness on mark. After being marked, the target has .125 seconds to react. The fastest recorded human reaction time is .12 seconds, and with the minimal .1 seconds of input and lag delay, that means it is literally impossible to react after being marked. You die before you even have the ability to press the button.

[Curennos.9307]

Does nobody keep their about-face button close at all times? Mashing that before the attack will have the backstab hit from the front, halfing its damage.

Edit: Removing the instant gap closer on Infiltrator's signet would be a good option, I think. I don't know if anyone actually uses that utility for anything else. That would force the use of a different utility and/or Shadowshot cancel to gapclose, which takes long enough that it would add some additional time to react.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

But humour me for a moment, what builds would suffer from my suggestion? Are you saying other thief builds would suffer because they can't stack 12 seconds of stealth? Or are you saying that the oneshot back stab stealth builds are fine and don't need balancing?

Due to this reason:

@NuhDah.9812 said:Just want to mention this, since I hear bp+hs is 12sec of stealth a lot, but no one is counting the 4-5 seconds it takes to do all of the 4 leaps through bp to achieve the 12 seconds, so in the end you're only left with around 7-8 seconds of stealth and 0 initiative to do something. Sure this is on a normal dp thief build, if you go SA that's another story.

Every builds.

And I would argue that If thats the only stealth they could stack then it would be fine. But being able to stack that much stealth and still have cooldowns which further extend the stealth is a problem.

But In general I would seek to discourage builds that can approach in stealth and then one shot a target.

Then the Dev has to give Thief reliable access to Protection, Stability, Resilience, Alacrity, and, most of all, Aegis. Not to mention, passive invulnerability. That way, we don't have to use stealth when approaching our target. The fact that Thief has limited to no access to these defensive skills, extended stealth is necessary for our survival.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Curennos.9307 said:Does nobody keep their about-face button close at all times? Mashing that before the attack will have the backstab hit from the front, halfing its damage.

Edit: Removing the instant gap closer on Infiltrator's signet would be a good option, I think. I don't know if anyone actually uses that utility for anything else. That would force the use of a different utility and/or Shadowshot cancel to gapclose, which takes long enough that it would add some additional time to react.

How does that help you, the whole issue with the build is that it kills out of stealth, and before you can do anything. Also, infiltrators signet is used for regular builds, while its not neccessary for the permastealth backstab oneshot (makes it harder, of course, but the build isnt good as is).

[Curennos.9307]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Does nobody keep their about-face button close at all times? Mashing that before the attack will have the backstab hit from the front, halfing its damage.

Edit: Removing the instant gap closer on Infiltrator's signet would be a good option, I think. I don't know if anyone actually uses that utility for anything else. That would force the use of a different utility and/or Shadowshot cancel to gapclose, which takes long enough that it would add some additional time to react.

How does that help you, the whole issue with the build is that it kills out of stealth, and before you can do anything. Also, infiltrators signet is used for regular builds, while its not neccessary for the permastealth backstab oneshot (makes it harder, of course, but the build isnt good as is).

DE loses steal and so needs a gap closer to land backstab. Shadow shot is workable but is slow enough that it can be messed with even if your opponent is jumping around randomly because they're bored - instana via infil signet fixes it.

Also, I really, really hate that signet. Give me an elite signet already.

I mean. Okay not 'needs', but, it would make things harder.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Does nobody keep their about-face button close at all times? Mashing that before the attack will have the backstab hit from the front, halfing its damage.

Edit: Removing the instant gap closer on Infiltrator's signet would be a good option, I think. I don't know if anyone actually uses that utility for anything else. That would force the use of a different utility and/or Shadowshot cancel to gapclose, which takes long enough that it would add some additional time to react.

How does that help you, the whole issue with the build is that it kills out of stealth, and before you can do anything. Also, infiltrators signet is used for regular builds, while its not neccessary for the permastealth backstab oneshot (makes it harder, of course, but the build isnt good as is).

Wait, you're in this thread saying that malicious backstab is a kill out of stealth, but in other threads you say death's judgement only hits a scourge with 2.4k armor for 12k and only if you go glass. Something tells me you're not being 100% honest in one of those threads, considering death's judgement and backstab do very similar damage.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Does nobody keep their about-face button close at all times? Mashing that before the attack will have the backstab hit from the front, halfing its damage.

Edit: Removing the instant gap closer on Infiltrator's signet would be a good option, I think. I don't know if anyone actually uses that utility for anything else. That would force the use of a different utility and/or Shadowshot cancel to gapclose, which takes long enough that it would add some additional time to react.

How does that help you, the whole issue with the build is that it kills out of stealth, and before you can do anything. Also, infiltrators signet is used for regular builds, while its not neccessary for the permastealth backstab oneshot (makes it harder, of course, but the build isnt good as is).

Wait, you're in this thread saying that malicious backstab is a kill out of stealth, but in other threads you say death's judgement only hits a scourge with 2.4k armor for 12k and only if you go glass. Something tells me you're not being 100% honest in one of those threads, considering death's judgement and backstab do very similar damage.

First, the malicious backstab oneshot builds hunts specifically glass. Not regular players. Its not a good build, just an insanely frustrating an anti-fun build. Second, it actually does more baseline damage, and thats what the oneshot build goes for.

[Calle.8746]

I would just like to see a fucking cast time on their steps like 0,5 second giving you atleast a chance to fucking dodge them. And a lower range on their shadowstep, it's far to easy for theives to jump in and disengage making you waste your cooldown and then just engage again. And whos fucking idea was it to give theives like 10 dodges? I mean fine give theives high damage or give them sick mobility or give them loads of dodges but don't fucking throw it all in there. Give em' High damage and Mobility, or High damage and dodges, or Mobility and Dodges. At the current state it's fucking ridicilous

[UNOwen.7132]

@Calle.8746 said:I would just like to see a kitten cast time on their steps like 0,5 second giving you atleast a chance to kitten dodge them. And a lower range on their shadowstep, it's far to easy for theives to jump in and disengage making you waste your cooldown and then just engage again. And whos kitten idea was it to give theives like 10 dodges? I mean fine give theives high damage or give them sick mobility or give them loads of dodges but don't kitten throw it all in there. Give em' High damage and Mobility, or High damage and dodges, or Mobility and Dodges. At the current state it's kitten ridicilous

Dodges are the thieves only defensive abilities. And its not even like theirs are particularly out of line. Their damage is also anything but high, so they rely on it even more. Same for the shadowsteps. If you were to reduce the range of shadowsteps, thieves would need big damage buffs.

[Calle.8746]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Calle.8746 said:I would just like to see a kitten cast time on their steps like 0,5 second giving you atleast a chance to kitten dodge them. And a lower range on their shadowstep, it's far to easy for theives to jump in and disengage making you waste your cooldown and then just engage again. And whos kitten idea was it to give theives like 10 dodges? I mean fine give theives high damage or give them sick mobility or give them loads of dodges but don't kitten throw it all in there. Give em' High damage and Mobility, or High damage and dodges, or Mobility and Dodges. At the current state it's kitten ridicilous

Dodges are the thieves only defensive abilities. And its not even like theirs are particularly out of line. Their damage is also anything but high, so they rely on it even more. Same for the shadowsteps. If you were to reduce the range of shadowsteps, thieves would need

big

damage buffs.

It's not neccesarly that it's out of hand (even though I do think they got a bit to many atm) but it's the combination of the 3; high damage, high mobility and loads of dodges; as I mentioned towards the end of ma post. Let them chose between 2 of the 3, not 3 of the 3.

[Doug.4930]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

But humour me for a moment, what builds would suffer from my suggestion? Are you saying other thief builds would suffer because they can't stack 12 seconds of stealth? Or are you saying that the oneshot back stab stealth builds are fine and don't need balancing?

Due to this reason:

@NuhDah.9812 said:Just want to mention this, since I hear bp+hs is 12sec of stealth a lot, but no one is counting the 4-5 seconds it takes to do all of the 4 leaps through bp to achieve the 12 seconds, so in the end you're only left with around 7-8 seconds of stealth and 0 initiative to do something. Sure this is on a normal dp thief build, if you go SA that's another story.

Every builds.

And I would argue that If thats the only stealth they could stack then it would be fine. But being able to stack that much stealth and still have cooldowns which further extend the stealth is a problem.

But In general I would seek to discourage builds that can approach in stealth and then one shot a target.

Then the Dev has to give Thief reliable access to Protection, Stability, Resilience, Alacrity, and, most of all, Aegis. Not to mention, passive invulnerability. That way, we don't have to use stealth when approaching our target. The fact that Thief has limited to no access to these defensive skills, extended stealth is necessary for our survival.

No it doesn't, It only needs these things if anet deleted stealth. Stealthing for longer than 6 seconds is overkill. There's more to playing thief than sitting in stealth for long durations. Thief doesn't need the abillity to approach unseen and hit 15k openers before the target can react.

I'm not trying to hate thief here. If you read my replies in the WvW marked thread you can see that I strongly advocate for the reveal mechanic to be completely reworked as 2 second stealth's followed by a 5 second reveal guts stealth builds completely. Its completely unfair.

But to say thief NEEDS to stealth for long durations like more than 7 seconds to be effective is a gross exaggeration.

[Curennos.9307]

Imagine if you were revealed proportionate to how long you had been stealthed.

Or put a cap on how much stealth you can stack at once.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Curennos.9307 said:Imagine if you were revealed proportionate to how long you had been stealthed.

Or put a cap on how much stealth you can stack at once.

The former seems like unnecessary extra steps. If you're being one-shotted by a permastealth DE, it doesn't matter if they're revealed for 3s or 30s afterwards, especially with SMeld. The latter... it really doesn't need to be stackable at all in most cases.For most encounters, decent thieves would just wait until the effect perfectly times out and then recast to chain it without being revealed for more than a fraction of a second/in the delay between stealth as the effect ending and the visual uncloaking of the character model. It's how D/D can be permastealthed if it has something to hit. Sure, it's still a nerf, but why extra complexity?

The Stealth effect just shouldn't be stackable. If a thief has perfect timing and initiative to burn (a ton more than it needs now) then it can try and chain its timeouts with its casts, and some initiative costs can be reduced a tad, like BP down to 4 init to make the initial stealth cheaper.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

limit number of stealth stacks via leaps thru smoke to 2. might be too brutal tho.

at the very least get rid of the garbage +70% / 105% damage de has with dagger and rifle stealth attacks. its disgusting that it is still in the game.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

But humour me for a moment, what builds would suffer from my suggestion? Are you saying other thief builds would suffer because they can't stack 12 seconds of stealth? Or are you saying that the oneshot back stab stealth builds are fine and don't need balancing?

Due to this reason:

@NuhDah.9812 said:Just want to mention this, since I hear bp+hs is 12sec of stealth a lot, but no one is counting the 4-5 seconds it takes to do all of the 4 leaps through bp to achieve the 12 seconds, so in the end you're only left with around 7-8 seconds of stealth and 0 initiative to do something. Sure this is on a normal dp thief build, if you go SA that's another story.

Every builds.

And I would argue that If thats the only stealth they could stack then it would be fine. But being able to stack that much stealth and still have cooldowns which further extend the stealth is a problem.

But In general I would seek to discourage builds that can approach in stealth and then one shot a target.

Then the Dev has to give Thief reliable access to Protection, Stability, Resilience, Alacrity, and, most of all, Aegis. Not to mention, passive invulnerability. That way, we don't have to use stealth when approaching our target. The fact that Thief has limited to no access to these defensive skills, extended stealth is necessary for our survival.

No it doesn't, It only needs these things if anet deleted stealth. Stealthing for longer than 6 seconds is overkill. There's more to playing thief than sitting in stealth for long durations. Thief doesn't need the abillity to approach unseen and hit 15k openers before the target can react.

I'm not trying to hate thief here. If you read my replies in the WvW marked thread you can see that I strongly advocate for the reveal mechanic to be completely reworked as 2 second stealth's followed by a 5 second reveal guts stealth builds completely. Its completely unfair.

But to say thief NEEDS to stealth for long durations like more than 7 seconds to be effective is a gross exaggeration.

The extended stealth is not the one doing all the one-shot-kills or dealing massive damage. You're proposing a solution to something else that is not even directly related to the problem presented here. Stealth is not used just for offensive positioning, rather it is the core defense mechanism of the Thief profession. Stealthing for longer than 6s or even 1hr is not overkill. Stealth does nothing to anyone other than the Thief and as someone has mentioned here, there is no interaction. Since that is the case, nerfing stealth is grossly inappropriate if the cause of the problem is MBS and DJ or other sources that boosts damage.

If the Thief can hit your for 15k, would it matter if the Thief is in stealth or not? I get hit for more than that by a Soulbeast. Ranger didn't even need stealth to deal that much damage. So the fact of the matter is, the damage is too much no matter what the profession, it's not about extended stealth. The fact that you're so focus on extended stealth tells me that your objective is not about balancing the damage, rather to nerf the Thief unnecessarily and using MBS and DJ as a vehicle to get there. That's so dishonest.

TL;DR:You want to nerf a defensive mechanic due to complainst about offensive mechanics, makes zero sense.