Upcoming Deadly Ambition Change, I don't think it's the change we need.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

It seems like you're not familiar with Mesmer Sword #3 -> Sword #2 combo.

Yeah, I guess not.

What were the cooldowns on those again?

First you ask if another exist, now that it does, you move the goal post talking about CDs. /smh

The amount of damage the skill deals is why they have longer CD. The damage of Thief Sword #2 is not even close compare to Mesmer Sword #2 if you're looking at DPS.

Heck even Guardian's Sword #2 deals more damage.

As fast or greater way, that was the details. goal post was same spot.

You didn't present a faster auto chain or greater way.

If that's what you're asking, then it's a dumb question. That's like asking if there's any other Thief, of course the answer is there isn't.

It is the Thief's mechanic to get in, deal damage, and get out better than other professions. The moment the profession cannot do that is the moment the profession dies.

But if you're looking for professions who can port in and burst, then there's plenty. You're just not looking hard enough.

EDIT: forgot "deal damage"

My question is why does it need the immobilze?

If you fail, you can spam try again.

That's the nature of having Initiatives and that's already there since day 1. The only reason it's an issue now is because of Panic Strike was updated with poison.

If they change Panic Strike as I suggested, there will be no more issue.

[Curennos.9307]

The issue with sword2 isn't just the engage - it's the disengage, both of which do not require LoS and both frolic around like they own the z-axis. I really don't care how many conditions condi thief pukes out (or doesn't).

Just look at d/p #3 skill. It's decent, but nowhere near overpowered, even if it basically lets the thief stick to any target they want - because it requires LoS and isn't an extremely low cost disengage to boot.

All Panic Strike does it make sword2's immob add poison damage about equivalent to a power thief's use of the same skill (or less, dpeending, which is pretty fair actually).

Mind, I'm not saying nuke sword2, or even slightly change sword 2 and do nothing else - but I would greatly prefer to see some reworks around the skill and compensation elsewhere. You could outright remove panic strike and it wouldn't change what's wrong with the setup.

[noot.8641]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

What ever point someone brings up, that it’s not n2 on sword, you still believing in ur head it is the n2..It clearly is the trait, and not s2.Stop trying to nerf shit that doesn’t need nerfs.From the moment that trait was introduced, there has been qq’s about condi.Clearly it’s the trait.

[saerni.2584]

@noot.8641 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

What ever point someone brings up, that it’s not n2 on sword, you still believing in ur head it is the n2..It clearly is the trait, and not s2.Stop trying to nerf kitten that doesn’t need nerfs.From the moment that trait was introduced, there has been qq’s about condi.Clearly it’s the trait.

Deadly Ambition made the build more viable. But the complaints are, if you look at them, actually all about the no LoS port and not about a few extra stacks of poison. The reason you don’t see the same complaints about power S/D is dislike for the condi damage type and that sword is harder to play as power (because the skills you need to land on power sword are more avoidable compared to condi—slower etc).

I’ll reiterate what I said above: changing Deadly Ambition will not actually address the complaints. People will see a few less stacks of poison, which won’t change the amount of damage they are taking significantly. If people were getting spiked down before they will continue to be spiked down. If people were dying to the Lotus dodge they will continue to die to the dodge.

To be clear, I’m not saying “don’t nerf this” because I’m worried about the impact on my build (not S/D). I’m saying don’t nerf this because it will literally cut the damage by 5% and do nothing about the actual reasons people are whining about it.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

It seems like you're not familiar with Mesmer Sword #3 -> Sword #2 combo.

Yeah, I guess not.

What were the cooldowns on those again?

First you ask if another exist, now that it does, you move the goal post talking about CDs. /smh

The amount of damage the skill deals is why they have longer CD. The damage of Thief Sword #2 is not even close compare to Mesmer Sword #2 if you're looking at DPS.

Heck even Guardian's Sword #2 deals more damage.

As fast or greater way, that was the details. goal post was same spot.

You didn't present a faster auto chain or greater way.

If that's what you're asking, then it's a dumb question. That's like asking if there's any other Thief, of course the answer is there isn't.

It is the Thief's mechanic to get in, deal damage, and get out better than other professions. The moment the profession cannot do that is the moment the profession dies.

But if you're looking for professions who can port in and burst, then there's plenty. You're just not looking hard enough.

EDIT: forgot "deal damage"

This^Nerfing s2 will hit power s/d which already was known as a good +1 build due in part because of the effectiveness of s2. S/d has only became a good 1v1 since the buff to the condi applications thief can apply using almost any of its weapons. Once condi gets toned down and it will than any nerfs to s/d would leave power builds not only not good for 1v1 but also less viable as a +1.S2 is and always has been fine. At most delete its ability to pass thru walls while still retaining it's verticality.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

It seems like you're not familiar with Mesmer Sword #3 -> Sword #2 combo.

Yeah, I guess not.

What were the cooldowns on those again?

First you ask if another exist, now that it does, you move the goal post talking about CDs. /smh

The amount of damage the skill deals is why they have longer CD. The damage of Thief Sword #2 is not even close compare to Mesmer Sword #2 if you're looking at DPS.

Heck even Guardian's Sword #2 deals more damage.

As fast or greater way, that was the details. goal post was same spot.

You didn't present a faster auto chain or greater way.

If that's what you're asking, then it's a dumb question. That's like asking if there's any other Thief, of course the answer is there isn't.

It is the Thief's mechanic to get in, deal damage, and get out better than other professions. The moment the profession cannot do that is the moment the profession dies.

But if you're looking for professions who can port in and burst, then there's plenty. You're just not looking hard enough.

EDIT: forgot "deal damage"

This^Nerfing s2 will hit power s/d which already was known as a good +1 build due in part because of the effectiveness of s2. S/d has only became a good 1v1 since the buff to the condi applications thief can apply using almost any of its weapons. Once condi gets toned down and it will than any nerfs to s/d would leave power builds not only not good for 1v1 but also less viable as a +1.S2 is and always has been fine. At most delete its ability to pass thru walls while still retaining it's verticality.

S2 is why condi sd works so well.

Boost in poison with no los.

Immobile so you can do a full steal and dodge burst.

Power SD thief have nearly perma swiftness and chaging it to cripple or chill would still reduce kiting for both build but allow a little more counter play.

It would also hit sd condi poison without hurting other condi builds that no one is complaining about.

Those other builds will have this shit trait, when they used to have trappers respite.

So to preserve a questionable bonus on s2, we are all willing to really hurt other condi builds.

Bros I gots news for yall, condi thieves are a historical part of the game going back to gw1.

Sir Vincent explained in another thread of how condi is the balance to power because it forces them to bring cleanse instead of MoAR dpS.

Condi s/d is one of the most degenerate builds in the game right now, and people have had the same complaint as to why evertime is rears its ugly head back up

That being said power sword could use some buffs, like beef up the auto chain and boost the damage on s2. Dagger 4 always seems to just fly anywhere it pleases instead of the target.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

The issue though is yes it hits s/d without hitting the condi build but thsts backwards as u want to hit condi without hitting other non condi s/d builds and panic strike and or even a small nerf to lotus would accomplish this far better. Power s/d thief build does not need a nerf of any kind and that's what u proposition does. Power s/d cant afford any nerfs.

[Alatar.7364]

Excuse my confusion, I got lost in what is going on, what is the change to S2 that would "nerf" both power and condi? Or is it even the topic people are arguing about?

PS: I would read up all those dozens of walls of text to find out on my own but I won't because its dozens of walls of text.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"Alatar.7364" said:Excuse my confusion, I got lost in what is going on, what is the change to S2 that would "nerf" both power and condi? Or is it even the topic people are arguing about?

PS: I would read up all those dozens of walls of text to find out on my own but I won't because its dozens of walls of text.

The op feels that condi builds are a problem due to s2 and its synergy with applying condi's and that the solution is removing s2 immobilize for another cc such as chill.I disagree as it would cause a very un needed nerf to power s/d builds.If s2 was nerfed via immobilization removal we would still see constant nerf condi thief due to the constant and numerous condi's thief would still be able to apply thru DA trait,panic strike and lotus training. I win alot of 1v1 on condi s/d thief and s2 most times is my gap and only use the recall if I need to but between DA, PS, LT, dagger toss utility, smoke screen and autos+s3 evades that's usually enough meaning s/d imobilize is used once. If u need to port in and out using s2 constantly to apply poisons to whitle the opponent down to win a fight than and its effective that means the condi's are to effective while the weapon set itself isn't or that playstyle wouldn't be needed.The only way to tone down condi builds is to tone down the root problem so either the condi's themselves or how many times they can be applied and how many stacks in a way that only effects condi builds. Anet is known to nerf problem builds all while doing it in a way that barely hits the problem build but also heavily hitting builds jot even in question and I feel needing s2 just accomplishes this very thing.

[Alatar.7364]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:Excuse my confusion, I got lost in what is going on, what is the change to S2 that would

"nerf"

both power and condi? Or is it even the topic people are arguing about?

PS: I would read up all those dozens of walls of text to find out on my own but I won't because its dozens of walls of text.

The op feels that condi builds are a problem due to s2 and its synergy with applying condi's and that the solution is removing s2 immobilize for another cc such as chill.I disagree as it would cause a very un needed nerf to power s/d builds.If s2 was nerfed via immobilization removal we would still see constant nerf condi thief due to the constant and numerous condi's thief would still be able to apply thru DA trait,panic strike and lotus training. I win alot of 1v1 on condi s/d thief and s2 most times is my gap and only use the recall if I need to but between DA, PS, LT, dagger toss utility, smoke screen and autos+s3 evades that's usually enough meaning s/d imobilize is used once. If u need to port in and out using s2 constantly to apply poisons to whitle the opponent down to win a fight than and its effective that means the condi's are to effective while the weapon set itself isn't or that playstyle wouldn't be needed.The only way to tone down condi builds is to tone down the root problem so either the condi's themselves or how many times they can be applied and how many stacks in a way that only effects condi builds. Anet is known to nerf problem builds all while doing it in a way that barely hits the problem build but also heavily hitting builds jot even in question and I feel needing s2 just accomplishes this very thing.

Oh well, I agree with the OP about removal of immobilize, if its swapped for Cripple + Slow it won't even be a nerf to Power S/D.What I agree with you (and others I guess) is that to address the condi there needs to be more adjustments to more things/skills/functions.

People say that removal of immob from S2 will hurt Power S/D so they want Panic Strike nerfed but that will hurt absolutely everyone, even the builds that don't exist yet (and never will if changed inappropriately) and builds that exist but are not meta.

Perhaps I have been wrong about my thought that nothing in DA should be touched in order to address Condi S/D, but I still firmly believe replacing S2 immob for Cripple + Slow will not nerf Power S/D while it will be one of the adjustments Condi S/D needs.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

So DA is changed in a way to synergize with PS and and lotus training to make for potent condi builds so the solution is to change a unrelated weapon skill that has been fine for yrs? Makes sense. Why not make adjustments to the actual traits that got changed thus causing the issues? That's my take other wise but I'm really not to effected by any change either so no biggy.

[Markri.9475]

@Alatar.7364 said:...Oh well, I agree with the OP about removal of immobilize, if its swapped for Cripple + Slow it won't even be a nerf to Power S/D....

As far as I know, for Power S/D the engage of S2 adds a poison that reduces healing, preventing sustain. removing this, would mean no access to poison outside of panicstrike at@50% with a 30sec CD.Poison is a good condi for power builds for the healing reduction.

[Alatar.7364]

@Markri.9475 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:...Oh well, I agree with the OP about removal of immobilize, if its swapped for Cripple + Slow it won't even be a nerf to Power S/D....

As far as I know, for Power S/D the engage of S2 adds a poison that reduces healing, preventing sustain. removing this, would mean no access to poison outside of panicstrike at@50% with a 30sec CD.Poison is a good condi for power builds for the healing reduction.

So is Slow for taking less dmg and having easier time avoiding dmg all together.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:S2 is and always has been fine. At most delete its ability to pass thru walls while still retaining it's verticality.

S2 doesn't allow to pass through walls. It just looks like it because the engagement range is 900 and the recall range is 1200. So if you move 300 after engaging from behind a wall, you're still in range for the recall. The shadowstep path has to be uninterrupted in order for it to work.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:S2 is why condi sd works so well.

That's because the implementation of poison in Panic Strike is out of whack. It should only apply poison once every 30s when your target fall below 50% health -- not on every application of immob.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:S2 is and always has been fine. At most

delete its ability to pass thru walls

while still retaining it's verticality.

S2 doesn't allow to pass through walls. It just looks like it because the engagement range is 900 and the recall range is 1200. So if you move 300 after engaging from behind a wall, you're still in range for the recall. The shadowstep path has to be uninterrupted in order for it to work.

Yeah u know what I meant lol

[Andy.5981]

You might want to take a look at the patch notes, because this isn't upcoming any more.

Late Notes: October 29, 201910/29/2019—October 29 Late NotesProfession SkillsThiefDeadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison have been decreased from 2 stacks to 1 stack in PvP only.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Andy.5981 said:You might want to take a look at the patch notes, because this isn't upcoming any more.

Late Notes: October 29, 201910/29/2019—October 29 Late NotesProfession SkillsThiefDeadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison have been decreased from 2 stacks to 1 stack in PvP only.

That's unfortunate. It's a knee jerk reaction that doesn't really address the problem. It seems to me that the current iteration of Panic Strike is really what they want.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Andy.5981 said:You might want to take a look at the patch notes, because this isn't upcoming any more.

Late Notes: October 29, 201910/29/2019—October 29 Late NotesProfession SkillsThiefDeadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison have been decreased from 2 stacks to 1 stack in PvP only.

That's unfortunate. It's a knee jerk reaction that doesn't really address the problem. It seems to me that the current iteration of Panic Strike is really what they want.

Well, they will still problems with the sd condi daredevil.

People will complain, and they will probably go after panic strike.

They won't roll back any nerfs either lol.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Andy.5981 said:You might want to take a look at the patch notes, because this isn't upcoming any more.

Late Notes: October 29, 201910/29/2019—October 29 Late NotesProfession SkillsThiefDeadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison have been decreased from 2 stacks to 1 stack in PvP only.

That's unfortunate. It's a knee jerk reaction that doesn't really address the problem. It seems to me that the current iteration of Panic Strike is really what they want.

Well, they will still problems with the sd condi daredevil.

People will complain, and they will probably go after panic strike.

They won't roll back any nerfs either lol.

Of course not.

[babazhook.6805]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Andy.5981 said:You might want to take a look at the patch notes, because this isn't upcoming any more.

Late Notes: October 29, 201910/29/2019—October 29 Late NotesProfession SkillsThiefDeadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison have been decreased from 2 stacks to 1 stack in PvP only.

That's unfortunate. It's a knee jerk reaction that doesn't really address the problem. It seems to me that the current iteration of Panic Strike is really what they want.

Well, they will still problems with the sd condi daredevil.

People will complain, and they will probably go after panic strike.

They won't roll back any nerfs either lol.

I think the changes will have a significant impact on s/d condi daredevil , not so much for the 1 less stack but due to that longer cooldown. Now while I do not PVP I think this has a bigger impact on p/d condi or d/d condi in that mode. I am not sure I would even take that trait anymore. 1 Poison stack every 10 seconds just does not cut it. Now there an add if potent poison used but you probably better off with a mug.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Andy.5981 said:You might want to take a look at the patch notes, because this isn't upcoming any more.

Late Notes: October 29, 201910/29/2019—October 29 Late NotesProfession SkillsThiefDeadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison have been decreased from 2 stacks to 1 stack in PvP only.

That's unfortunate. It's a knee jerk reaction that doesn't really address the problem. It seems to me that the current iteration of Panic Strike is really what they want.

Well, they will still problems with the sd condi daredevil.

People will complain, and they will probably go after panic strike.

They won't roll back any nerfs either lol.

I think the changes will have a significant impact on s/d condi daredevil , not so much for the 1 less stack but due to that longer cooldown. Now while I do not PVP I think this has a bigger impact on p/d condi or d/d condi in that mode. I am not sure I would even take that trait anymore. 1 Poison stack every 10 seconds just does not cut it. Now there an add if potent poison used but you probably better off with a mug.

back to mug being most viable lol. Soon back to core s/d being the only competitive build for another couple yrs.This is great :)

[ZDragon.3046]

This is probably anets short term solution to help dull it down a bit.There are probably more changes in the future, surely that immobilize trait will be included in the reduction of just how much damage can go out.

While i get that people are pointing at the immobilize proc being the problem you have to remember other sources of immobile have a bit more counter-play to them (projectile destruction/ reflect etc) and also removes and limits your own mobility to use them. Granted spamming immobilize should probably not be a thing in general.

I would like condi thief to be viable but not overly cheesy in any way.

I personally dont think the immobilize needs to be removed form sword 2Perhaps there is just a cd before you can port back or you cant port back should you miss your target with the initial strike of sword 2 (if you see it coming its not impossible to dodge it sometimes). Thus spamming it to go in and out becomes EXTRA punishing as you become locked in melee range should you happen to use it and miss.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Immobilize in Sword #2 was never a problem before any of the Elite Specs were added. Now that there are more tools to counter Immob (i.e. Resistance) suddenly it becomes a problem? This makes no sense.

[MeToLee.7164]

all classes have some crazy damage potential and protection I dont see them wanting their class nerfed. you guys are something else :+1: