Anyone else tried Sind's S/P build?

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Works against pepegas, clunky and nigh' useless against everything else.

EDIT: I suppose the playstyle just takes time getting used to. It's functionally quite different from anything else I've played.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Works against pepegas, clunky and nigh' useless against everything else.

I used a condi s/p dd build that was as effective for me as the s/d variant but haven't tried a power s/p build in a long while.One thing to keep in mind is who the player is using the build. Sind is a great thief player and I imagine he would be more successful on most builds than a lot of players would be. I imagine I wouldn't preform very well with it but then again I'm not a great thief player like those guys are.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

I haven't yet in WvW or PvP, but I have been running something very similar in PvE. Think I may try it out in competitive now. :)

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Works against pepegas, clunky and nigh' useless against everything else.

I used a condi s/p dd build that was as effective for me as the s/d variant but haven't tried a power s/p build in a long while.One thing to keep in mind is who the player is using the build. Sind is a great thief player and I imagine he would be more successful on most builds than a lot of players would be. I imagine I wouldn't preform very well with it but then again I'm not a great thief player like those guys are.

That was my impression on it. Generally speaking, it feels too one-dimensional for me; I like there to be multiple options for using in combat. The playstyle is too one-trick-pony for my liking.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

s/p was gutted when anet listed to qq and removed evade at moment of cast. imo they should bring that back and change stun to daze.

[kash.9213]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Works against pepegas, clunky and nigh' useless against everything else.

I used a condi s/p dd build that was as effective for me as the s/d variant but haven't tried a power s/p build in a long while.One thing to keep in mind is who the player is using the build. Sind is a great thief player and I imagine he would be more successful on most builds than a lot of players would be. I imagine I wouldn't preform very well with it but then again I'm not a great thief player like those guys are.

That was my impression on it. Generally speaking, it feels too one-dimensional for me; I like there to be multiple options for using in combat. The playstyle is too one-trick-pony for my liking.

I don't know how it scales in spvp but it has good cardio in radius in wvw. That makes it feel more forgiving if I'm trying to hold a circle or trying to dismantle a team comp a little when I start feeling pulls and stuff. I like Flanking Strike when I need to play Go Fish with boons, some squads have a good pace. You'd probably change kit and a trait or two depending on matchup.

[Sindrener.1592]

For me it fits for one simple reason, it allows me to 1v1 which i cant on S/D so in ranked it outperforms every thief build for me personally. Dont have to agree with me obviously.

Also can do everything else with it. +1/tf

More or less like this: i went 10-0 on placements to 1880 rating, every game i play i can swap my role depending on the outcome of the game, as sd/dp i rely on my team rotating/fighting correctly for me to be of use.

With sp i can do for example lets say my team is worse in teamfight ok well then i swap and go 1v1 on a side, i wont die to a +1 either and rn i seem to win all 1v1s in ranked (been successfull so far) yes its lots of pepegas but i couldnt beat pepegas as sd but now i can. That opens up a new dimension for me in order to carry games thats my 2cents.

If ur interested i can show some recordings

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

@bluri.2653 said:For me it fits for one simple reason, it allows me to 1v1 which i cant on S/D so in ranked it outperforms every thief build for me personally. Dont have to agree with me obviously.

Also can do everything else with it. +1/tf

More or less like this: i went 10-0 on placements to 1880 rating, every game i play i can swap my role depending on the outcome of the game, as sd/dp i rely on my team rotating/fighting correctly for me to be of use.

With sp i can do for example lets say my team is worse in teamfight ok well then i swap and go 1v1 on a side, i wont die to a +1 either and rn i seem to win all 1v1s in ranked (been successfull so far) yes its lots of pepegas but i couldnt beat pepegas as sd but now i can. That opens up a new dimension for me in order to carry games thats my 2cents.

If ur interested i can show some recordings

If you don't mind me asking, what traitlines are you generally running on your DD s/p build? Think I see DD, Tr, and Acro in the last video you posted, but would love it if you could confirm.

[Sindrener.1592]

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@"bluri.2653" said:For me it fits for one simple reason, it allows me to 1v1 which i cant on S/D so in ranked it outperforms every thief build for me personally. Dont have to agree with me obviously.

Also can do everything else with it. +1/tf

More or less like this: i went 10-0 on placements to 1880 rating, every game i play i can swap my role depending on the outcome of the game, as sd/dp i rely on my team rotating/fighting correctly for me to be of use.

With sp i can do for example lets say my team is worse in teamfight ok well then i swap and go 1v1 on a side, i wont die to a +1 either and rn i seem to win all 1v1s in ranked (been successfull so far) yes its lots of pepegas but i couldnt beat pepegas as sd but now i can. That opens up a new dimension for me in order to carry games thats my 2cents.

If ur interested i can show some recordings

If you don't mind me asking, what traitlines are you generally running on your DD s/p build? Think I see DD, Tr, and Acro in the last video you posted, but would love it if you could confirm.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

@bluri.2653 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@bluri.2653 said:For me it fits for one simple reason, it allows me to 1v1 which i cant on S/D so in ranked it outperforms every thief build for me personally. Dont have to agree with me obviously.

Also can do everything else with it. +1/tf

More or less like this: i went 10-0 on placements to 1880 rating, every game i play i can swap my role depending on the outcome of the game, as sd/dp i rely on my team rotating/fighting correctly for me to be of use.

With sp i can do for example lets say my team is worse in teamfight ok well then i swap and go 1v1 on a side, i wont die to a +1 either and rn i seem to win all 1v1s in ranked (been successfull so far) yes its lots of pepegas but i couldnt beat pepegas as sd but now i can. That opens up a new dimension for me in order to carry games thats my 2cents.

If ur interested i can show some recordings

If you don't mind me asking, what traitlines are you generally running on your DD s/p build? Think I see DD, Tr, and Acro in the last video you posted, but would love it if you could confirm.

Cool. Thanks man.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@bluri.2653 said:For me it fits for one simple reason, it allows me to 1v1 which i cant on S/D so in ranked it outperforms every thief build for me personally. Dont have to agree with me obviously.

Also can do everything else with it. +1/tf

More or less like this: i went 10-0 on placements to 1880 rating, every game i play i can swap my role depending on the outcome of the game, as sd/dp i rely on my team rotating/fighting correctly for me to be of use.

With sp i can do for example lets say my team is worse in teamfight ok well then i swap and go 1v1 on a side, i wont die to a +1 either and rn i seem to win all 1v1s in ranked (been successfull so far) yes its lots of pepegas but i couldnt beat pepegas as sd but now i can. That opens up a new dimension for me in order to carry games thats my 2cents.

If ur interested i can show some recordings

I wouldn't mind, if you wanna share.

[Sindrener.1592]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"bluri.2653" said:For me it fits for one simple reason, it allows me to 1v1 which i cant on S/D so in ranked it outperforms every thief build for me personally. Dont have to agree with me obviously.

Also can do everything else with it. +1/tf

More or less like this: i went 10-0 on placements to 1880 rating, every game i play i can swap my role depending on the outcome of the game, as sd/dp i rely on my team rotating/fighting correctly for me to be of use.

With sp i can do for example lets say my team is worse in teamfight ok well then i swap and go 1v1 on a side, i wont die to a +1 either and rn i seem to win all 1v1s in ranked (been successfull so far) yes its lots of pepegas but i couldnt beat pepegas as sd but now i can. That opens up a new dimension for me in order to carry games thats my 2cents.

If ur interested i can show some recordings

I wouldn't mind, if you wanna share.

1v1 vs holo, i'd say he's one of the better players still in the game in EU, played in mAT finals etc and after a mirage comes.

1v2 vs 1 shot mes + cthief s/d

vs spb also like mAT final player

I got a 1800 rated game uploading as well

So if it works this well against these players, I can basically perform well against 99% of the community with this build. Pretty much best thief build for me possible then

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Good play, such shame it relays so much on #3 though.. stun/huge dmg/evade all in 1 and can be used a lot

[Sindrener.1592]

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Good play, such shame it relays so much on #3 though.. stun/huge dmg/evade all in 1 and can be used a lot

Theres two simple reasons why I like S/P over S/D. You can mindgame with stowing #3 and you can interrupt with #4 - it adds complexity that S/D does not have.To pump damage on S/D you basically spam #3 as well with the occasion #5 with steal into #1

But yeah, as someone mentioned on my stream "who would have thought a spammable blurred frenzy is strong"I find it funny that people think this build is bad, after condi S/D nerf tomorrow this build will see even more play perhaps. And if they continue nerfing symbolbrand/weaver/rev this build will be in a even better spot where you can easily play mAT/AT's with it.

I'll be back MAYBE this mAT but most likely the january one if i find a team/players and maybe give this build a try - we'll see I am just so tired of playing S/D it is in my opinion a terribly boring build so its refreshing S/P can be played since this hasn't really been meta since early 2014 before PW got ini increase.

You can also play a few variants with S/P - infil sig/haste and even drop acro for DA if you feel like it

[foste.3098]

I used to play s/p with bound to gain access to stealth and tactical strike, makes it less of a one button build that way.A big downside to pistolwhip is that the evade is on a large delay behind the stun cast making it an unreliable evasion source again fast burst builds like fa ele or shatter mesmer since they ruin you hard if they know of this window, so much so that casting pw against them is certain death.Another softer counter are builds that have blind on skills with fast cast times because if they manage to blind the stun it is unlikely you will land much damage on them as by simply running through you they will dodge most damage.

What are your thought on s/p dead eye? De has better synergy with bqobk, the rifle trait gives you stealth (you obviously have to use the rifle as your 2nd weaponset), and malicious tactical strike can substitute daredevil's 3rd dodge if it connects with 5 malice.

[Sindrener.1592]

@foste.3098 said:I used to play s/p with bound to gain access to stealth and tactical strike, makes it less of a one button build that way.A big downside to pistolwhip is that the evade is on a large delay behind the stun cast making it an unreliable evasion source again fast burst builds like fa ele or shatter mesmer since they ruin you hard if they know of this window, so much so that casting pw against them is certain death.Another softer counter are builds that have blind on skills with fast cast times because if they manage to blind the stun it is unlikely you will land much damage on them as by simply running through you they will dodge most damage.

What are your thought on s/p dead eye? De has better synergy with bqobk, the rifle trait gives you stealth (you obviously have to use the rifle as your 2nd weaponset), and malicious tactical strike can substitute daredevil's 3rd dodge if it connects with 5 malice.

swipe has lower cd and is unblockable, this is what makes the 1v1's possible. you can't 1v1 a decent mes as DE either since no plasma so DE is straight out garbage compared to drd

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@foste.3098 said:I used to play s/p with bound to gain access to stealth and tactical strike, makes it less of a one button build that way.A big downside to pistolwhip is that the evade is on a large delay behind the stun cast making it an unreliable evasion source again fast burst builds like fa ele or shatter mesmer since they ruin you hard if they know of this window, so much so that casting pw against them is certain death.Another softer counter are builds that have blind on skills with fast cast times because if they manage to blind the stun it is unlikely you will land much damage on them as by simply running through you they will dodge most damage.

What are your thought on s/p dead eye? De has better synergy with bqobk, the rifle trait gives you stealth (you obviously have to use the rifle as your 2nd weaponset), and malicious tactical strike can substitute daredevil's 3rd dodge if it connects with 5 malice.

Tactical Strike isn't as important for pw as s/d as you'll be dazing them a lot with Steal. I'd much rather have the utility from Dash. Same goes the stealth option: in-combat, it isn't very important for this build as far as I can see (no pun intended).

[kash.9213]

@foste.3098 said:I used to play s/p with bound to gain access to stealth and tactical strike, makes it less of a one button build that way.A big downside to pistolwhip is that the evade is on a large delay behind the stun cast making it an unreliable evasion source again fast burst builds like fa ele or shatter mesmer since they ruin you hard if they know of this window, so much so that casting pw against them is certain death.Another softer counter are builds that have blind on skills with fast cast times because if they manage to blind the stun it is unlikely you will land much damage on them as by simply running through you they will dodge most damage.

What are your thought on s/p dead eye? De has better synergy with bqobk, the rifle trait gives you stealth (you obviously have to use the rifle as your 2nd weaponset), and malicious tactical strike can substitute daredevil's 3rd dodge if it connects with 5 malice.

That dead space is where you can mess with them maybe, ...

@bluri.2653 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Good play, such shame it relays so much on #3 though.. stun/huge dmg/evade all in 1 and can be used a lot

Theres two simple reasons why I like S/P over S/D.

You can mindgame with stowing #3 and you can interrupt with #4

- it adds complexity that S/D does not have.

... then, when you feel like they're apprehensive about wasting resource on a feign but at the same time not wanting to get interrupted or stopped and get opened up for 'spam' you can commit when all the modifiers and cooldowns are in you favor.

I like bound where I'm at, not sure you need it in spvp but you can stealth off target and mask a port to-> pw for reliable pw or Swipe and barrage them with a bunch of stops in row if you've modded interrupts.

S/P with DE feels like a bully build in WvW, I think babazhook and a few other thieves were on that for a while and I've been using it for a bit on DE and DrD. Again, it has good cardio within radius that lets you tap and feel another player or group out a bit with utility and stoppage. S/D can hang out a bit also but your survival is while you're being pushed or dragged while S/P feels more like actually fighting (not great at explaining that on).

[foste.3098]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Tactical Strike isn't as important for pw as s/d as you'll be dazing them a lot with Steal. I'd much rather have the utility from Dash. Same goes the stealth option: in-combat, it isn't very important for this build as far as I can see (no pun intended).

played s/p a bit more today, both with dash and bound and the thing that stands out to me is the sheer reliance on pistol whip when running dash; with bound you can tactical strike for a 2 sec daze which lets you get off a full aa safely which deals allot of damage, but this is impossible when using dash. Infact when on dash variant pistol whip is the only skill i ever used to deal damage which is not good since it is so slow and telegraphed that i think the only reason it works at all is because ppl are not used to seeing it.I found the added utility of dash somewhat mediocre given that withdraw and roll for ini both remove immobilize, while bound variant ended up much better for actually skirmishing, and made skills 1 and 5 usable making it more fun to play as i was no longer just mashing 1 button.I used to play s/p allot some time ago (~2 years ago) and i recall that it was a great snowball build for duels, in that if the person you are fighting is bad at managing defensive cooldowns or doesn't know the cast & evasion frames of pw you can sort of stand still and win the fight; but the massive downside of any s/p build that i ran was the fact it is a very stationary play style where you are always sluggishly chasing after players since s/p is easy to kite due to the self rooting (using infiltrators strike/return every time you want to whip starves you quickly).

Regardless of variances in traits and whatnot i am 100% certain that if enough players jump on this bandwagon after the next balance patch pw will get nerfed within 6 months. This is because the build falls in the same category as the now deleted chaotic interruption condi mirage, only reason why it wasn't played on mass being that players tend not to experiment and play with builds until they show up on meta battle's meta tab which only happens when someone runs a build in an at, but with the small population of players actually doing at's and even smaller number of those that bring in 'non meta' builds this is a slow process.

[Exitus.3297]

I've literally been using it occasionally in unranked as a joke ever since the most recent change to Swindler's Equilibrium (reduced the cooldown of the effect to 10 seconds and reduced the Steal recharge to 5 seconds), which was months ago. The only difference is that I used Bounding Dodger instead of Unhindered Combatant and grabbed Don't Stop in Acrobatics to compensate. Pairing UC with Acrobatics when Acrobatics already passively gives you Swiftness on Dodges and also has Don't Stop available just seemed like a waste to me. I felt like all I really got out of it was a slightly longer dodge at the cost of occasional Exhaustion. Also the Leap Finisher on Bounding Dodger felt like it synergized better with Black Powder as the build inherently lacked a Leap Finisher otherwise. Just my preference though.

Anyway, I figure 1 of 2 things is going to happen if Thieves jump on this bandwagon:

1) People are either going to learn how to counter it or specifically play builds meant to counter it. Take, for example (and this is just 1 example), Auramancer Tempest. Try as a Thief using Pistol Whip against anyone on a team who has Shocking Aura and see how far you get. People will also eventually figure out that the Pistol Whip is their only really source of burst damage, which despite its obnoxious evade during the attack, has a wind-up time and is easily predictable and locks them in place for the duration (basically anyone with Stability can just walk away from it casually).

2) People will complain and cry out for nerfs just because of how many Thieves jumped to the build at once and because of how frustrating it is to fight it. I can't tell you how many players I've come across who have complained about the build being braindead because of "Pistol Whip spam".

Knowing ANet, the likely outcome will eventually be 2. With ANet's track record, if/when it does get nerfed, they will likely overnerf it. I sincerely recommend to people that they start thinking of reasonable ways to make the build less spammy without going too overboard. Just my 2 cents.

[Straegen.2938]

50% of the thieves I run into in WvW are running this now. I am glad they didn't know about the build back in the day before they nerfed it because it was absurdly good then and marginal now.

[Sindrener.1592]

@"Exitus.3297" said:I've literally been using it occasionally in unranked as a joke ever since the most recent change to Swindler's Equilibrium (reduced the cooldown of the effect to 10 seconds and reduced the Steal recharge to 5 seconds), which was months ago. The only difference is that I used Bounding Dodger instead of Unhindered Combatant and grabbed Don't Stop in Acrobatics to compensate. Pairing UC with Acrobatics when Acrobatics already passively gives you Swiftness on Dodges and also has Don't Stop available just seemed like a waste to me. I felt like all I really got out of it was a slightly longer dodge at the cost of occasional Exhaustion. Also the Leap Finisher on Bounding Dodger felt like it synergized better with Black Powder as the build inherently lacked a Leap Finisher otherwise. Just my preference though.

Anyway, I figure 1 of 2 things is going to happen if Thieves jump on this bandwagon:

1) People are either going to learn how to counter it or specifically play builds meant to counter it. Take, for example (and this is just 1 example), Auramancer Tempest. Try as a Thief using Pistol Whip against anyone on a team who has Shocking Aura and see how far you get. People will also eventually figure out that the Pistol Whip is their only really source of burst damage, which despite its obnoxious evade during the attack, has a wind-up time and is easily predictable and locks them in place for the duration (basically anyone with Stability can just walk away from it casually).

2) People will complain and cry out for nerfs just because of how many Thieves jumped to the build at once and because of how frustrating it is to fight it. I can't tell you how many players I've come across who have complained about the build being braindead because of "Pistol Whip spam".

Knowing ANet, the likely outcome will eventually be 2. With ANet's track record, if/when it does get nerfed, they will likely overnerf it. I sincerely recommend to people that they start thinking of reasonable ways to make the build less spammy without going too overboard. Just my 2 cents.

I'm gonna explain to you why Dash > Bound with one word when it comes to high level PvP

ROTATIONS

Bound makes you slow to rotate and it is one of the biggest reasons why its bad in pvp. Bringing a tempest into ranked or at just for a pistolwhip thief means your team will get farmed, a short shocking aura isnt gonna break a pw thief lol. Also dash makes you take -10% damage, without dash you also have swiftness issues and have to swap rune, using #2 from sword or dodging isnt gonna give enough swiftness for you to rotate.

You mention people will know they have a windup, stationary etc etc. I have been streaming and i fight the same people in 1v1, the node isnt big enough to kite pistol whips constantly, then you mention stability. Why would you pistolwhip them with stab? You have swipe which is unblockable and traited its like 16-18sec CD not to mention you run Swindlers so you can essentially have "swipe" every what like 10 seconds? No stab in the world will be enough to hold a pw thief, eventually you run out and u cant do anything to the thief. I urge you to check the footage i linked and this is people who is considered top players both in ranked/tournaments. Not to mention you say "predictable" since it has a wind-up. You do know you can STOW the stun part and bait out CDs/dodges?

But my guess is that it will get nerfed yes

@Highlie.7641 said:Yes, this is one of the meme specs I used awhile ago.

You want to see rage:run bounding, bandits defense. and s.wire.

Trigger the kick by blocking, swipe + kick then sp3 (3 rupts') then either sp5 bound and TA or S.wire,(4th).your damage is from PI. it appears to be coming from sp3 though.

there are counters, but that won't stop the nerf requests. enjoy while you can

This build sounds straight up terrible in pvp

[babazhook.6805]

I used to run my s/p build in WvW almost identical to what SINds link details up until the release of DE. Since then I switched to DE. I just find it dishes out more damage overall.

I wanted all the quickness one can get as the more you have the better s/p functions.

[Jumpel.3972]

Nice build Sind, thanks for sharingI was always looking for good/viable s/p build since HoT.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Few weeks from now there's gonna be nerf pistol whip all over the forums lol