Pistol whip spam thieves

[Curennos.9307]

https://gyazo.com/2ea4457b79b03e4e5eebe7b8caffad16

https://gyazo.com/793538429d22b53326c357c7cdddbc52

Maybe someone can figure this out, but I think pistol whip is a good chunk of time longer than blurred (also let's be honest, blurred frenzy dmg has been nerfed to hell and probably shouldn't have gotten it so hard, but that aside)

Also - part of the prob with Pistol Whip will be solved when Anet removes the quickness on swap sigil. Quickness anything is a problem tho, that's not just pistol whip.

I could go for a small damage nerf, but could we please give Black Powder a bit of a radius buff?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@azzardome.9184 said:need to make swpie 200 range and infiltrators strike cost 10 iniative and infiltrators return stun for 2s. ez fix

Than after they should go to the class or classes u play and reduce damage of all skills 300% and increase all skill cd's to 2 mins.Ez fix :)

[Psycoprophet.8107]

If pw gets a nerf than the rest of the kits gonna need love cuz its literally the only damage skill on whole kit so....

[azzardome.9184]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@azzardome.9184 said:need to make swpie 200 range and infiltrators strike cost 10 iniative and infiltrators return stun for 2s. ez fix

Than after they should go to the class or classes u play and reduce damage of all skills 300% and increase all skill cd's to 2 mins.Ez fix :)

i dont think its possible to nerf chrono more but ey you never know. oh and it was a jk sir, in case you did not notice.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@azzardome.9184 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@azzardome.9184 said:need to make swpie 200 range and infiltrators strike cost 10 iniative and infiltrators return stun for 2s. ez fix

Than after they should go to the class or classes u play and reduce damage of all skills 300% and increase all skill cd's to 2 mins.Ez fix :)

i dont think its possible to nerf chrono more but ey you never know. oh and it was a jk sir, in case you did not notice.

My apologies as u never kno around these parts. As nerfed as chrono may be I'm sure some formumer's in these boards could come up with more ways to ruin chrono as it seems to be their speciality.

[Shao.7236]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@xardan.2874 said:Also Anet should make pistolwhip cost initiative at the start of the cast. This stowing is dishonest gameplay.Remember stowing sword2 on mesmer and how quickly it got fixed after Helseth made guide showing it? But thiefs skills abusing same things are totally fine and balanced :)Ok, i see, i see.

Because blurred frenzy had no wind up and was an evade all the time, stowing the stun part of pistolwhip is like stowing any weapon skill which add mindgames and complexity. The cast of the stun is not an evade fyi

Some of u should not be near any balance discussions whatsoever

I'm super glad that the balance team doesn't just use forum opinion as a balancing compass sometimes, at least not without aggregating it and examining its potential first.People would have nerfed the fun out of this game then quit from boredom long ago.

@Dantheman.3589 said:Actually I’d like to point u can jump right when animation starts hence canceling but it does first strike which is a stun and probably an evade also

If thats true:

its a bug and needs to be fixed so it costs initiative if you do an effect with the skill.it should only be a stun. the evade is not applied until after that animation follows through.

It definitely stuns I know that and if you are in a situation where u can actually do this to interrupt hence activating unblockable damage from pulmonary impact it is absolutely toxic and broken. Granted I barely ever see ppl do this unlike staff 3 that was literally abused non stop. It’s totally worthy of a hot fix in that regard imo and maybe pistol whip in general could get a nerf, though I do think the acro+DrD build isn’t a problem just the mechanics overall that aren’t fun to play against.

The real fix that needs to be done is not proc the flurry if the first attack misses. That's about it.

I would say to reduce the evade to the same amount of other weapons while increasing the flurry speed more reasonably to the same duration of the stun.

Not to add among other suggestions is to add a telling to the status bar like mesmer sword 2 so people with garbage tier connection aren't doomed to die with all the evade spam they already have to face.

The take is the amount of evades that can be connected to just delay the inevitable loss fight of the thief to disengage is an annoying waste of time for everyone that display the lack of risk reward to the arsenal already available when any sort of evade provides cleansing alone combined with all the Vigor and Swiftness.

[Curennos.9307]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@xardan.2874 said:Also Anet should make pistolwhip cost initiative at the start of the cast. This stowing is dishonest gameplay.Remember stowing sword2 on mesmer and how quickly it got fixed after Helseth made guide showing it? But thiefs skills abusing same things are totally fine and balanced :)Ok, i see, i see.

Because blurred frenzy had no wind up and was an evade all the time, stowing the stun part of pistolwhip is like stowing any weapon skill which add mindgames and complexity. The cast of the stun is not an evade fyi

Some of u should not be near any balance discussions whatsoever

I'm super glad that the balance team doesn't just use forum opinion as a balancing compass sometimes, at least not without aggregating it and examining its potential first.People would have nerfed the fun out of this game then quit from boredom long ago.

@Dantheman.3589 said:Actually I’d like to point u can jump right when animation starts hence canceling but it does first strike which is a stun and probably an evade also

If thats true:

its a bug and needs to be fixed so it costs initiative if you do an effect with the skill.it should only be a stun. the evade is not applied until after that animation follows through.

It definitely stuns I know that and if you are in a situation where u can actually do this to interrupt hence activating unblockable damage from pulmonary impact it is absolutely toxic and broken. Granted I barely ever see ppl do this unlike staff 3 that was literally abused non stop. It’s totally worthy of a hot fix in that regard imo and maybe pistol whip in general could get a nerf, though I do think the acro+DrD build isn’t a problem just the mechanics overall that aren’t fun to play against.

The real fix that needs to be done is not proc the flurry if the first attack misses. That's about it.

I would say to reduce the evade to the same amount of other weapons while increasing the flurry speed more reasonably to the same duration of the stun.

Not to add among other suggestions is to add a telling to the status bar like mesmer sword 2 so people with garbage tier connection aren't doomed to die with all the evade spam they already have to face.

The take is the amount of evades that can be connected to just delay the inevitable loss fight of the thief to disengage is an annoying waste of time for everyone that display the lack of risk reward to the arsenal already available when any sort of evade provides cleansing alone combined with all the Vigor and Swiftness.

I'm game for an icon thingy in the status bar, though people with garbage tier connection proooobably aren't a good baseline to balance pvp around. At the very least, it'd make people aware of the vuln points of the skill.

On the other hand, cramming the skill's current damage into .75 seconds would be absolute madness. Then you could adjust the damage, yes, but then the weapon would have zero capacity to kill anyone.

The skill's current design punishes people appropriately for failing to deal with the skill properly, is forgiving (you're not stunned for the entire duration of the dmg so you can still get out of it near the end), keeps the thief from imploding, and is punishable.

People rarely, if ever, complained about Pistol Whip until recently. The skill hasn't seen any changes while the rest of thief has - and suddenly it's pistol whip that's the problem? Not buying it.

Could also just change the stun to an immob. It'd retain functionality (locking someone into some of the skill's damage), but lose the dmg proc on interrupt.

[Sikieiki.7403]

ΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞ

[Shao.7236]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@xardan.2874 said:Also Anet should make pistolwhip cost initiative at the start of the cast. This stowing is dishonest gameplay.Remember stowing sword2 on mesmer and how quickly it got fixed after Helseth made guide showing it? But thiefs skills abusing same things are totally fine and balanced :)Ok, i see, i see.

Because blurred frenzy had no wind up and was an evade all the time, stowing the stun part of pistolwhip is like stowing any weapon skill which add mindgames and complexity. The cast of the stun is not an evade fyi

Some of u should not be near any balance discussions whatsoever

I'm super glad that the balance team doesn't just use forum opinion as a balancing compass sometimes, at least not without aggregating it and examining its potential first.People would have nerfed the fun out of this game then quit from boredom long ago.

@Dantheman.3589 said:Actually I’d like to point u can jump right when animation starts hence canceling but it does first strike which is a stun and probably an evade also

If thats true:

its a bug and needs to be fixed so it costs initiative if you do an effect with the skill.it should only be a stun. the evade is not applied until after that animation follows through.

It definitely stuns I know that and if you are in a situation where u can actually do this to interrupt hence activating unblockable damage from pulmonary impact it is absolutely toxic and broken. Granted I barely ever see ppl do this unlike staff 3 that was literally abused non stop. It’s totally worthy of a hot fix in that regard imo and maybe pistol whip in general could get a nerf, though I do think the acro+DrD build isn’t a problem just the mechanics overall that aren’t fun to play against.

The real fix that needs to be done is not proc the flurry if the first attack misses. That's about it.

I would say to reduce the evade to the same amount of other weapons while increasing the flurry speed more reasonably to the same duration of the stun.

Not to add among other suggestions is to add a telling to the status bar like mesmer sword 2 so people with garbage tier connection aren't doomed to die with all the evade spam they already have to face.

The take is the amount of evades that can be connected to just delay the inevitable loss fight of the thief to disengage is an annoying waste of time for everyone that display the lack of risk reward to the arsenal already available when any sort of evade provides cleansing alone combined with all the Vigor and Swiftness.

I'm game for an icon thingy in the status bar, though people with garbage tier connection proooobably aren't a good baseline to balance pvp around. At the very least, it'd make people aware of the vuln points of the skill.

On the other hand, cramming the skill's current damage into .75 seconds would be absolute madness. Then you could adjust the damage, yes, but then the weapon would have zero capacity to kill anyone.

The skill's current design punishes people appropriately for failing to deal with the skill properly, is forgiving (you're not stunned for the entire duration of the dmg so you can still get out of it near the end), keeps the thief from imploding, and is punishable.

People rarely, if ever, complained about Pistol Whip until recently. The skill hasn't seen any changes while the rest of thief has - and suddenly it's pistol whip that's the problem? Not buying it.

Could also just change the stun to an immob. It'd retain functionality (locking someone into some of the skill's damage), but lose the dmg proc on interrupt.

You can't punish a P/W Thief that you avoid because they can chain evades anyway and because this evade takes forever regardless, it means for time for them to regenerate Initiative overtime, Endurance with Vigor and possibility to cleanse 2 times in a row whether it's your teammates or just unavoidable AoE's attempting to hit.

Whether you do the right thing or not to P/W Thief, it takes forever and they are always rewarded to the mere action of "evading" anything at all. There is no risk playing the build, none at all and given all the utility that I would put out there but there's just so much to cover, the latter I mentioned is the most overwhelming one.

You can tell people to time everything at frame perfection, that still doesn't change the fact of how annoying and unfun it is, especially for professions that don't have any instant casts to nail to frame perfect stuns through all the evade spam that makes fights last for hours.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@Shao.7236 said:The real fix that needs to be done is not proc the flurry if the first attack misses. That's about it.

One problem with that is that the evading flurry actually gives the Thief some ranged defense. If I see a Ranger start Rapid Fire from a distance, I can sit on point and Pistol Whip the air to avoid most of the damage. It also allows me to defend against Stealthed Thieves and Mesmers... granted, it's a random defense (not knowing when they will strike), but it is much better than wasting dodges... and I may get lucky and interrupt their attack.

Besides, getting rid of the rooted flurry on miss could actually make less experienced Sword/Pistol Thieves(like me) more effective... because we won't get locked into a couple of seconds of whiffing at air (forgetting to stow) letting the target run further away unharmed. Alas, the Thief is not made for rooted skills.

@Curennos.9307 said:Could also just change the stun to an immob. It'd retain functionality (locking someone into some of the skill's damage), but lose the dmg proc on interrupt.

I can actually see more complaints about Panic Strike poisoning because of that. Pistol Whip's Immobilize would be able to stack with Infiltrator's Strike, making it longer. And it would also make Pistol Whip much less effective against other Daredevil/Acrobatics Thieves, as they would just dash right out of it or perform a Pistol Whip/evading skill themselves. Why can't anything be simple?

I don't even buy that Pistol Whip is a problem as it is now. Compared to other professions' offensive/defensive abilities, it's not overpowered, and it actually allows a Thief to fight and survive on point to a degree. That's not a bad thing. Pulmonary Impact isn't so strong, and definitely isn't as unfair mechanically as something like Retaliation.

Others in this thread are blowing Pistol Whip way out of proportion. Yes, it allows a Thief to do damage while avoiding damage. A Thief is naturally squishy... if you take away the evades, you would need to compensate for that in some other manner... such as granting 5 seconds of Aegis and Protection on each dodge-roll. Thieves avoid dying by avoiding getting hit altogether because they are squishy... other professions can mitigate damage and survive hits through other mechanics. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. It all balances out in the end.

[Curennos.9307]

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Shao.7236 said:The real fix that needs to be done is not proc the flurry if the first attack misses. That's about it.

One problem with that is that the evading flurry actually gives the Thief some ranged defense. If I see a Ranger start Rapid Fire from a distance, I can sit on point and Pistol Whip the air to avoid most of the damage. It also allows me to defend against Stealthed Thieves and Mesmers... granted, it's a random defense (not knowing when they will strike), but it is much better than wasting dodges... and I may get lucky and interrupt their attack.

Besides, getting rid of the rooted flurry on miss could actually make less experienced Sword/Pistol Thieves(like me) more effective... because we won't get locked into a couple of seconds of whiffing at air (forgetting to stow) letting the target run further away unharmed. Alas, the Thief is not made for rooted skills.

@Curennos.9307 said:Could also just change the stun to an immob. It'd retain functionality (locking someone into some of the skill's damage), but lose the dmg proc on interrupt.

I can actually see more complaints about Panic Strike poisoning because of that. Pistol Whip's Immobilize would be able to stack with Infiltrator's Strike, making it longer. And it would also make Pistol Whip much less effective against other Daredevil/Acrobatics Thieves, as they would just dash right out of it or perform a Pistol Whip/evading skill themselves. Why can't anything be simple?

I don't even buy that Pistol Whip is a problem as it is now. Compared to other professions' offensive/defensive abilities, it's not overpowered, and it actually allows a Thief to fight and survive on point to a degree. That's not a bad thing. Pulmonary Impact isn't so strong, and definitely isn't as unfair mechanically as something like Retaliation.

Others in this thread are blowing Pistol Whip way out of proportion. Yes, it allows a Thief to do damage while avoiding damage. A Thief is naturally squishy... if you take away the evades, you would need to compensate for that in some other manner... such as granting 5 seconds of Aegis and Protection on each dodge-roll. Thieves avoid dying by avoiding getting hit altogether because they are squishy... other professions can mitigate damage and survive hits through other mechanics. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. It all balances out in the end.

Infiltrator's Strike immob is mostly over by the time pistol whip lands - I doubt adding another .75 immob would do anything. Even if it does end up with...what, an extra .25 sec of immob, that's small change and can be written off as compensation for the switch. And, this is my personal opinion but I wouldn't mind that vs thieves, either. They'll neuter their endurance regen constantly and then just die (speaking as a DE swordpistol/rifle).

The extra poison will make a negligible difference on a power build, and if a condi build wants sword-pistol, well they're welcome to it. Condi thieves are already severely lacking.

That aside, don't get me wrong - I think the complaints are bogus. Pistol Whip getting zero changes and suddenly it's a problem after a well known streamer starts to use it? Yeah, right. Especially when most complains boil down to 'the thief doesn't die fast enough for my taste' or 'I can't be bothered to pay attention'.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Shao.7236 said:The real fix that needs to be done is not proc the flurry if the first attack misses. That's about it.

One problem with that is that the evading flurry actually gives the Thief some ranged defense. If I see a Ranger start Rapid Fire from a distance, I can sit on point and Pistol Whip the air to avoid most of the damage. It also allows me to defend against Stealthed Thieves and Mesmers... granted, it's a random defense (not knowing when they will strike), but it is much better than wasting dodges... and I may get lucky and interrupt their attack.

Besides, getting rid of the rooted flurry on miss could actually make less experienced Sword/Pistol Thieves(like me) more effective... because we won't get locked into a couple of seconds of whiffing at air (forgetting to stow) letting the target run further away unharmed. Alas, the Thief is not made for rooted skills.

@Curennos.9307 said:Could also just change the stun to an immob. It'd retain functionality (locking someone into some of the skill's damage), but lose the dmg proc on interrupt.

I can actually see more complaints about Panic Strike poisoning because of that. Pistol Whip's Immobilize would be able to stack with Infiltrator's Strike, making it longer. And it would also make Pistol Whip much less effective against other Daredevil/Acrobatics Thieves, as they would just dash right out of it or perform a Pistol Whip/evading skill themselves. Why can't anything be simple?

I don't even buy that Pistol Whip is a problem as it is now. Compared to other professions' offensive/defensive abilities, it's not overpowered, and it actually allows a Thief to fight and survive on point to a degree. That's not a bad thing. Pulmonary Impact isn't so strong, and definitely isn't as unfair mechanically as something like Retaliation.

Others in this thread are blowing Pistol Whip way out of proportion. Yes, it allows a Thief to do damage while avoiding damage. A Thief is naturally squishy... if you take away the evades, you would need to compensate for that in some other manner... such as granting 5 seconds of Aegis and Protection on each dodge-roll. Thieves avoid dying by avoiding getting hit altogether because they are squishy... other professions can mitigate damage and survive hits through other mechanics. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. It all balances out in the end.

Infiltrator's Strike immob is mostly over by the time pistol whip lands - I doubt adding another .75 immob would do anything. Even if it does end up with...what, an extra .25 sec of immob, that's small change and can be written off as compensation for the switch. And, this is my personal opinion but I wouldn't mind that vs thieves, either. They'll neuter their endurance regen constantly and then just die (speaking as a DE swordpistol/rifle).

The extra poison will make a negligible difference on a power build, and if a condi build wants sword-pistol, well they're welcome to it. Condi thieves are already severely lacking.

That aside, don't get me wrong - I think the complaints are bogus. Pistol Whip getting zero changes and suddenly it's a problem after a well known streamer starts to use it? Yeah, right. Especially when most complains boil down to 'the thief doesn't die fast enough for my taste' or 'I can't be bothered to pay attention'.

I think it's quite telling when pistol whip's the most complained mechanic right now. People really, really don't have the timing aspect down in this game. Too much spam getting to them, so they're having issues when a build that relies on timing intercepts their factory line of play.

[Shao.7236]

@Kageseigi.2150There's no risk otherwise, I know people like to be strong, but in a competitive game it would be nice that what people play have some compromise over the other choices that they have, rather than just get everything. Daredevil alone is 3 evades that should be enough to deal with such weakness, given that other weapon evades don't even have that much uptime nor mobility without sword.

@Curennos.9307 Sind is getting so much credit for nothing, many people have played this kind of build before. I have in about 5 variations while I was exploring Daredevil years back, I had my blast but it still didn't change the fact that it was as cringe as it still is. Making a Thief build in PvP isn't hard when the skills are the same 80% of the time in every builds there is.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Shao.7236 said:@Kageseigi.2150There's no risk otherwise, I know people like to be strong, but in a competitive game it would be nice that what people play have some compromise over the other choices that they have, rather than just get everything. Daredevil alone is 3 evades that should be enough to deal with such weakness, given that other weapon evades don't even have that much uptime nor mobility without sword.

@"Curennos.9307" Sind is getting so much credit for nothing, many people have played this kind of build before. I have in about 5 variations while I was exploring Daredevil years back, I had my blast but it still didn't change the fact that it was as cringe as it still is. Making a Thief build in PvP isn't hard when the skills are the same 80% of the time in every builds there is.

Thief having everything, ha ha ha har har har. Gosh, casters tend to be so biased in here. Thief utilities tend to be hot garbage, so it's not really surprising that there's a few staples across builds.

"Daredevil alone is 3 evades" - and a 600 range steal, the tradeoff is apt. "Should be enough" - speaking about a class whose entire lifeline is dependant on dodging, not sustaining.

[Shao.7236]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Thief having everything, ha ha ha har har har. Gosh, casters tend to be so biased in here. Thief utilities tend to be hot garbage, so it's not really surprising that there's a few staples across builds.

Nah, it's like Shortbow. People feel like it's mandatory to have anything because that's all they can think of using in practice and Infiltrators Arrow is overused.

The way the class works allow for weapon camping anyway so why care to have two different approaches when one weapon does it all.

Yes Thieves can have everything in one package;

• Mobility
• Cleanses
• Avoidance
• Boon Hate
• CC
• Unblockables

Did I forget tanky? Why would you want to be tanky when you don't even have to get hit. That's one thing Anet at least got right in this mess. Now they need to balance the risk reward and trade offs, that's slowly being done.

People wishing for Swipe to go away clearly don't care for balance at all. However nobody whined at Engineers losing their F5 on elites. It just smells hypocrisy.

I would love to have True Nature on Core Rev sometimes but it ain't happening, I'm not gonna complain about it because Anet made the right choice from the start rather than later, I adapted and became better with my given options which now I prefer having over the latter.

[Curennos.9307]

@Shao.7236 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Thief having everything, ha ha ha har har har. Gosh, casters tend to be so biased in here. Thief utilities tend to be hot garbage, so it's not really surprising that there's a few staples across builds.

Nah, it's like Shortbow. People feel like it's mandatory to have anything because that's all they can think of using in practice and Infiltrators Arrow is overused.

The way the class works allow for weapon camping anyway so why care to have two different approaches when one weapon does it all.

Yes Thieves can have everything in one package;

• Mobility
• Cleanses
• Avoidance
• Boon Hate
• CC
• Unblockables

Did I forget tanky? Why would you want to be tanky when you don't even have to get hit. That's one thing Anet at least got right in this mess. Now they need to balance the risk reward and trade offs, that's slowly being done.

People wishing for Swipe to go away clearly don't care for balance at all. However nobody whined at Engineers losing their F5 on elites. It just smells hypocrisy.

I would love to have True Nature on Core Rev sometimes but it ain't happening, I'm not gonna complain about it because Anet made the right choice from the start rather than later, I adapted and became better with my given options which now I prefer having over the latter.

So...Thieves doooo somewhat look like they have a lot. It's true. Not denying that in some cases.

On the other hand, important to remember that1) They still have the weapon swap cooldown which hinders them so much more than other classes/don't get the same benefit2) Initiative. They have stuff. They can't only use one stuff at a time. Compounded by wep swap.

Also important to consider thief has that others don't, considering...that's kind of how classes are defined, to a certain extent, yes? Your list is not only far from 'everything', but terribly lacking. I mean, you could easily say warrior has mobility, cleanses, avoidance, boon hate, and CC (IIRC the meta spellbreaker setup doesn't have unblockables, but there's a utility). You might as well just say 'thief has x, that's op!' which is...utterly ridiculous.

On another note. Sword/pistol is a weapon not attached to an elite spec. If you have a problem with DrD, say it, but let's try to avoid collateral damage.

Edit: Also, shortbow is 'mandatory' because of initative. What would be the point of running sword-pistol/sword-dagger? or dagger-pistol/sword-pistol? Ini will be consumed regardless of which weapon you're on and the weps aren't separate.

The way the class works forces weapon camping.

TLDR Thief can have a lot of things, but can they actually use them all at the same time? No way in hell.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@Shao.7236 said:@"Kageseigi.2150"There's no risk otherwise, I know people like to be strong, but in a competitive game it would be nice that what people play have some compromise over the other choices that they have, rather than just get everything. Daredevil alone is 3 evades that should be enough to deal with such weakness, given that other weapon evades don't even have that much uptime nor mobility without sword.

This doesn't work in practice...

First of all, Pistol Whip is a universal skill for the Thief, so non-Daredevils also use it, and they don't have a third dodge. However, even before the Daredevil and the Acrobatics change, the third dodge from Feline Grace wasn't enough to carry the Thief in melee.

Secondly, there are two aspects to the Thief. One is mobile roaming (traveling from Point A to Point B). The second is actual combat. A third dodge allows damage avoidance in the roaming phase. And while a third dodge is nice to have during actual combat (where you are actively attempting to damage the enemy), it does not make up for the sustainability of Aegis or Protection or Reflects or Invulnerabilities. Unless traited with Lotus Training or Bounding Dodger (again requiring Daredevil, and also giving up the Swiftness from Unhindered Combat), then dodging applies absolutely no pressure on the target. So you are completely defensive, simply surviving while dodging. You must complete your dodge, then use an attack to cause damage. As opposed to other professions with Protection, etc., the Thief is not able to both deal damage while mitigating damage simply by dodging. That's where the attack skills with evades come into play.

As said above, a third dodge (only if Daredevil, because other Thieves don't have it) is only one extra dodge more than anyone else (and that's only if endurance is full). That's basically one application of Aegis or Blind every 10 seconds compared to every other profession. That is NOT enough to fight... especially on point. Sure, it helps a little if you're only trying to bunker down/survive, but there are much better professions for that.

Truly, a third dodge, while handy, is not a big help when actually trying to kill something. If you take away the evades from certain skills (Pistol Whip), then you may as well give the Thief ten dodges... or even unlimited dodges (removing the Daredevil dodge traits). Make them purely defensive, like

. So the Thief would always be forced to make a choice between offense or defense. If he is attacking, then he is always vulnerable. But if he sees a hit coming in, he can always go defensive and avoid the damage, but giving up applying pressure.

Again, other professions can both apply and mitigate damage simultaneously... and even do so passively in many cases. Pistol Whip is an active skill and must be timed properly. If the Thief had other actual means of combat defense (in enough quantity), then it wouldn't be as much of an issue. If the evades were removed from Pistol Whip, you could have each sword slash apply a momentary Daze or Blind (so it would still mitigate any damage coming from targets that it actually hit, while still making the Thief vulnerable to attacks from outside its flurry). But I'd also suggest making the flurry portion block projectiles in front of the Thief, which would still allow defense from range.

Another option would be to remove the evades from Pistol Whip, lower its initiative cost, and also enhance Black Powder. Lower the initiative cost of Black Powder as well, then make it pulse Blind much more frequently (at least 1 time per second like it used to). Perhaps even allow it to block projectiles just as Smoke Screen does. Then a Thief could combo Black Powder with Pistol Whip to gain the same basic offensive/defensive ability it has now. Because of the added complexity, perhaps the rooting on Pistol Whip could also be removed.

Then again, I'm perfectly fine with Pistol Whip remaining as it is. It's clunky, but useful. And once more, compared to what other professions can do, it's more of an annoyance than anything else.

[Shao.7236]

@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

[Sindrener.1592]

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

Cus dash > bound in spvp i bet U didnt think about that

[Curennos.9307]

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

No, they're telling you that thief lacks in other places to make up for the relative strength of certain skills on weaponsets. Understanding how a class is designed and where their strengths are is important when trying to suggest nerfs. PW is earned when the opponent fails to do anything about it. Seems like another 'this thief doesn't die fast enough for my taste while they're obviously stalling and I'm just standing there doing nothing' complaint.

Heck I'd be overjoyed if a thief was dumb enough to 'spam' PW in my general direction.

People don't use Bound w/Sword-Pistol because you'll never catch anyone otherwise. Acro PW thief is shoved into spending dodges just to catch their opponent.

[Dantheman.3589]

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

Actually plenty of ppl have used bound before on this. The metabattle draft for this build was originally bound and heck I played it a bit that way for a bit.> @bluri.2653 said:

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

Cus dash > bound in spvp i bet U didnt think about that

This might be true overall but for this build I would personally take dash because it’s not really all about the damage. The damage isn’t bad but the main purpose behind the build atm is to have more dodges and more mobility. If I wanted bound it would be either a 1v1 build say s/p or dp + staff( this can also be played with zerkers to be more a 1shot spec) or it would be dp or staff 1 shot. Though bound is still definitely playable and good it just isn’t 100% a match with mechanics because 1 not much focus on stacking stealth and not really a 1 shot spec even though if you spec for damage u could probably get a kill in 1PW + bound + swipe it’s just pistol whip has to hit many times where as dp or staff is much closer to 1 hit

[Sindrener.1592]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

Actually plenty of ppl have used bound before on this. The metabattle draft for this build was originally bound and heck I played it a bit that way for a bit.> @bluri.2653 said:

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

Cus dash > bound in spvp i bet U didnt think about that

This might be true overall but for this build I would personally take dash because it’s not really all about the damage. The damage isn’t bad but the main purpose behind the build atm is to have more dodges and more mobility. If I wanted bound it would be either a 1v1 build say s/p or dp + staff( this can also be played with zerkers to be more a 1shot spec) or it would be dp or staff 1 shot. Though bound is still definitely playable and good it just isn’t 100% a match with mechanics because 1 not much focus on stacking stealth and not really a 1 shot spec even though if you spec for damage u could probably get a kill in 1PW + bound + swipe it’s just pistol whip has to hit many times where as dp or staff is much closer to 1 hit

Nothing u say makes any sense.

Current pw build in terms of 1v1 is better with dash. You are nothing but worse than average on thief from what i have seen, losing to vallun playing core d/d like what lmao.

I wouldnt take ur advice ever

Lol I said current pistol whip build should be dash. Also wow this dude is toxic making stuff up as usual

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/522724879?=9m07s

Is this making stuff up?

Lmao

[Dantheman.3589]

@bluri.2653 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

Actually plenty of ppl have used bound before on this. The metabattle draft for this build was originally bound and heck I played it a bit that way for a bit.> @bluri.2653 said:

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

Cus dash > bound in spvp i bet U didnt think about that

This might be true overall but for this build I would personally take dash because it’s not really all about the damage. The damage isn’t bad but the main purpose behind the build atm is to have more dodges and more mobility. If I wanted bound it would be either a 1v1 build say s/p or dp + staff( this can also be played with zerkers to be more a 1shot spec) or it would be dp or staff 1 shot. Though bound is still definitely playable and good it just isn’t 100% a match with mechanics because 1 not much focus on stacking stealth and not really a 1 shot spec even though if you spec for damage u could probably get a kill in 1PW + bound + swipe it’s just pistol whip has to hit many times where as dp or staff is much closer to 1 hit

Nothing u say makes any sense.

Current pw build in terms of 1v1 is better with dash. You are nothing but worse than average on thief from what i have seen, losing to vallun playing core d/d like what lmao.

I wouldnt take ur advice ever

Lol I said current pistol whip build should be dash. Also wow this dude is toxic making stuff up as usual

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/522724879?=9m07s

Is this making stuff up?

Lmao

Yes your argument is loaded. I won that match and avoided Vallun 90% of the time he got 1 kill but it wasn’t a 1v1 because I was going mid it was just a random 1 shot. As I said completely loaded and equivalent of basement dweller who isn’t even efamous stalking me on streams

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bluri.2653 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

Actually plenty of ppl have used bound before on this. The metabattle draft for this build was originally bound and heck I played it a bit that way for a bit.> @bluri.2653 said:

@Shao.7236 said:@"Curennos.9307"You're not reading my post in the right context, this person implying Thief has nothing, which is false. Never said it was OP to have all of that either, but Thief does have the most mobility still, nobody has more than it.

P/W final part of the design is stupid, if you're going to give a big fat evade. That one better be earned for doing something right, not just pressing 1 button and be uncaring of the outcome.

Literally staring at people spamming P/W while I'm just waiting for them to be vulnerable on node is an annoying waste of time, they're not even engaging me and when they do they're still in the safest position possible because 1 utility does it all via connection of 10 other following evades and disengaging abilities, can setup an easy amount of P/W combo's with Steal/Swipe by the complete nullification of stability with Boon Steal "TWICE".

D/D + P/D Condition is a thing, there's an plentiful amount of combinations to use P/P with also instead of Shortbow. People want that Infiltrator Arrow, that's all.

@Kageseigi.2150Evade isn't the problem, it's the access that is. Speaking in proper terms, whether it's Thief or Daredevil, both can setup P/W twice through stability.

Black Powder is fine as it is, if people were to use Bound instead of Dash, they're find better use out of it but I bet at least 80% of people haven't thought of it though it was common with D/P.

Cus dash > bound in spvp i bet U didnt think about that

This might be true overall but for this build I would personally take dash because it’s not really all about the damage. The damage isn’t bad but the main purpose behind the build atm is to have more dodges and more mobility. If I wanted bound it would be either a 1v1 build say s/p or dp + staff( this can also be played with zerkers to be more a 1shot spec) or it would be dp or staff 1 shot. Though bound is still definitely playable and good it just isn’t 100% a match with mechanics because 1 not much focus on stacking stealth and not really a 1 shot spec even though if you spec for damage u could probably get a kill in 1PW + bound + swipe it’s just pistol whip has to hit many times where as dp or staff is much closer to 1 hit

Nothing u say makes any sense.

Current pw build in terms of 1v1 is better with dash. You are nothing but worse than average on thief from what i have seen, losing to vallun playing core d/d like what lmao.

I wouldnt take ur advice ever

Lol I said current pistol whip build should be dash. Also wow this dude is toxic making stuff up as usual

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/522724879?=9m07s

Is this making stuff up?

Lmao

I dont get the point, you can make a video of anyone dying.I could make a shitty video like this of me killing sind, it proves nothing. Would just make me look like an imbecile.Think about that eh ?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Asuran.5469 said:

The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

No they don't. Bull's Charge has evade frame before the stun lands, not at the same time. BC also doesn't allow the Warrior to teleport at you instantly with a JI like effect while it's happening.

Mirage Cloak is an effect that combos with any effect it wants, which highly regarded as the most broken class effect in the game for many reasons. There are scores of full forum pages & threads discussing why this mechanic should be removed from the game completely.

Arcane Shield? What? No. It's just a precast shield. This is hardly a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spammable every 2s to 3s.

Signet of Stone what? It's a 40s CD 3s invuln. This is not a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spamable every 2s to 3s.

I'm not invested in this argument anymore, but read my premise again.

The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

My opinion on that hasn't changed. Many classes can press buttons to negate damage while they're still attacking, and thief seems to be the only one punished for it, even when that damage negation results in an animation lock for the thief that can be exploited by cc at the end of the move or before it comes out.

Push to nerf what you want. Just be careful that your rationale doesn't fail to make sense if it is applied to any other mechanic that leads to the same situation in a skirmish.