Pistol whip spam thieves

Erzian.5218 · December 16, 2019

I'd fight pw thief over any other thief build on necro at any time. It's still a bad match up but certainly better than d/p, s/d or rifle.

ZDragon.3046 · December 16, 2019

@Burnfall.9573 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:Necromancer Profession is -grandfathered-rooted...elder in Guild Wars, we deserve to be valued and feel worthy instead of being pushed around and being at the mercy of others

This prob wont ever change tbhThief has the advantage over necro in most (if not every) build match up no matter how you look at it.Necro is also one of the few professions where spamming pistolwhip can instantly screw them over because they only have 2 dodges, no extra evade or i frames, and chase potential when thief uses sword 2 to get away is not good because low mobility. Its probably the only profession thats just a free kill

(assuming the thief has any exp)

Its also one of the few professions where you cant just walk away from pistolwhip spam because of the low mobility. PW's hit box is bigger than people give it credit for trust me ive tried "walking away from it" and it almost never works if you just walk you will get hit by at least 2 pistol-whips possibly 3. As i said 2 pages back

feels bad man

but im not suggesting anything ill just let anet handle it.

The game in general is just sick in terms of how pvp is played right now and im ready for anet to rework it as a whole with the big patch not these small balance changes that just encourage people to play whats busted or cheese at the moment.

+10

ZDragon, i completely agree with you and i also do want a complete rework for Necromancer Profession: we deserve it.

I dont think necromancer needs a total rework it just needs a few missing tools and QoL changes to make its ideal as a damage soaker and not a damage evader work properly. With some of the changes Cal spoke on in the recent stream what gets done to other professions might make necromancer more viable assuming its does not get overly nerfed at the same time others get their nerfs.

I would be fine being limited to 2 dodges if damage soaking was closer to being equally effective as avoiding the damage or blocking the damage but the gap between those styles of defense is a bit too wide right now and some tools are just missing or under developed to keep up with the damage that can come out of even a single player right now.

Stand The Wall.6987 · December 16, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:snips

good job on writing a couple paragraphs on a non serious post. relax dood!

Asuran.5469 · December 16, 2019

@Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:This is hilarious. Why all of the sudden this build's gained popularity nowadays? Did they change something?Or is it because some boy posted a video on stream again? :D

There are a lot of amazing sleeper builds actually. People don't generally become aware of them until something they play gets nerfed and they are forced to try new things.

Mirage says it all. That class has been getting hard nerfs since PoF release, but every time it gets nerfed, it comes back stronger than it was before. Infinite Horizon is the ultimate example of a sleeper trait. Everyone was so focused on EM for so long, they weren't even noticing the true broken trait on Mirage.

Lighter.5631 · December 16, 2019

bro, just nerf sword, both condi and now this pistol whip stands the same, just sword 2 in and waste all resources on damaging evading skill and after they have no resources they just port out and try again later, u can't do anything against it if you don't have teleport for follow up.

Asuran.5469 · December 16, 2019

@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:Necromancer Profession is -grandfathered-rooted...elder in Guild Wars, we deserve to be valued and feel worthy instead of being pushed around and being at the mercy of others

This prob wont ever change tbhThief has the advantage over necro in most (if not every) build match up no matter how you look at it.Necro is also one of the few professions where spamming pistolwhip can instantly screw them over because they only have 2 dodges, no extra evade or i frames, and chase potential when thief uses sword 2 to get away is not good because low mobility. Its probably the only profession thats just a free kill

(assuming the thief has any exp)

Its also one of the few professions where you cant just walk away from pistolwhip spam because of the low mobility. PW's hit box is bigger than people give it credit for trust me ive tried "walking away from it" and it almost never works if you just walk you will get hit by at least 2 pistol-whips possibly 3. As i said 2 pages back

feels bad man

but im not suggesting anything ill just let anet handle it.

The game in general is just sick in terms of how pvp is played right now and im ready for anet to rework it as a whole with the big patch not these small balance changes that just encourage people to play whats busted or cheese at the moment.

+10

ZDragon, i completely agree with you and i also do want a complete rework for Necromancer Profession: we deserve it.

I dont think necromancer needs a total rework it just needs a few missing tools and QoL changes to make its ideal as a damage soaker and not a damage evader work properly. With some of the changes Cal spoke on in the recent stream what gets done to other professions might make necromancer more viable assuming its does not get overly nerfed at the same time others get their nerfs.

I would be fine being limited to 2 dodges if damage soaking was closer to being equally effective as avoiding the damage or blocking the damage but the gap between those styles of defense is a bit too wide right now and some tools are just missing or under developed to keep up with the damage that can come out of even a single player right now.

The problem is just raw damage being too high.

The lower in-game damage, the more valuable attribute tied face tanking defenses are. The higher the in-game damage, attribute tied defenses become less important and dodges/evades/blocks/invulns become much more important. What does a difference in 12k health or 16k health or light armor or heavy matter when someone can 1 or 2 shot regardless? When that stuff starts happening, the only thing that is important is having a lot of dodge/evade/block/invuln. if everything every class did was a 1 shot, and we all had 1 health, which would the best classes be? Thief/Mesmer absolutely no question. The classes with the highest dodge/evade uptime and best mobility & stealth. Right now the game isn't too far off from that scenario, which is why more attribute tied classes/builds like Necro are hurting.

If Areanet doesn't plan on reducing ALL damage on every class/build by a good universal 25%, they need to give core Necromancer some kind of block or extra evade frame to start keeping up with what power creep DPS has done to the game.

Zexanima.7851 · December 16, 2019

The build is a bit annoying, yeah, but it's not impossible to counter. I don't have a problem with the skill it's self it just needs to cost a little bit more to use I feel. Either increase the initiative by 1 (maaaayyybbbeee 2???) or decrease the evade frames by like 1/4 second. I think that would be plenty to get rid of the "annoying" factor. As it is now its like a super strong hundred blades.

Azure The Heartless.3261 · December 16, 2019

@Dhemize.8649 said:If Anet would simply remove the added evade functions from pistol whip it would be enough to get rid of the cheese meme matches we've unfortunately been plagued with.

No. Thief has the lowest health pool of all the classes, and rooting a thief is one of its hard counters. That's why so many of their skills break immobilize if they can use them. There would be no point or practical application to use a skill that roots the thief if it did not offer some kind of mitigation. It would be heavily detrimental to them in almost any reasonable situation.

@Dhemize.8649 said:No thief in platinum league is going to die in one second. Quit with the hyperbole.

That doesn't mean anything/isn't what he was getting at. Thieves absoulutely will die in one second if they are rooted in place with no mitigation for that long. baseline thief HP is 12k. Some classes can output three times that amount in less than one second.

@"Asuran.5469" said:It's real simple: No attack should ever be a hard CC, with an evade on it, that has extreme damage output, and is spammable 100% uptime.

It's not spammable 100% uptime. It has punish frames before and after, and costs 5 init per use. A thief can at most use it 3 times on you back to back before he is tapped out.You can also walk out of the damage. The stun lasts for .75 seconds.The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

The most problematic aspect of this build is that when you go to bait the thief into damage when you know he's going to teleport in, you can't.

?If you know hes going to teleport in, evade or block, or interrupt him as hes winding up. If they're daredevil, you cannot block/use a casted block, so walk out of the tail end of the damage and start cleaving. Or, before that happens, move > 600 units away then block to force them to sword 2 if they want to hug you.

The pistol whip stuns you before anything you do lands. Then if you move backwards to counter play the pistol whip and try to counter strike, he has evade so you can't.

?Attack/Stun after the pistol whip finishes. It's not seamless. They'll have to burn an evade or stunbreak to get out of disadvantage.

Then the thief disappears again during any phase of vulnerability and comes back to reengage you when he knows he's safe to do so. Over time it dwindles you down, you lose, and there isn't anything you can about it.

It sounds like you'd be upset vs any thief build. All thief builds have that kind of playstyle, regardless of what weapon they use. They all hit you with damage then leave, and come back when it's safe. Ideally they are supposed to dwindle you down, but there is always something you can do about it, especially when the skill keeps the thief visible, has explicit points where you can inflict stun or damage, and uses up a third of the thief's attack resource pool per cast.

Claiming otherwise is defeatist.

The best example I can give as to how over powered and too utilitized this build is, is a few days ago when an AT team I was on almost beat Team USA. Two or three players on my team were using pistol whip thieves, and they were just shutting down Team USA members. We were leading Team USA in point value up until about 300 points. then Team USA swapped characters and brought in 2 pistol whip thieves and a herald, and then came back and beat us in the end. This is not something that normally would ever happen, but that pistol whip spam build is so strong, that if decent players are wielding it against great players, the decent players will beat the great players if the great player aren't wielding it themselves. That's way too much inherent class/build strength.

That's really funny.

Remove the evade frame from pistol whip.

No.

Or remove the stun. No, I don't mean turn stun into daze, I mean remove the CC entirely if the evade frame is to stay.

Fine, but the evade should start immediately.

@ZDragon.3046 said:I dont think necromancer needs a total rework it just needs a few missing tools and QoL changes to make its ideal as a damage soaker

This. Necros have no way to take 0 damage or block or otherwise mitigate damage in a way that isn't strippable, kitable, or otherwise negatable. And thief does all of those things by nature.Most of the players coming here with a permanent chip on their shoulder regarding thief play Necro, and I get why they're upset. Thieves abuse necros mechanically.Can we just buff Necro's damage mitigation so thieves don't have to keep getting nerfed when they find a necro alone and are mechanically stacked against them?

I shouldn't have to be defending pistol whip because Sinderer used it and suddenly everyone found out its a way to not die while you're trying to contest that doesn't involve abandoning point progress.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Builds become problems as they become problems. Right now the two most omnipresent builds I'm seeing in ranked are Core Chaos Power Mesmer and Pistol Whip Daredevil and by a huge margin.

Be careful that you do not misconstrue the prevalence of a build as "that build has become problematic" when the cause of that builds prevalence could be lack of resources to fill a needed role.

Shatter mes is back because chrono is useless pvp wise and condi mirage takes longer to put out its damage rampup, which makes it susceptible to +1 more than before.

Pistol whip thief is back because Staff and its associated traits, the Dagger Pistol line, and the S/D line have all been nerfed and the only other option requires barely interacting with a contested point at all.

I can understand the frustration with both of them, and the need for telegraphs in the former case, but it seems spiteful to go after the most visible thief line when it hands you frames you can punish it on.

viquing.8254 · December 16, 2019

I'm laughing, because that's exactly what happend for CI on mesmers :

Exists since 2015 rework.
Someday someone pop it in mAt stream (note that he didn't win the mAt.).
Everyone play it.
Forum spammed by interactives "cheesy", "no brain", "broken", "unfun", etc.
=> Trait deleted.

Have fun =)

Azure The Heartless.3261 · December 16, 2019

@"viquing.8254" said:I'm laughing, because that's exactly what happend for CI on mesmers :
Exists since rework.
Someday someone pop it in mAt stream (note that he didn't win the mAt.).
Everyone play it.
Forum spammed by interactives "cheesy", "no brain", "broken", "unfun", etc.
=> Trait deleted.
Have fun =)

Chaotic interruption got buffed when they added elite specializations and had no telegraph on the skills it often synergized with. Nontelegraphed condi loading =/= attack you can walk out of.

but w/e

viquing.8254 · December 16, 2019

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@"viquing.8254" said:I'm laughing, because that's exactly what happend for CI on mesmers :
Exists since rework.
Someday someone pop it in mAt stream (note that he didn't win the mAt.).
Everyone play it.
Forum spammed by interactives "cheesy", "no brain", "broken", "unfun", etc.
=> Trait deleted.
Have fun =)

Chaotic interruption got buffed when they added elite specializations and had no telegraph on the skills it often synergized with. Nontelegraphed condi loading =/= attack you can walk out of.

but w/e

the condi loading part was telegraphed and the "walk out of" = take half hits during walking out at normal movement speed. In each case there are/were counter but yeah w/e.

Curennos.9307 · December 16, 2019

Wonder how many complaints about thief would go away if sword#2 was suddenly nerfed to require LoS and how many thief builds would still be in the meta.

bravan.3876 · December 16, 2019

@Curennos.9307 said:Wonder how many complaints about thief would go away if sword#2 was suddenly nerfed to require LoS and how many thief builds would still be in the meta.

That would make sword Thief unnecessary clunky. I think before that i would prefer to see a very little delay between the teleport and the immobilize to have a better chance to dodge it or being able to interrupt the skill before the immob starts. PW is not that big of a problem without sword 2.

Curennos.9307 · December 16, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:Wonder how many complaints about thief would go away if sword#2 was suddenly nerfed to require LoS and how many thief builds would still be in the meta.

That would make sword Thief unnecessary clunky. I think before that i would prefer to see a very little delay between the teleport and the immobilize to have a better chance to dodge it or being able to interrupt the skill before the immob starts. PW is not that big of a problem without sword 2.

It was meant to be a rhetorical wondering.

My beef with 'add more time to react' is that there seems to be very little in between for many skills - they either get countered a lot and thus require large amounts of setup (aka the entirety of warrior, basically) or they...don't - like Steal.

I think making the teleport more reactable would have two results.

In some situations, it would do absolutely nothing because the thief is engaging from LoS anyway and there's no way to predict the first engagement.

In others, it would get the thief killed because for, imo, for most players something becoming more reactable means it becomes reactable all. The. Time. And the thief is just going to implode. It seems a lot of players fear the immob -> some skill chain, but the first strike itself doesn't so very much damage and there's a pretty big chunk of time on first engage where the thief is very vulnerable unless covered by a Steal daze.

Now, I won't speak for anyone else, but it seeeeeeems most people don't actually have an issue with the thief engaging from LoS so much as they take issue with said thief popping back out, then back in again, and so on.

I think adding the potential for a bit more punishment on the withdrawal portion of the skill is the way to go - either some mechanic that 1) Rewards landing the immob and punishes missing and/or 2) A mechanic that rewards/punishes missing the follow up.

For example, having Infiltrator's strike apply a debuff to the target it hits. Hitting said target within a second or two with a weapon skill (not steal!) will reduce the retreat portion of the skill's cost to 'normal' (and ofc increase the base cost a little). I think this differs from adding something to the engage skill in that it creates counterplay - as opposed to a very...how to say, stiff and unyielding set of scenarios. It could introduce a game of 'when is that follow up hit coming'. Idk, slap on another cleanse if necessary or something to even it out.

Admittedly that's a bit of a mixed example - adding a longer cast time to the withdrawal would be the simplest and I probs should've gone with that, but eh. >.>

In short, I don't think I've ever seen people reeaaally complain about thief's engage ability - it's their reengage and withdraw capability that gets folks.

bravan.3876 · December 16, 2019

@Curennos.9307 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:Wonder how many complaints about thief would go away if sword#2 was suddenly nerfed to require LoS and how many thief builds would still be in the meta.