can anyone explain to me why holomode isn't on a 10 sec cd?

[Math.5123]

With other things being toned down, I would touch the resustain of Holo. Give Holo leap the ride the lightning treatment, and reducing stealth on toss S. I think the damage is fine, it's what the class was supposed to be.

It obviously does not need changes in the current meta with the power levels of other classes.

Also, being an avid dh fan. I have a quirk about launch wall too, but that's besides the point.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:In Holo mode don't you have a leap that's on a 4 second cd? Thank God u can't just use it almost when ever u want.

its 2 sec cd lol. that's always bothered me.

O, geez 2 seconds? That lvl of mobility and leap combo potential is threw the roofs.

It's roughly the same as swiftness out of combat, not including the precast and aftercast. It's a good gap-closer, but not "fantastic mobility."

Context also matters: Engineer lacks other gap-closers in its arsenal (and I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, rocket boots is not a gap closer), and has no Z-axis teleports or iframes. For comparison, while Jaunt is the same distance, it is a z-axis teleport, allowing the user to teleport to places otherwise impossible to reach without teleports.

[storm.3120]

@"Vagrant.7206" said:For comparison, while Jaunt is the same distance, it is a z-axis teleport, allowing the user to teleport to places otherwise impossible to reach without teleports.MonkaS, jaunt is 450 range on 30s cd and an elite slot, rocket boots is an utility skill with 20s cd 900 range and can be traited for superspeed and lower cooldown on each count(and more range? I dont remember).If you tried to compare an actual HOLO LEAP vs jaunt then you are comparing apples and oranges, no clue what you are trying to achieve by doing so

[Vagrant.7206]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:For comparison, while

Jaunt

is the same distance, it is a z-axis teleport, allowing the user to teleport to places otherwise impossible to reach without teleports.MonkaS, jaunt is 450 range on 30s cd and an elite slot, rocket boots is an utility skill with 20s cd 900 range and can be traited for superspeed and lower cooldown on each count(and more range? I dont remember).If you tried to compare an actual HOLO LEAP vs jaunt then you are comparing apples and oranges, no clue what you are trying to achieve by doing so

Pointing out that holo mobility is not "through the roof."

[storm.3120]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:For comparison, while

Jaunt

is the same distance, it is a z-axis teleport, allowing the user to teleport to places otherwise impossible to reach without teleports.MonkaS, jaunt is 450 range on 30s cd and an elite slot, rocket boots is an utility skill with 20s cd 900 range and can be traited for superspeed and lower cooldown on each count(and more range? I dont remember).If you tried to compare an actual HOLO LEAP vs jaunt then you are comparing apples and oranges, no clue what you are trying to achieve by doing so

Pointing out that holo mobility is not "

through the roof

."It doesnt make it look less ridiculous compared to other leaping skills on 12+ s cd's for people. (dont look at ranger GS3, its bloated as fook). Yet, attempt to compare it to jaunt was beyond stupid, but I give you extra points for that bolded part

[wasss.1208]

@Odik.4587 said:

It doesnt make it look less ridiculous compared to other leaping skills on 12+ s cd's for people. (dont look at ranger GS3, its bloated as fook). Yet, attempt to compare it to jaunt was beyond stupid, but I give you extra points for that bolded part

The original point still stands though. Beign able to teleport (for example) on a higher lever on Kyhlo mid, in a fight saves you, unless the enemy has teleport, too. Imo, if holo got more damage and mobility utility skills, instead of defensive ones, it wouldn't be a bunker/bruiser, but really a high risk-high reward +1er, like it was originally planned.

Don't get me wrong. 2 second CD on that skill, for this heat cost is too low in my opinion, and if I recall correctly, a lot of other engie players said the same in the past, on the engi subforum.

[storm.3120]

@wasss.1208 said:

@"Odik.4587" said:

It doesnt make it look less ridiculous compared to other leaping skills on 12+ s cd's for people. (dont look at ranger GS3, its bloated as fook). Yet, attempt to compare it to jaunt was beyond stupid, but I give you extra points for that bolded part

The original point still stands though. Beign able to teleport (for example) on a higher lever on Kyhlo mid, in a fight saves you, unless the enemy has teleport, too. Imo, if holo got more damage and mobility utility skills, instead of defensive ones, it wouldn't be a bunker/bruiser, but really a high risk-high reward +1er, like it was originally planned.What was it? Leap isnt teleport? Great. Do we need a captain to tell us which color grass is ? But I was this captain that said "you cant compare teleports and leaping skills and if you want to then compare similar skills".They never had any sort of plans on elite specs they release, only to make money through selling powercrept to hell elite specs.Don't get me wrong. 2 second CD on that skill, for this heat cost is too low in my opinion, and if I recall correctly, a lot of other engie players said the same in the past, on the engi subforum.I dont get it, really. You tell me that 2s cd dmg/leap skill is fine because its not a shadowstep but in same time its not... Im confused. Actually, thats not my business.

flies away

[ZDragon.3046]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:its 2 sec cd lol. that's always bothered me.

Context is key bro. Holosmith is pretty average right now, I'd say in an ideal balance state. Holosmith is way more fun and straightforward to fight than the vast majority of specs at the moment.

A high access to a skill that moves you 450 distance is great, no doubt. Keep in mind the context of that being on a spec that has no iFrames at all when attacking, and one o-shi button on a 48s cooldown - it's 100% vulnerable to counter pressure when it's swinging diack. Fighting a Holo is an incredible breath of fresh air compared to high iFrame specs while simultaneously bursting you, permanent stealth specs, or tanky specs that vomit stability and conditions.

Thats why it has perma boon and a block though along side that 48s shrink.So while it might not be spamming iframes its far from being proper its got its own abusive aspects.

Generally the problem i have with holo is that the risk of over heated its not nearly as high as it should be it never has been. Its rare to see a holo over heat for all the tools and damage they get. If the risk of heat was higher i wouldnt care about the cd tbh.

[wasss.1208]

@Odik.4587 said:

I dont get it, really. You tell me that 2s cd dmg/leap skill is fine because its not a shadowstep but in same time its not... Im confused. Actually, thats not my business. flies away

Never said such a thing. Would you quote it for me? My memory is quite weak.

[Chaith.8256]

@ZDragon.3046 said:Generally the problem i have with holo is that the risk of over heated its not nearly as high as it should be it never has been. Its rare to see a holo over heat for all the tools and damage they get. If the risk of heat was higher i wouldnt care about the cd tbh.

Thing is, if ArenaNet made the heat increase faster or the heat storage smaller, players would just get used to the new heat gains and still be largely successful at preventing overheats. From personal experience, overheats come from being overconfident you can push it to the very limit. There's not much of a point to it, because you cannot balance around players ever overheating, it's just an unforgivingly hard punish when the Holo messes up.. honestly, quite pointless design despite a cool concept.

[Axl.8924]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:snips

yeah, right. this makes sense but its still strange that it doesn't have a normal cd like berserker, reaper, or druid. its the incongruency that gets me I think.

A major difference between forge mode and those 3 espec modes is that heat generation is relatively controlled and consistent where as the other 3 have the potential to gain extremely high amounts of their resources in a very short amount of time. With necro shroud when there are tons of mobs or wvw zerglings dying around you they can get full life force in like 2 seconds and maintain an insane shroud uptime. Berserker cleaving 3+ targets will pretty much instantly fill adrenaline, and druid healing a whole raid group with aoe perma regen and staff skills gives insanely fast astral force generation. With heat, the generation is pretty consistent in all situations only exception is if the holo is being stunlocked for extended periods of time, but that almost never happens. So with the other 3 the cd is needed to keep situations where extremely high resource generation is possible in check which isn't an issue with holo heat.

Reaper has 10 sec cd though just like holo and even though reaper duration is fine you aren't supposed to stay in reaper shroud the whole time anyways cause quickness disapppears and you have to manage it a round the quickness bonus.

Thing is, if ArenaNet made the heat increase faster or the heat storage smaller, players would just get used to the new heat gains and still be largely successful at preventing overheats. From personal experience, overheats come from being overconfident you can push it to the very limit. There's not much of a point to it, because you cannot balance around players ever overheating, it's just an unforgivingly hard punish when the Holo messes up.. honestly, quite pointless design despite a cool concept.

Whats up with the overheating why not just put a air con or fans inside to cool the machine down?

[Chaith.8256]

@Axl.8924 said:Reaper has 10 sec cd though just like holo

Nope.. nothing alike. One's a 10 second cooldown on the form, the other is a 6 second cooldown on leaving the form (with otherwise no cooldown).

[Nilkemia.8507]

Why? Because that's not the main problem with it, and because the last thing that profession needs is more nerfing. A rework would be in order, but at this point the developers probably wouldn't be willing to go that far.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

.......and somewhere the Balance Team is sitting down, enjoying popcorn and having a laugh at ppl arguing in this forum.

[Arkantos.7460]

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:.......and somewhere the Balance Team is sitting down, enjoying popcorn and having a laugh at ppl arguing in this forum.

and preparing next holobuff for big balance patch

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Axl.8924"https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Onslaughtyou dont lose quickness when you stay in reaper form.its 3s quickness that pulses every 3s. meaning that its permanent.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Reaper has 10 sec cd though just like holo

Nope.. nothing alike. One's a 10 second cooldown on the form, the other is a 6 second cooldown on leaving the form (with otherwise no cooldown).

kind of have to agree reaper is not the same as holoNot only are the cds different and fuction in different ways the cd on the skill inside those forms are not nearly equal to one another holo provides much lower cds than reaper does and allows utility usage while in the photon mode. Reaper on the other hand has much higher cds no utility access with the benefit of having protected hp while in the form. Hard to say which is better but if anything I think if holo was not depending on perma boon in most builds it wouldnt be nearly as strong as it is now though.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Axl.8924"https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Onslaughtyou dont lose quickness when you stay in reaper form.its 3s quickness that pulses every 3s. meaning that its permanent.

I think he means it disappears after leaving shroud. I think you just took his wording the wrong way. vs holos boons which might stay for a much longer duration even after they drop PF mode.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Generally the problem i have with holo is that the risk of over heated its not nearly as high as it should be it never has been. Its rare to see a holo over heat for all the tools and damage they get. If the risk of heat was higher i wouldnt care about the cd tbh.

Thing is, if ArenaNet made the heat increase faster or the heat storage smaller, players would just get used to the new heat gains and still be largely successful at preventing overheats. From personal experience, overheats come from being overconfident you can push it to the very limit. There's not much of a point to it, because you cannot balance around players ever overheating, it's just an unforgivingly hard punish when the Holo messes up.. honestly, quite pointless design despite a cool concept.

ok this is a fair point i just still think that holo is still just given too much freedom with its FP mode generally i would like to see people making the mistake of over heating a lot more than it happens. Right now the reward seems a bit high and the risk is a bit low even if new people adjust to new heat levels i think it could stand to see a bit of an adjustment. Holo is certainly not the most broken thing in the game but i wouldn't consider it innocent.I also still have an issue with alot of the instant tool belt damage skills but thats a base issue not specifically a holo issue.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Odik.4587 said:

@wasss.1208 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

It doesnt make it look less ridiculous compared to other leaping skills on 12+ s cd's for people. (dont look at ranger GS3, its bloated as fook). Yet, attempt to compare it to jaunt was beyond stupid, but I give you extra points for that bolded part

The original point still stands though. Beign able to teleport (for example) on a higher lever on Kyhlo mid, in a fight saves you, unless the enemy has teleport, too. Imo, if holo got more damage and mobility utility skills, instead of defensive ones, it wouldn't be a bunker/bruiser, but really a high risk-high reward +1er, like it was originally planned.What was it? Leap isnt teleport? Great.

Jaunt is a leap.

@Arkantos.7460 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:.......and somewhere the Balance Team is sitting down, enjoying popcorn and having a laugh at ppl arguing in this forum.

and preparing next holobuff for big balance patch

Source?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"ZDragon.3046"this are his words " you aren't supposed to stay in reaper shroud the whole time anyways cause quickness disapppears and you have to manage it a round the quickness bonus "I agree that you arent supposed to stay in reaper but not becouse quickness dissapears.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"ZDragon.3046"this are his words " you aren't supposed to stay in reaper shroud the whole time anyways cause quickness disapppears and you have to manage it a round the quickness bonus "I agree that you arent supposed to stay in reaper but not becouse quickness dissapears.

I think he means that when you leave shroud the bonus disappears which is true. He just worded it poorly and you might be taking it slightly too literal.

[Hederrain.9207]

ppl just want to see holo burried 6 feet under for the hell of it. try play it yourselves for starters.

1. the reason its not on 10 sec cd to disengage is because of HEAT. granted it dosnt seem like it matters much since noone overheats unless they get greedy or are plain stupid nowadays = players git gud at managing heat. yet somehow ppl arent happy unless the holo overheat every single time... u guys do realise its the only class in entire game that got so severe punishment for missplaying right? but somehow its not enough with 8k self dmg and locked out of toolbelt skills for 12 sec's minimum.
2. if u set the PF disengage cd to 10 sec u will basically screw over any holo engaging PF at 50% heat, most likely ending in overheat unless he isnt using holo 5 or 4. good balance by kittens that will end up in a class that cant use his class mechanics . looking at chrono >__> (its already a bugged cd atm resulting in 6.5 sec to disengage)
3. the heat meter is basically a timegate for holo burst, they can only pump out X amount of dmg before they NEED to cooldown, this isnt a second wep swap ppl. survive the obvious skills (dodge 4head) and watch the holo get into red, punish him when he need to disengage and gg.
4. if u guys are adamant about a 10 sec cd to disengage photon forge i would like engi to get in combat weapon swap. anything less is BS

[Axl.8924]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"ZDragon.3046"this are his words " you aren't supposed to stay in reaper shroud the whole time anyways cause quickness disapppears and you have to manage it a round the quickness bonus "I agree that you arent supposed to stay in reaper but not becouse quickness dissapears.

I mispoken, it disappears after leaving shroud.

Also, It's different and not a fair comparison, because both work completely differently, plus I cannot comment on holo or engi since I don't play engi, but I do play reaper.

Yes, it's strong in PvE, but if you are talking about PVP? necromancers start out with 0 life force, so until they get that life force, there is a good chance of getting ganked by 1 shot classes.

In PvE life force and in WVW aren't a problem because yes there are a ton of enemies who die fast and give life force

Also, holosmith is known for having a ton of sustain with elixir x and having amazing disengage, and they were amazingly strong with that corona burst.

Also pretty much none complains about reaper because even though they hit extremely hard they are very predictable attacks and are easily kited and plenty vulnerable to mobility and ranged attacks, in fact, they are probably more vulnerable than others. Necromancers and reapers need to kinda lure people into coming to them because they are slow and attempting to use their cc to be able to kite because they lack ways to negate damage all together like other classes such as Invulns evades aegis for instance.

[storm.3120]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@wasss.1208 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

It doesnt make it look less ridiculous compared to other leaping skills on 12+ s cd's for people. (dont look at ranger GS3, its bloated as fook). Yet, attempt to compare it to jaunt was beyond stupid, but I give you extra points for that bolded part

The original point still stands though. Beign able to teleport (for example) on a higher lever on Kyhlo mid, in a fight saves you, unless the enemy has teleport, too. Imo, if holo got more damage and mobility utility skills, instead of defensive ones, it wouldn't be a bunker/bruiser, but really a high risk-high reward +1er, like it was originally planned.What was it? Leap isnt teleport? Great.

Jaunt

is a leap.BEcause its has combo finisher leap doesnt mean its a LEAP skill like holo2/warrior's sw2/guardian gs3 and whatnot, hence why its can be used while stunned and without interruption actions and can give you a "no valid path". Thats a whole new level of bias here, to justify something stupid on your main you did comapre 2 skills from different categories but but... leap finisher... ! Even quadriple facepalm wont be enough...Gw2 forum never fail to amuse and prove that 99.9% people here are must not be heard, ever.