Finishing downed players in small outnumbered fights is much much harder now

[coro.3176]

Overall, I'm enjoying the new balance changes quite a bit but..

It feels like it takes monumental effort to finish a downed player when fighting outnumbered. The downed skills still deal the same amount of damage as before, but my sustain and damage have been nerfed. This means on top of the usual challenges of getting a player down eg. in a 1v2, there's an additional struggle to finish them as they're dealing comparatively more damage to you than you are to them.

Even in a 1v1, if I down the other player but am somewhat low health, I have to run away, wait for my (now much longer cd) heal, then come back like 20-30s later and attempt a finish or stomp.

I think it'd be fair to nerf downed damage, reduce downed health, or maybe test another few weeks with no downstate given the large damage reduction across all classes.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Yea they probably forgot about downed state skills in this. Which is fair; so that should be the next focus.

[Wraistlin.6072]

Honestly I'd like to run with it in the state it is for awhile and see how it feels. Lets be honest, downstate was nearly pointless the last few years, because it was so easy to finish players. I'd say now the whole purpose of the downstate has gained its footing again, to allow for a potential second chance.

[coro.3176]

@Wraistlin.6072 said:Honestly I'd like to run with it in the state it is for awhile and see how it feels. Lets be honest, downstate was nearly pointless the last few years, because it was so easy to finish players. I'd say now the whole purpose of the downstate has gained its footing again, to allow for a potential second chance.

That second chance is backbreaking for players trying to win outnumbered fights. It's hard enough to get your opponents down when there are 2 or 3 attacking you at once. It often takes burning all your defensive cooldowns along with some clever LoS just to survive and get 1 down. If you can't finish that down, you're never going to win those fights.

[coro.3176]

Another poster in the PvP forum brings up a good point:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:Lower damage level makes cleaving out bodies hard/near impossible even against 1 person rezzing. This gets exponentially more difficult against multiple rezzers. Stomping is still unreliable in a lot of situations especially now with less stability, etc. and doesn't work against multiple people rezzing. Not sure what the fix to this would be necessarily, besides lower healing on rez.

Would love other thoughts and experiences, especially since the changes are so new

The res speed should also be looked at.

[ollbirtan.2915]

Here we go again ---- You actually have to think / look at your HP, and (oh dear) kite? Sounds like an awful lot to take in after one-shot meta.

[coro.3176]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:Here we go again ---- You actually have to think / look at your HP, and (oh dear) kite? Sounds like an awful lot to take in after one-shot meta.

No. It's more that I already killed them once. I shouldn't need to kill them twice and then struggle to even do that if they have teammates anywhere nearby.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

i don't care about the <4 people situations on that concern - but at smallscale skrimishes with like 10 players it gets really bad.

and also, against bigger numbers it got worse i feel. you kill slower, more options for every other char to res them while you try to avoid beeing grilled by the condifieldspamerama. :sleeping:

[Chaba.5410]

@Wraistlin.6072 said:Honestly I'd like to run with it in the state it is for awhile and see how it feels. Lets be honest, downstate was nearly pointless the last few years, because it was so easy to finish players. I'd say now the whole purpose of the downstate has gained its footing again, to allow for a potential second chance.

The downstate was pretty strong in small skirmishes before the patch. Now it's worse.

[Aspen Tie.5084]

Stomp the yard

[Sobx.1758]

Don't nerf it, remove it :D

[Gop.8713]

Downed state is kind of op now lol. It's weird to get downed and suddenly see this huge damage buff, should probably be addressed, also res speed as others have mentioned . . .

But I think it's also a good occasion to remind players that when you're outnumbered, you should actually be expected to lose. If you find yourself consistently or even frequently winning outnumbered fights, it's a good indication that you've found a build that needs attention . . .

[coro.3176]

@Gop.8713 said:But I think it's also a good occasion to remind players that when you're outnumbered, you should actually be expected to lose. If you find yourself consistently or even frequently winning outnumbered fights, it's a good indication that you've found a build that needs attention . . .

There are situations where the skill differential is just so great that a 1v3 would be winnable if downed state wasn't so strong. 1v2 or 1v3 against equally skilled players is almost always a loss though, and that's totally fine.

[jaif.3518]

This is not an issue in 1v1 or Many v Many. It's a very limited subset of fights - 1v2. Not only that, someone with decent AoEs, especially condi AoEs, shouldn't have an issue, so it really only would come up with a bunker build or a pure single-target build.

I don't see the problem here.

-Jeff

[coro.3176]

@jaif.3518 said:This is not an issue in 1v1 or Many v Many. It's a very limited subset of fights - 1v2. Not only that, someone with decent AoEs, especially condi AoEs, shouldn't have an issue, so it really only would come up with a bunker build or a pure single-target build.

I don't see the problem here.

-Jeff

• 1v1 - not technically an issue - just annoying because you need to respect your opponent's downed damage - sometimes waiting until you're at full health before moving back to attempt a finish
• Many v Many - absolutely still an issue when outnumbered. The outnumbering force can spare a few members to easily res their downs and the outnumbered force struggles to finish downs due to nerfed damage. (up to a point. once groups get large enough, it's all an aoe spamfest anyway)

[Gop.8713]

@coro.3176 said:

@Gop.8713 said:But I think it's also a good occasion to remind players that when you're outnumbered, you should actually be expected to lose. If you find yourself consistently or even frequently winning outnumbered fights, it's a good indication that you've found a build that needs attention . . .

There are situations where the skill differential is just so great that a 1v3 would be winnable if downed state wasn't so strong. 1v2 or 1v3 against equally skilled players is almost always a loss though, and that's totally fine.

Ofc, and those are always fun moments but not really something to design the game around. I'd argue for nerfing downstate bc getting downed should never be an advantage, not bc it makes winning outnumbered harder. There have been a couple of occasions since the patch when as a strategic choice I've intentionally walked into damage while attacking a defended camp so I could get some downstate damage in before rallying off an npc. I don't think that's good for the game . . .

[lodjur.1284]

@"coro.3176" said:Overall, I'm enjoying the new balance changes quite a bit but..

It feels like it takes monumental effort to finish a downed player when fighting outnumbered. The downed skills still deal the same amount of damage as before, but my sustain and damage have been nerfed. This means on top of the usual challenges of getting a player down eg. in a 1v2, there's an additional struggle to finish them as they're dealing comparatively more damage to you than you are to them.

Even in a 1v1, if I down the other player but am somewhat low health, I have to run away, wait for my (now much longer cd) heal, then come back like 20-30s later and attempt a finish or stomp.

I think it'd be fair to nerf downed damage, reduce downed health, or maybe test another few weeks with no downstate given the large damage reduction across all classes.

I would personally love some combination of

Lower downstate hpNo invuln on downRemoval of the "2" skills (the anti stomp ones)No free cleanse on downSlower/removed ressing1-2 person cap on ressing

Or a complete removal of it from WvW