[VoD/Vid] 2v2 Power Mirage - One Dodge God (incl audio/subtitle+giveaway)

[ArlAlt.1630]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:33333333 oh I’m sorry I’m playing thief.kitten you talking about?

If you spam 3 on any thief vs any player that isn't you will most likely crash and burn. And in the end lots of 3 skills still got nerfed anyway to actively prevent them from being spammed wantonly.

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Pick it up now, tell me how you really feel.

What, now that it doesn't autocarry? It's fine if it doesn't.

I really wish I had recorded my 3333 condi thief so I can showcase how successful and easy it is.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:I really wish I had recorded my 3333 condi thief so I can showcase how successful and easy it is.

Then record it, and if need be nerf it more. I really doubt anybody reasonably aware is going to let someone death blossom them to deat, but if you can make it work as reliably as staff condi did, I'm definitely up for shaving it.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:What I was trying to say is give thieves half the initiative and probably Sind will still win some matches. I'm fine with claiming that mesmers are fine based on the best mesmer around as long as every other profession on game is nerfed so hard into oblivion that only the best players can still play.

People are absolutely fine with pushing for nerfing thief builds based on Sind's performance, or based on how the build performs at high level. We just experienced that with the pistol whip nerf AND the shadow arts nerf. It got hamstrung, and the bandwagoners left it alone.

Whether or not that is always a good idea is debatable, but that's beside the point.

We are only talking about an elite spec of a class (the core of which still functions well enough), and not core mechanics here, mind you. Mirage having one less dodge to work with/My assertion that Mirage is still viable because a top player is doing well with it doesn't carry over specifically to core or Chrono. Those are different arguments entirely.

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Jazz is arguably the best Mesmer to have ever played the game. Coming from a not too shabby Mesmer here. The arguments go more of her trying to push a rather fortunate streak of encounters as status quo.

They're not status quo for mirage. Not now. But they could be if people hit the lab more instead of being upset they cant run staff and have a winning MU against most classes.

It's kind of silly how, when people push for nerfing a class, the first defense against it is "That class doesnt see use or viability in high end play" but when it does see use and viability in high end play the defense becomes "we shouldn't be balancing around high end play."

Now. If the nerf of -1 dodge is too much for mirage as a whole across, then I'm up for debating that as well. Don't go around trying to discredit players making it work though, or claim that because one of mesmer's elite specs has a weird handicap that mesmer as a whole is handicapped or that other core classes deserve to be handicapped.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:I really wish I had recorded my 3333 condi thief so I can showcase how successful and easy it is.

Then record it, and if need be nerf it more. I really doubt anybody reasonably aware is going to let someone death blossom them to deat, but if you can make it work as reliably as staff condi did, I'm definitely up for shaving it.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:What I was trying to say is give thieves half the initiative and probably Sind will still win some matches. I'm fine with claiming that mesmers are fine based on the best mesmer around as long as every other profession on game is nerfed so hard into oblivion that only the best players can still play.

People are absolutely fine with pushing for nerfing thief builds based on Sind's performance, or based on how the build performs at high level. We just experienced that with the pistol whip nerf. It got hamstrung, and the bandwagoners left it alone. We are only talking about an elite spec of a class (the core of which still functions well enough), and not core mechanics here, mind you. Mirage having one less dodge to work with/My assertion that Mirage is still viable because a top player is doing well with it doesn't carry over specifically to core or Chrono. Those are different arguments entirely.

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Jazz is arguably the best Mesmer to have ever played the game. Coming from a not too shabby Mesmer here. The arguments go more of her trying to push a rather fortunate streak of encounters as status quo.

They're not status quo for mirage. Not now. But they could be if people hit the lab more instead of being upset they cant run staff and have a winning MU against most classes.

Speaking as someone reveling at the might of GS Wizard, at the cost of staff utility. Staff was always meant to be a utility weapon. Prob is, after the patch it fails at that and then some. If you look at her vid, they fought a scrapper... like...I didn’t see a single comp that made sense. Ripping on solo queue players and pushing it as content is just... low?

[apharma.3741]

Nice video as always Jazz.

@ArlAlt.1630 Jazz is best still playing most likely, Helseth at his peak was better if we're looking at skill, rotation, leadership etc.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Speaking as someone reveling at the might of GS Wizard, at the cost of staff utility. Staff was always meant to be a utility weapon. Prob is, after the patch it fails at that and then some.

Then can we do something to Staff that doesn't make it absolutely cheesable but still gives it some utility? The only thing I care about is ensuring classes in no way have an easy build that they can cheese for wins against players regardless of skill gap.

I didn’t see a single comp that made sense. Ripping on solo queue players and pushing it as content is just... low?

I don't get it. Overall the plays made in OPs post were pretty tactical and would work against premades in much the same way.But, even then, does it matter whether it was solo queue or not? Does OP have to fight stacked comps to prove the build works?

If you look at her vid, they fought a scrapper... like...

Does that mean anything?Even if it did, scrapper is potentially viable/usable right now.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Speaking as someone reveling at the might of GS Wizard, at the cost of staff utility.

Staff was always meant to be a utility weapon. Prob is, after the patch it fails at that and then some

.

Then can we do something to Staff that doesn't make it absolutely cheesable but still gives it some utility? The only thing I care about is ensuring classes in no way have an easy build that they can cheese for wins against players regardless of skill gap.

I didn’t see a single comp that made sense. Ripping on solo queue players and pushing it as content is just... low?

I don't get it. Overall the plays made in OPs post were pretty tactical and would work against premades in much the same way.But, even then, does it matter whether it was solo queue or not? Does OP have to fight stacked comps to prove the build works?

If you look at her vid, they fought a scrapper... like...

Does that mean anything?Scrapper is potentially strong/usable right now. There's another vid about juggernaut floating in the forums atm.

Ok I can relate to that.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@apharma.3741 said:Nice video as always Jazz.

@ArlAlt.1630 Jazz is best still playing most likely, Helseth at his peak was better if we're looking at skill, rotation, leadership etc.

I was never too impressed with Helseth. I did face him on my EU toon a long time ago, I felt he was cheesing more than actually outplaying.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@apharma.3741 said:Nice video as always Jazz.

@ArlAlt.1630 Jazz is best still playing most likely, Helseth at his peak was better if we're looking at skill, rotation, leadership etc.

This friend of mine played against Helseth too, not on a duel tho. He told me Jazz is miles ahead of Helseth.

[bravan.3876]

@"ArlAlt.1630" said:I didn’t see a single comp that made sense. Ripping on solo queue players and pushing it as content is just... low?

Did we watch the same video? I count 5 out of 8 Matchups were broken and clearly favored meta comps. The last one was not 100% meta with a DH instead FB but still favored as a whole. Means at least 6 MU they should have lost by comp vs ppl playing not bad. They also looked like playing somehow coordinated, at least they played together well. I would think there clearly were some duo teams on opponents side.As someone having an agenda vs nonsense changes to classes/specs, making them unnecessary clunky, killing skill ceiling more than adding some without even solving the balance issues of broken builds (like Condimirage still passive, still low skill ceiling) just overnerf not broken and high skill ceiling builds like Powermirage as a spin-off, i get your point of being afraid that video will be used as "prove" from our forum heroes that the nonsense one dodge change was good. But in the end the video is only showing that skill still matters and not that Powermirage is viable.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@bravan.3876 said:

@"ArlAlt.1630" said:I didn’t see a single comp that made sense. Ripping on solo queue players and pushing it as content is just... low?

Did we watch the same video? I count 5 out of 8 Matchups were broken and clearly favored meta comps. The last one was not 100% meta with a DH instead FB but still favored as a whole. Means at least 6 MU they should have lost by comp vs ppl playing not bad. They also looked like playing somehow coordinated, at least they played together well. I would think there clearly were some duo teams on opponents side.As someone having an agenda vs nonsense change to classes/specs, making them unnecessary clunky, killing skill ceiling more than adding some without even solving the balance issues of broken builds (like Condimirage still passive, still low skill ceiling) just overnerf not broken and high skill ceiling builds like Powermirage as a spin-off, i get your point of being afraid that video will be used as "prove" from our forum heroes that the nonsense one dodge change was good. But in the end the video is only showing that skill still matters and not that Powermirage is viable.

Oh I don’t disagree, but as you pointed out. This vid is likely to be used to push anti-Mesmer agendas in the future, hence the “I really wish you wouldn’t post vids like this” comment.

Edit: it is worth mentioning that NA meta plays whatever is most broken regardless the of class preference. We’re just lazy Americans making due. Now where the hell is my MAGA hat?

[bravan.3876]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:I didn’t see a single comp that made sense. Ripping on solo queue players and pushing it as content is just... low?

Did we watch the same video? I count 5 out of 8 Matchups were broken and clearly favored meta comps. The last one was not 100% meta with a DH instead FB but still favored as a whole. Means at least 6 MU they should have lost by comp vs ppl playing not bad. They also looked like playing somehow coordinated, at least they played together well. I would think there clearly were some duo teams on opponents side.As someone having an agenda vs nonsense change to classes/specs, making them unnecessary clunky, killing skill ceiling more than adding some without even solving the balance issues of broken builds (like Condimirage still passive, still low skill ceiling) just overnerf not broken and high skill ceiling builds like Powermirage as a spin-off, i get your point of being afraid that video will be used as "prove" from our forum heroes that the nonsense one dodge change was good. But in the end the video is only showing that skill still matters and not that Powermirage is viable.

Oh I don’t disagree, but as you pointed out. This vid is likely to be used to push anti-Mesmer agendas in the future, hence the “I really wish you wouldn’t post vids like this” comment.

Yes true, i will not argue with that.But before you said more than this, you said no comp that made sense, only showing ez deletion of bad solo players and stuff like that. What made me ask myself if we did watch the same video.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@bravan.3876 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:I didn’t see a single comp that made sense. Ripping on solo queue players and pushing it as content is just... low?

Did we watch the same video? I count 5 out of 8 Matchups were broken and clearly favored meta comps. The last one was not 100% meta with a DH instead FB but still favored as a whole. Means at least 6 MU they should have lost by comp vs ppl playing not bad. They also looked like playing somehow coordinated, at least they played together well. I would think there clearly were some duo teams on opponents side.As someone having an agenda vs nonsense change to classes/specs, making them unnecessary clunky, killing skill ceiling more than adding some without even solving the balance issues of broken builds (like Condimirage still passive, still low skill ceiling) just overnerf not broken and high skill ceiling builds like Powermirage as a spin-off, i get your point of being afraid that video will be used as "prove" from our forum heroes that the nonsense one dodge change was good. But in the end the video is only showing that skill still matters and not that Powermirage is viable.

Oh I don’t disagree, but as you pointed out. This vid is likely to be used to push anti-Mesmer agendas in the future, hence the “I really wish you wouldn’t post vids like this” comment.

Yes true, i will not argue with that.But before you said more than this, you said no comp that made sense, only showing ez deletion of bad solo players and stuff like that. What made me ask myself if we did watch the same video.

Read my edited remark. I’m sure it will shine light on my comment.

[bravan.3876]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Edit: it is worth mentioning that NA meta plays whatever is most broken regardless the of class preference. We’re just lazy Americans making due. Now where the hell is my MAGA hat?

5 out of 8 opponents in this video did the same. 7 out of 10 if we count in the 2 lost MUs obviously missing in the video.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@bravan.3876 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Edit: it is worth mentioning that NA meta plays whatever is most broken regardless the of class preference. We’re just lazy Americans making due. Now where the hell is my MAGA hat?

5 out of 8 opponents in this video did the same. 7 out of 10 if we count in the 2 lost MUs obviously missing in the video.

I’m still hung up on the scrapper :lol:

[bravan.3876]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Edit: it is worth mentioning that NA meta plays whatever is most broken regardless the of class preference. We’re just lazy Americans making due. Now where the hell is my MAGA hat?

5 out of 8 opponents in this video did the same. 7 out of 10 if we count in the 2 lost MUs obviously missing in the video.

I’m still hung up on the scrapper :lol:

Let this poor guy enjoy his scrapper :joy: Probably still better than a one dodge Powermirage

[ArlAlt.1630]

@bravan.3876 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Edit: it is worth mentioning that NA meta plays whatever is most broken regardless the of class preference. We’re just lazy Americans making due. Now where the hell is my MAGA hat?

5 out of 8 opponents in this video did the same. 7 out of 10 if we count in the 2 lost MUs obviously missing in the video.

I’m still hung up on the scrapper :lol:

Let this poor guy enjoy his scrapper :joy: Probably still better than a one dodge Powermirage

@"Jazz.4639" disagrees with your statement.

Evidently.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Oh I don’t disagree, but as you pointed out. This vid is likely to be used to push anti-Mesmer agendas in the future, hence the “I really wish you wouldn’t post vids like this” comment.

As long as the playstyle remains not-easy, those assertions should be shut down pretty easily.

Edit: it is worth mentioning that NA meta plays whatever is most broken regardless the of class preference.

This is the whole problem. As long as no build exists that is easy and gets results without having glaring weaknesses that are reasonably exploitable, any changes to mirage that need to be made are fine.

@"bravan.3876" said:I get your point of being afraid that video will be used as "prove" from our forum heroes that the nonsense one dodge change was good.But in the end the video is only showing that skill still matters and not that Powermirage is viable.

Clunky can still be viable. Viability and ease of use aren't synonymous. If they do the reworks to staff and scepter that you mentioned before, then fine; revert the dodge nerf.

[Daishi.6027]

@"Jazz.4639" said:about your concern that this vid will make anet think all is fine in mesmer land: i get that worry, but when you paid attention to the audio/ writings (subtitle) and intro, the message of the vid is clear: this change is insanely bad and makes no sense and needs to be taken back

I just want this to be nice and bold for everyone to see.

Had a good time with your vid tho, was a great time.

[bravan.3876]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Oh I don’t disagree, but as you pointed out. This vid is likely to be used to push anti-Mesmer agendas in the future, hence the “I really wish you wouldn’t post vids like this” comment.

As long as the playstyle remains not-easy, those assertions should be shut down pretty easily.

Edit: it is worth mentioning that NA meta plays whatever is most broken regardless the of class preference.

This is the whole problem. As long as no build exists that is easy and gets results without having glaring weaknesses that are reasonably exploitable, any changes to mirage that need to be made are fine.

@"bravan.3876" said:I get your point of being afraid that video will be used as "prove" from our forum heroes that the nonsense one dodge change was good.But in the end the video is only showing that skill still matters and not that Powermirage is viable.

Clunky can still be viable, is my whole point.

Just that clunky is not the only point and also not the most important point i made. But ofc being clunky is an issue, at least for ppl playing this class. Also because clunkyness often results out of nonsense changes contradicting mechanics. In the end GW2 is a game and a game should be fun, making classes unfun and clunky is never a good way, in particular when you can nerfs them in much better ways without such high costs in terms of deleted skill ceiling, less tactical deepness and lower mechanical complexity and more clunkyness. And as explained several times already: The one dodge change didn't even solve the balance issues of Condimirage, it is still passive and noobfriendly. It only dumbed down active and high skill ceiling Powermirage builds as a spin-off. Great change.../s

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@bravan.3876 said:Just that clunky is not the only point and also not the most important point i made. But ofc being clunky is an issue, at least for ppl playing this class. Also because clunkyness often results out of nonsense changes contradicting mechanics. In the end GW2 is a game and a game should be fun, making classes unfun and clunky is never a good way, in particular when you can nerfs them in much better ways without such high costs in terms of deleted skill ceiling, less tactical deepness and lower mechanical complexity and more clunkyness. And as explained several times already: The one dodge change didn't even solve the balance issues of Condimirage, it is still passive and noobfriendly. It only dumbed down active and high skill ceiling Powermirage builds as a spin-off. Great change.../s

Fair enough. As long as condi builds maintain a damage delivery rate around the level that they have now for any proposed reworks.

@Daishi.6027 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

about your concern that this vid will make anet think all is fine in mesmer land: i get that worry, but when you paid attention to the audio/ writings (subtitle) and intro, the message of the vid is clear: this change is insanely bad and makes no sense and needs to be taken back

I just want this to be nice and bold for everyone to see.

Fair enough. See above.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

oof didnt expect me posting the vid here will cause that much trouble... -.- anyway thx to all of you posting in this thread and for the mostly positive feedback, im happy most of you could enjoy the vid and my gameplay <3 ( @Azure The Heartless.3261 , @Daishi.6027 , @bravan.3876 , @ArlAlt.1630 , @apharma.3741 @Lincolnbeard.1735 etc).

[viquing.8254]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:I really wish I had recorded my 3333 condi thief so I can showcase how successful and easy it is.

Then record it, and if need be nerf it more. I really doubt anybody reasonably aware is going to let someone death blossom them to deat, but if you can make it work as reliably as staff condi did, I'm definitely up for shaving it.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:What I was trying to say is give thieves half the initiative and probably Sind will still win some matches. I'm fine with claiming that mesmers are fine based on the best mesmer around as long as every other profession on game is nerfed so hard into oblivion that only the best players can still play.

People are absolutely fine with pushing for nerfing thief builds based on Sind's performance, or based on how the build performs at high level. We just experienced that with the pistol whip nerf AND the shadow arts nerf. It got hamstrung, and the bandwagoners left it alone.

Whether or not that is always a good idea is debatable, but that's beside the point.

We are only talking about an elite spec of a class (the core of which still functions well enough), and not core mechanics here, mind you. Mirage having one less dodge to work with/My assertion that Mirage is still viable because a top player is doing well with it doesn't carry over specifically to core or Chrono. Those are different arguments entirely.

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Jazz is arguably the best Mesmer to have ever played the game. Coming from a not too shabby Mesmer here. The arguments go more of her trying to push a rather fortunate streak of encounters as status quo.

They're not status quo for mirage. Not now. But they could be if people hit the lab more instead of being upset they cant run staff and have a winning MU against most classes.

It's kind of silly how, when people push for nerfing a class, the first defense against it is "That class doesnt see use or viability in high end play" but when it does see use and viability in high end play the defense becomes "we shouldn't be balancing around high end play."

Now. If the nerf of -1 dodge is

too much

for mirage as a whole across, then I'm up for debating that as well. Don't go around trying to discredit players making it work though, or claim that because one of mesmer's elite specs has a weird handicap that mesmer as a whole is handicapped or that other core classes deserve to be handicapped.

Ok guy so :1) like I said on your whine on the patch anouncement about how fine mirage will be post pacth, I'm waiting to see your mirage performing. (ops, you need to create a mesmer first...).2) People don't whine on thief based on sind performance but, come on, if there was ever a leaderboard with the same amount of mersmers than we get thief last season, you would see a mesmer nerf mid-season like it was in the past. Thieves weren't nerfed during mid-season and EU leaderboard top 20 were around 50% thief ratio. Which is more of an argument than sind performance with thief. So just lol about your silliness seriously. Did we ever get a season with more than 25% mes top 20 ?

3) In his vid, Jazz play with the most performing combo mesmer can play currently thanks to the hudge condiclear, boon removal and CC pressure his mate put which make his build work. Even with that, his burst fail regulary to random opponent aoe/proc/CC. And despite the above explanation, there is many match where he don't get focused like it should be.With every other mate (work little with ele/fb.), you end up like in misha vid where opponent eat full burst and still win the fight because reasons.

@bravan.3876 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:I didn’t see a single comp that made sense. Ripping on solo queue players and pushing it as content is just... low?

Did we watch the same video? I count 5 out of 8 Matchups were broken and clearly favored meta comps. The last one was not 100% meta with a DH instead FB but still favored as a whole. Means at least 6 MU they should have lost by comp vs ppl playing not bad. They also looked like playing somehow coordinated, at least they played together well. I would think there clearly were some duo teams on opponents side.As someone having an agenda vs nonsense changes to classes/specs, making them unnecessary clunky, killing skill ceiling more than adding some without even solving the balance issues of broken builds (like Condimirage still passive, still low skill ceiling) just overnerf not broken and high skill ceiling builds like Powermirage as a spin-off, i get your point of being afraid that video will be used as "prove" from our forum heroes that the nonsense one dodge change was good. But in the end the video is only showing that skill still matters and not that Powermirage is viable.

Don't forget that he get many opportunities to burst and lock thanks to his duo boon removal and condiclear. Mean if you aren't in this situation you would take way more blind/weakness/cripple/condi pressure + opponent on stab/aegis. Ofc the lock timer and Jazz position are pretty awesome but even with that, when you see how difficult it is for a player who time his skill versus opponents who spamplay. Well we may all just enjoy the vids and get tips about synergy etc but we can't conclude that mesmer is viable post patch.

[Quadox.7834]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Nice video as always Jazz.

@ArlAlt.1630 Jazz is best still playing most likely, Helseth at his peak was better if we're looking at skill, rotation, leadership etc.

This friend of mine played against Helseth too, not on a duel tho. He told me Jazz is miles ahead of Helseth.

Tell us the name of the player

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Nice video as always Jazz.

@ArlAlt.1630 Jazz is best still playing most likely, Helseth at his peak was better if we're looking at skill, rotation, leadership etc.

This friend of mine played against Helseth too, not on a duel tho. He told me Jazz is miles ahead of Helseth.

Tell us the name of the player

Sent you a pm with the name.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@viquing.8254 said:2) People don't whine on thief based on sind performance-

They absolutely do.

but, come on, if there was ever a leaderboard with the same amount of mersmers than we get thief last season, you would see a mesmer nerf mid-season like it was in the past. Thieves weren't nerfed during mid-season and EU leaderboard top 20 were around 50% thief ratio. Which is more of an argument than sind performance with thief. So just lol about your silliness seriously. Did we ever get a season with more than 25% mes top 20 ?

I don't get what season distribution has to do with mirage state prepatch, or why getting patched mid season means anything about the current state of mes balance.

3) In his vid, Jazz play with the most performing combo mesmer can play currently thanks to the hudge condiclear, boon removal and CC pressure his mate put which make his build work. Even with that, his burst fail regulary to random opponent aoe/proc/CC. And despite the above explanation, there is many match where he don't get focused like it should be.

With every other mate (work little with ele/fb.), you end up like in misha vid where opponent eat full burst and still win the fight because reasons.

I'm not convinced. I think she got focused plenty. Even if this were the case, this was prehotfix of FB, Necro and Rev, which means her rotations/burst should be even more effective now.I'm up for making it more fluid/returning dodge if the current power level can be maintained in another way, but that depends on how intensively Anet wants to rework skills to root out passivity AND whether or not they are done tapping down other specs.

@viquing.8254 said:like I said on your whine on the patch anouncement about how fine mirage will be post pacth, I'm waiting to see your mirage performing.(ops, you need to create a mesmer first...).

I mean:

I have a mirage I'm learning. I don't want it oblivion'd, just not overperforming for years while people try to justify it.