The game's engine needs updates to modern standards

[Chickenooble.5014]

"This game runs worse than WoW" - No kidding, this game has a lot more detail to all the models, terrain and textures. Of course it's going to perform differently.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@rapthorne.7345 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:GW2 is entirely single core. The rest of the computer is almost irrelevant if you don't have a really good cpu, and even then, the game is only using one core.If you overlook all of the server side lag (wvw lag, ability lag), the performance is bottlenecked in the cpu.

my 6 core 12 thread ryzen 5 with GW2 running all threads at 100% begs to differ.

GW2's performance and optimisation is definitely a problem, but saying it only runs on one core is just plain wrong

I'm running a quad-core, and GW2 is only using one core. It was one of the devs (I'll try and find the quote) who said the game only used a single core.

[rapthorne.7345]

@Ubi.4136 said:

@rapthorne.7345 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:GW2 is entirely single core. The rest of the computer is almost irrelevant if you don't have a really good cpu, and even then, the game is only using one core.If you overlook all of the server side lag (wvw lag, ability lag), the performance is bottlenecked in the cpu.

my 6 core 12 thread ryzen 5 with GW2 running all threads at 100% begs to differ.

GW2's performance and optimisation is definitely a problem, but saying it only runs on one core is just plain wrong

I'm running a quad-core, and GW2 is only using one core. It was one of the devs (I'll try and find the quote) who said the game only used a single core.

if it's the quote I'm thinking of, they said the game software primarily makes use of one main thread, this does not mean that it's restricted to a single HARDWARE core

see here for a basic explanation: https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/349972/how-does-a-single-thread-run-on-multiple-cores

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I love the looks of the game and fid it impressive for the older DirectX 9 renderer.

Having said that, there could be quite some improvements to get some of the CPU load over to the GPU and single-tread load spread over multiple threads. But I understand these are difficult and complex changes to make which is the reason why these improvements are not here yet.

Just switching to DirectX 11 won't magically solve these limitations, so don't hold your breathe while waiting for these improvements. Maybe, one day...

[Lawtider.9024]

I'm aiming for at least 30fps. What reaaaaallly helps is lowering shadow draw distance, lowering amount of people displayed, and not having the fov at max (max fov really hampers down the fps. We all want to see everything, but lowering it, even a bit works tremendously).This is not a first person shooter, so your aim should not be 60fps. 30fps is workable.That said, with 4K going to get popular, UI scaling will become an issue that needs addressing.

[Crevox.5806]

@DoggySpew.4529 said:I'm aiming for at least 30fps. What reaaaaallly helps is lowering shadow draw distance, lowering amount of people displayed, and not having the fov at max (max fov really hampers down the fps. We all want to see everything, but lowering it, even a bit works tremendously).This is not a first person shooter, so your aim should not be 60fps. 30fps is workable.That said, with 4K going to get popular, UI scaling will become an issue that needs addressing.

There's no excuse this game can't run at 60 FPS. Even ignoring technical reasons, the fact of the matter is that this game's competitors easily run at 60 FPS and higher. Guild Wars 2 struggles.

"This game runs worse than WoW" - No kidding, this game has a lot more detail to all the models, terrain and textures. Of course it's going to perform differently.

At this point, I wouldn't say so. WoW has had numerous updates to all of its graphics over the years. The poly counts on the models have shot way up and they have extremely complex facial rigging, especially compared to Guild Wars 2. Texture resolution certainly isn't any higher here at this point, and VRAM isn't the concern. WoW just handles multithreading and optimization WAY better despite having a 100x more complex user interface with many players running hundreds of additional customized scripted modules in tandem.

[Fermi.2409]

@Ubi.4136 said:I'm running a quad-core, and GW2 is only using one core. It was one of the devs (I'll try and find the quote) who said the game only used a single core.

I'd like to see some a picture of that. Same as the dude with the 100% load on all cores, honestly. I've used an i3-3220 -> i5-3570k@4.5GHz -> i7-3770k@4.5GHz and I've never seen a fully maxed out CPU in GW2.

This is what it looks like for me, which I think is pretty standard:https://imgur.com/a/2K16TNothing really maxed out with clear higher usage on one core and the GPU relaxing

[Gulesave.5073]

Well, there's always GW3...

(No, of course I'm not just saying because I have a giant folder of GW3 ideas. How preposterous!)

[Helbjorne.9368]

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:I think a big part of the issue here is this:WoW is subscription based. They have a steadier flow of income to support engine updates. Granted, people could cancel their subscription at any time but it's still a more reliable source of steady funds than the Gem store. With the number of subscriptions they have, overall, they can still bank on a huge amount of money coming in every month.

FFXIV is made by Square-Enix who make tons of other games, so the company as a whole has a lot more money to invest in updates should they choose to. The subscription piece also applies for them, as well.

Those are the 2 biggest examples of MMOs with better optimization in their engine. I think a big part of this is financial viability. The time, money, etc. it would take to overhaul the engine probably isn't warranted at this point in the games life cycle. Also, if updating the engine costs too much money at this point, that could have financial repercussions for future expansions or, eventually, Guild Wars 3.

To be fair, I would gladly pay a subscription fee if it meant paying for consistent updates. I do my part and spend a fair amount monthly in the Gem store, but as you stated, it's not exactly a reliable or predictable income source for ArenaNet. They could implement what other games have done, such as ESO and BDO by making the subscription optional, with little bonuses as a thank you for supporting the company, such as an extra bank tab, extra bag slot, maybe a month Gem stipend, etc.

I, too, have spent more than my fair share over the years. I would welcome an optional sub, as well.

Apparently the majority of the community does not feel this way, but I figured I'd gauge the reaction to having an optional subscription implemented if it meant more frequent updates.

[Demeth.5816]

I just oced my 6700k and the game runs better but yeah. Still meh.

[Luclinraider.2317]

I don't know how you guys are having so many problems when I am running half the GPU power as you with just 1 1080, and have had 0 problems.

Even in WvW with a TON of players on screen, I rarely see a decrease in FPS. At least not a noticeable one.

Maybe you guys need to check your speeds, an IP issue maybe?

[Demeth.5816]

@Luclinraider.2317 said:I don't know how you guys are having so many problems when I am running half the GPU power as you with just 1 1080, and have had 0 problems.

Even in WvW with a TON of players on screen, I rarely see a decrease in FPS. At least not a noticeable one.

Maybe you guys need to check your speeds, an IP issue maybe?

Thousands of people complain about poor performance but yeah, IP issue... Lel. The game runs decently but should run waaaaay better. I have a 1080 and a 6700k and still have 50 fps in some raids.

[Helbjorne.9368]

@Luclinraider.2317 said:I don't know how you guys are having so many problems when I am running half the GPU power as you with just 1 1080, and have had 0 problems.

Even in WvW with a TON of players on screen, I rarely see a decrease in FPS. At least not a noticeable one.

Maybe you guys need to check your speeds, an IP issue maybe?

I have a 6700k @4.5GHz and a stock GTX 1060 6GB and run the game maxed @1920x1080 with no FPS issues in WvW either, but there are those with better systems than I that are having issues, so it may not be as simple as better hardware = better performance. I know there's actually quite a few games where those on lower end machines were getting better FPS than those with high end machines, BDO and PUBG being the most recent ones, although PUBG has addressed a lot of their performance issues. Engines and hardware interact in weird ways, and I don't have the knowledge to know why those things happen.

[Luclinraider.2317]

My buddy plays and only has like a 1060 and says he never see's a frame rate drop. I am not saying it's not a problem....my group and I have just never experienced it, and although we have decent rigs, they don't seem to be as strong as some of the people's here. However, we are all over 300 down 40 up on internet speeds, and are not encountering the same problems....so I thought maybe that could be the reason.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Luclinraider.2317 said:Even in WvW with a TON of players on screen, I rarely see a decrease in FPS. At least not a noticeable one.

That's the point. You might not notice, but it's still there. Your brain notices by the low framerate delivered via your eyes (and it's not healthy and can lead to heachaches and such).

15-25 FPS are not enough by far by today's standards (I am talking about events like Tequatl). Even in "quiet" places like Divinity's Reach I am only getting between 66 and 75 FPS. I get at least twice as much in action-packed 3D multiplayer shooters on my rig (which isn't the newest, by the way).

[fatihso.7258]

Performance issues arent related to your hardware. When you are really good for a long read, search this forum and Reddit for your answers. Because it is already answered.

[Ashantara.8731]

@fatihso.7258 said:Performance issues arent related to your hardware.

I know, that was my whole point. ;)

[Joxer.6024]

I think it was posted by a Dev somewhere that the cost to upgrade outweighs the gains so therefore is not doable? Something is server based as well and that a whole other ball game outside of the game client. So yea, I also would LOVE to see this game enter the DX11 world sadly I don't think it will happen as long as everything or most everything "works".

[Helbjorne.9368]

@Joxer.6024 said:I think it was posted by a Dev somewhere that the cost to upgrade outweighs the gains so therefore is not doable? Something is server based as well and that a whole other ball game outside of the game client. So yea, I also would LOVE to see this game enter the DX11 world sadly I don't think it will happen as long as everything or most everything "works".

DirectX11? Pshh, if they were to do a graphics overhaul I certainly hope they'd upgrade to DirectX12...

But as you and others have reported, apparently they said it would be too much work, an excuse so many developers are fond of these days. I don't see how they can expect the game to hold up to market standards for another 5+ years (despite having plenty of room for expansion within the lore/storyline, on the map, etc.) when it's already below market standards, especially if they don't intend to upgrade their engine/graphics. As another one of the developers stated, "the best way to increase the playerbase and keep the game going is through word of mouth," but I beg to differ; I believe if you provide a superior product than your competitors and appeal to those beyond the scope of your typical customer (through cutting edge technology) you'll draw in far more new players than you if were to rely on heresay from the playerbase. But of course, the former costs money (and lots of it), whereas the latter does not.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:I think it was posted by a Dev somewhere that the cost to upgrade outweighs the gains so therefore is not doable? Something is server based as well and that a whole other ball game outside of the game client. So yea, I also would LOVE to see this game enter the DX11 world sadly I don't think it will happen as long as everything or most everything "works".

DirectX11? Pshh, if they were to do a graphics overhaul I certainly hope they'd upgrade to DirectX12...

But as you and others have reported, apparently they said it would be too much work, an excuse so many developers are fond of these days. I don't see how they can expect the game to hold up to market standards for another 5+ years (despite having plenty of room for expansion within the lore/storyline, on the map, etc.) when it's already below market standards, especially if they don't intend to upgrade their engine/graphics. As another one of the developers stated, "the best way to increase the playerbase and keep the game going is through word of mouth," but I beg to differ; I believe if you provide a superior product than your competitors and appeal to those beyond the scope of your typical customer (through cutting edge technology) you'll draw in far more new players than you if were to rely on heresay from the playerbase. But of course, the former costs money (and lots of it), whereas the latter does not.

Dx11 would be their option for mass acceptance (since not everyone will have a Dx12 compatible gpu or OS), plus its easier to scale up from dx12 from 11 than it is to scale up from 9-12. If they went from 9-12 (keeping 9 for older players) they would still have to design to 9, which will impact performance for 12 more.

[Metavahn.7293]

Ultimate Gem Store Design: Sell overbearingly ugly skins and glowing wings to people for real money but force everyone to set quality settings to the lowest possible so the ugly trash tier gem shop armor doesnt show on anyones PC and melts your graphics card in a meta event

[Helbjorne.9368]

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:I think it was posted by a Dev somewhere that the cost to upgrade outweighs the gains so therefore is not doable? Something is server based as well and that a whole other ball game outside of the game client. So yea, I also would LOVE to see this game enter the DX11 world sadly I don't think it will happen as long as everything or most everything "works".

DirectX11? Pshh, if they were to do a graphics overhaul I certainly hope they'd upgrade to DirectX12...

But as you and others have reported, apparently they said it would be too much work, an excuse so many developers are fond of these days. I don't see how they can expect the game to hold up to market standards for another 5+ years (despite having plenty of room for expansion within the lore/storyline, on the map, etc.) when it's already below market standards, especially if they don't intend to upgrade their engine/graphics. As another one of the developers stated, "the best way to increase the playerbase and keep the game going is through word of mouth," but I beg to differ; I believe if you provide a superior product than your competitors and appeal to those beyond the scope of your typical customer (through cutting edge technology) you'll draw in far more new players than you if were to rely on heresay from the playerbase. But of course, the former costs money (and lots of it), whereas the latter does not.

Dx11 would be their option for mass acceptance (since not everyone will have a Dx12 compatible gpu or OS), plus its easier to scale up from dx12 from 11 than it is to scale up from 9-12. If they went from 9-12 (keeping 9 for older players) they would still have to design to 9, which will impact performance for 12 more.

True, I didn't consider the consequences for those without DirectX12 compatible cards. At this point, I suppose even Dx11 would be a welcome improvement. I have all settings in game maxed out and all settings in control panel maxed out, and although the game looks great for something that's 5+ years old, it just doesn't hold a candle to more recent games.

[Grenther.6853]

@Joxer.6024 said:I think it was posted by a Dev somewhere that the cost to upgrade outweighs the gains so therefore is not doable? Something is server based as well and that a whole other ball game outside of the game client. So yea, I also would LOVE to see this game enter the DX11 world sadly I don't think it will happen as long as everything or most everything "works".

This was a few years ago and was regarding only upgrading the dx version. As they said they were planning on doing near initial release. These people here aren't asking for merely an upgrade to the dx version. Rather an overal overhaul of the graphics engine and possibly if possible the threading (which might have a deeper rooted problem than just graphics engine).To be fair it's not weird that the community wants this; From a technical standpoint the graphics engine was outdated when the game released. Other MMOs have successfully done it (WoW, Runescape (multiple times, even with a total graphical overhaul, which is not what we're asking for), Aion (or so I heard), and several others).

Dx11 with Dx12 possibility seems most likely (as transition from Dx11 to Dx12 is easiest of any Dx version and adds the possibility to add Dx12 effects and optimization). Please do keep in mind that it's 'just' the rendering part we're talking about. Main game program, Audio engine, Physics engine and A.I. etc. won't need to be touched for this. Also we're not asking for a visual overhaul per se, so also doesn't require making extra textures, 3d models etc.The game will look good with modern effects, sure there's some low poly stuff here and there but I suppose we can all live with that :tongue: (could always be updated at a later time, touched up here and there every now and then either way).So all in all, it just requires some people specialized in writing rendering engines, shaders etc. (which is no easy task, but it doesn't take half a company)

P.S. I'm a Software Engineer. With some experience with game development including writing shaders from scratch and making a ray tracer (which hopefully with some improvements and technological advancements will within a few years be efficient enough to replace rasterisation in games, if you don't know what it is just google pictures of 'ray tracer').

[Helbjorne.9368]

@Grenther.6853 said:This was a few years ago and was regarding only upgrading the dx version. As they said they were planning on doing near initial release. These people here aren't asking for merely an upgrade to the dx version. Rather an overal overhaul of the graphics engine and possibly if possible the threading (which might have a deeper rooted problem than just graphics engine).To be fair it's not weird that the community wants this; From a technical standpoint the graphics engine was outdated when the game released. Other MMOs have successfully done it (WoW, Runescape (multiple times, even with a total graphical overhaul, which is not what we're asking for), Aion (or so I heard), and several others).

Dx11 with Dx12 possibility seems most likely (as transition from Dx11 to Dx12 is easiest of any Dx version and adds the possibility to add Dx12 effects and optimization). Please do keep in mind that it's 'just' the rendering part we're talking about. Main game program, Audio engine, Physics engine and A.I. etc. won't need to be touched for this. Also we're not asking for a visual overhaul per se, so also doesn't require making extra textures, 3d models etc.The game will look good with modern effects, sure there's some low poly stuff here and there but I suppose we can all live with that :tongue: (could always be updated at a later time, touched up here and there every now and then either way).So all in all, it just requires some people specialized in writing rendering engines, shaders etc. (which is no easy task, but it doesn't take half a company)

P.S. I'm a Software Engineer. With some experience with game development including writing shaders from scratch and making a ray tracer (which hopefully with some improvements and technological advancements will within a few years be efficient enough to replace rasterisation in games, if you don't know what it is just google pictures of 'ray tracer').

I figured the visual overhaul would be implied. I'm certainly no software engineer, I stay on my side of the fence with networking, but I assumed the two would go hand-in-hand. Even with an upgrade to Dx11 if we kept the same low poly models and low resolution textures we would just be putting lipstick on a pig, unless I'm wrong about that, in which case please correct me.

[Grenther.6853]

I figured the visual overhaul would be implied. I'm certainly no software engineer, I stay on my side of the fence with networking, but I assumed the two would go hand-in-hand. Even with an upgrade to Dx11 if we kept the same low poly models and low resolution textures we would just be putting lipstick on a pig, unless I'm wrong about that, in which case please correct me.

Yes and no, certainly a full visual overhaul would be better, but way more expensive. The benefits with what I'm saying it more pushing the limits of what's there, but also better performance, it might be a little bit like putting lipstick on a pig. But that lipstick sure looks fine on that pig. New lightning and effects on top of what's currently there actually will make the game look a lot better. (even more so than reshade + Gw2 Hook, think in that direction but better)In case there are decent heightmaps (which I can't tell) you can also use tessellation which would reduce the low poly on higher end systems if you turn it on.A visual overhaul would be the best, but the cost of that would be pretty high and it would slow down content creation (which I don't mind all that much but it'll probably mean some less income for Anet), it it something they should incrementally if a new visual engine comes along to better utilize it.