WvW feels boring now

Lonecap.4105 · March 5, 2020

@subversiontwo.7501 said:This thread like many other threads on the topic or otherwise shows how important it is to actually add some arguments to your oppinions. Discussing your oppinions is pretty pointless whereas discussing your arguments could be valuable.
The problem is that people are just blurting whatever they like out and there is no one around to encourage sensible discussion. That also means that if someone is trying to help you reach a sensible discussion those comments tend to fall on deaf ears or get drowned out in all the bleeting noise.
For example, since the patch I have both been hit and hit others with singular attacks that constitutes more than 75% of their hitpoint pool. That does not always include a fully offensive build on a full offensive target either (ie., zerk on zerk). If those are not facts that are heard in the discussion, the discussion becomes pointless. The @OP is then outright wrong. Thus the discussion has to be framed in something that is more sensible and not so easily disproven.
Also, I don't think any class was nerfed more than another for popularity reasons in this patch. Every class was "nerfed". All forms of damage were nerfed (but there is an interesting underlying discussion about power- and condition design and balance). All forms of healing was also nerfed. All forms of boon application was also nerfed (and that leaves interesting discussions about the balances of control) etc. Some classes were hit harder than others but in some cases it was because there is a paralell project of nerfing specialisations to re-enable core builds (ie., Mirage and Soulbeast were hit by their core-trade-off changes now). Other classes have not yet had their core-project changes addressed. Another side of it is that the sweeping changes impact different classes differently due to mechanics. For example, Hammers on Warriors lost more damage because it has more CC. It wasn't nerfed more, it just had more buttons affected by the sweeping CC change. Those things will be adressed over the next 6 months. Perhaps the Hammer will get more damage and less CC. Perhaps it will be denoted as a weapon meant for CC. Who knows?
Personally, I am no fan of the core project and I can see it growing to a continous balance concern (ie., some classes have been hit harder or deeper to their core than others in addressing what sort of mechanics are getting trade-offs; at the same time that goes for how they have been originally designed too). However, I can see that it exists and at least take note of it when discussing.

I discussed why I dislike the patch. The pace of the game is now Too Slow in WvW. In PvP it's mostly fine and the game mode has benefited a lot especially now that some outliers have been brought into line. But WvW is another story.

DeadlySynz.3471 · March 5, 2020

@bigo.9037 said:
@"RedShark.9548" said:Dunno, i still see plenty of dmg go around, they just need to nerf some bunker speccs, but wvw isnt supposed to be balanced around 1v1s anyways...

Okay then if 1v1 doesn't matter then why the kitten is mesmer being nerfed, ranger??? These classes got nerfs despite having NO ROLE in large scale. Explain that to me, thanks.

People always say "oh it doesn't matter cus 1v1 doesn't need balance" but AS SOON AS rangers can actually kill scourges and necros EVERYONE LOSES THEIR KITTEN and wants soulbeast nerfed into the ground.

Stop being a hypocrite. The EXACT same thing has happened to mirages.The argument is stupid.

Edit: holos got nerfed too. Why? They didn't have any role in large scale. So why nerf them?

Clearly, 1v1 and 2v2 DOES matter, so stop pretending otherwise. So I just don't understand why people think it's OK FB can be the best support in ALL pvp gamemodes (wvw blob, wvw smallscale , spvp) but specs that are total niche and are only "OK" at doing ONE THING need to be nerfed. What the frik is up what that.

1v1 or 2v2 or even small group doesn’t matter and should not matter nor any semblance of balance should be directed at it. Ranger, thief, Mesmer, engi (core & holo), and to a lesser extent warrior have almost no use inside medium to large scale compared to other classes effectiveness. But what do we see the most? Nerf ranger, nerf thief, and nerf Mesmer threads. So what exactly is the disconnect here with people? We clearly have people squawking from a roaming 1v1 or 2v2 standpoint in a mode that is built for large scale fights.

Any wonder why WvW suffers from balance so badly? Your right, people think it’s ok the FB can run around untouched while being the best at everything while classes that have no use and niche builds at that continually get nerfed. This makes no sense, but happens because players are continually complaining From a small scale fight standpoint.

Then we have people screaming damage was a problem, and it wasn’t. A full zerk player would barely dent a typical tacky target in WvW. So what does Anet do (the wrong thing as usual) and nerfs everything across the board.

The only thing they needed to do was gut the firebrand and leave every other class alone. That would have had a bigger impact on balance than all the steps they have taken thus far combined.

subversiontwo.7501 · March 5, 2020

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:I discussed why I dislike the patch. The pace of the game is now Too Slow in WvW. In PvP it's mostly fine and the game mode has benefited a lot especially now that some outliers have been brought into line. But WvW is another story.Sure, but that's how you feel and not necessarily how things are.

There are still a bunch of abilities in the game that peaks above 2k base damage and (before might stacks, 3x ferocity modifiers, additional hidden dmg% modifiers and debuff modifiers) that can smash someone's HP pool. The difference now is that they don't kill them two-three times over so that a choice building into some toughness actually matters. How you feel about something and what is possible to do are two different things. If you can still one-shot people or close to it (let's say two-shot for good measure and likelyhood) then the game can't be too slow, that's just illogical.

Then that of course means that killing a healing bunker quickly will be troublesome but those were never supposed to be easy to kill quickly and their healing has been dropped more than your damage has been dropped on average. By extension this may make it more difficult fighting 1vX vs. a well-composed party but this is an MMO, it is supposed to premier well-composed parties, and again, those were never meant to be easy to kill. With their outgoing down by more than your damage, perhaps killing their partners is now easier? There is more CC so there is more separation in/before downstates, ressing skills have been nerfed, invul skills have been nerfed, etc. Look for new approaches.

I'm not saying that this necessarily is you but there are alot of people who have grown used to playing their zerk/invul/unique mechanic types of builds that are now disappointed in the changes but perhaps that stuff needed changing? Perhaps their fun came at the expense of other people's fun and wasn't sustainable in the long run. That goes for things like roaming too, alot of people highlight it as something positive but there's a rather sizable grey area when it comes to the definition of it from scale to opponents. When they say roaming do they mean bullying zerglings or ganking or punching above their weight vs. willing and organized opponents?

If you're on a roaming class, pick your fights. Some of the roaming classes still have too much of an advantage in that so use it while its still hot. It will probably get addressed in the future. You can still drop most builds in a couple of seconds with the right tools. If you play in a small group, then it shouldn't be a problem to focus down even healing bunkers. Perhaps it was too easy before?

Also, don't get me wrong. My most preferred playstyles or types of content in this game is fight-havoc and zergbusting. Obviously those were both heavily affected by the changes. They are far more difficult to be impactful with now, but finding new ways to approach them is part of the fun. I'm just trying to get people to put their emotions in check and talk about things how they are rather than how they feel about them. I obviously have mixed feelings myself. My mere feelings are the same as anyone else's though, they aren't very valuable unless I can root them in arguments.

Aside TTK, the foremost argument for the changes is that it re-anchors more of the balance in gear, making gear choices matter more and hopefully class/build choices matter less in the long run. I'd rather balance the risk/reward of certain stats than relying entirely on my unique class mechanic. I'd also rather more fights either taking longer or shorter. Alot of the current discussion focuses on how extremely short fights now takes a little bit longer. Very little of the discussion focuses on how fights that could drag on forever are also intended to take shorter now (eg., Weaver mirrors).

It's much easier balancing zerk vs. minstrel than it is to balance stealth spam, evade spam, invul sequences and passives. That's why making some uniques less valuable is better in the long run than giving more classes class-defining god-traits/abilities to compete.

RedShark.9548 · March 5, 2020

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:
@bigo.9037 said:
@"RedShark.9548" said:Dunno, i still see plenty of dmg go around, they just need to nerf some bunker speccs, but wvw isnt supposed to be balanced around 1v1s anyways...