bring full party ranked q back

[NeedCoffee.1402]

Only if they get a separate queue.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Just so we're clear, there is a lot of revisionist history in this thread regarding win rates of 5mans against lesser opponents. Anet came out and literally said that their stats showed that premades actually lost more on average in 5vX than they won. People still weren't satisfied and complained complained complained, confirmation bias left and right. Meanwhile, my win ratios between seasons 1-4 where I was 3+ queuing almost all the time are at least 5 percentage points worse than any of my solo/duo win ratios, with equivalent or more games in the latter. So I'm inclined to believe that their statistics weren't bullshit and, like I said, people's confirmation bias kept stupidly blaming teams for their losses.

Season 5 hit and my group fell apart and we reorganized into mainly a raiding group so that we could actually do something together, unlike in pvp. The few times we have 5 man queued in unranked, those games have been hard as hell, because (surprise surprise) it puts you up against better opponents and groups of duos, trios, quads. We've also lost about 2/3rds of our 5man unranked queues, too, so I don't believe it for a second that queuing 5man is always an easy 500-0. On a side note, those games have also been some of the best games I've had recently, much better match making quality than anything ranked has offered me in the past 4 seasons.

[The Game Slayer.7632]

@NotASmurf.1725 said:

@The Game Slayer.7632 said:

@NotASmurf.1725 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@NotASmurf.1725 said:

@troops.8276 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:it always amused me that we went from people complaining about losing to premades to people complaining about losing because of bad teammates.

I mean I knew it would happen, but it doesn't make it any less funny.

solo queue heroes w no social skills will cry regardless of what actually happens. they will always want to blame their losses on something lol. why anet thought they could placate them, I will never know.

Is facing a premade as a pug generally a satisfying experience?

Is being mismatched into an under performing team generally a satisfying experience?

Would Anet make enough money to keep the servers open without us casuals?

That's nothing more than a scapegoat. In later seasons Anet heavily stacked the odds against premades, if a 5 man team faced a duo and trio then those would be several hundred ratings above the former. It was basically a handicap to play as a premade.

Still, this duo/solo restriction killed the community. That's when everything went to kitten, streamers left, teams disbanded, and people started caring less and less about their ranks. Killing teams killed the competitive aspect of PvP.

Banishing 5mans to unranked is ridiculous, it shoul've been the other way around. It's not fun to fight a guild team of 5 as new players (and in unranked full solo can face a full premade, in ranked that was not the case).

ATs are nice but they aren't a replacement.

I think you're pinning more than fair on duoQ starting.. As a steamer and person on a team like who you are referring, i left because pro league and LANS stopped coming

You left because Anet stopped paying you to play their game, I don't think your situation applies to the average player.

The average player is not 'competing'.Like me and every other top player has said in this thread before, if you want competitive 5v5's do AT's. If you want casual 5vX's, do unranked. What's the problem?

PvP is the most fun with a group of friends, especially ranked. Unranked is a joke, we're not here to 500-0 daily farmer people for no rewards and ranked is limited at duo.

So what's wrong with only having ATs? Well, not everyone can get their friends together at the times designated by Anet, and if you do but end up facing some top tier premade in the first round then gj that's it for today, enjoy your 1 single lose then disband till tomorrow. It's garbage. ATs should exist to complement team based ranked play, not repalce it.

You're acting like unranked doesn't have a hidden MMR. (You're wrong.)

[masskillerxploit.2165]

The worst decision anet ever made tbh. I know alot of you want duo soloq only but it stunts the scene massively.

[garkos.2973]

i think tehy should do a ranked soloq only + a ranked for any groupsize.

[Ashgar.3024]

@NeedCoffee.1402 said:Only if they get a separate queue.

People like the OP doesn't want that because of the insane queue times that mode would have, which is kinda telling tbh. There's tournaments for the super-duper hardcore crowd already anyway.

[troops.8276]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:Just so we're clear, there is a lot of revisionist history in this thread regarding win rates of 5mans against lesser opponents. Anet came out and literally said that their stats showed that premades actually lost more on average in 5vX than they won. People still weren't satisfied and complained complained complained, confirmation bias left and right. Meanwhile, my win ratios between seasons 1-4 where I was 3+ queuing almost all the time are at least 5 percentage points worse than any of my solo/duo win ratios, with equivalent or more games in the latter. So I'm inclined to believe that their statistics weren't kitten and, like I said, people's confirmation bias kept stupidly blaming teams for their losses.

Season 5 hit and my group fell apart and we reorganized into mainly a raiding group so that we could actually do something together, unlike in pvp. The few times we have 5 man queued in unranked, those games have been hard as hell, because (surprise surprise) it puts you up against better opponents and groups of duos, trios, quads. We've also lost about 2/3rds of our 5man unranked queues, too, so I don't believe it for a second that queuing 5man is always an easy 500-0. On a side note, those games have also been some of the best games I've had recently, much better match making quality than anything ranked has offered me in the past 4 seasons.

On premade v pug: how mm is handled is important. I wasn't around back then so I have no history to revise. I have no confidence in the current mm and would have even less if 5man teams were put in the pool. If we step back from the situation a little bit and consider the general principle of premade v pugs, it might be clearer why some, like myself, would be somewhat worried about how it may pan out. And also this post too;

@zinkz.7045 said:

@NotASmurf.1725 said:

@troops.8276 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:it always amused me that we went from people complaining about losing to premades to people complaining about losing because of bad teammates.

I mean I knew it would happen, but it doesn't make it any less funny.

solo queue heroes w no social skills will cry regardless of what actually happens. they will always want to blame their losses on something lol. why anet thought they could placate them, I will never know.

Is facing a premade as a pug generally a satisfying experience?

Is being mismatched into an under performing team generally a satisfying experience?

Would Anet make enough money to keep the servers open without us casuals?

That's nothing more than a scapegoat. In later seasons Anet heavily stacked the odds against premades, if a 5 man team faced a duo and trio then those would be several hundred ratings above the former. It was basically a handicap to play as a premade.

Still, this duo/solo restriction killed the community. That's when everything went to kitten, streamers left, teams disbanded, and people started caring less and less about their ranks. Killing teams killed the competitive aspect of PvP.

Banishing 5mans to unranked is ridiculous, it shoul've been the other way around. It's not fun to fight a guild team of 5 as new players (and in unranked full solo can face a full premade, in ranked that was not the case).

Not really, the PvP playerbase died long ago when most of the players who came to the game for PvP left within 18 months, the laughable thing you call the "PvP community" was the dregs left over, the few teams / streamers were only there for the money, once the money dried up, then most left. (which is why they have been bossting the numbers in PvP by bribing PvE players with shiny things for a long time)

PvP has continued to decline as firstly that is normal for a 5 year old MMORPG (in case you missed it the genre is not exactly booming) and secondly Anet powercreeped the classes/combat and screwed PvP over for PvE (which to be fair was the reverse for 3 years) to the detriment of the gameplay in PvP.

As for pre-mades vs non-pre-mades, it entirely depends on what level it was, low ranked then pre-mades would often get farmed because the pre-mades were bad / PvE players having a bit of fun, and they got put up against higher ranked actual PvP players who could simply outplay their low level of skill, even with the advantages of being in a team, but then look at the other end when you had a pre-made of good players, then they would just beat the vast majority of non-premades.

Which is why LoL brought back solo queue, because at higher MMR dynamic queing failed miserably, and that is in a game with 65 million players, hard roles, better communication for non-pre-mades and far stricter matchmaking.

Yes banishing 5 mans to unranked is ridiculous, but then so is putting pre-mades vs solo teams, but they can't add a 5 man queue, because contrary to the desluions of this thread there simply is not the demand for it, so the AT are a better way to handle that.

[LUST.2305]

Other games separate Ranked Solo and Ranked Team (Duo, 3, & 5), while unranked modes don't have that restriction.This game has a PvP Algorithm designed for pure Solo, but included the option to have Duo in that same Ranked setting.

Ranked Season 1-4 with full premades was as much of a joke as getting Legendary through Stronghold. Solo/Duo Leaderboard was added, but 3+ had no option other than Custom Games and Unranked. Automated Tournaments were added, now full 5s are happy. Now we are at the point where we need to split Solo and Duo.

Many forget how exciting it was getting on the solo leaderboard long time ago.Like others have suggested time and time again:

• Solo Leaderboard/Queue - 1
• Team Leaderboard/Queue - Parties of 2, 3, 5
• Automated Tournaments - 5
• Unranked - Anything
• Custom Games - Anything

Worried about population, queue times, and match quality this way?Well, like any other game, Solo Queue would be significantly faster and match quality will be way better. Solo Queue is almost always the most popular mode in any game.

Team Queue will be dependent on how many teams actually queue. In almost every game with Team Queue (no matter how "popular" you think it is), this has noticeably longer queue time and lesser match quality than Solo. The voice of it's popularity almost always is exaggerated and many devs in popular games have pointed this put. Doesn't mean the Team Queue is dead, it just means in comparison to Solo, there are less overall players. Competitive teams don't really Public Team Queue either, they have their own Custom sessions/scrims and just do Tournaments (but here that option is lessened ofc).

[Berserkeremir.4631]

Team queue shoundn't come back to the PVP Seasons game. Pvp doesn't have that much players for handling the matchmaking time and nearly all of the legendary players get their MMR with that broken system. İf you want fight with a team please join the tournaments

[NeedCoffee.1402]

@Griever.8150 said:

@NeedCoffee.1402 said:Only if they get a separate queue.

People like the OP doesn't want that because of the insane queue times that mode would have, which is kinda telling tbh. There's tournaments for the super-duper hardcore crowd already anyway.

I know, it's just easier to say "only in a separate game mode" than it is to point out the op enjoys destroying an unorganized solo queue groups.Of course he will use the talking point "but the queue times...." and of course it's a lie.Most people that want 5 man queues mixed with solo queues don't want competition from other 5 man queues. They just want chest thumping satisfaction of stomping unorganized players.

[Volrath.1473]

Why? So yoi can farm pugs which are the majority of players?

[choovanski.5462]

@Volrath.1473 said:Why? So yoi can farm pugs which are the majority of players?

you’d know if you’d bothered to read the thread before commenting

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Provide a separate 5 man Ranked Queue/ Leaderboard per season/5v5 Premade League Rewards, provide better Rewards through liquid gold, more Grandmaster marks in the league reward tracks for 5v5, more Ascended Shards Of Glory, more League Tickets etc. since 5v5 premade is more competitive than any Solo Queue this game can come up with, the better rewards will entice more players to queue up as teams which will lower queue times.

[garkos.2973]

@LUST.7241 said:Other games separate Ranked Solo and Ranked Team (Duo, 3, & 5), while unranked modes don't have that restriction.This game has a PvP Algorithm designed for pure Solo, but included the option to have Duo in that same Ranked setting.

Ranked Season 1-4 with full premades was as much of a joke as getting Legendary through Stronghold. Solo/Duo Leaderboard was added, but 3+ had no option other than Custom Games and Unranked. Automated Tournaments were added, now full 5s are happy. Now we are at the point where we need to split Solo and Duo.

Many forget how exciting it was getting on the solo leaderboard long time ago.Like others have suggested time and time again:

• Solo Leaderboard/Queue - 1
• Team Leaderboard/Queue - Parties of 2, 3, 5
• Automated Tournaments - 5
• Unranked - Anything
• Custom Games - Anything

Worried about population, queue times, and match quality this way?Well, like any other game, Solo Queue would be significantly faster and match quality will be way better. Solo Queue is almost always the most popular mode in any game.

Team Queue will be dependent on how many teams actually queue. In almost every game with Team Queue (no matter how "popular" you think it is), this has noticeably longer queue time and lesser match quality than Solo. The voice of it's popularity almost always is exaggerated and many devs in popular games have pointed this put. Doesn't mean the Team Queue is dead, it just means in comparison to Solo, there are less overall players. Competitive teams don't really Public Team Queue either, they have their own Custom sessions/scrims and just do Tournaments (but here that option is lessened ofc).

this sounds like the best imo

[Ziggityzog.7389]

..........

[Ziggityzog.7389]

Only way this will work in crap quest maps is 2 ranked ladders. 1 that is solo que randoms only and the other is anp party size 2 - 5. solo play solo Team play team. To be honest tho the only real fix is converting everything to TDM maps for some real competitive play.

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:the better rewards will entice more players to queue up as teams which will lower queue times.

Umm or not. I'm one for solo play only because that is real comp play. when you have 5 guys playing on teamspeak it's like counter-strike 1.6 all over again. Sorry forcing people to play with others isn't how it should go. In my opinion anet ruined pvp by giving out pve rewards. That was the strike that slowly bled out pvp. Real pvp players will come back once its back to pvp items for pvp wins. Pre seasons pvp was the best pvp gw2 had then seasons start it slowly died to what it is now. Nothing close to gw1 pvp tho, the devs could only dream about making pvp as good as the og guild wars.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@NotASmurf.1725 said:

@troops.8276 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:it always amused me that we went from people complaining about losing to premades to people complaining about losing because of bad teammates.

I mean I knew it would happen, but it doesn't make it any less funny.

solo queue heroes w no social skills will cry regardless of what actually happens. they will always want to blame their losses on something lol. why anet thought they could placate them, I will never know.

Is facing a premade as a pug generally a satisfying experience?

Is being mismatched into an under performing team generally a satisfying experience?

Would Anet make enough money to keep the servers open without us casuals?

That's nothing more than a scapegoat. In later seasons Anet heavily stacked the odds against premades, if a 5 man team faced a duo and trio then those would be several hundred ratings above the former. It was basically a handicap to play as a premade.

Still, this duo/solo restriction killed the community. That's when everything went to kitten, streamers left, teams disbanded, and people started caring less and less about their ranks. Killing teams killed the competitive aspect of PvP.

Banishing 5mans to unranked is ridiculous, it shoul've been the other way around. It's not fun to fight a guild team of 5 as new players (and in unranked full solo can face a full premade, in ranked that was not the case).

ATs are nice but they aren't a replacement.

I think you're pinning more than fair on duoQ starting.. As a steamer and person on a team like who you are referring, i left because pro league and LANS stopped coming

Having been in each of the seasons, I don't agree that it has been a handicap to play on a pre made in any of them. It has consistently been an advantage.

We differ on the definition of "competitive." During ANET's time of making "competitive" matches, ( in which you were punished for losing by being placed against even worse odds, ) I saw loss streaks of as much as 68. Others reported more than 100. Deliberately unbalanced matches produced predictably lopsided results. By contrast, I believe that for a game to be competitive it must first be fair.

I protested strongly when solo queue was merged with team queue. History, I think, will bear out that match quality has been worse since that time. Beside that, we see right now the effect pre-mades have on Unranked. It is precisely what we do not want in ranked. Heavy stomps and farming of solo players are not healthy ingredients for Ranked queue

[Kicast.1459]

Removing team q was a disaster going fully against logic.This is why I am 100% sure Anet will not take it back.

Rule number one: never go back on a bad change.

On a side note...I was a solo player.. and I had to blame myself only when I lost against a more organized team.The simple idea that it was just up to me to have a better experience in PvP was satisfying. Now, I can do nothing but wait for the random matchmaking.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:Only way this will work in crap quest maps is 2 ranked ladders. 1 that is solo que randoms only and the other is anp party size 2 - 5. solo play solo Team play team. To be honest tho the only real fix is converting everything to TDM maps for some real competitive play.

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:the better rewards will entice more players to queue up as teams which will lower queue times.

Umm or not. I'm one for solo play only because that is real comp play. when you have 5 guys playing on teamspeak it's like counter-strike 1.6 all over again. Sorry forcing people to play with others isn't how it should go. In my opinion anet ruined pvp by giving out pve rewards. That was the strike that slowly bled out pvp. Real pvp players will come back once its back to pvp items for pvp wins. Pre seasons pvp was the best pvp gw2 had then seasons start it slowly died to what it is now. Nothing close to gw1 pvp tho, the devs could only dream about making pvp as good as the og guild wars.

Lol Solo Queue is more competitive than 5v5 Pre-makes. Yeah ok. Because getting matches with and against Bronze and Silver players when in Plat 3 and Legend and vice versa is Soooo competitive.

Because all those complaints about people not being able to progress or show an accurate rating because they get trolls, afkers, or people well below their “skill” level and so on don’t exist at all. And how are random players in Pvp more competitive? Can you back that up? No? Sorry but there is more competition in teams in a game mode that was designed exclusively around 5 man premades.

And if a team loses guess what they can only blame themselves, and as I said it would be it’s own separate queue, leaving the Yolo queue players to do their own non competitive thing, they could even remove the Duo Queues from Yolo queue then with minimal backlash, because Yolo queue takes next to no effort.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

5 man is fine as long as it is absolutely 100% restricted to only going against other 5 mans -no exceptions.

If you aren't OK with that then you don't really want 5 man you just want to be carried by your friends to pubstomp solo randoms ...In which case you can kindly piss off.

[choovanski.5462]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:5 man is fine as long as it is absolutely 100% restricted to only going against other 5 mans -no exceptions.

If you aren't OK with that then you don't really want 5 man you just want to be carried by your friends to pubstomp solo randoms ...In which case you can kindly kitten off.

this is what we ask for, but there's always a few morons who come in here and accuse us of wanting to farm solos. even though anet gave us statistics showing that premades actually lost more than they won vs solos lol. so like, in reality premades don't farm solos on average. so it's a baseless complaint

like, personally I'm just sick of having trash teammates and only being able to play w one of my many friends. 5v5 team game w no teams fml

[troops.8276]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:5 man is fine as long as it is absolutely 100% restricted to only going against other 5 mans -no exceptions.

If you aren't OK with that then you don't really want 5 man you just want to be carried by your friends to pubstomp solo randoms ...In which case you can kindly kitten off.

this is what we ask for, but there's always a few

PEOPLE

who come in here and

REMIND

us

THAT SOME FOLK ARE REALLY JUST

wanting to farm solos. even though anet gave us statistics showing that premades actually lost more than they won vs solos

BECAUSE OF HOW MM WAS HANDLED

so like, in reality premades

DO

farm solos on average. so it's a

VALID

complaint

like, personally I'm just sick of having trash teammates and only being able to play w one of my many friends. 5v5 team game w no teams fml

fixed that for you

[choovanski.5462]

@troops.8276 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:5 man is fine as long as it is absolutely 100% restricted to only going against other 5 mans -no exceptions.

If you aren't OK with that then you don't really want 5 man you just want to be carried by your friends to pubstomp solo randoms ...In which case you can kindly kitten off.

this is what we ask for, but there's always a few

PEOPLE

who come in here and

REMIND

us

THAT SOME FOLK ARE REALLY JUST

wanting to farm solos. even though anet gave us statistics showing that premades actually lost more than they won vs solos

BECAUSE OF HOW MM WAS HANDLED

so like, in reality premades

DO

farm solos on average. so it's a

VALID

complaint

like, personally I'm just sick of having trash teammates and only being able to play w one of my many friends. 5v5 team game w no teams fml

fixed that for you

yeah, you added a bunch of broken english and labeled yourself a moron. very clever. congratulations.

idk why you find it so impossible to understand that some people enjoy playing with their friends and enjoy teamplay. like, I wrote all about it an an earlier post- which I guess you've just ignored. cool work.

not to mention that you've literally quoted me agreeing with someone who wants 5v5, not 5vsolos. I shouldn't have to spell out what that means, but considering it's you I think I'll have to make an exception. see, quoting someone who is advocating for 5v5, and then accusing them of wanting to farm solos actually makes you look like you're either a moron or you just can't read properly. I'm not sure what ails you, it could be a combination for all I know.

lastly, dude. I'm well aware that 5 man groups had an MMR disadvantage. I do understand that this was a contributing factor in their winrates.

however, to argue that in an alternate universe where this MMR disadvantage was not in play 5 mans would have won more so 5 mans do farm solos- is insane. it's actually an argument that's not based on evidence. it's based on imagination. it uses an imaginary scenario where you are right to justify your conclusion. pretty terrible argument dude.

you can literally use an imaginary situation to justify anything. because you know, you just have to imagine an example that works. the example, ie the evidence doesn't need to be real.

the point I was making, which totally sailed over your head- is a pretty simple one. when we had a mixed queue the community thought that 5 man teams farmed mixed groups/solos, and this was one of the reasons people voted to have teams removed.in actuality, teams actually lost vs mixed groups more than they won. so if anyone was being farmed, it was the 5 man teams. that goes to show that the 'farmed by premades' complaints are just like those 'matchmaker is out to get me posts'- they were just bad players trying to feel better about losing.

but anyway dude, the whole premade v solo thing is irrelevant if you have a team queue- which is what im after dude. like, either full 5 man or 2+3 as well.

so like. idk dude. learn to read? which, like, considering you're at least 20 years older than me I honestly would have hoped you could already do better than you can.

[Chorazin.4107]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:5 man is fine as long as it is absolutely 100% restricted to only going against other 5 mans -no exceptions.

If you aren't OK with that then you don't really want 5 man you just want to be carried by your friends to pubstomp solo randoms ...In which case you can kindly kitten off.

You could probably get away with much higher ranked trio and duo vs the 5man as well(or 4man and a solo higher ranked). Anything outside of this is pushing it tho, the main problem I see is you are just going to sit in a Q for ages.

The Q system could be more intuitive I guess so if you are Q'ing as a 5man it should display an average wait time specific to Q'ing as a 5man. The matchmaker program would have to do a quick evaluation of the Q pool and return an estimated time for your 5man. Are there any other 5mans? Are there any other higher ranked 4mans that it could attach a solo to? Are there any other higher ranked trios it could attach a duo to? etc etc.

[choovanski.5462]

@Chorazin.4107 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:5 man is fine as long as it is absolutely 100% restricted to only going against other 5 mans -no exceptions.

If you aren't OK with that then you don't really want 5 man you just want to be carried by your friends to pubstomp solo randoms ...In which case you can kindly kitten off.

You could probably get away with much higher ranked trio and duo vs the 5man as well(or 4man and a solo higher ranked). Anything outside of this is pushing it tho, the main problem I see is you are just going to sit in a Q for ages.

The Q system could be more intuitive I guess so if you are Q'ing as a 5man it should display an average wait time specific to Q'ing as a 5man. The matchmaker program would have to do a quick evaluation of the Q pool and return an estimated time for your 5man. Are there any other 5mans? Are there any other higher ranked 4mans that it could attach a solo to? Are there any other higher ranked trios it could attach a duo to? etc etc.

having like double the rewards for team queue as well as having 2+3 groups would be my go to. both are going to help reduce queue times a ton.

honestly, I think if the rewards are there, and there is a guild leaderboard (remember guild teams lol) people will play it. like, if the PvE scrubs can make a 5 man for a dungeon run then we sure as heck can for PvP.

feel like after a while of having the queue, people would start to realise teams are better than solo queue roulette. because we all know how much salt trashy uncooperative teammates and afks generates, and both of those are solved w teams. it's a more enjoyable experience overall.

so like, I still think the idea has legs. I do really doubt anet will ever do it tho. anet is anet.