A Carnival where min-maxing is made fun?

[Psientist.6437]

Being good at game-play is valuable. So valuable that the wealthy of skill become rich snobs. The rich and snobbish get in the way and given the chance I would gladly reprogram them. However! Their behavior should never make us so annoyed that we lose sight of good game-play's value. Rich snobs everywhere use snobbery to keep valuable things to themselves. Tyrian Git gudders are claiming a place.

My point! Being good with a class is broadly valuable and motivating players to learn game play and class mechanics pays dividends. Would a carnival that offered games based on game play and class mechanics be successful? Games could measure raw outputs of damage, damage types, healing, etc. Games could measure stacks of buffs. Games would be miniature, specific challenges. The carnival would provide a public space where min-maxing could be explained and taught in a fun and public way. A carnival would need a minimum number of games and I think there are enough specific challenges to turn into games. Rewards could be very small.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Psientist.6437 said:Being good at game-play is valuable. So valuable that the wealthy of skill become rich snobs. The rich and snobbish get in the way and given the chance I would gladly reprogram them. However! Their behavior should never make us so annoyed that we lose sight of good game-play's value. Rich snobs everywhere use snobbery to keep valuable things to themselves. Tyrian Git gudders are claiming a place.

My point! Being good with a class is broadly valuable and motivating players to learn game play and class mechanics pays dividends. Would a carnival that offered games based on game play and class mechanics be successful? Games could measure raw outputs of damage, damage types, healing, etc. Games could measure stacks of buffs. Games would be miniature, specific challenges. The carnival would provide a public space where min-maxing could be explained and taught in a fun and public way. A carnival would need a minimum number of games and I think there are enough specific challenges to turn into games. Rewards could be very small.

That's not the point of GW2, the players made it the point to min-max, the actual point of the game is to just play the way you want, but I don't suppose some kind of activity wouldn't hurt for people to have fun learning about min-max...oh wait, that can be done in the PvP lobby, though no rewards.

[Westenev.5289]

Seems pointless, since the only metrics that matter in 99.9% of content are dps, boons and cc. Traits are generally obvious if you take the time to read them (and very rarely need changing due to many unviable traits competing with strong traits), and the suggested armour has been berserker/sinister/vipers for years.

If you want to push min/maxing, you'll need to give me a reason to swap from my 3 year old fractal builds (which I take everywhere).

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Being good at game-play is valuable. So valuable that the wealthy of skill become rich snobs. The rich and snobbish get in the way and given the chance I would gladly reprogram them. However! Their behavior should never make us so annoyed that we lose sight of good game-play's value. Rich snobs everywhere use snobbery to keep valuable things to themselves. Tyrian Git gudders are claiming a place.

My point! Being good with a class is broadly valuable and motivating players to learn game play and class mechanics pays dividends. Would a carnival that offered games based on game play and class mechanics be successful? Games could measure raw outputs of damage, damage types, healing, etc. Games could measure stacks of buffs. Games would be miniature, specific challenges. The carnival would provide a public space where min-maxing could be explained and taught in a fun and public way. A carnival would need a minimum number of games and I think there are enough specific challenges to turn into games. Rewards could be very small.

That's not the point of GW2, the players made it the point to min-max, the actual point of the game is to just play the way you want, but I don't suppose some kind of activity wouldn't hurt for people to have fun learning about min-max...oh wait, that can be done in the PvP lobby, though no rewards.

There is a type of player that thinks great gameplay is maxing dps on a meter, and jumping into a blue circle at just the right moment. This has got nothing to do with gameplay.it's burning patterns into your muscles like an automaton. Great game play is a group of players who don't know each other adapting their gameplay to try and support the goal of victory and realising that it's not all about the perfect solution presented on a guide online, it's about enjoying a victory where the group wasn't perfect but they battled through and got there. Note raiding demands the former, which is why its such a poison.

[Zaklex.6308]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:Being good at game-play is valuable. So valuable that the wealthy of skill become rich snobs. The rich and snobbish get in the way and given the chance I would gladly reprogram them. However! Their behavior should never make us so annoyed that we lose sight of good game-play's value. Rich snobs everywhere use snobbery to keep valuable things to themselves. Tyrian Git gudders are claiming a place.

My point! Being good with a class is broadly valuable and motivating players to learn game play and class mechanics pays dividends. Would a carnival that offered games based on game play and class mechanics be successful? Games could measure raw outputs of damage, damage types, healing, etc. Games could measure stacks of buffs. Games would be miniature, specific challenges. The carnival would provide a public space where min-maxing could be explained and taught in a fun and public way. A carnival would need a minimum number of games and I think there are enough specific challenges to turn into games. Rewards could be very small.

That's not the point of GW2, the players made it the point to min-max, the actual point of the game is to just play the way you want, but I don't suppose some kind of activity wouldn't hurt for people to have fun learning about min-max...oh wait, that can be done in the PvP lobby, though no rewards.

There is a type of player that thinks great gameplay is maxing dps on a meter, and jumping into a blue circle at just the right moment. This has got nothing to do with gameplay.it's burning patterns into your muscles like an automaton. Great game play is a group of players who don't know each other adapting their gameplay to try and support the goal of victory and realising that it's not all about the perfect solution presented on a guide online, it's about enjoying a victory where the group wasn't perfect but they battled through and got there. Note raiding demands the former, which is why its such a poison.

I said some people would enjoy having something like that kind of activity, most won't and most won't care. Raiding doesn't demand the former, players that do raiding demand the former, it's all demanded by the players, no on forces anyone to do anything but other players, which is why a lot of "casual" people don't want to raid, because of the restrictions forced upon them by other players, not the game.

[joneirikb.7506]

I think a sort of training system/area could be a good thing for the game. This game is really lacking in explaining and teaching how to play the game, as becomes obvious when you can find players everywhere in the game that basically doesn't use even dodge, and spam auto attack, and sometimes uses healing skill when hurt. Because the game has let them get away with that, usually at least all the way through Tyria (though it usually stops, brutally, in HoT. Or they just bunker down and only do things in groups of 20+).

The game always did sort of go from Easy directly into Hard, there's no middle ground, and some people thrive learning that way, while others doesn't at all.

A "Training Camp" (Sergant Siegebreaker Sir! Teach me to DPS Sir!) could help people understand the parts they don't understand in moving from the Easy content (open world tyria and story) into the hard (raids and high level fractals etc). With lesions and explanations for how it works, and dps tests, breakbar's, active defenses, and what not.

It wouldn't really teach players to be better players, but it would clearly show them that they're missing something, and start guiding them toward learning what they're missing. Unfortunately this is also highly difficult, since it will be near impossible to make something like a training camp that takes all the different build variables into consideration. Example:

Do you:

• Run the DPS test with whatever build/gear the player has (example: mix blue, green, yellow gear with incoherent stats with little power, and random traits and all signets. BearBow ftw!)
• Tell the player to get a full set of exotic80 Berserker stats, and use "sample build" in order to do this task (Lots of players going ot turn up their nose at this, with comments like "I don't want to play that way!" etc)
• "Set" the build and stats etc for the purpose of the test. (In which case a large amount of players likely will never figure out that this wasn't their NORMAL build/gear! and wonder why this doesn't work, and that the test just sucked.)

Build help becomes even more of a mess, because of all the alternatives, and all the different ways to play for example Fractals/Raids. At some point you're just going to have accept that "Here's the wiki, read up on what the traits/skills do for yourself." is the most efficient way of doing some things.

On the other hand, this is just about Fractals/Raids, how the heck are you going to evne start with PVP/WVW ? Those require a completely different type/level of skill. I've often seen strong raid/fractal players flounder about like fish on land in wvw for example, and laughed my self off the chair watching my pvp/wvw guildies trying to do dungeons (yes, oldschool dungeons, and failing!).

/rant

TLDR: So much logistics and complexities that holds back from making a practical "training area" for this game. The best way to learn is likely still going to be join a guild that does it, and have them teach you. As always.

[Psientist.6437]

@"joneirikb.7506" said:I think a sort of training system/area could be a good thing for the game. This game is really lacking in explaining and teaching how to play the game, as becomes obvious when you can find players everywhere in the game that basically doesn't use even dodge, and spam auto attack, and sometimes uses healing skill when hurt. Because the game has let them get away with that, usually at least all the way through Tyria (though it usually stops, brutally, in HoT. Or they just bunker down and only do things in groups of 20+).

The game always did sort of go from Easy directly into Hard, there's no middle ground, and some people thrive learning that way, while others doesn't at all.

A "Training Camp" (Sergant Siegebreaker Sir! Teach me to DPS Sir!) could help people understand the parts they don't understand in moving from the Easy content (open world tyria and story) into the hard (raids and high level fractals etc). With lesions and explanations for how it works, and dps tests, breakbar's, active defenses, and what not.

It wouldn't really teach players to be better players, but it would clearly show them that they're missing something, and start guiding them toward learning what they're missing. Unfortunately this is also highly difficult, since it will be near impossible to make something like a training camp that takes all the different build variables into consideration. Example:

Do you:

• Run the DPS test with whatever build/gear the player has (example: mix blue, green, yellow gear with incoherent stats with little power, and random traits and all signets. BearBow ftw!)
• Tell the player to get a full set of exotic80 Berserker stats, and use "sample build" in order to do this task (Lots of players going ot turn up their nose at this, with comments like "I don't want to play that way!" etc)
• "Set" the build and stats etc for the purpose of the test. (In which case a large amount of players likely will never figure out that this wasn't their NORMAL build/gear! and wonder why this doesn't work, and that the test just sucked.)

Build help becomes even more of a mess, because of all the alternatives, and all the different ways to play for example Fractals/Raids. At some point you're just going to have accept that "Here's the wiki, read up on what the traits/skills do for yourself." is the most efficient way of doing some things.

On the other hand, this is just about Fractals/Raids, how the heck are you going to evne start with PVP/WVW ? Those require a completely different type/level of skill. I've often seen strong raid/fractal players flounder about like fish on land in wvw for example, and laughed my self off the chair watching my pvp/wvw guildies trying to do dungeons (yes, oldschool dungeons, and failing!).

/rant

TLDR: So much logistics and complexities that holds back from making a practical "training area" for this game. The best way to learn is likely still going to be join a guild that does it, and have them teach you. As always.

You are broadly accurate about the challenges and I certainly don't have answers for all of them. There are resources available to any player that is already committed to doing difficult group content and understands sharing the responsibility for group success. Raids, fractals and strike missions all provide top down incentive for players who are already willing to judge their own fitness in a public setting. Being judged in a public setting can be extremely uncomfortable.

I prefer the setting of a carnival over a military training camp, a carnival is a less competitive, less emotional place. Look at the responses to this thread or any thread about maximizing the individuals output. It is vitally important for a carnival or training camp to be fun and encouraging. How many players decide to not use training dummies because they want to avoid any PvP environment? Designing the games would be a challenge. However, a carnival would not have to provide all the productivity that a guild or wiki can provide. A carnival would take a bottom up approach; teach concepts such as skill rotation, buff stacking, combo fields. A carnival only needs to train basics. That being said, a carnival could have several locations with each location offering more complex games. Some thoughts on design:

Players have to select a full set of an armor prefix. A guild or wiki can teach about min maxing armor stats using a mix of prefixes. Everyone could be leveled up to 80 or be equipped with max stats for their level.

Games could provide personal best test/reward tracts and global best test/reward tracts. This would provide many opportunities for a pay out display.

Games could be solo, competitive and cooperative. The real world game of High Striker could be adapted for all three types. Solo is obvious. Competitive mode could measure hammer strike directly against hammer or provide a bar to fill and players compete to fill it on their turn. In cooperative mode players would need to fill a bar within a time limit.

It may be best or vital to provide only solo and cooperative games. I am learning towards vital, which rules out monetizing through the BLTP. A carnival looks only like a retention tool.

Rewards could be minimal. The place itself could provide reward through NPC banter. I think the impulse for this place, the reason for building it, demands the place be significantly different from other more stressful areas of the game.

Builds....is ignoring them an option? Lol. Builds will flow freely in chat. I would not underestimate how productively chat could teach builds. This comes with the risk of chat creating toxicity. NPC dialog and banter could help here. A NPC that explains the basics of builds would arm every player against toxicity. NPCs could even "host" build discussion areas, by defining a space and providing rules for civil discussion. Relying on chat isn't an ideal option, but ultimately, the studio's goal is to always leave build discovery up to us.

edit: Gear stats could be controlled by the individual game since most or all games would have an ideal gear. This link is an example of how the carnival can teach concepts.

[Ashantara.8731]

Perhaps not min-maxing, but a festival were new players are rewarded for applying essential game mechanics properly (like CC) couldn't hurt. It would be the replacement for the missing, much needed in-game tutorial.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:Being good at game-play is valuable. So valuable that the wealthy of skill become rich snobs. The rich and snobbish get in the way and given the chance I would gladly reprogram them. However! Their behavior should never make us so annoyed that we lose sight of good game-play's value. Rich snobs everywhere use snobbery to keep valuable things to themselves. Tyrian Git gudders are claiming a place.

My point! Being good with a class is broadly valuable and motivating players to learn game play and class mechanics pays dividends. Would a carnival that offered games based on game play and class mechanics be successful? Games could measure raw outputs of damage, damage types, healing, etc. Games could measure stacks of buffs. Games would be miniature, specific challenges. The carnival would provide a public space where min-maxing could be explained and taught in a fun and public way. A carnival would need a minimum number of games and I think there are enough specific challenges to turn into games. Rewards could be very small.

That's not the point of GW2, the players made it the point to min-max, the actual point of the game is to just play the way you want, but I don't suppose some kind of activity wouldn't hurt for people to have fun learning about min-max...oh wait, that can be done in the PvP lobby, though no rewards.

There is a type of player that thinks great gameplay is maxing dps on a meter, and jumping into a blue circle at just the right moment. This has got nothing to do with gameplay.it's burning patterns into your muscles like an automaton. Great game play is a group of players who don't know each other adapting their gameplay to try and support the goal of victory and realising that it's not all about the perfect solution presented on a guide online, it's about enjoying a victory where the group wasn't perfect but they battled through and got there. Note raiding demands the former, which is why its such a poison.

You can do both. Some players copy/paste and learn rotation/build it becomes their DNA but don't know that much the potentiel of their class and the others, wear blinders and dismiss the fault on others (which is not wrong in fact, if you're looking for a meta compo). Some others learn their rotation too and can read the needs of their teammates; like "they don't dodge the aoe/projectil/weakness, i'll take the wall over my sword of justice" or "it lacks fury, it'll take a shout over my personnal dps skill" etc.But there is a point; if you carry people to much and they still go bad ... or worse they start to ignore everything and expecting you to do 150% of the job ... it's a bit too much, You might be a great players but you should also expect from other to increase efforts, reach prerequisites. And sometimes a kick or a rage quit is also a solution; "Stop, it can't work this way. Come back later when you'll be really ready."

[Bladestrom.6425]

And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

[Rukia.4802]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Being good at game-play is valuable. So valuable that the wealthy of skill become rich snobs. The rich and snobbish get in the way and given the chance I would gladly reprogram them. However! Their behavior should never make us so annoyed that we lose sight of good game-play's value. Rich snobs everywhere use snobbery to keep valuable things to themselves. Tyrian Git gudders are claiming a place.

My point! Being good with a class is broadly valuable and motivating players to learn game play and class mechanics pays dividends. Would a carnival that offered games based on game play and class mechanics be successful? Games could measure raw outputs of damage, damage types, healing, etc. Games could measure stacks of buffs. Games would be miniature, specific challenges. The carnival would provide a public space where min-maxing could be explained and taught in a fun and public way. A carnival would need a minimum number of games and I think there are enough specific challenges to turn into games. Rewards could be very small.

That's not the point of GW2, the players made it the point to min-max, the actual point of the game is to just play the way you want, but I don't suppose some kind of activity wouldn't hurt for people to have fun learning about min-max...oh wait, that can be done in the PvP lobby, though no rewards.

If everyone 'played the way they want' which directly translates into doing 0 damage, then no boss would ever die lul.

[Dreams.3128]

Can people not raid bash for one second and actually learn mechanics EXIST? Hiding behind the 'I'm a casual' excuse and it is getting old. And I'm not talking about people that actually medically struggle, I'm talking about the perfectly healthy individual that legit does even try to understand that their combo of traits simply does not fit the bill and their building is not a one size fits all. You don't have to be meta, but sheesh understand you guys are taking unacceptable traits or skills that simply don't do anything atm.

I personally don't care how you achieve decent DPS, but just come to terms to the fact that your build is simply not up to parents. Blaming raiders and the elitists for your inability to be either flexible or reasonable has nothing on us. I see it in strikes, in fractals, and even in OPEN world.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Rukia.4802 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Being good at game-play is valuable. So valuable that the wealthy of skill become rich snobs. The rich and snobbish get in the way and given the chance I would gladly reprogram them. However! Their behavior should never make us so annoyed that we lose sight of good game-play's value. Rich snobs everywhere use snobbery to keep valuable things to themselves. Tyrian Git gudders are claiming a place.

My point! Being good with a class is broadly valuable and motivating players to learn game play and class mechanics pays dividends. Would a carnival that offered games based on game play and class mechanics be successful? Games could measure raw outputs of damage, damage types, healing, etc. Games could measure stacks of buffs. Games would be miniature, specific challenges. The carnival would provide a public space where min-maxing could be explained and taught in a fun and public way. A carnival would need a minimum number of games and I think there are enough specific challenges to turn into games. Rewards could be very small.

That's not the point of GW2, the players made it the point to min-max, the actual point of the game is to just play the way you want, but I don't suppose some kind of activity wouldn't hurt for people to have fun learning about min-max...oh wait, that can be done in the PvP lobby, though no rewards.

If everyone 'played the way they want' which directly translates into doing 0 damage, then no boss would ever die lul.

So, despite all the elitism, the raiding community basically sucks? They are, after all, playing the way they want, and so their bosses are never dying, according to you. Gotta love these blanket statements, right?

[robertthebard.8150]

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:Can people not raid bash for one second and actually learn mechanics EXIST? Hiding behind the 'I'm a casual' excuse and it is getting old. And I'm not talking about people that actually medically struggle, I'm talking about the perfectly healthy individual that legit does even try to understand that their combo of traits simply does not fit the bill and their building is not a one size fits all. You don't have to be meta, but sheesh understand you guys are taking unacceptable traits or skills that simply don't do anything atm.

I personally don't care how you achieve decent DPS, but just come to terms to the fact that your build is simply not up to parents. Blaming raiders and the elitists for your inability to be either flexible or reasonable has nothing on us. I see it in strikes, in fractals, and even in OPEN world.

I don't spend a lot of time bashing raiders, but I also don't spend a lot of time worrying about what that player over there in an OW event is doing either. I'm not chomping at the bit to make sure that they have the "Board Certified" build, with the "Board Certified" gear, and if I'm in a raid, dungeon or other group content with someone that says "I've never done this before" I automatically assume they don't know their way around the dungeon, and may not understand the synergies they're intended to have or create with other players. Unfortunately, as we can see from reading this thread, and countless others like it, the usual response is to rage at them, or to rage quit, usually loudly, and carrying on into map/guild chat about someone being "bad". Pro tip: If you don't want people "judging you based on the company you keep", ie raiders, then step up and call 'em out, instead of pointing at everyone else. I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall watching all these elite players learning these mechanics initially. With some of the attitude thrown around, and the lack of self awareness, such as the poster I quoted above, I can imagine that they were on the short list of "kick 'em, or I'm out".

[Psientist.6437]

@Ashantara.8731 said:Perhaps not min-maxing, but a festival were new players are rewarded for applying essential game mechanics properly (like CC) couldn't hurt. It would be the replacement for the missing, much needed in-game tutorial.

I almost didn't include the term 'min-maxing' in the thread title. I knew it would create a place where people trashed the concept of maximizing individual output or denied its value. However, building competency is right next to, or on the path towards, min-maxing. We can't avoid the topic by avoiding the term. I am not claiming you are, but explaining my thinking. If we ever do see a training area or in-game tutorial it will have to defend itself from elitist conformists and elitist rebels.

[Psientist.6437]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

I have never been into raiding, but I would wager that raiders dynamically select skills and practice dynamic gameplay. I believe you are comparing the emotional thrill of dynamically navigating through a new encounter to the emotion thrill of maximizing competency of a known encounter. I agree that they can be compared but think ranking them is nonsensical, illogical even. Why would you dynamically select skills unless you intend to maximize or optimize output? Concepts such as skill rotations are intentionally designed into the game.

I think you are making the same 'no true Scotsman/Tyrian' argument that min-maxing elitists use.

[kharmin.7683]

Have a carnival. Make it kind of like a tutorial. Don't provide rewards.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Psientist.6437 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

I have never been into raiding, but I would wager that raiders dynamically select skills and practice dynamic gameplay. I believe you are comparing the emotional thrill of dynamically navigating through a new encounter to the emotion thrill of maximizing competency of a known encounter. I agree that they can be compared but think ranking them is nonsensical, illogical even. Why would you dynamically select skills unless you intend to maximize or optimize output? Concepts such as skill rotations are intentionally designed into the game.

I think you are making the same 'no true Scotsman/Tyrian' argument that min-maxing elitists use.

That's not the impression I came away with. I came away thinking they'd meant that players swap skills/weapons around to find things that they like, and that work for what they're doing, whether they're in the "squeeze every 1/10th of a point of DPS out of a build" club or not. I recently rolled my first Guardian. I have no idea how I'm "expected" to play it, and I don't care, overmuch. What I do want is to be able to complete things that I start. To that end, I've tried almost every weapon type available, dynamically swapping to each to see if it's better than what I've been doing, or worse. When I find a set and swap that works for how I think it needs to be played, I'll start shuffling the utilities around, and swapping builds around to get what I need to get out of it. If, along the way, I'm a boon to have in a group situation, that's outstanding, but, and there's always a but, it's not my driving motivation. Having fun, and playing how I want to play on whatever class I'm playing is my main goal.

I am seriously considering rolling a new Ranger, and sticking with the core build, instead of either of the specs. Contrary to the min/maxers, these builds worked really well when they were endgame builds, and just because something may be a bit better, or even a great bit better, doesn't mean that they suddenly became bad. However, if you ask some, if that Ranger isn't a Druid, and is using their pet, they're bad. I've even seen "Rangers using a long bow are bad". At least here on the forums, I seem to see a lot of Rangers using long bows in the OW, and I know I use them too. Of course I also use an axe and a torch on one, and an axe and a sword on the other. One's a Beastmaster, and the other isn't 80 yet, but will be a Druid. I'll have to see what works when I get there, but initially, it's going to be Druid in name only, just like all the builds are, initially, since you've got to earn those HPs to unlock stuff. But that's just what my impression was of "play dynamically". Maybe you're right, I don't know, for sure. I do know, however, that whatever the current FotM builds are, there were players that turned their noses up at them initially, because they didn't conform to the then current meta. I know this because I've actually seen that attitude in play in every other MMO I've played where build diversity is a thing.

[yann.1946]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

I have never been into raiding, but I would wager that raiders dynamically select skills and practice dynamic gameplay. I believe you are comparing the emotional thrill of dynamically navigating through a new encounter to the emotion thrill of maximizing competency of a known encounter. I agree that they can be compared but think ranking them is nonsensical, illogical even. Why would you dynamically select skills unless you intend to maximize or optimize output? Concepts such as skill rotations are intentionally designed into the game.

I think you are making the same 'no true Scotsman/Tyrian' argument that min-maxing elitists use.

That's not the impression I came away with. I came away thinking they'd meant that players swap skills/weapons around to find things that they like, and that work for what they're doing, whether they're in the "squeeze every 1/10th of a point of DPS out of a build" club or not. I recently rolled my first Guardian. I have no idea how I'm "expected" to play it, and I don't care, overmuch. What I do want is to be able to complete things that I start. To that end, I've tried almost every weapon type available, dynamically swapping to each to see if it's better than what I've been doing, or worse. When I find a set and swap that works for how I think it needs to be played, I'll start shuffling the utilities around, and swapping builds around to get what I need to get out of it. If, along the way, I'm a boon to have in a group situation, that's outstanding, but, and there's always a but, it's not my driving motivation. Having fun, and playing how I want to play on whatever class I'm playing is my main goal.

I am seriously considering rolling a new Ranger, and sticking with the core build, instead of either of the specs. Contrary to the min/maxers, these builds worked really well when they were endgame builds, and just because something may be a bit better, or even a great bit better, doesn't mean that they suddenly became bad. However, if you ask some, if that Ranger isn't a Druid, and is using their pet, they're bad. I've even seen "Rangers using a long bow are bad". At least here on the forums, I seem to see a lot of Rangers using long bows in the OW, and I know I use them too. Of course I also use an axe and a torch on one, and an axe and a sword on the other. One's a Beastmaster, and the other isn't 80 yet, but will be a Druid. I'll have to see what works when I get there, but initially, it's going to be Druid in name only, just like all the builds are, initially, since you've got to earn those HPs to unlock stuff. But that's just what my impression was of "play dynamically". Maybe you're right, I don't know, for sure. I do know, however, that whatever the current FotM builds are, there were players that turned their noses up at them initially, because they didn't conform to the then current meta. I know this because I've actually seen that attitude in play in every other MMO I've played where build diversity is a thing.

TBH the longbows are bad was more a consequence of some people spamming their skills of cooldown in openworld and nocking adds outside of aoes. Which caused these people to be annoyed.

[yann.1946]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

You do realise thats also a way to play raids?

[Zaklex.6308]

@Rukia.4802 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Being good at game-play is valuable. So valuable that the wealthy of skill become rich snobs. The rich and snobbish get in the way and given the chance I would gladly reprogram them. However! Their behavior should never make us so annoyed that we lose sight of good game-play's value. Rich snobs everywhere use snobbery to keep valuable things to themselves. Tyrian Git gudders are claiming a place.

My point! Being good with a class is broadly valuable and motivating players to learn game play and class mechanics pays dividends. Would a carnival that offered games based on game play and class mechanics be successful? Games could measure raw outputs of damage, damage types, healing, etc. Games could measure stacks of buffs. Games would be miniature, specific challenges. The carnival would provide a public space where min-maxing could be explained and taught in a fun and public way. A carnival would need a minimum number of games and I think there are enough specific challenges to turn into games. Rewards could be very small.

That's not the point of GW2, the players made it the point to min-max, the actual point of the game is to just play the way you want, but I don't suppose some kind of activity wouldn't hurt for people to have fun learning about min-max...oh wait, that can be done in the PvP lobby, though no rewards.

If everyone 'played the way they want' which directly translates into doing 0 damage, then no boss would ever die lul.

Interesting since zero damage means they wouldn't be playing at all. Also, I play the way I want and do plenty of damage, without bothering to check if my set up is optimal or not...I've even rescued some groups doing a Daily bounty or some other boss from failure with that character...and it's a core Ranger Long Bow with Pet, but I also know how to CC down the Break Bar and when to use the Knock Back skill...a lot don't the appropriate time to use their skills and what they do, that's the biggest problem.

[Psientist.6437]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

I have never been into raiding, but I would wager that raiders dynamically select skills and practice dynamic gameplay. I believe you are comparing the emotional thrill of dynamically navigating through a new encounter to the emotion thrill of maximizing competency of a known encounter. I agree that they can be compared but think ranking them is nonsensical, illogical even. Why would you dynamically select skills unless you intend to maximize or optimize output? Concepts such as skill rotations are intentionally designed into the game.

I think you are making the same 'no true Scotsman/Tyrian' argument that min-maxing elitists use.

That's not the impression I came away with. I came away thinking they'd meant that players swap skills/weapons around to find things that they like, and that work for what they're doing, whether they're in the "squeeze every 1/10th of a point of DPS out of a build" club or not. I recently rolled my first Guardian. I have no idea how I'm "expected" to play it, and I don't care, overmuch. What I do want is to be able to complete things that I start. To that end, I've tried almost every weapon type available, dynamically swapping to each to see if it's better than what I've been doing, or worse. When I find a set and swap that works for how I think it needs to be played, I'll start shuffling the utilities around, and swapping builds around to get what I need to get out of it. If, along the way, I'm a boon to have in a group situation, that's outstanding, but, and there's always a but, it's not my driving motivation. Having fun, and playing how I want to play on whatever class I'm playing is my main goal.

I am seriously considering rolling a new Ranger, and sticking with the core build, instead of either of the specs. Contrary to the min/maxers, these builds worked really well when they were endgame builds, and just because something may be a bit better, or even a great bit better, doesn't mean that they suddenly became bad. However, if you ask some, if that Ranger isn't a Druid, and is using their pet, they're bad. I've even seen "Rangers using a long bow are bad". At least here on the forums, I seem to see a lot of Rangers using long bows in the OW, and I know I use them too. Of course I also use an axe and a torch on one, and an axe and a sword on the other. One's a Beastmaster, and the other isn't 80 yet, but will be a Druid. I'll have to see what works when I get there, but initially, it's going to be Druid in name only, just like all the builds are, initially, since you've got to earn those HPs to unlock stuff. But that's just what my impression was of "play dynamically". Maybe you're right, I don't know, for sure. I do know, however, that whatever the current FotM builds are, there were players that turned their noses up at them initially, because they didn't conform to the then current meta. I know this because I've actually seen that attitude in play in every other MMO I've played where build diversity is a thing.

I am confident I understood vesica, but I am more interested in something you said. I am not attacking you or your position. I am not a min/max elitist and approach personal optimization as you do.

" If, along the way, I'm a boon to have in a group situation, that's outstanding, but, and there's always a but, it's not my driving motivation."

You clearly understand the value of optimizing personal competency. Do you place a competency threshold on yourself before engaging in group content, especially where group size is limited? Do you recognize the middle ground between pathological build conformity and pathological build rebelliousness? I think you do. I think most people do and yet we keep getting stuck debating from pathological positions.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Psientist.6437 said:

@"Ashantara.8731" said:Perhaps not min-maxing, but a festival were new players are rewarded for applying essential game mechanics properly (like CC) couldn't hurt. It would be the replacement for the missing, much needed in-game tutorial.

I almost didn't include the term 'min-maxing' in the thread title. I knew it would create a place where people trashed the concept of maximizing individual output or denied its value. However, building competency is right next to, or on the path towards, min-maxing. We can't avoid the topic by avoiding the term. I am not claiming you are, but explaining my thinking. If we ever do see a training area or in-game tutorial it will have to defend itself from elitist conformists and elitist rebels.

I dunno what you're talking about but "Min-maxing" is not the same as "good enough". Maximizing individual output, isn't the same as simply defeating the obstacle in front of you. You can easily have had this discussion without talking about min maxing, if your only goal is to teach players how to be better players.

[Naxos.2503]

I dont particularly have fun min-maxing. I prefer experimentation and underdog tactics. That said, I'm not overtly hostile to the idea of challenges for specific classes provided : 1) There be Multiple ways to win, and not just Have-The-Biggest-Number-Of-X / 2) They not be made into a festival/carnival as you mentionned. Min-Maxing is Not how most players play the game. Festivals are broad events catering the larger crowd, they can include and they're starting to include elements of Min-Maxing. but should never be the focus, otherwise it would alienate most of the players.

My personal opinion ? Tie those ideas to the Queen's Pavillion's Gauntlet festival. There are many cage rings, and maybe one could be repurposed into challenges for a specific class at a time. It would thematically fit as well.

[Psientist.6437]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:

@"Ashantara.8731" said:Perhaps not min-maxing, but a festival were new players are rewarded for applying essential game mechanics properly (like CC) couldn't hurt. It would be the replacement for the missing, much needed in-game tutorial.

I almost didn't include the term 'min-maxing' in the thread title. I knew it would create a place where people trashed the concept of maximizing individual output or denied its value. However, building competency is right next to, or on the path towards, min-maxing. We can't avoid the topic by avoiding the term. I am not claiming you are, but explaining my thinking. If we ever do see a training area or in-game tutorial it will have to defend itself from elitist conformists and elitist rebels.

I dunno what you're talking about but "Min-maxing" is not the same as "good enough". Maximizing individual output, isn't the same as simply defeating the obstacle in front of you. You can easily have had this discussion without talking about min maxing, if your only goal is to teach players how to be better players.

I could have not used the term min maxing. However, the concept would still be there. Any approach to providing a place where players can learn and teach how to be better players would have to include target dummies or other devices that makes min maxing possible and therefore inevitable. Number thresholds are not the exclusively important aspect of competency but we are in trouble if we can't talk positively about hitting the highest number and learning how to hit higher numbers in the same sentence.