Pistol thief

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"Poledra Val.1490" said:Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment.

It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build.

people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing

^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief.

Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all.

The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game.

No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur.

Couldn’t the same be said about a ton of other builds though? Is the problem that it’s efficient against too many builds? At most I would say leave the damage the same and remove some of the cover conditions so it’s easier to get the poison. But the main burst comes from the initial attack with venom utility applied.

And if they’re running thieves guild with poison share, then yes, there’s little you can do other than cleave they thieves guild down or try to kite. But thieves guild even on a power build is pretty strong.

To be honest though, you can build a chrono to play pretty similarly.

This build is kind of necessary in this meta though as a thief to be able to be efficient against bunkers. And in high level gameplay I doubt this build is that much of an issue. It’s still heavily dependent on having a good team and if you’re running core you’re sacrificing mobility.

there is couple of things wrong with the build.1 it can duel people as the most mobile build in the game bar other thief.2 it can 100%-0% people instantly from stealth unless they have cleanse that can bypass their cover condis, and the slower you are to cleanse the more cover you have to go through.3 poison share is whacky with AI, giving 18 stacks of poison to AI that persists for 30s is stupid level of area denial. I honestly dont even think thief would use the poison if the AI wouldnt be so broken with it.4 It makes every build without insta burst condi clear unplayable, its not like condi mes where you can avoid their burst due to torch 4 delay or keeping distance from clones to not get mass F2 shattered, you give ground but you are safe. No thief gains 15s stealth and at any moment he can jump on you from 1200 range and apply this level of damage.5 all the while it can 1v1, chase people down and bully specific builds it still is very good +1 build, perma poison reduces healing, landing steal deals massive damage and as for utility they can spam the immob to shut down escape, all the while applying some damage, and even if you have good cleanseing, constant immob spam will force it out of you unless you have some VERY specific way of escaping.the only class I know that has good burst clear to contest this type of build is warrior due to shake it off and low CD mass cleanse healing skill, but warrior is in a bad spot and to top it off they cant reach thief anyways.

1) Ok so it can duel. That isn’t really a reason to nerf it. Plenty of these flavor of the month thieves are not winning those duels, however.

2) The cover condi isn’t particularly long duration. Mass cleanse of 4-5 will probably get rid of most of it.

3) Totally agree here. I’ve said for years that Spider Venom sharing is hard to balance. Six stacks is a lot but manageable. 18-30 stacks with a few human allies, or paired with a Mesmer + clones, and suddenly you are insanely powerful in spike damage. So yeah, the Thieves Guild version is actually much weaker than duo’ed with a condi Mesmer who coordinates with the venom share. A minion necro can also be a good teammate for this kind of gameplay.

4) I’d disagree about the need to burst cleanse yourself in all cases. There are several builds that draw condi onto themselves and then mass cleanse. Team play, generally, is the solution to a build that shines most when sharing venoms to its own team. Solo 1v1, you should have enough cleanse to handle the burst of condi or something to cleave down the Thieves Guild (part of the problem here is power might have been nerfed a little too much and now Thieves Guild just has a lot of HP, maybe too much).

5) Steal actually applies that poison, when traited, over a long period. The tick damage isn’t that much. The immobilize spam is on a super slow projectile that can be strafed rather easily. Don’t run in a straight line and you won’t get hit over 500 range.

6) Good warriors are actually best able to gap close then stun. The key is baiting the Shadowstep and then kiting in the opposite direction. They will just Shadow Return if you chase them at that point. They will probably go the full 1200 with Shadowstep so moving in the opposite direction puts you out of range of Steal. If they chase you then they will have lost two stun breaks and a huge part of their in combat mobility. Not only warrior can take advantage of that btw, Ranger variants with GS can use the mobility and blocking to gap close when it makes sense and put lots of pressure on the thief.

Bonus: if they tried to gank you after stealthing for a long duration they probably won’t have any stealth available to escape with if they aren’t able to pull off the kill.

~ Just quoting this whole thing to get everyone's name in here for mention.

Ok so, going more into detail about my previous comment:

1. It has way too much stealth. The frequency of stealth application and the uptime of those stealths is way too much. It allows this build to appear, land a huge burst and immediately vanish/teleport play away, rinse/repeat do the same thing again.
   Builds that do not have reveal or teleport or even both, have little to no opening at all to even land damage on the Thief.

Yeah, except it cant. Its stealth applications are actually

extremely

limited. It has 3. Hide in Shadows. 1 second cast time, easily stopped. Shadows Refuge. Requires hte thief to stay in it for the entire duration. Easily AoE bombed. And Cloak and Dagger. Requires melee range, easily visible animation, extremely initiative inefficient. You can just stop him from hitting you and he wastes 6 initiative that he couldve dumped into repeater. And even

if

he stealths up, he is in melee range. You can just cleave him down and he cant fight back. As a result, there is

no

build that has few or no openings to land damage on the thief. Every build can easily land damage on the thief. Until he runs away.

2. You can't effectively use LOS against P/D in the same way you could a DE or Ranger Longbow. This is because the P/D Thief is not only stealthing constantly to confuse you as to where the hell it is actually at, but it is also using teleport spam play to be able to get around the LOS easily, even when you are LOSing.
   So this build has some mechanics in play that allow it to get around a fundamentally important technique that builds require to effectively counter play ranged. So here, unless a build has A LOT of similar disengage mobility like ground target teleports or stealthing or mobility skills to stay moving, it becomes a sitting duck that is going to lose in time to the P/D, no question about it.
   Of course reflects and other defensive utilities matter, but unless a build is essentially maximized around these sorts of things, the P/D is currently pumping out way too much damage too frequently for even bunkers to sustain.

As stated above, the thief has no method through which he can use stealth to confuse you where he is at. He wont even be using stealth, other than to immediately sneak attack. The build also has no "teleport spam" that allows to get around LoS. While in the pistol form, the only way it can teleport is if it goes up close and uses shadowstrike. However, that only teleports them directly backwards. If you LoS them, they stay LoSd.

3. And then finally, the damage burst output is too much for how frequent it is. I mean seriously, this build is pumping out a ridiculous amount of actual DPS. The hilarious thing is that we aren't talking just "burst" here. No, this build has a rather extreme amount of sustained damage output.

Yeah thats condi builds for you. If you cant cleanse, their DPS and burst is absurd. But you can. So its not.

So yeah, going back into what I was saying in the original comment. There simply are not enough classes/builds in play right now that can meet the current patching of P/D on an even level field, to justify how powerful that patching currently is.

Almost all of them can. Thief ironically is one of the only 2 classes that should have problems against D/P even if built against it.

No offense man, but lately the posts you make, I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

I guess it would be wise to not engage in this discussion.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"Poledra Val.1490" said:Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment.

It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build.

people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing

^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief.

Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all.

The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game.

No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur.

Couldn’t the same be said about a ton of other builds though? Is the problem that it’s efficient against too many builds? At most I would say leave the damage the same and remove some of the cover conditions so it’s easier to get the poison. But the main burst comes from the initial attack with venom utility applied.

And if they’re running thieves guild with poison share, then yes, there’s little you can do other than cleave they thieves guild down or try to kite. But thieves guild even on a power build is pretty strong.

To be honest though, you can build a chrono to play pretty similarly.

This build is kind of necessary in this meta though as a thief to be able to be efficient against bunkers. And in high level gameplay I doubt this build is that much of an issue. It’s still heavily dependent on having a good team and if you’re running core you’re sacrificing mobility.

there is couple of things wrong with the build.1 it can duel people as the most mobile build in the game bar other thief.2 it can 100%-0% people instantly from stealth unless they have cleanse that can bypass their cover condis, and the slower you are to cleanse the more cover you have to go through.3 poison share is whacky with AI, giving 18 stacks of poison to AI that persists for 30s is stupid level of area denial. I honestly dont even think thief would use the poison if the AI wouldnt be so broken with it.4 It makes every build without insta burst condi clear unplayable, its not like condi mes where you can avoid their burst due to torch 4 delay or keeping distance from clones to not get mass F2 shattered, you give ground but you are safe. No thief gains 15s stealth and at any moment he can jump on you from 1200 range and apply this level of damage.5 all the while it can 1v1, chase people down and bully specific builds it still is very good +1 build, perma poison reduces healing, landing steal deals massive damage and as for utility they can spam the immob to shut down escape, all the while applying some damage, and even if you have good cleanseing, constant immob spam will force it out of you unless you have some VERY specific way of escaping.the only class I know that has good burst clear to contest this type of build is warrior due to shake it off and low CD mass cleanse healing skill, but warrior is in a bad spot and to top it off they cant reach thief anyways.

1) Ok so it can duel. That isn’t really a reason to nerf it. Plenty of these flavor of the month thieves are not winning those duels, however.

2) The cover condi isn’t particularly long duration. Mass cleanse of 4-5 will probably get rid of most of it.

3) Totally agree here. I’ve said for years that Spider Venom sharing is hard to balance. Six stacks is a lot but manageable. 18-30 stacks with a few human allies, or paired with a Mesmer + clones, and suddenly you are insanely powerful in spike damage. So yeah, the Thieves Guild version is actually much weaker than duo’ed with a condi Mesmer who coordinates with the venom share. A minion necro can also be a good teammate for this kind of gameplay.

4) I’d disagree about the need to burst cleanse yourself in all cases. There are several builds that draw condi onto themselves and then mass cleanse. Team play, generally, is the solution to a build that shines most when sharing venoms to its own team. Solo 1v1, you should have enough cleanse to handle the burst of condi or something to cleave down the Thieves Guild (part of the problem here is power might have been nerfed a little too much and now Thieves Guild just has a lot of HP, maybe too much).

5) Steal actually applies that poison, when traited, over a long period. The tick damage isn’t that much. The immobilize spam is on a super slow projectile that can be strafed rather easily. Don’t run in a straight line and you won’t get hit over 500 range.

6) Good warriors are actually best able to gap close then stun. The key is baiting the Shadowstep and then kiting in the opposite direction. They will just Shadow Return if you chase them at that point. They will probably go the full 1200 with Shadowstep so moving in the opposite direction puts you out of range of Steal. If they chase you then they will have lost two stun breaks and a huge part of their in combat mobility. Not only warrior can take advantage of that btw, Ranger variants with GS can use the mobility and blocking to gap close when it makes sense and put lots of pressure on the thief.

Bonus: if they tried to gank you after stealthing for a long duration they probably won’t have any stealth available to escape with if they aren’t able to pull off the kill.

~ Just quoting this whole thing to get everyone's name in here for mention.

Ok so, going more into detail about my previous comment:

1. It has way too much stealth. The frequency of stealth application and the uptime of those stealths is way too much. It allows this build to appear, land a huge burst and immediately vanish/teleport play away, rinse/repeat do the same thing again.
   Builds that do not have reveal or teleport or even both, have little to no opening at all to even land damage on the Thief.

Yeah, except it cant. Its stealth applications are actually

extremely

limited. It has 3. Hide in Shadows. 1 second cast time, easily stopped. Shadows Refuge. Requires hte thief to stay in it for the entire duration. Easily AoE bombed. And Cloak and Dagger. Requires melee range, easily visible animation, extremely initiative inefficient. You can just stop him from hitting you and he wastes 6 initiative that he couldve dumped into repeater. And even

if

he stealths up, he is in melee range. You can just cleave him down and he cant fight back. As a result, there is

no

build that has few or no openings to land damage on the thief. Every build can easily land damage on the thief. Until he runs away.

2. You can't effectively use LOS against P/D in the same way you could a DE or Ranger Longbow. This is because the P/D Thief is not only stealthing constantly to confuse you as to where the hell it is actually at, but it is also using teleport spam play to be able to get around the LOS easily, even when you are LOSing.
   So this build has some mechanics in play that allow it to get around a fundamentally important technique that builds require to effectively counter play ranged. So here, unless a build has A LOT of similar disengage mobility like ground target teleports or stealthing or mobility skills to stay moving, it becomes a sitting duck that is going to lose in time to the P/D, no question about it.
   Of course reflects and other defensive utilities matter, but unless a build is essentially maximized around these sorts of things, the P/D is currently pumping out way too much damage too frequently for even bunkers to sustain.

As stated above, the thief has no method through which he can use stealth to confuse you where he is at. He wont even be using stealth, other than to immediately sneak attack. The build also has no "teleport spam" that allows to get around LoS. While in the pistol form, the only way it can teleport is if it goes up close and uses shadowstrike. However, that only teleports them directly backwards. If you LoS them, they stay LoSd.

3. And then finally, the damage burst output is too much for how frequent it is. I mean seriously, this build is pumping out a ridiculous amount of actual DPS. The hilarious thing is that we aren't talking just "burst" here. No, this build has a rather extreme amount of sustained damage output.

Yeah thats condi builds for you. If you cant cleanse, their DPS and burst is absurd. But you can. So its not.

So yeah, going back into what I was saying in the original comment. There simply are not enough classes/builds in play right now that can meet the current patching of P/D on an even level field, to justify how powerful that patching currently is.

Almost all of them can. Thief ironically is one of the only 2 classes that should have problems against D/P even if built against it.

No offense man, but lately the posts you make, I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

Given that I only state simple facts, obviously Im serious. Id have to ask if you are, given that you say such clearly wrong things.

I guess it would be wise to not engage in this discussion.

If you want to concede that youre wrong this quickly, be my guest.

[UNOwen.7132]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Requires melee range, easily visible animation,

I thought anyone half-decent is able to cover up their animations, either via terrain or with canceling. Also, a full-range Steal is more than enough to land Cloak and Dagger consistently. If there's a ranger with a pet or a mesmer with a clone, you can use it.

Not really an option with CnD. You cant really hide the animation, and cancelling requires you to know what the opponent does before they do it, and thats just not feasible. Steal + CnD does work, but that doesnt really help you survive (mostly because you use steal to burst, and you dont need to survive immediately as you start your burst). You much rather would just Shadow Strike into Repeater spam. Pets and Clones do work though. However, Ranger has Sic Em (or Rapid Fire), and Ive already said that Mesmer is one of 2 classes that struggle against P/D anyway.

[Poledra Val.1490]

It fascinates me that some people are trying to justify a build that 100-0 you in less then a few seconds, in a huge team fight you could be using a cleanse or two but a clever condie thief will sit and wait and pick there moments then your downed in under 3-5 seconds. Even the vast majority of the top tier pvp players acknowledge this build is broken. It needs fixing/balancing so we await and see if Anet will do this. I know one thing it wont happen before season end now so we just have to live with it until then.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Poledra Val.1490 said:It fascinates me that some people are trying to justify a build that 100-0 you in less then a few seconds, in a huge team fight you could be using a cleanse or two but a clever condie thief will sit and wait and pick there moments then your downed in under 3-5 seconds. Even the vast majority of the top tier pvp players acknowledge this build is broken. It needs fixing/balancing so we await and see if Anet will do this. I know one thing it wont happen before season end now so we just have to live with it until then.

It only 100-0 you if you have no cleanses, and spam skills. Which all condi builds do. The condi thief can sit and wait, but unless you run out of cleanses (which both implies A, that there is another condi build and B, that that condi build would kill them anyway), thats not gonna do anything. It specifically doesnt need fixing. Conditions as a whole do.

[fumcheg.1936]

@"Poledra Val.1490" said:It fascinates me that some people are trying to justify a build that 100-0 you in less then a few seconds, in a huge team fight you could be using a cleanse or two but a clever condie thief will sit and wait and pick there moments then your downed in under 3-5 seconds. Even the vast majority of the top tier pvp players acknowledge this build is broken. It needs fixing/balancing so we await and see if Anet will do this. I know one thing it wont happen before season end now so we just have to live with it until then.

Oh, really? Maybe they use another forum for this, because I can't see any of them here. I see some folks who don't know how thief skills work and who do not even try to learn something new and become better in this game. Here is news for you, any power based build will "100-0" you in seconds if you stay put and don't use stun breakers, blocks and other stuff.

Here is suggestion for those who struggle in pvp and against thieves particularly - post your video here and people who know how to play pvp (I believe there are some) will help you to improve.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@"Poledra Val.1490" said:It fascinates me that some people are trying to justify a build that 100-0 you in less then a few seconds, in a huge team fight you could be using a cleanse or two but a clever condie thief will sit and wait and pick there moments then your downed in under 3-5 seconds.

Even the vast majority of the top tier pvp players acknowledge this build is broken

. It needs fixing/balancing so we await and see if Anet will do this. I know one thing it wont happen before season end now so we just have to live with it until then.

Oh, really? Maybe they use another forum for this, because I can't see any of them here. I see some folks who don't know how thief skills work and who do not even try to learn something new and become better in this game. Here is news for you, any power based build will "100-0" you in seconds if you stay put and don't use stun breakers, blocks and other stuff.

Here is suggestion for those who struggle in pvp and against thieves particularly - post your video here and people who know how to play pvp (I believe there are some) will help you to improve.

One doesn't have to struggle against a build to call out the BS it has.

He never said these players are using written word, that's all your make-up.

No one respects a condi thief, so you can have that attitude and throw it out of a window.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@"Poledra Val.1490" said:It fascinates me that some people are trying to justify a build that 100-0 you in less then a few seconds, in a huge team fight you could be using a cleanse or two but a clever condie thief will sit and wait and pick there moments then your downed in under 3-5 seconds.

Even the vast majority of the top tier pvp players acknowledge this build is broken

. It needs fixing/balancing so we await and see if Anet will do this. I know one thing it wont happen before season end now so we just have to live with it until then.

Oh, really? Maybe they use another forum for this, because I can't see any of them here. I see some folks who don't know how thief skills work and who do not even try to learn something new and become better in this game. Here is news for you, any power based build will "100-0" you in seconds if you stay put and don't use stun breakers, blocks and other stuff.

Here is suggestion for those who struggle in pvp and against thieves particularly - post your video here and people who know how to play pvp (I believe there are some) will help you to improve.

immagine never posting on the forum, and login specifically to defend broken condi thief lol

[fumcheg.1936]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@"Poledra Val.1490" said:It fascinates me that some people are trying to justify a build that 100-0 you in less then a few seconds, in a huge team fight you could be using a cleanse or two but a clever condie thief will sit and wait and pick there moments then your downed in under 3-5 seconds.

Even the vast majority of the top tier pvp players acknowledge this build is broken

. It needs fixing/balancing so we await and see if Anet will do this. I know one thing it wont happen before season end now so we just have to live with it until then.

Oh, really? Maybe they use another forum for this, because I can't see any of them here. I see some folks who don't know how thief skills work and who do not even try to learn something new and become better in this game. Here is news for you, any power based build will "100-0" you in seconds if you stay put and don't use stun breakers, blocks and other stuff.

Here is suggestion for those who struggle in pvp and against thieves particularly - post your video here and people who know how to play pvp (I believe there are some) will help you to improve.

One doesn't have to struggle against a build to call out the BS it has.

He never said these players are using written word, that's all your make-up.

No one respects a condi thief, so you can have that attitude and throw it out of a window.

So you have no problems with thieves but thieves is BSSo there is no evidenve of "vast majority of the top tier pvp players acknowledge this build is broken" but who caresSo you don't want to become better it PvP because you on behalf of everyone do not respect condi thief...

Well guess I can't help it, ppl like you really exixt.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@"Poledra Val.1490" said:It fascinates me that some people are trying to justify a build that 100-0 you in less then a few seconds, in a huge team fight you could be using a cleanse or two but a clever condie thief will sit and wait and pick there moments then your downed in under 3-5 seconds.

Even the vast majority of the top tier pvp players acknowledge this build is broken

. It needs fixing/balancing so we await and see if Anet will do this. I know one thing it wont happen before season end now so we just have to live with it until then.

Oh, really? Maybe they use another forum for this, because I can't see any of them here. I see some folks who don't know how thief skills work and who do not even try to learn something new and become better in this game. Here is news for you, any power based build will "100-0" you in seconds if you stay put and don't use stun breakers, blocks and other stuff.

Here is suggestion for those who struggle in pvp and against thieves particularly - post your video here and people who know how to play pvp (I believe there are some) will help you to improve.

One doesn't have to struggle against a build to call out the BS it has.

He never said these players are using written word, that's all your make-up.

No one respects a condi thief, so you can have that attitude and throw it out of a window.

So you have no problems with thieves but thieves is BSSo there is no evidenve of "vast majority of the top tier pvp players acknowledge this build is broken" but who caresSo you don't want to become better it PvP because you on behalf of everyone do not respect condi thief...

Well guess I can't help it, ppl like you really exixt.

Hate people like you. Taking words and twisting them out of their original context and meaning.

Although you aren't even doing that right.

[ferbz.6987]

This conversation is not constructive nor adds any value to improving PVP. We already know P/D will get nerfed it's just matter of when. Best thing to do is suggest how to modify it so ANET doesn't absolutely destroy p/d which will most likely be the case based on past history.

What others have suggested:

1) repeater, not spammable. I say allow max two casts. Ammo skill of sorts like mind wrack with shatter storm traited.2) not allow venom share with thieves guild3) Possibly prioritize poison condi clear instead of the other condi covers

Last thing to add, to counter a P/D thief you only need is a holo, a d/p thief, and a necro which you see in every single fight.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ferbz.6987 said:This conversation is not constructive nor adds any value to improving PVP. We already know P/D will get nerfed it's just matter of when. Best thing to do is suggest how to modify it so ANET doesn't absolutely destroy p/d which will most likely be the case based on past history.

What others have suggested:

1) repeater, not spammable. I say allow max two casts. Ammo skill of sorts like mind wrack with shatter storm traited.2) not allow venom share with thieves guild3) Possibly prioritize poison condi clear instead of the other condi covers

Last thing to add, to counter a P/D thief you only need is a holo, a d/p thief, and a necro which you see in every single fight.

number 3 says it all for us lol

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ferbz.6987 said:This conversation is not constructive nor adds any value to improving PVP. We already know P/D will get nerfed it's just matter of when. Best thing to do is suggest how to modify it so ANET doesn't absolutely destroy p/d which will most likely be the case based on past history.

What others have suggested:

1) repeater, not spammable. I say allow max two casts. Ammo skill of sorts like mind wrack with shatter storm traited.2) not allow venom share with thieves guild3) Possibly prioritize poison condi clear instead of the other condi covers

Last thing to add, to counter a P/D thief you only need is a holo, a d/p thief, and a necro which you see in every single fight.

number 3 says it all for us lol

... what? Outside of the initial confusion burst, poison is the main damage condition in the build.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"ferbz.6987" said:This conversation is not constructive nor adds any value to improving PVP. We already know P/D will get nerfed it's just matter of when. Best thing to do is suggest how to modify it so ANET doesn't absolutely destroy p/d which will most likely be the case based on past history.

What others have suggested:

1) repeater, not spammable. I say allow max two casts. Ammo skill of sorts like mind wrack with shatter storm traited.2) not allow venom share with thieves guild3) Possibly prioritize poison condi clear instead of the other condi covers

Last thing to add, to counter a P/D thief you only need is a holo, a d/p thief, and a necro which you see in every single fight.

number 3 says it all for us lol

... what? Outside of the initial confusion burst, poison

is

the main damage condition in the build.

thats what will distinguish good cthief and bad cthief, good one understands that after landing burst they DONT want to apply poison to put it at the top, so they will continue to apply weakness,immob,blind,bleed,torment and avoid poison.most bad cthiefs will use poison off cooldown and try to apply as much of it as they can to " deal more damage" and all they do is make cleansing sigil cleans their 15k poison instead of 1k bleed or 0,5s of remaining immob from ebola shot.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"ferbz.6987" said:This conversation is not constructive nor adds any value to improving PVP. We already know P/D will get nerfed it's just matter of when. Best thing to do is suggest how to modify it so ANET doesn't absolutely destroy p/d which will most likely be the case based on past history.

What others have suggested:

1) repeater, not spammable. I say allow max two casts. Ammo skill of sorts like mind wrack with shatter storm traited.2) not allow venom share with thieves guild3) Possibly prioritize poison condi clear instead of the other condi covers

Last thing to add, to counter a P/D thief you only need is a holo, a d/p thief, and a necro which you see in every single fight.

number 3 says it all for us lol

... what? Outside of the initial confusion burst, poison

is

the main damage condition in the build.

thats what will distinguish good cthief and bad cthief, good one understands that after landing burst they DONT want to apply poison to put it at the top, so they will continue to apply weakness,immob,blind,bleed,torment and avoid poison.

Uh, no. You absolutely do want to keep applying poison. In case of the burst, its confusion thats the biggest damage source (and in that case it doesnt matter, a burst clear removes everything). The build cannot apply weakness more than once every 10 seconds. Immob as we have established isnt used because you can sidestep the skill, you apply bleed with the same skill you apply poison, the only way to apply torment is crippling dagger which is inefficient. It seems you legitimately just dont know the build. At all.

most bad cthiefs will use poison off cooldown and try to apply as much of it as they can to " deal more damage" and all they do is make cleansing sigil cleans their 15k poison instead of 1k bleed or 0,5s of remaining immob from ebola shot.

They have no good way of getting bleed on the target without poison anyway. And again, bola shot isnt used. You can sidestep it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"ferbz.6987" said:This conversation is not constructive nor adds any value to improving PVP. We already know P/D will get nerfed it's just matter of when. Best thing to do is suggest how to modify it so ANET doesn't absolutely destroy p/d which will most likely be the case based on past history.

What others have suggested:

1) repeater, not spammable. I say allow max two casts. Ammo skill of sorts like mind wrack with shatter storm traited.2) not allow venom share with thieves guild3) Possibly prioritize poison condi clear instead of the other condi covers

Last thing to add, to counter a P/D thief you only need is a holo, a d/p thief, and a necro which you see in every single fight.

number 3 says it all for us lol

... what? Outside of the initial confusion burst, poison

is

the main damage condition in the build.

thats what will distinguish good cthief and bad cthief, good one understands that after landing burst they DONT want to apply poison to put it at the top, so they will continue to apply weakness,immob,blind,bleed,torment and avoid poison.

Uh, no. You absolutely do want to keep applying poison. In case of the burst, its confusion thats the biggest damage source (and in that case it doesnt matter, a burst clear removes everything). The build cannot apply weakness more than once every 10 seconds. Immob as we have established isnt used because you can

sidestep

the skill, you apply bleed with the same skill you apply poison, the only way to apply torment is crippling dagger which is inefficient. It seems you legitimately just dont know the build. At all.

most bad cthiefs will use poison off cooldown and try to apply as much of it as they can to " deal more damage" and all they do is make cleansing sigil cleans their 15k poison instead of 1k bleed or 0,5s of remaining immob from ebola shot.

They have no good way of getting bleed on the target without poison anyway. And again, bola shot isnt used. You can sidestep it.

No this is what YOU established.YOU think spammable 4 ini 1,5s immob + vulnerability that covers other skills is bad, sidestep is a joke since steal puts you close range anyways.you can apply bleed with pistol shots, whoos what a suprise.as for burst clearing you need to understand HOW classes cleanse, this is where skill comes in. You wont burst down warrior like that.mending removes 3 + weapon swap 1/2, you cant cover that.shake it off alone is 4 with weapon swap its 5/6, you cant cover the burst unless they dont swap, there is where THEIR skill comes in, to know that you have to use cleansing against this degen build and insta swap NO MATTER what against steal combo.IF warrior doest swap shake it off will remove 4 condis.Bleedvulnerabilityimmob if ebola was usedtorment/poison is next.this is why treshold of 3/4 cleanses is big.I have something similar on mesmer, I use trait that makes my shatter apply 1 fucking vulnerability, ONLY to shatter without clones after torch burst, to cover the 7k+ burn with shitty 1 vulnerability and 1 torment, Depending on enemies I sometimes take burn sigil to push burn into 10k+ and 0clone F2 shatter for 4 cover condis, against other mesmers its GUARANTEE 10k dmg, it INSTANTLY wins me the fight unless ally clears them, all the while they take 10k dmg i can freely apply more covers/damage.same thing with cthief, they dont think and they get punished for it, those bright specimen apply 10k poison onto you and then hit you with 700 dmg venom and place it on top so cleansing sigil removes it all, Pistol stands for Pepega apparently.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"ferbz.6987" said:This conversation is not constructive nor adds any value to improving PVP. We already know P/D will get nerfed it's just matter of when. Best thing to do is suggest how to modify it so ANET doesn't absolutely destroy p/d which will most likely be the case based on past history.

What others have suggested:

1) repeater, not spammable. I say allow max two casts. Ammo skill of sorts like mind wrack with shatter storm traited.2) not allow venom share with thieves guild3) Possibly prioritize poison condi clear instead of the other condi covers

Last thing to add, to counter a P/D thief you only need is a holo, a d/p thief, and a necro which you see in every single fight.

number 3 says it all for us lol

... what? Outside of the initial confusion burst, poison

is

the main damage condition in the build.

thats what will distinguish good cthief and bad cthief, good one understands that after landing burst they DONT want to apply poison to put it at the top, so they will continue to apply weakness,immob,blind,bleed,torment and avoid poison.

Uh, no. You absolutely do want to keep applying poison. In case of the burst, its confusion thats the biggest damage source (and in that case it doesnt matter, a burst clear removes everything). The build cannot apply weakness more than once every 10 seconds. Immob as we have established isnt used because you can

sidestep

the skill, you apply bleed with the same skill you apply poison, the only way to apply torment is crippling dagger which is inefficient. It seems you legitimately just dont know the build. At all.

most bad cthiefs will use poison off cooldown and try to apply as much of it as they can to " deal more damage" and all they do is make cleansing sigil cleans their 15k poison instead of 1k bleed or 0,5s of remaining immob from ebola shot.

They have no good way of getting bleed on the target without poison anyway. And again, bola shot isnt used. You can sidestep it.

No this is what YOU established.

And everyone else who knows the build.

YOU think spammable 4 ini 1,5s immob + vulnerability that covers other skills is bad, sidestep is a joke since steal puts you close range anyways.

I KNOW its bad. But let me just ask you this. If its so good. Why did the condi thieves in the EU MAT finals not use it? Seriously, go look through it, they just dont use it. Also, you do know that you do steal -> shadowstrike, right? You get teleported 600 units back. It will be sidestepped.

you can apply bleed with pistol shots, whoos what a suprise.

I mean if you want to do no damage and let the enemy just wait out the confusion then kill you, go ahead. It wont work out.

as for burst clearing you need to understand HOW classes cleanse, this is where skill comes in. You wont burst down warrior like that.mending removes 3 + weapon swap 1/2, you cant cover that.shake it off alone is 4 with weapon swap its 5/6, you cant cover the burst unless they dont swap, there is where THEIR skill comes in, to know that you have to use cleansing against this degen build and insta swap NO MATTER what against steal combo.IF warrior doest swap shake it off will remove 4 condis.Bleedvulnerabilityimmob if ebola was usedtorment/poison is next.

Nope. There will be no vulnerability. There will be no immobilise. It will be confusion, poison, torment, weakness. Which then gets burst cleared off. For that matter, confusion will always be removed before anything else steal applied.

this is why treshold of 3/4 cleanses is big.

It really isnt, not against thief.

I have something similar on mesmer, I use trait that makes my shatter apply 1 kitten vulnerability, ONLY to shatter without clones after torch burst, to cover the 7k+ burn with kitten 1 vulnerability and 1 torment, Depending on enemies I sometimes take burn sigil to push burn into 10k+ and 0clone F2 shatter for 4 cover condis, against other mesmers its GUARANTEE 10k dmg, it INSTANTLY wins me the fight unless ally clears them, all the while they take 10k dmg i can freely apply more covers/damage.same thing with cthief, they dont think and they get punished for it, those bright specimen apply 10k poison onto you and then hit you with 700 dmg venom and place it on top so cleansing sigil removes it all, Pistol stands for Pepega apparently.

Ok lets assume a thief is bad enough to do what you think they should do. They do the steal burst, then just stand there spamming bola shot. The enemy sidesteps, waits until the confusion clears off while taking less than 3k damage from the other conditions, then turns around and kills the thief. The thief screwed up and died. Youre right that the thief shouldnt immediately spam repeater ad nauseam, but wait for the enemy to use the first burst clear. But that doesnt mean you use other skills. You wait. You dont use anything other than repeater. Poison is and will always be your damage condition.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 you are actually a lost cause, this is why you gave up on thief, when you actually have to start thinking how to use your class you just cant go on.you showed to everyone why conditions are hated, because people dont even understand most basic things like how clearing and covering them works.luckily for the rest anet doesnt like cthif-> bless their souls for that. and hopefully we wont have to endure this bullshit, and I might be able to play power mirage again, untill then im in cmirage jail thx to this degen spec

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"UNOwen.7132" you are actually a lost cause, this is why you gave up on thief, when you actually have to start thinking how to use your class you just cant go on.

Ad hominem after realising you have no arguments and are simply wrong. I didnt "give up on thief" because I didnt know how to use it. Unlike you, I know how thief works. I know how to use it. I just know that its also simply not fun. I stopped playing it not because I didnt do well, but because I was not enjoying it. Hence why Im playing Core Engineer which isnt that good, but is very fun.

you showed to everyone why conditions are hated, because people dont even understand most basic things like how clearing and covering them works.

No, people do understand that. What you dont understand is that your ideas, due to your complete lack of even the most basic understanding of how thief works, are bad. You are so focused on trying to put cover conditions that you dont realise that A, the way you do it doesnt work because the skills simply wont hit and B, youre so focused on applying counter-conditions you dont even apply the conditions needed to do damage. Youre simply an irrational thief hater who is so blinded by his bias he doesnt notice that he talks complete nonsense. Thats why the 2 thieves in the MAT finals played like I said, and didnt even consider playing like you tried to argue is totally the right way.

luckily for the rest anet doesnt like cthif-> bless their souls for that. and hopefully we wont have to endure this kitten, and I might be able to play power mirage again, untill then im in cmirage jail thx to this degen spec

And then you try playing power mirage against condi rev, get obliterated the exact same way, but since you dont have an irrational hatred for revenant and need to somehow justify to yourself the different treatment, you will make up excuses for why its totally fine that they crush you.

Edit: they will probably nerf it. Because thief has gotten things nerfed that werent even viable before. But that by itself is whatever. The fact that the problems that exist with it, which in truth are the problems with conditions themselves wont be fixed. Condi Mirage and Condi Rev will keep doing the same thing, better even since they do more damage, and people will just jump to them to complain. When what we truly need is a condition rework.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"UNOwen.7132" you are actually a lost cause, this is why you gave up on thief, when you actually have to start thinking how to use your class you just cant go on.you showed to everyone why conditions are hated, because people dont even understand most basic things like how clearing and covering them works.luckily for the rest anet doesnt like cthif-> bless their souls for that. and hopefully we wont have to endure this kitten, and I might be able to play power mirage again, untill then im in cmirage jail thx to this degen spec

Hell, remember that you were defending conditions tooth and nail, arguing that they were totally fine. And the second thief has a condi build people play, suddenly its a major issue that immediately needs to be fixed and it forcing you to use burst clears totally keeps specs out of the meta which the other condi builds totally dont do for .... no reason you ever stated. Its hilarious how predictable you are. "X is good unless thief uses it, then its bad and must be changed. But only on thief!".

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132 you are actually a lost cause, this is why you gave up on thief, when you actually have to start thinking how to use your class you just cant go on.you showed to everyone why conditions are hated, because people dont even understand most basic things like how clearing and covering them works.luckily for the rest anet doesnt like cthif-> bless their souls for that. and hopefully we wont have to endure this kitten, and I might be able to play power mirage again, untill then im in cmirage jail thx to this degen spec

Hell, remember that you were defending conditions tooth and nail, arguing that they were totally fine. And the second thief has a condi build people play, suddenly its a major issue that immediately needs to be fixed and it forcing you to use burst clears totally keeps specs out of the meta which the other condi builds totally dont do for .... no reason you ever stated. Its hilarious how predictable you are. "X is good unless thief uses it, then its bad and must be changed. But only on thief!".

I was defending conditions becouse people were giving suggestion like " just nerf all conditions by 50% ", this is why I want cthief nerfed and not all conditions get nerfed,if cthief and crev are the only condi builds overperforming you nerf those 2 builds instead of nerfing conditions as a whole.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132 you are actually a lost cause, this is why you gave up on thief, when you actually have to start thinking how to use your class you just cant go on.you showed to everyone why conditions are hated, because people dont even understand most basic things like how clearing and covering them works.luckily for the rest anet doesnt like cthif-> bless their souls for that. and hopefully we wont have to endure this kitten, and I might be able to play power mirage again, untill then im in cmirage jail thx to this degen spec

Hell, remember that you were defending conditions tooth and nail, arguing that they were totally fine. And the second thief has a condi build people play, suddenly its a major issue that immediately needs to be fixed and it forcing you to use burst clears totally keeps specs out of the meta which the other condi builds totally dont do for .... no reason you ever stated. Its hilarious how predictable you are. "X is good unless thief uses it, then its bad and must be changed. But only on thief!".

I was defending conditions becouse people were giving suggestion like " just nerf all conditions by 50% ", this is why I want cthief nerfed and not all conditions get nerfed,

No, you were defending them alltogether, saying they shouldnt be nerfed at all and that its totally fine that every build has to run burst clear. Now when thief says that you have to run burst clear, its suddenly a big issue that invalidates builds that the others ... apparently dont? Again, you never explained how that was supposed to make sense.

if cthief and crev are the only condi builds overperforming you nerf those 2 builds instead of nerfing conditions as a whole.

The problem is that nerfing conditions doesnt solve the issue. The issue isnt that condition builds overperform. Its that conditions are binary and force you to pick condi clear, which impacts build diversity. The solution isnt to just nerf thief and rev and then let builds like core condi necro and condi mirage invalidate the same builds you claim rev and thief invalidated. The solution is to fix the problem. Rework conditions.

[ferbz.6987]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ferbz.6987 said:This conversation is not constructive nor adds any value to improving PVP. We already know P/D will get nerfed it's just matter of when. Best thing to do is suggest how to modify it so ANET doesn't absolutely destroy p/d which will most likely be the case based on past history.

What others have suggested:

1) repeater, not spammable. I say allow max two casts. Ammo skill of sorts like mind wrack with shatter storm traited.2) not allow venom share with thieves guild3) Possibly prioritize poison condi clear instead of the other condi covers

Last thing to add, to counter a P/D thief you only need is a holo, a d/p thief, and a necro which you see in every single fight.

number 3 says it all for us lol

Boy, I envy you.

[saerni.2584]

Seriously, if you think having to burn a teleport to gain stealth by spending more than a third of your initiative on CnD assuming it even lands is a lot of stealth then...wow.

Can’t we just have an honest discussion about what specifically needs adjustment?

@Trevor Boyer.6524

You should be able to appreciate, as with past balance threads, the need to discuss specific changes and not just hyperbolic complaints.

P/D is a ranged projectile weapon. Of course LoS works. It is harder because, yes, any thief will use stealth to confuse you. Just like a ranger with stealth. So what? LoS still works if you play smart. The gap closers are limited to steal and infiltrators signet. So you can LoS this.

Are we all in agreement that venoms share with the Thieves Guild and, maybe, Repeater being so spammable as a timer rather than single flip, is the problem here? Or do people just want to complain that the condition system isn’t what they would have designed? I’d have done it differently too but I’m, not, the game, designer. So I live with it.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@saerni.2584 said:Seriously, if you think having to burn a teleport to gain stealth by spending more than a third of your initiative on CnD assuming it even lands is a lot of stealth then...wow.

Can’t we just have an honest discussion about what specifically needs adjustment?

@Trevor Boyer.6524

You should be able to appreciate, as with past balance threads, the need to discuss specific changes and not just hyperbolic complaints.

P/D is a ranged projectile weapon. Of course LoS works. It is harder because, yes, any thief will use stealth to confuse you. Just like a ranger with stealth. So what? LoS still works if you play smart. The gap closers are limited to steal and infiltrators signet. So you can LoS this.

Are we all in agreement that venoms share with the Thieves Guild and, maybe, Repeater being so spammable as a timer rather than single flip, is the problem here? Or do people just want to complain that the condition system isn’t what they would have designed? I’d have done it differently too but I’m, not, the game, designer. So I live with it.

You act like what I said was somehow not true, and then in the same breath state yourself exactly how what I said works:

• You are LOSing
• Thief Steals at you through the LOS
• Thief uses P/D #3 and immediately disengages you while landing a huge burst

The problem occurred when a bunch of stuff for Thief was buffed in the past 3 or 4 seasons while conditions were not nerfed along with -33% power coefficient. So take your pick, either nerf conditions game wide by -33% coefficient or revert some of the sustain creep Thief experienced. That's my opinion. But I'd say -33% to conditions need to happen. Metas are always bad and low skill cap when condis are too strong. This has been prove time and time again.