Pistol thief

[saerni.2584]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Seriously, if you think having to burn a teleport to gain stealth by spending more than a third of your initiative on CnD assuming it even lands is a lot of stealth then...wow.

Can’t we just have an honest discussion about what specifically needs adjustment?

@Trevor Boyer.6524

You should be able to appreciate, as with past balance threads, the need to discuss specific changes and not just hyperbolic complaints.

P/D is a ranged projectile weapon. Of course LoS works. It is harder because, yes, any thief will use stealth to confuse you. Just like a ranger with stealth. So what? LoS still works if you play smart. The gap closers are limited to steal and infiltrators signet. So you can LoS this.

Are we all in agreement that venoms share with the Thieves Guild and, maybe, Repeater being so spammable as a timer rather than single flip, is the problem here? Or do people just want to complain that the condition system isn’t what they would have designed? I’d have done it differently too but I’m, not, the game, designer. So I live with it.

You act like what I said was somehow not true, and then in the same breath state yourself exactly how what I said works:

• You are LOSing
• Thief Steals at you through the LOS
• Thief uses P/D #3 and immediately disengages you while landing a huge burst

The problem occurred when a bunch of stuff for Thief was buffed in the past 3 or 4 seasons while conditions were not nerfed along with -33% power coefficient. So take your pick, either nerf conditions game wide by -33% coefficient or revert some of the sustain creep Thief experienced. That's my opinion. But I'd say -33% to conditions need to happen. Metas are always bad and low skill cap when condis are too strong. This has been prove time and time again.

So you just want “-33% condi.” That’s not specific.

And complaining that a thief you are LoSing used the class profession mechanic to teleport to you? Sure, that’s productive. We should just delete steal from the game. That will make thief balanced...

[Tails.9372]

@UNOwen.7132 said:Adding more damage to autoattacks would be nice for the P/P build.P/P is flawed on such a basic level that the whole weapon set should get a complete rework.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Tails.9372 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Adding more damage to autoattacks would be nice for the P/P build.P/P is flawed on such a basic level that the whole weapon set should get a complete rework.

People like Unload (for some reason), so Bola Shot and autoattacks are about the only things that can be changed.

[Tails.9372]

@UNOwen.7132 said:People like Unload (for some reason)People don't just "like" unload, they are forced to use it because of how the skills are "eating" eachother. Unload essentially is nothing but a glorified AA anyway and therefore in the same boat as Double Strike. Issue is that unlike with D/P you have to compromize between damage and utility. This can't simply be fixed by just buffing other skills as this would lead to even more redundancies and would also affect other weapon sets.

@UNOwen.7132 said:Bola Shot and autoattacks are about the only things that can be changed.They can change pretty much anything they want as there is no technical limitation on how many weapons skills can be replaced by holding 2 1H weapons.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I don't understand how people could have such a problem with mirage vomiting torment and confusion at the same time, and then turn around and defend thief vomiting torment and confusion at the same time.

We just had a rework to deadly arts that was aimed at making condition application grindy and wear-down angled. This isn't the way to balance for thief. It's lacking in some departments and will need damage returned in some locations eventually, but this needs a look in the meanwhile.

If you had a problem with pre-nerf Mirage/pre-nerf instashatter, you should have a problem with this. Any build that allows people to load lethal level of damage on you without a tell or indication that that damage is coming needs to be adjusted period.

Eventually we will get to buffing what we need to buff with any luck.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:nerf conditions game wide by -33% coefficient

I wouldn't go that far. Torment is fine on Condi Rev, and burning is fine on Guard for the most part. I think if we tweak stacks/dura on thief and put some base coeff back on things that require less-instant interaction it'll fix the problem. sustain for the moment is fine-ish, wouldn't touch that.

@saerni.2584 said:And complaining that a thief you are LoSing used the class profession mechanic to teleport to you? Sure, that’s productive.

That's not what he's saying. He's talking about the ease of application for lethal damage despite whatever the opponent may be doing. Steal is fine as a mechanic, but we're still talking about a flavor of insta-damage here that even LoS can't buffer.

I don't get it. it's not really skillful. You steal then immediately press 3 and not only are you a reasonably safe distance away, your opponent is basically melting.

[fumcheg.1936]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I don't get it. it's not really skillful. You steal then immediately press 3 and not only are you a reasonably safe distance away, your opponent is basically melting.

Then you clean this condi burst and just kill this thief. Because it's already out of its only gap closer and there is no way it can kill you with auto attack.

By the way as a thief I'm all for 33% reduction for all condi damage in pvp (I'd rather prefer 50% though). Would be more than happy to get rid of all tihs cancer condi guards, revs, mesmers and so on.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I don't get it. it's not really skillful. You steal then immediately press 3 and not only are you a reasonably safe distance away, your opponent is basically melting.

Then you clean this condi burst and just kill this thief. Because it's already out of its

only

gap closer and there is no way it can kill you with auto attack.

By the way as a thief I'm all for 33% reduction for all condi damage in pvp (I'd rather prefer 50% though). Would be more than happy to get rid of all tihs cancer condi guards, revs, mesmers and so on.

It's been proven time and time and time again over the years.

Anytime CONDI is dealing more damage than power, we get condi bunker metas, where weird annoying builds with low skill cap, lots of DPS and outrageous sustain begin to appear. It's just getting old at this point. Arenanet should have learned their lesson on this one. Condi should always be taking the back seat to power damage for so many reasons concerning the quality of the gameplay.

[saerni.2584]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I don't get it. it's not really skillful. You steal then immediately press 3 and not only are you a reasonably safe distance away, your opponent is basically melting.

Then you clean this condi burst and just kill this thief. Because it's already out of its

only

gap closer and there is no way it can kill you with auto attack.

By the way as a thief I'm all for 33% reduction for all condi damage in pvp (I'd rather prefer 50% though). Would be more than happy to get rid of all tihs cancer condi guards, revs, mesmers and so on.

It's been proven time and time and time again over the years.

Anytime CONDI is dealing more damage than power, we get condi bunker metas, where weird annoying builds with low skill cap, lots of DPS and outrageous sustain begin to appear. It's just getting old at this point. Arenanet should have learned their lesson on this one. Condi should always be taking the back seat to power damage for so many reasons concerning the quality of the gameplay.

The sustain issues are usually on things like necro which have high base HP pools and profession mechanics that give even more sustain.

@Azure The Heartless.3261

My point was if someone tries to LoS you as a thief running pistol or DE rifle you are going to use your skills to try and get around the obstacle. LoS as a strategy relies on constant movement.

If you can block or evade when you see the thief steal onto you you can stop the Shadowstrike. If you don’t stop it you can kite around a LoS object and not get hit by the follow up Repeater because they just used their gap closer. You can also count on counter pressure from range because to hit you with Repeater they need LoS just as much as you do.

If Steal and one Shadowstrike is melting you then your build has bigger issues. Let’s assume the thief also used spider venom, meaning the Shadowstrike (one melee and one ranged shot) will use two charges of the venom. Then an auto attack and the first Repeater will probably use up all the remaining four charges of venom. If venom is 1.4k poison per charge then x4 is about 6k poison damage and then 2k bleed and bonus poison from Deadly Ambition.

So if you just dodge the Repeater following a Shadowstrike you avoid give or take 8k damage plus probably another 2k power damage. 10k is worth a dodge or a projectile denial skill instead if you prefer. That’s the risk you run with Spider Venom. Your burst is good but any mistake or good play by your opponent and your damage drops off a lot. And that’s before we take into consideration the possibilities of cleanse, which vary a lot by profession.

As I’ve said before, Spider Venom is the reason this build hurts. Spider Venom has some counter play. Where it becomes harder to handle is with venom sharing automatically letting an ally burst and waste their cleanses, then the thief can just steal, Shadowstrike, Repeater and watch the enemy die.

I just want us to have an honest discussion about specific balance issues with specific skills and not just say “nerf all condi.” Condi rev was toned down and now feels fair to fight. We shouldn’t talk about blanket nerfs to the coefficients. If burn FB overperforms nerf FB not everyone. If condi trapper Druid is over performing look at the runes or look at the condi damage on specific abilities.

And for those saying power should always be better than condi 100%. That seems contrary to the entire design philosophy of Anet. They want condi on par with power. They obviously don’t want it to be better but a 30% nerf like @Trevor Boyer.6524 suggested would just remove all condi builds from PvP. Build diversity was already suffering and you want to make it even worse? You probably would say build diversity would increase without having to build to counter condi. Sure, different builds would become viable, or more likely, builds that are good now will change out condi cleanse etc for other things and the diversity of builds won’t increase.

I think Anet will need to buff a number of power abilities slightly. Some stuns should do a little more damage. Some abilities hit a little too lightly. Rather than saying condi does too much damage maybe Anet just over nerfed power and is waiting to see how things settle before applying some targeted buffs to make things play better.

[ZDragon.3046]

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I don't get it. it's not really skillful. You steal then immediately press 3 and not only are you a reasonably safe distance away, your opponent is basically melting.

Then you clean this condi burst and just kill this thief. Because it's already out of its

only

gap closer and there is no way it can kill you with auto attack.

By the way as a thief I'm all for 33% reduction for all condi damage in pvp (I'd rather prefer 50% though). Would be more than happy to get rid of all tihs cancer condi guards, revs, mesmers and so on.

Depending on the profession that might not be possible in a decent time frame.I have a reaper build with 27k hp and when a condi thief burst me even on my best cleanse which would be consume conditions depending on if i was basilisk venom'ed or not I can be at half of that (which is pretty much half the other cast of professions base hp) before i can actually completely channel the skill and thats a full bar clear.Basically no other profession has that ability on their utility bar (aside from spellbreakers heal) so you want them to burst clears something that melts way faster than most power builds without a skill like consume conditions as an option to them. (i suppose ranger gets close if they run double survival clears with child of earth and TU for the heal which is a 4 condi removal on heal activation)

If im not running consume conditions ill be at roughly a 4th of my health as i have to use 2 utilities to attempt cleansing and then heal immediately (without death magic clears) before i can even think about attacking the thief thats still spamming repeater at a mildly safe distance.

My question is why power builds on thief aside from

• hide or die deadeye (which is not very effective in matches)
• one shot backstab core thief (which is mainly tied to wvw and not that great in matches)

Dont have power damage burst anywhere near that level. Any other power build on thief is just about a joke compared to condi burst thief atm.

@Trevor Boyer.6524Is actually correct here power damage should be above condi damage period and right now its not for the majority of viable and unviable builds. Condi comes out on top.I think cutting condi damage by 30% would be fair considering also the fact that to make power damage work you need between 2 and 3 statsPower, Precision, and ferocityWhere as condition damage only really needs 1 stat maybe 2 at mostCondition damage, and maybe some base power (and thats optional)

Naturally condition builds are likely always have between 30% and 60% of their stats invested in some other attribute thats not offensive because they dont need as many stats to deal damage they simply need to know how to play and hit their targets with their skills the skills themselves dont need to hit hard they just need to connect.

[UNOwen.7132]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:I don't get it. it's not really skillful. You steal then immediately press 3 and not only are you a reasonably safe distance away, your opponent is basically melting.

Then you clean this condi burst and just kill this thief. Because it's already out of its

only

gap closer and there is no way it can kill you with auto attack.

By the way as a thief I'm all for 33% reduction for all condi damage in pvp (I'd rather prefer 50% though). Would be more than happy to get rid of all tihs cancer condi guards, revs, mesmers and so on.

Depending on the profession that might not be possible in a decent time frame.I have a reaper build with 27k hp and when a condi thief burst me even on my best cleanse which would be consume conditions depending on if i was basilisk venom'ed or not I can be at half of that (which is pretty much half the other cast of professions base hp) before i can actually completely channel the skill and thats a full bar clear.

You will not take 13k damage before you can finish channeling consume conditions from condi thief. Not even close. Most of their "burst" damage comes from people spamming under confusion. If you just use consume conditions and nothing else, even if you took 3 seconds to do that, you will not have lost more than, what, 6k tops? Maybe more or less if you moved, I cant be bothered to do torment math.

Basically no other profession has that ability on their utility bar (aside from spellbreakers heal) so you want them to burst clears something that melts way faster than most power builds without a skill like consume conditions as an option to them. (i suppose ranger gets close if they run double survival clears with child of earth and TU for the heal which is a 4 condi removal on heal activation)

A few do, actually. Engineer has 2, Elixir C and Supply drop. Firebrand has a Tome skill. Rev has basically their heal skill which kinda does that. And of course, every class can get Resistance thanks to the Rune of ... well resistance, which completely nullifies condi damage. And no, it doesnt melt nearly as fast as power builds.

If im not running consume conditions ill be at roughly a 4th of my health as i have to use 2 utilities to attempt cleansing and then heal immediately (without death magic clears) before i can even think about attacking the thief thats still spamming repeater at a mildly safe distance.

Even then you shouldnt be, because again, most damage comes from confusion which if youre not spamming doesnt do a whole lot. Also you dont need multiple utilities, you should at least have unholy Martyr for the first burst.

My question is why power builds on thief aside from

• hide or die deadeye (which is not very effective in matches)
• one shot backstab core thief (which is mainly tied to wvw and not that great in matches)

Dont have power damage burst anywhere near that level. Any other power build on thief is just about a joke compared to condi burst thief atm.

Thats not because condi thief is particularly bursty, its because power thief burst in general is just a joke. Even core backstab thief sucks at bursting. Take away condi thief, and people still will use core backstab thief even though its burst sucks.

@Trevor Boyer.6524Is actually correct here power damage should be above condi damage period and right now its not for the majority of viable and unviable builds. Condi comes out on top.I think cutting condi damage by 30% would be fair considering also the fact that to make power damage work you need between 2 and 3 statsPower, Precision, and ferocityWhere as condition damage only really needs 1 stat maybe 2 at mostCondition damage, and maybe some base power (and thats optional)

Technically they would need 3 for optimal damage most of the time, condi damage, expertise and precision. But expertise really doesnt matter much because of cleanses.

Naturally condition builds are likely always have between 30% and 60% of their stats invested in some other attribute thats not offensive because they dont need as many stats to deal damage they simply need to know how to play and hit their targets with their skills the skills themselves dont need to hit hard they just need to connect.

They cant invest 60% in non-offensive stats in PvP, those amulets arent available. But yes, 30% most of the time.

[Poledra Val.1490]

So glad the season is almost over and Anet can nerf this silly build, so obnoxious to see people press 2 buttons and instant results.

[fumcheg.1936]

@"Poledra Val.1490" said:So glad the season is almost over and Anet can nerf this silly build, so obnoxious to see people press 2 buttons and instant results.

They may nerf thief again, but condi meta is still there. The only thing is going to change is those who are whining about condi thief now will cry "please switch" before every match.

[Poledra Val.1490]

@fumcheg.1936 said:

@"Poledra Val.1490" said:So glad the season is almost over and Anet can nerf this silly build, so obnoxious to see people press 2 buttons and instant results.

They may nerf thief again, but condi meta is still there. The only thing is going to change is those who are whining about condi thief now will cry "please switch" before every match.

Condie meta will remain very likely but this specific build is extremely obnoxious and a deal breaker in any match.

[fumcheg.1936]

If you like "please switch" more I don't mind actually. Nerf it.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

I can out-duel a condi thief on DD no problem in most cases. But it takes far more effort than it takes for them to simply "haha condi unloads brr brr!" and "haha stealth bzz bzz".

In other words, an inexperienced noob can reap rewards similar to an experienced player with this build. This should never happen, it's not a maintainable way to develop your game if you want to keep your player base intact.

This goes for a lot of builds currently, from core necro (which is, thankfully, a lot more manageable now) to condi rev. They allow worse players to bypass certain mechanical stepping stones completely - such as consistency. A power build player, post-February patch in particular, has to consistently land (read: all the time) every key skill in their kit in order to kill someone in a 1v1, sometimes even 1v2 scenario (looking at weaver and necro). Does this standard hold for condi builds in a lot of cases? Nope.

[Poledra Val.1490]

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:I can out-duel a condi thief on DD no problem in most cases. But it takes far more effort than it takes for them to simply "haha condi unloads brr brr!" and "haha stealth bzz bzz".

In other words, an inexperienced noob can reap rewards similar to an experienced player with this build. This should never happen, it's not a maintainable way to develop your game if you want to keep your player base intact.

This goes for a lot of builds currently, from core necro (which is, thankfully, a lot more manageable now) to condi rev. They allow worse players to bypass certain mechanical stepping stones completely - such as consistency. A power build player, post-February patch in particular, has to consistently land (read: all the time) every key skill in their kit in order to kill someone in a 1v1, sometimes even 1v2 scenario (looking at weaver and necro). Does this standard hold for condi builds in a lot of cases? Nope.

I agree with this, its a pretty straight forward broken build that is extremelly easy to play and has maximum impact in any match at the moment.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Poledra Val.1490 said:

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:I can out-duel a condi thief on DD no problem in most cases. But it takes far more effort than it takes for them to simply "haha condi unloads brr brr!" and "haha stealth bzz bzz".

In other words, an inexperienced noob can reap rewards similar to an experienced player with this build. This should never happen, it's not a maintainable way to develop your game if you want to keep your player base intact.

This goes for a lot of builds currently, from core necro (which is, thankfully, a lot more manageable now) to condi rev. They allow worse players to bypass certain mechanical stepping stones completely - such as consistency. A power build player, post-February patch in particular, has to consistently land (read: all the time) every key skill in their kit in order to kill someone in a 1v1, sometimes even 1v2 scenario (looking at weaver and necro). Does this standard hold for condi builds in a lot of cases?

Nope.

I agree with this, its a pretty straight forward broken build that is extremelly easy to play and has maximum impact in any match at the moment.

There are bigger problems than condi thief lol. Stack Rev, Stack Necro, Stack Soulbeast and just laugh your way to victory. Once the community adjusts to how this build is played it won't be as effective. As far as it stomping noobs. Well that is a good and bad thing.

[melody.2601]

Laughable crybaby thread,oh a build is actually decent but can still be countered? QQ NERFbut it does so many conditions in such a short period! Laughs in Necro, Condi Rev, Condi Ranger etc

Seriously get a grip and git gud, Condi Thief is not the problem, its your inability to dodge at the right time. if a Thief +1's you, you obviously going to die and you should die, cause you are outnumbered, you shouldnt be able to hold a fucking position for 20+ seconds until help arrives, thats just plain dogshit.

Buff other Classes instead of crying for Nerfs.

[Tayga.3192]

@melody.2601 said:if a Thief +1's you, you obviously going to die and you should die, cause you are outnumbered, you shouldnt be able to hold a kitten position for 20+ seconds until help arrives, thats just plain kitten.

People should at least be able to kite/run away (depending on the build) when a thief +1s against them.

That's currently almost impossible, a thief can easily follow every build rn.

[melody.2601]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@melody.2601 said:if a Thief +1's you, you obviously going to die and you should die, cause you are outnumbered, you shouldnt be able to hold a kitten position for 20+ seconds until help arrives, thats just plain kitten.

People should at least be able to kite/run away (depending on the build) when a thief +1s against them.

That's currently almost impossible, a thief can easily follow every build rn.

So you crying about Thiefs mobility and ability to stick to targets? Which is the entire design of the Class, lmao.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@melody.2601 said:Laughable crybaby thread,oh a build is actually decent but can still be countered? QQ NERFbut it does so many conditions in such a short period! Laughs in Necro, Condi Rev, Condi Ranger etc

Seriously get a grip and git gud, Condi Thief is not the problem, its your inability to dodge at the right time. if a Thief +1's you, you obviously going to die and you should die, cause you are outnumbered, you shouldnt be able to hold a kitten position for 20+ seconds until help arrives, thats just plain kitten.

Buff other Classes instead of crying for Nerfs.

me tif, me +1, me shud instantly kil you cuz 2v1, you bad, you no guess my insta atak from stleth, you shud dielp2

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"melody.2601" said:if a Thief +1's you, you obviously going to die and you should die, cause you are outnumbered, you shouldnt be able to hold a kitten position for 20+ seconds until help arrives, thats just plain kitten.

People should at least be able to kite/run away (depending on the build) when a thief +1s against them.

That's currently almost impossible, a thief can easily follow every build rn.

So u want other classes to balanced how they are but have the disengage potential of thief. Guess u want massive nerfs to those classes for "compensation" and the following nerf its mobility threads that will follow also lol

[melody.2601]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@melody.2601 said:Laughable crybaby thread,oh a build is actually decent but can still be countered? QQ NERFbut it does so many conditions in such a short period! Laughs in Necro, Condi Rev, Condi Ranger etc

Seriously get a grip and git gud, Condi Thief is not the problem, its your inability to dodge at the right time. if a Thief +1's you, you obviously going to die and you should die, cause you are outnumbered, you shouldnt be able to hold a kitten position for 20+ seconds until help arrives, thats just plain kitten.

Buff other Classes instead of crying for Nerfs.

me tif, me +1, me shud instantly kil you cuz 2v1, you bad, you no guess my insta atak from stleth, you shud dielp2

Yes, Learn 2 Play, if a Thief +1's you what does that mean? It means you have 2 Enemies on you, that means your team should be able to win somewhere else, cause its technically a 4v3 situation on the Map, if you die to a +1 its fine as long as your team doesnt fuck up.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@melody.2601 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@melody.2601 said:Laughable crybaby thread,oh a build is actually decent but can still be countered? QQ NERFbut it does so many conditions in such a short period! Laughs in Necro, Condi Rev, Condi Ranger etc

Seriously get a grip and git gud, Condi Thief is not the problem, its your inability to dodge at the right time. if a Thief +1's you, you obviously going to die and you should die, cause you are outnumbered, you shouldnt be able to hold a kitten position for 20+ seconds until help arrives, thats just plain kitten.

Buff other Classes instead of crying for Nerfs.

me tif, me +1, me shud instantly kil you cuz 2v1, you bad, you no guess my insta atak from stleth, you shud dielp2

Yes, Learn 2 Play, if a Thief +1's you what does that mean? It means you have 2 Enemies on you, that means your team should be able to win somewhere else, cause its technically a 4v3 situation on the Map, if you die to a +1 its fine as long as your team doesnt kitten up.

Wrong! Were talking about this community and its mentality here. If a thief +1's for a teamate making a 2v1 situation the thief should be so weak and close to useless that even though the opponent is now in a 2v1 they should still be able to successfully win the 2v1 as if thief made little difference or just say nope and disengage at will all while being balanced for being able to sustain itself for extended times under pressure. Are u new to the community?

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@melody.2601 said:if a Thief +1's you, you obviously going to die and you should die, cause you are outnumbered, you shouldnt be able to hold a kitten position for 20+ seconds until help arrives, thats just plain kitten.

People should at least be able to kite/run away (depending on the build) when a thief +1s against them.

That's currently almost impossible, a thief can easily follow every build rn.

Run away should be your only chance when you get +1/ outnumbered, especially by a thief.

If this is not the case, thief is too weak or your class has too much sustain.

Really is that simple.