New Raiders, Accessibility and Advice

[Kenny.5826]

Heya,Quite a few have complained that starting a raid can be difficult as the first place to look is in LFG and sees everyone asks for a certain number of Legendary Insight(LI). Then comes the catch 22. Need LI to join the group to kill bosses and get LI. This is a problem for new players as to them it feels that you need LI to get LI.

Now this is where some people claim that the community is becoming more elitist or inaccessible. However a few things to note, LFG is not intended for new raiders who have very little to no experience (exceptions to training runs) even tho it may look like it. This is because the majority of the players that are on LFG are looking for kills and not train/carry new players. Undoubtedly those with less experience overall will be less mechanically inefficient and lower dps or quickness/alacrity up time than those with more experience. There are always exceptions but again people in LFG are looking for quick kills. LI by no means is a measure for skill but it is an adequate measure for experience.

So to new players,The main take away is if you are new to raiding and using LFG to start, it will feel inaccessible because it is by large inaccessible. LFG is usually for those with more experience

So how to get started? I'd recommend you find a guild that does training runs. You can find them from most efficient to least inefficient method: reddit guild recruitment sub reddit; Creating a group on raid LFG and advertise yourself for a training guild and finally using map chat in the lions arch aerodrome. Or if you are in EU, I have a friend who runs training and you can pop me a mail.(Do note that there are some requirements not related to boss mainly gear and rotation: Further information down below.

New players: A list of what you should do to make your raiding life easier.Go to search qtfy on Google. There is a wealth of information on each class and the builds and rotation that you should know to be a much more efficient raider.Learn and practice your rotation in the practice room. Rotations are certain order of actions or priority in skills in which to bring out more effectiveness of your class. (More information down below)Full acended may be expensive but trust me, it makes a huge difference.

So why should you do all that?It's not elitism for the most part. It is to make the raiding experience smoother. Example a guardian without the proper build and rotation might only do 1/3 of the damage that a well trained guardian might. And if there are 4 well trained damage dealers vs non well trained you can see why it is important.

Why is higher damage important?The quicker you kill a boss the less mechanics you have to deal with Which means a smoother clean kill. For an example look at YouTube for gorseval with updraft and gorsaval without updraft.

So in conclusion, asking for LI isn't all to do with elitism, some people might but others are not. Some just wants a quick kill and with higher LI has a higher chance of players who know their class and boss mechanics better so more chance of a kill or a smoother kill.

A deadly raid squad is a happy raid squad!Good luck.Kenny

N.B As always on the internet take everything with a grain of salt. I like many others clear weekly and have wildly different perspectives to new raiders which might have cause bias.

[zealex.9410]

The best tools to start raiding are not in the game. The are in forums like these, reddit or discord servers. Namely the crossroad and various guilds that run training groups.

Sad or not thats the reality. Anet wanted to have raids be generally hard in their entirety and with such dificulty getting into them gets harder.

[meeflak.9714]

There are multiple discord servers and guilds that train new players, but don't be afraid to check lfg from time to time and jump into training raids as you find them , they come up often enough (I run some myself) and most of the people running them are well informed and will help you learn the fight. Lfg isn't the best tool for beginners but it's a tool non the less.

It's always a good idea to watch some guides beforehand so you can get a feel for what you're getting into.

What I really wanted to address here is the belief that you need full ascended to raid, this is just not true. What's more important when you first start raiding is that you know your class, and you know your rotation. These play a much bigger role in your dps then your gear does, and if you're well practiced in your class you'll be able to hold your own just fine in a full set of exotics. When I run training groups I only require exotics and a good understanding of your class.

Qtfy is an amazing tool to learn both your classes rotation, and gearing path, but don't be afraid to go for exotics while learning. Just keep the build proper =)

[Maunzi.3764]

What I really wanted to address here is the belief that you need full ascended to raid, this is just not true.

Caveat: If you want to join pugs, yes, you need at least full ascended weapons, or they WILL kick you for poor performance. (well, at least if the group wipes. If they don't, you might be fine)

[FaboBabo.3581]

"New players: A list of what you should do to make your raiding life easier.Go to search qtfy on Google. There is a wealth of information on each class and the builds and rotation that you should know to be a much more efficient raider.Learn and practice your rotation in the practice room. Rotations are certain order of actions or priority in skills in which to bring out more effectiveness of your class. (More information down below)Full acended may be expensive but trust me, it makes a huge difference."

The problem lies here.

I dont want to get the highest dmg number, if i'd do the raid.I want a challenge for MY charackter. I want to see if i can kill the Boss with MY stats.They aren't optimal for Raids, and they will never be. I am willing to change traits for example ; on Mirage I'd swap chaos with Dueling and get OH Pistol.

It should be possible for me to raid with others that have there own build, but it feels lacklustering in the Game itself.LFG is usualy the tool to find other casual Players, except for Raids.

One Problem on Raids is the Time. I never radied so i just take this from tellings.After a specific time the Raids boss gets stronger/(unkillable ?), so u NEED the full dmg set to actually kill it, before it comes to the Point. This feels not right in my opinion.It's probably to counter solo raiding or something like that, but in fact in counters casual builds more in my opinion.

Feel free to correct me, as i, repeating, never raided.

[Coconut.7082]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:"New players: A list of what you should do to make your raiding life easier.Go to search qtfy on Google. There is a wealth of information on each class and the builds and rotation that you should know to be a much more efficient raider.Learn and practice your rotation in the practice room. Rotations are certain order of actions or priority in skills in which to bring out more effectiveness of your class. (More information down below)Full acended may be expensive but trust me, it makes a huge difference."

The problem lies here.

IDK where you guys bring this Ascended thing from, 99% of pugs don't ask you to ping your gear anymore.. As long as you don't have abysmal damage no-one will notice.

@FaboBabo.3581 said:I dont want to get the highest dmg number, if i'd do the raid.I want a challenge for MY charackter. I want to see if i can kill the Boss with MY stats.They aren't optimal for Raids, and they will never be. I am willing to change traits for example ; on Mirage I'd swap chaos with Dueling and get OH Pistol.

It should be possible for me to raid with others that have there own build, but it feels lacklustering in the Game itself.

Then you can make YOUR own group, with YOUR own requirements, rather than force your build on groups.

@FaboBabo.3581 said:LFG is usualy the tool to find other casual Players, except for Raids.

Wrong, LFG is a tool to find players, casual or not has nothing to do with it.

@FaboBabo.3581 said:One Problem on Raids is the Time. I never radied so i just take this from tellings.After a specific time the Raids boss gets stronger/(unkillable ?), so u NEED the full dmg set to actually kill it, before it comes to the Point. This feels not right in my opinion.It's probably to counter solo raiding or something like that, but in fact in counters casual builds more in my opinion.

Feel free to correct me, as i, repeating, never raided.

Wrong again, all timers are very forgiving and even the most casual groups usually have a few minutes to spare.Also not a single boss becomes un-killable when the timer runs out.

[Feanor.2358]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:"New players: A list of what you should do to make your raiding life easier.Go to search qtfy on Google. There is a wealth of information on each class and the builds and rotation that you should know to be a much more efficient raider.Learn and practice your rotation in the practice room. Rotations are certain order of actions or priority in skills in which to bring out more effectiveness of your class. (More information down below)Full acended may be expensive but trust me, it makes a huge difference."

The problem lies here.

I dont want to get the highest dmg number, if i'd do the raid.I want a challenge for MY charackter. I want to see if i can kill the Boss with MY stats.They aren't optimal for Raids, and they will never be. I am willing to change traits for example ; on Mirage I'd swap chaos with Dueling and get OH Pistol.

It should be possible for me to raid with others that have there own build, but it feels lacklustering in the Game itself.LFG is usualy the tool to find other casual Players, except for Raids.

One Problem on Raids is the Time. I never radied so i just take this from tellings.After a specific time the Raids boss gets stronger/(unkillable ?), so u NEED the full dmg set to actually kill it, before it comes to the Point. This feels not right in my opinion.It's probably to counter solo raiding or something like that, but in fact in counters casual builds more in my opinion.

Feel free to correct me, as i, repeating, never raided.

I'm correcting you. The enrage timers are quite relaxed, meaning you can still kill the boss with very suboptimal damage output. Proven by low-man kills. And even if you hit enrage, you can still score a kill - especially if you run off-meta (but of course, still sensible) builds. There was a hilarious case once with my guild when the remainingfive characters, all of them support with barely any damage, survived more than two minutes an enraged Matthias before finally killing him. We lacked the damage, but our sustain was so insane (two magi druids and a minstrel ele) that we were simply able to outheal the increased damage. Of course, we still needed to pay attention to the mechanics of the fight, which could surely wipe us. Nothing outheals a hadouken in the face.

It is true there are some fights with hard time limits, like Gorseval or Sabetha. But again, they don't require you to be even close to optimal.

I would say your problem is primarily in the low demand. That's why the LFG doesn't seem to work for you - because there aren't many players looking for that specific experience you do. There are two reason for that. First, the active raiders seek something different. And second, the people who would be happy to play with you don't even think about raiding. Partially they are afraid because of misconceptions, much like you are. The biggest barrier of entry to raiding isn't skill, or ascended gear. It's finding people to play with. And there's only one way I'm aware of going past it - to actively search for such people.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Maunzi.3764 said:

What I really wanted to address here is the belief that you need full ascended to raid, this is just not true.

Caveat: If you want to join pugs, yes, you need at least full ascended weapons, or they WILL kick you for poor performance. (well, at least if the group wipes. If they don't, you might be fine)

Ascended weapons are probably a good idea (at least for power builds), because they have a comparably high influence on your damage due to the buff in weapon strength. No other single item gives a 5% boost of your total damage over exotics. For most condi builds, however, it's probably negligible.

[savacli.8172]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Ascended weapons are probably a good idea (at least for power builds), because they have a comparably high influence on your damage due to the buff in weapon strength. No other single item gives a 5% boost of your total damage over exotics. For most condi builds, however, it's probably negligible.

For condition based weapons the difference was something like 3-4%? I need to look at spreadsheet again. Anyways not as noticeable as a Power based weapon, but still the highest contribution item in regards to trinkets and armor.

But anyways, yeah. The biggest pet peeve of most LFG folks is when you have someone bringing in their own outrageous build. Imagine, you see a post for a Healer. Typically you would think you'd get a Druid > Tempest> Herald since those are tried and true. But if you come in with something like a Teef Healer you gotta know that people are gonna turn you away. Like others have mentioned above, the folks in LFG, unless otherwise stated, are look for quick and easy kills so experimental builds are just a no-go.

Don't get me wrong, you could have a very solid custom build that let's you perform at an above average contribution....but how in the world are you gonna demonstrate that the LFG group? In a case like that? Yeah, you kinda gotta make your own group or join a guild that has the patience for experimenting. It'd be like me going to a breakfast and asking for buttermilk pancakes, and the waiter coming back and saying "Well, I know you said you wanted Buttermilk, but I brought you whole wheat instead because it's better". I mean, sure, he might be right, but I clearly asked for all the fattening goodness of buttermilk pancakes because that is my tried-and-true pick.

[CptAurellian.9537]

If I don't overlook anything, full ascended vs. full exotic should be something like 4-5% for condi builds, since condis don't scale off weapon strength. For power builds, the weapon alone is roughly 5%. Not because of the stats, but because of 5% increased weapon strength.

[meeflak.9714]

@Maunzi.3764 said:

What I really wanted to address here is the belief that you need full ascended to raid, this is just not true.

Caveat: If you want to join pugs, yes, you need at least full ascended weapons, or they WILL kick you for poor performance. (well, at least if the group wipes. If they don't, you might be fine)

I cannot think of a single training pug that kicked people for running a proper exotic build. And I addressed that if you know your class and rotations well you'll be okay training in exotic, so you shouldn't be kicked for poor performance, should you.. my message was geared towards someone looking for training and I tried to emphasize that you'll need to know your class and rotations

[zealex.9410]

@Maunzi.3764 said:

What I really wanted to address here is the belief that you need full ascended to raid, this is just not true.

Caveat: If you want to join pugs, yes, you need at least full ascended weapons, or they WILL kick you for poor performance. (well, at least if the group wipes. If they don't, you might be fine)

Im sorry, but they way i understood thing was that full asc= armor weapons and trinkets. Not just weapons.

[zealex.9410]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:

What I really wanted to address here is the belief that you need full ascended to raid, this is just not true.

Caveat: If you want to join pugs, yes, you need at least full ascended weapons, or they WILL kick you for poor performance. (well, at least if the group wipes. If they don't, you might be fine)

Ascended weapons are probably a good idea (at least for power builds), because they have a comparably high influence on your damage due to the buff in weapon strength. No other single item gives a 5% boost of your total damage over exotics. For most condi builds, however, it's probably negligible.

Yeah but getting asc viper stuff is Kitten

[zealex.9410]

@zealex.9410 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:

What I really wanted to address here is the belief that you need full ascended to raid, this is just not true.

Caveat: If you want to join pugs, yes, you need at least full ascended weapons, or they WILL kick you for poor performance. (well, at least if the group wipes. If they don't, you might be fine)

Ascended weapons are probably a good idea (at least for power builds), because they have a comparably high influence on your damage due to the buff in weapon strength. No other single item gives a 5% boost of your total damage over exotics. For most condi builds, however, it's probably negligible.

Yeah but getting asc viper stuff is Kitten

[meeflak.9714]

@zealex.9410 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:

What I really wanted to address here is the belief that you need full ascended to raid, this is just not true.

Caveat: If you want to join pugs, yes, you need at least full ascended weapons, or they WILL kick you for poor performance. (well, at least if the group wipes. If they don't, you might be fine)

Ascended weapons are probably a good idea (at least for power builds), because they have a comparably high influence on your damage due to the buff in weapon strength. No other single item gives a 5% boost of your total damage over exotics. For most condi builds, however, it's probably negligible.

Yeah but getting asc viper stuff is KittenAn easier way to get ascended vipers armor /weapons is to change stats on a different set type

[Rennie.6750]

Sometimes running an off-meta build will yield better damage. If I was strictly sticking to a raid meta build myself, there would be little to no room for dodges, movement, evades and other stuff I need to cast. It would require 100% time on target. I changed the rotation for something much simpler, and first I don't derp it, then, there's room for a bit of downtime. Needless to say I see much bigger numbers. Granted I only play fractals and not raids but so far all I can say about the meta builds for my class is that they're just theory for the sake of theory.

[Indecision.4513]

You don't need full ascended "anything" to kill a boss - there was a video of KING i think who did a kill in greens or something. They literally spent 3g on their gear.

What's the point here? DPS =/= gear and Skill > gear.

We had to got carried by two magi druids from our group once on cairn. Everyone else died around 10% of hp left. They did it by playing well, they were doing like 2k dps each? So yeah, you don't need sick deeps to raid.

You need to however know your class and the boss mechanics. You can practice rotations on a golem. You don't even need to use the super expensive food for that. Just know which buttons to press when.

I for one, do not play ele in raids, cause I suck at it and would probably hug the floor more often than not. I do however know how to play my guard on engie and do enough to not be carried per se.

How do you find ppl to play with? Well there's the LFG tool with plenty of training runs going on. The only requirement is that you are actually willing to learn and don't suck at your class.

[Cynn.1659]

Most people don't realize this. Skill > DPS. Having ascended gear won't help you much, if you mash keys at random, and die to every mechanic Good player in green gear, will always outdps bad player in full asc,

[Ithilwen.1529]

Meh, the raiders in general have been unfriendly. I'd like to raid , just to be able to say I'd done it. I have full asc gear and weapons ( and 3 legendaries ) and I still get hassles. Maybe like dungeons in a couple of years people will chill and raiding will be an option.

[Mossy Gargoyle.3274]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Meh, the raiders in general have been unfriendly. I'd like to raid , just to be able to say I'd done it. I have full asc gear and weapons ( and 3 legendaries ) and I still get hassles. Maybe like dungeons in a couple of years people will chill and raiding will be an option.

Form your own group for beginners, establish "chill" expectations, and learn the fights like everyone else who raids. Then you'll accomplish your goal. Does that sound reasonable?

[ugrakarma.9416]

the best new players can do, inst raiding and let the whole thing die. The leg. armor is already extremely ugly anyway. Actually Fractals have best balance of community//hard content.

[Edu.6984]

If they want to help new players they should just remove the enrage mechanics, but scale the reward you get by the time you take to kill. X minutes Gold, Y minutes silver, Z minutes bronze. Similar to HoT adventures where there are 3 tiers of rewards.

For a pug winning bronze incentives him to get better and eventually reach gold, even if the bronze reward is weak it is better than nothing. The current system makes pugs wipe and get nothing, so most of them just go do something else. It is all or nothing. New players go there, fails, get nothing, go do something else with a better gold per hour or more fun (wvw, spvp, etc...).

@ugrakarma.9416 said:the best new players can do, inst raiding and let the whole thing die. The leg. armor is already extremely ugly anyway. Actually Fractals have best balance of community//hard content.

Game areas will receive more attention of Anet if they have more players on it. If twice as much people did raids, probably there would be more frequent updates or at least more attention from the developer.

[CptAurellian.9537]

And it actually did not come to your mind that attaching the amount of shinies received from boss kills to kill time might increase toxicity to a wholly new level? I'm pretty sure it will. The current system is fine - enrage timers only matter when you've seriously screwed up something. In that case, it's a proper punishment.

[Indecision.4513]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Meh, the raiders in general have been unfriendly. I'd like to raid , just to be able to say I'd done it. I have full asc gear and weapons ( and 3 legendaries ) and I still get hassles. Maybe like dungeons in a couple of years people will chill and raiding will be an option.

Full ascended Nomad's gear doesn't count you know :) /joke

If you want to raid, join training runs and make sure you know the boss/your class and can fill your role competently. Apart from random pugs I've never met this "unfriendly" raiding community ppl quote all the time. Then again, no one likes to carry a full ascended all legendary 5k dps ele :-)

If you're on EU - The Crossroads Inn is where you want to be - among a few others.

[Edu.6984]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:And it actually did not come to your mind that attaching the amount of shinies received from boss kills to kill time might increase toxicity to a wholly new level? I'm pretty sure it will. The current system is fine - enrage timers only matter when you've seriously screwed up something. In that case, it's a proper punishment.

Right now it pretty already attaches the shinnies to kill time. Kill before enrage = 100% shinies, enrage and wipe = 0% shinies. The toxicity would be the same or smaller. if they create more steps between 100% and 0%. Gold = 100%, silver = 70%, bronze = 50%, iron = 25%. Make the current enrage time reward gold, +1 minute = silver, +2 minutes = bronze, +infinite = iron.

Without attracting new players raids will end up like todays dungeons on the long run.