Do You Find The Game More Fun To Play Now Or Before Revamp

[Lighter.5631]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:@Arheundel.6451 man, you may be low gold in game, but you sure is legendary rating in the forum, what's your main? forum warrior? where you find the confidence to call other bias, when you are most bias person in this forum, you can't read irony or something?

also look at your posts post feb 25th, why don't you start arguing with yourself in your own thread

Honestly speaking....you complained about damage and sustain on other professions even before Feb25th....yet you call other biased...maybe it's time for you to learn something more than bull's rush/Rampage spellbreaker

you still havent explain why you prefer a less skilled meta

So huge damage is skilled meta...the lockdown builds were skilled...

wait so landing huge damage is less skilled then no damage passive faceroll tanks? isnt there more lockdown builds now then before feb 25thyou are not making sense and contradict yourself so much

If landing huge damage is always skilled...I don't know why people were complaining about specs like Fresh air and Lightning rod, the same people who claim there is not enough dmg...are the same who asked for LR nerfs not long ago....that is a contradiction but it's easy to see the reason : it wasn't their class doing the dmg.

In the end landing huge dmg is skilled...as long as it's your class doing it..otherwise nerf it . Now stop going in circles with your charade, unless you can explain why you were asking for nerfs on LR while here you ask for dmg to be reverted

i can easily 1v1 warrior on fresh air pre feb 25th, it was so easy, only thing that made fresh air unviable is rev/thief/mesbuilds in the same big damage category doesn't mean they require equal skill. because firebrand and tempest and bunker soulbeast and condi rev all require the same effort to play, use the tiny brain of yours, dude.

I don't lower myself by insulting people with derogatory comments, I don't consider you anymore worth of a response or consideration

yes dude, that's good, stop posting in my thread, so we can finally see some constructive arguments going with basic sense and logic.

Nothing here is yours..not even the character that you play...don't post on any forum if you can't handle "human" interactions

Why are you still responding tho, i thought i didn't worth of a response.

[Lighter.5631]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.

Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.

They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.

Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.

And what is good design?

1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"

I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.

If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"

Maybe we would get somewhere.......

Funny that you bring up fighting games.

And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"

This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.

Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.

Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."

GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.

GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.

Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.

So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?

Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.

You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.

You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance.

Stop trying to act smart and answer my question

I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!

My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.

But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?

1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.

The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."

it's not about warrior/ele, dude can't simply understand the fact that, even when big damage is more skilled then tank build, there is still less skilled build in big damage builds that require nerfing. it's not about the classes really, it's about basic understanding, he simply can't comprehend the concept of cast time and animation and set ups.and just by chance he's also an extremely biased elementalist.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:@Arheundel.6451 man, you may be low gold in game, but you sure is legendary rating in the forum, what's your main? forum warrior? where you find the confidence to call other bias, when you are most bias person in this forum, you can't read irony or something?

also look at your posts post feb 25th, why don't you start arguing with yourself in your own thread

Honestly speaking....you complained about damage and sustain on other professions even before Feb25th....yet you call other biased...maybe it's time for you to learn something more than bull's rush/Rampage spellbreaker

you still havent explain why you prefer a less skilled meta

So huge damage is skilled meta...the lockdown builds were skilled...

wait so landing huge damage is less skilled then no damage passive faceroll tanks? isnt there more lockdown builds now then before feb 25thyou are not making sense and contradict yourself so much

If landing huge damage is always skilled...I don't know why people were complaining about specs like Fresh air and Lightning rod, the same people who claim there is not enough dmg...are the same who asked for LR nerfs not long ago....that is a contradiction but it's easy to see the reason : it wasn't their class doing the dmg.

In the end landing huge dmg is skilled...as long as it's your class doing it..otherwise nerf it . Now stop going in circles with your charade, unless you can explain why you were asking for nerfs on LR while here you ask for dmg to be reverted

i can easily 1v1 warrior on fresh air pre feb 25th, it was so easy, only thing that made fresh air unviable is rev/thief/mesbuilds in the same big damage category doesn't mean they require equal skill. because firebrand and tempest and bunker soulbeast and condi rev all require the same effort to play, use the tiny brain of yours, dude.

Speaking of which

[Lighter.5631]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:@Arheundel.6451 man, you may be low gold in game, but you sure is legendary rating in the forum, what's your main? forum warrior? where you find the confidence to call other bias, when you are most bias person in this forum, you can't read irony or something?

also look at your posts post feb 25th, why don't you start arguing with yourself in your own thread

Honestly speaking....you complained about damage and sustain on other professions even before Feb25th....yet you call other biased...maybe it's time for you to learn something more than bull's rush/Rampage spellbreaker

you still havent explain why you prefer a less skilled meta

So huge damage is skilled meta...the lockdown builds were skilled...

wait so landing huge damage is less skilled then no damage passive faceroll tanks? isnt there more lockdown builds now then before feb 25thyou are not making sense and contradict yourself so much

If landing huge damage is always skilled...I don't know why people were complaining about specs like Fresh air and Lightning rod, the same people who claim there is not enough dmg...are the same who asked for LR nerfs not long ago....that is a contradiction but it's easy to see the reason : it wasn't their class doing the dmg.

In the end landing huge dmg is skilled...as long as it's your class doing it..otherwise nerf it . Now stop going in circles with your charade, unless you can explain why you were asking for nerfs on LR while here you ask for dmg to be reverted

i can easily 1v1 warrior on fresh air pre feb 25th, it was so easy, only thing that made fresh air unviable is rev/thief/mesbuilds in the same big damage category doesn't mean they require equal skill. because firebrand and tempest and bunker soulbeast and condi rev all require the same effort to play, use the tiny brain of yours, dude.

Speaking of which

exactly, like it's so easy for fresh air to kill warrior, it's not even funny, any ele who can't kill warrior on fresh air really shouldn't be talking about balance really, whata joke @Arheundel.6451 is.

[Arheundel.6451]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.

Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.

They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.

Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.

And what is good design?

1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"

I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.

If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"

Maybe we would get somewhere.......

Funny that you bring up fighting games.

And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"

This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.

Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.

Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."

GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.

GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.

Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.

So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?

Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.

You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.

You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance.

Stop trying to act smart and answer my question

I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!

My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.

But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?

1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.

Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.

The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."

It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.

Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health , I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen , even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.

There is nothing to justify that damage other than class bias, ofc I don't agree with perma stalemate but neither I will ever accept a "one shot" meta where you die if you miss one dodge...it's stupid, it's ill designed, it's not for a MMO

[mortrialus.3062]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.

Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.

They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.

Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.

And what is good design?

1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"

I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.

If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"

Maybe we would get somewhere.......

Funny that you bring up fighting games.

And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"

This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.

Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.

Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."

GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.

GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.

Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.

So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?

Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.

You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.

You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance.

Stop trying to act smart and answer my question

I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!

My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.

But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?

1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.

Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.

The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."

It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.

I'm using derail because you're derailing from my overall point that the game is more sound competitively with high impact skills, that are avoidable, with clear tells, that fights should always inevitably end with a victor, and that the PvP game mode is at it's most exciting when every offensive and defensive skill on both sides of the fight and how they are used have serious ramifications for the fight going forward. And you're derailing it for some petty class vendetta against Warrior.

Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health , I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen , even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.

And yet even with that era Ele had a build that could go toe to toe with and was significantly favored against Spellbreaker in the form of Fire Weaver.

There is nothing to justify that damage other than class bias, ofc I don't agree with perma stalemate but neither I will ever accept a "one shot" meta where you die if you miss one dodge...it's stupid, it's ill designed, it's not for a MMO

Lol. If anything GW2 is merciful in how limited it actually has been to truly one shot a player compared to basically every other MMORPG that has ever existed. I don't think builds should be able to just one shot anything they look at. But you should die if you miss the wrong dodge at the wrong time.

[Arheundel.6451]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:@Arheundel.6451 man, you may be low gold in game, but you sure is legendary rating in the forum, what's your main? forum warrior? where you find the confidence to call other bias, when you are most bias person in this forum, you can't read irony or something?

also look at your posts post feb 25th, why don't you start arguing with yourself in your own thread

Honestly speaking....you complained about damage and sustain on other professions even before Feb25th....yet you call other biased...maybe it's time for you to learn something more than bull's rush/Rampage spellbreaker

you still havent explain why you prefer a less skilled meta

So huge damage is skilled meta...the lockdown builds were skilled...

wait so landing huge damage is less skilled then no damage passive faceroll tanks? isnt there more lockdown builds now then before feb 25thyou are not making sense and contradict yourself so much

If landing huge damage is always skilled...I don't know why people were complaining about specs like Fresh air and Lightning rod, the same people who claim there is not enough dmg...are the same who asked for LR nerfs not long ago....that is a contradiction but it's easy to see the reason : it wasn't their class doing the dmg.

In the end landing huge dmg is skilled...as long as it's your class doing it..otherwise nerf it . Now stop going in circles with your charade, unless you can explain why you were asking for nerfs on LR while here you ask for dmg to be reverted

i can easily 1v1 warrior on fresh air pre feb 25th, it was so easy, only thing that made fresh air unviable is rev/thief/mesbuilds in the same big damage category doesn't mean they require equal skill. because firebrand and tempest and bunker soulbeast and condi rev all require the same effort to play, use the tiny brain of yours, dude.

Speaking of which

Did you check the date of the video before posting it?

Here a relevant thread https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/23586/air-scepter-burst-ele-weaver-too-much-damage-in-a-too-short-amount-of-time/p1

There is one thing that you miss from your arguments : risk=reward ratio, which was the focal point of the last balance patch ; some specs were capable of way too much damage for the level of sustain they had and one of those builds were indeed warrior among others.

The rule should be : "you die as fast as you kill" which has always been true for an offensive ele that wears marauder amulet, the FA dmg was more than justified given how easy you could die on it...meanwhile warriors were wearing demolisher amulet and were doing even more damage......

[Arheundel.6451]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.

Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.

They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.

Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.

And what is good design?

1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"

I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.

If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"

Maybe we would get somewhere.......

Funny that you bring up fighting games.

And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"

This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.

Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.

Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."

GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.

GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.

Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.

So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?

Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.

You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.

You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance.

Stop trying to act smart and answer my question

I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!

My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.

But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?

1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.

Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.

The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."

It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.

I'm using derail because you're derailing from my overall point that the game is more sound competitively with high impact skills, that are avoidable, with clear tells, that fights should always inevitably end with a victor, and that the PvP game mode is at it's most exciting when every offensive and defensive skill on both sides of the fight and how they are used have serious ramifications for the fight going forward. And you're derailing it for some petty class vendetta against Warrior.

Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health ,

I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen

, even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.

And yet even with that era Ele had a build that could go toe to toe with and was significantly favored against Spellbreaker in the form of Fire Weaver.

There is nothing to justify that damage other than class bias, ofc I don't agree with perma stalemate but neither I will ever accept a "one shot" meta where you die if you miss one dodge...it's stupid, it's ill designed, it's not for a MMO

Lol. If anything GW2 is merciful in how limited it actually has been to truly one shot a player compared to basically every other MMORPG that has ever existed. I don't think builds should be able to just one shot anything they look at. But you should die if you miss the wrong dodge at the wrong time.

Again you're using builds to justify your argument , I should not be forced to play bunker in order to play the game....why don't add a stats check to pvp at this point? It won't allow people to use certain classes in pvp unless they reach a certain level of healing power/toughness/vitality...else they become a detriment for the team.

I think people bought GW2 because it wasn't like other MMOs and if that's what you want..then go play there

[UNOwen.7132]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.

Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.

They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.

Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.

And what is good design?

1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"

I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.

If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"

Maybe we would get somewhere.......

Funny that you bring up fighting games.

And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"

This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.

Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.

Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."

GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.

GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.

Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.

So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?

Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.

You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.

You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance.

Stop trying to act smart and answer my question

I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!

My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.

But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?

1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.

Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.

The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."

It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.

I'm using derail because you're derailing from my overall point that the game is more sound competitively with high impact skills, that are avoidable, with clear tells, that fights should always inevitably end with a victor, and that the PvP game mode is at it's most exciting when every offensive and defensive skill on both sides of the fight and how they are used have serious ramifications for the fight going forward. And you're derailing it for some petty class vendetta against Warrior.

Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health ,

I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen

, even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.

And yet even with that era Ele had a build that could go toe to toe with and was significantly favored against Spellbreaker in the form of Fire Weaver.

There is nothing to justify that damage other than class bias, ofc I don't agree with perma stalemate but neither I will ever accept a "one shot" meta where you die if you miss one dodge...it's stupid, it's ill designed, it's not for a MMO

Lol. If anything GW2 is merciful in how limited it actually has been to truly one shot a player compared to basically every other MMORPG that has ever existed. I don't think builds should be able to just one shot anything they look at. But you should die if you miss the wrong dodge at the wrong time.

Again you're using builds to justify your argument , I should not be forced to play bunker in order to play the game....why don't add a stats check to pvp at this point? It won't allow people to use certain classes in pvp unless they reach a certain level of healing power/toughness/vitality...else they become a detriment for the team.

I think people bought GW2 because it wasn't like other MMOs and if that's what you want..then go play there

You know, people would take you more seriously if (besides not being insanely biased), you actually read what people are writing. At no point does he say that you have to play bunker in order to play the game. Hell, thats a load of bollocks seeing how thats only true after the patch, where bunkers are rampant, whereas before the patch bunkers were just one of many options.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.

Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.

They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.

Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.

And what is good design?

1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"

I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.

If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"

Maybe we would get somewhere.......

Funny that you bring up fighting games.

And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"

This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.

Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.

Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."

GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.

GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.

Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.

So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?

Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.

You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.

You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance.

Stop trying to act smart and answer my question

I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!

My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.

But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?

1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.

Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.

The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."

It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.

I'm using derail because you're derailing from my overall point that the game is more sound competitively with high impact skills, that are avoidable, with clear tells, that fights should always inevitably end with a victor, and that the PvP game mode is at it's most exciting when every offensive and defensive skill on both sides of the fight and how they are used have serious ramifications for the fight going forward. And you're derailing it for some petty class vendetta against Warrior.

Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health ,

I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen

, even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.

And yet even with that era Ele had a build that could go toe to toe with and was significantly favored against Spellbreaker in the form of Fire Weaver.

There is nothing to justify that damage other than class bias, ofc I don't agree with perma stalemate but neither I will ever accept a "one shot" meta where you die if you miss one dodge...it's stupid, it's ill designed, it's not for a MMO

Lol. If anything GW2 is merciful in how limited it actually has been to truly one shot a player compared to basically every other MMORPG that has ever existed. I don't think builds should be able to just one shot anything they look at. But you should die if you miss the wrong dodge at the wrong time.

Again you're using builds to justify your argument ,

I used a hypothetical, like the way Core-A-Gaming walked through a potential Zangief vs Ryu match up and the interplay of mindgames and predicting what your opponent is going to do and maneuvering around each other, and wasn't commenting on the specific power or how balanced the two fighters are in relation to each other and the game as a whole.

I should not be forced to play bunker in order to play the game....why don't add a stats check to pvp at this point? It won't allow people to use certain classes in pvp unless they reach a certain level of healing power/toughness/vitality...else they become a detriment for the team.

It's funny you have such a weird vendetta against Warrior and Spellbreaker considering multiple threads and multiple polls across PoF's entire life warrior and spellbreaker consistently won as the most fun and fair class to fight.

"You die as fast as you kill" but Spellbreaker DID die easy when caught off guard, especially once they moved away from Defense Spec onto Strength. It DID die easy when you baited defensive cooldowns. They had high melee damage, excellent active defenses, but bad self healing that's a serious double edged sword with how it's 100% gradual. A warrior running Healing Signet, even with Might Makes Right and Magebane Tether, had very little capacity to make a comeback from a fight going poorly. They couldn't just snap from 20% to 100% health the way Engineers could and still can.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.

Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.

They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.

Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.

And what is good design?

1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"

I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.

If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"

Maybe we would get somewhere.......

Funny that you bring up fighting games.

And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"

This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.

Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.

Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."

GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.

GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.

Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.

So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?

Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.

You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.

You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance.

Stop trying to act smart and answer my question

I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!

My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.

But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?

1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.

Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.

The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."

It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.

No he isnt. You are indeed derailing the argument. Its something you do a lot.

Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health , I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen , even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.

Same reason why being counterhit by Susanoo in BBCF makes you lost almost all of your health. Competitive games are at their most interesting when big mistakes get punished hard. It becomes a dance of trying to make the enemy misstep, while avoiding their attempts to do the same. Instead what we have right now is a meta where you can screw up repeatedly and not die. Its no longer a high skill, high stakes game of errors, but instead fights are just decided by who outnumbers who, and whose build beats whose.

There is nothing to justify that damage other than class bias, ofc I don't agree with perma stalemate but neither I will ever accept a "one shot" meta where you die if you miss one dodge...it's stupid, it's ill designed, it's not for a MMO

Yeah except despite people repeating that nonsense point (a lot), you didnt "die if you miss one dodge". But you did get punished for screwing up. In fact, Im starting to think that maybe you just hated that people could punish you for messing up, and that the reason you like this meta is because you can keep making big mistake after big mistake without dying.

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.

Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.

They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.

Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.

And what is good design?

1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"

I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.

If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"

Maybe we would get somewhere.......

Funny that you bring up fighting games.

And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"

This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.

Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.

Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."

GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.

GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.

Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.

So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?

Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.

You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.

You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance.

Stop trying to act smart and answer my question

I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!

My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.

But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?

1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.

Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.

The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."

It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.

Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health ,

I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen

, even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.

Same reason why being counterhit by Susanoo in BBCF makes you lost almost all of your health.

[Arheundel.6451]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.

Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.

The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.

They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.

Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.

And what is good design?

1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"

I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.

If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"

Maybe we would get somewhere.......

Funny that you bring up fighting games.

And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"

This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.

Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.

Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."

GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.

GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.

Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.

So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?

Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.

You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.

You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance.

Stop trying to act smart and answer my question

I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!

My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.

But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?

1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.

Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.

The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."

It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.

I'm using derail because you're derailing from my overall point that the game is more sound competitively with high impact skills, that are avoidable, with clear tells, that fights should always inevitably end with a victor, and that the PvP game mode is at it's most exciting when every offensive and defensive skill on both sides of the fight and how they are used have serious ramifications for the fight going forward. And you're derailing it for some petty class vendetta against Warrior.

Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health ,

I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen

, even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.

And yet even with that era Ele had a build that could go toe to toe with and was significantly favored against Spellbreaker in the form of Fire Weaver.

There is nothing to justify that damage other than class bias, ofc I don't agree with perma stalemate but neither I will ever accept a "one shot" meta where you die if you miss one dodge...it's stupid, it's ill designed, it's not for a MMO

Lol. If anything GW2 is merciful in how limited it actually has been to truly one shot a player compared to basically every other MMORPG that has ever existed. I don't think builds should be able to just one shot anything they look at. But you should die if you miss the wrong dodge at the wrong time.

Again you're using builds to justify your argument ,

I used a hypothetical, like the way Core-A-Gaming walked through a potential Zangief vs Ryu match up and the interplay of mindgames and predicting what your opponent is going to do and maneuvering around each other, and wasn't commenting on the specific power or how balanced the two fighters are in relation to each other and the game as a whole.

I should not be forced to play bunker in order to play the game....why don't add a stats check to pvp at this point? It won't allow people to use certain classes in pvp unless they reach a certain level of healing power/toughness/vitality...else they become a detriment for the team.

It's funny you have such a weird vendetta against Warrior and Spellbreaker considering multiple threads and multiple polls across PoF's entire life warrior and spellbreaker consistently won as the most fun and fair class to fight.

"You die as fast as you kill" but Spellbreaker DID die easy when caught off guard, especially once they moved away from Defense Spec onto Strength. It DID die easy when you baited defensive cooldowns. They had high melee damage, excellent active defenses, but bad self healing that's a serious double edged sword with how it's 100% gradual. A warrior running Healing Signet, even with Might Makes Right and Magebane Tether, had very little capacity to make a comeback from a fight going poorly. They couldn't just snap from 20% to 100% health the way Engineers could and still can.

There is no vendetta here, simply putting it effort = reward if at any time effort<reward...I will complain because I won't be happy .About the "lack" of heal burst, I made the calculation with "might makes me right" countless times already that proves how wrong you are at least before the Feb25th patch, before that a warrior spellbreaker could heal up to 4300 every 20s at least with "for greater justice" or by using ="Frenzy" + might sigils +runes...before the patch that trait was 133 point for might stack...you do the math now

[Leonidrex.5649]

@mortrialus.3062@Lighter.5631guys guys argue with @Arheundel.6451 at your own discretion.What bad med is to hating mesmer this dude is to loving ele, at least for now. :D

[Arheundel.6451]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@mortrialus.3062@Lighter.5631guys guys argue with @Arheundel.6451 at your own discretion.What bad med is to hating mesmer this dude is to loving ele, at least for now. :D

Don't put words into my mouth thank you. Never hated mesmer but always hated low effort=huge rewards builds , never complained about power mesmer but I complained about condi mirage..not even bunker chrono bothered me that much and not surprisingly that's when you started to play mesmer...on a chrono bunker then jumped on condi mirage..and here you are complaining about mesmers...like you played mesmer since launch or even succeed with a power mesmer.

Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.

Always bowed down in respect to a power mesmer, fought them with offensive builds always and it could go both ways...not like those clowns camping staff, hiding behind a column while the clones apply 3-4 condis for bounce.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@mortrialus.3062@Lighter.5631guys guys argue with @Arheundel.6451 at your own discretion.What bad med is to hating mesmer this dude is to loving ele, at least for now. :D

Don't put words into my mouth thank you. Never hated mesmer but always hated low effort=huge rewards builds , never complained about power mesmer but I complained about condi mirage..not even bunker chrono bothered me that much and not surprisingly that's when you started to play mesmer...on a chrono bunker then jumped on condi mirage..and here you are complaining about mesmers...like you played mesmer since launch or even succeed with a power mesmer.

Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.

Always bowed down in respect to a power mesmer, fought them with offensive builds always and it could go both ways...not like those clowns camping staff, hiding behind a column while the clones apply 3-4 condis for bounce.

U complain about mesmers high dps for low effort but what's high effort to u cuz I remember u defending rangers in the days they could pop sic em and drop even bunkers with a rapid fire from 1500+ range. Is 2 button presses from a safe range high effort cuz the damage was justified to u then, they can still almost do the same. Oh wait back then ranger was ur main but now its ele so in ur eyes ele will always remain underpowered and never op, that is unless u change mains again emiright? Lol

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@mortrialus.3062@Lighter.5631guys guys argue with @Arheundel.6451 at your own discretion.What bad med is to hating mesmer this dude is to loving ele, at least for now. :D

Don't put words into my mouth thank you. Never hated mesmer but always hated low effort=huge rewards builds , never complained about power mesmer but I complained about condi mirage..not even bunker chrono bothered me that much and not surprisingly that's when you started to play mesmer...on a chrono bunker then jumped on condi mirage..and here you are complaining about mesmers...like you played mesmer since launch or even succeed with a power mesmer.

Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.

Always bowed down in respect to a power mesmer, fought them with offensive builds always and it could go both ways...not like those clowns camping staff, hiding behind a column while the clones apply 3-4 condis for bounce.

Oh and to add all classes but ur mains are OP or in a great state even when viewed otherwise by the majority of the community, am I wrong?

[Arheundel.6451]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@mortrialus.3062@Lighter.5631guys guys argue with @Arheundel.6451 at your own discretion.What bad med is to hating mesmer this dude is to loving ele, at least for now. :D

Don't put words into my mouth thank you. Never hated mesmer but always hated low effort=huge rewards builds , never complained about power mesmer but I complained about condi mirage..not even bunker chrono bothered me that much and not surprisingly that's when you started to play mesmer...on a chrono bunker then jumped on condi mirage..and here you are complaining about mesmers...like you played mesmer since launch or even succeed with a power mesmer.

Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.

Always bowed down in respect to a power mesmer, fought them with offensive builds always and it could go both ways...not like those clowns camping staff, hiding behind a column while the clones apply 3-4 condis for bounce.

U complain about mesmers high dps for low effort but what's high effort to u cuz I remember u defending rangers in the days they could pop sic em and drop even bunkers with a rapid fire from 1500+ range.

The only part of the post I can read ....I complained about the removal of unblockable at the time which was really important in that meta, after that I stated that it's is easy to negate a LB ranger burst by moving behind anything...a couple of dodges will do too, after that you're left facing a glass cannon build with 3 offensive traitlines and very minimal condi clear.

I find that more fair to fight than a staff condi mirage and given how the same devs regarded that spec as "deplorable" ...I don't have anything else to say to you

[Tycura.1982]

Imagine complaining about warrior. Imagine thinking melee should do less damage than ranged.

One size damage fits all lets not think about the classes by their unique abilities he says.

Slow play is skilled.

Smh I'm laffin

[Arheundel.6451]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@mortrialus.3062@Lighter.5631guys guys argue with @Arheundel.6451 at your own discretion.What bad med is to hating mesmer this dude is to loving ele, at least for now. :D

Don't put words into my mouth thank you. Never hated mesmer but always hated low effort=huge rewards builds , never complained about power mesmer but I complained about condi mirage..not even bunker chrono bothered me that much and not surprisingly that's when you started to play mesmer...on a chrono bunker then jumped on condi mirage..and here you are complaining about mesmers...like you played mesmer since launch or even succeed with a power mesmer.

Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.

Always bowed down in respect to a power mesmer, fought them with offensive builds always and it could go both ways...not like those clowns camping staff, hiding behind a column while the clones apply 3-4 condis for bounce.

Oh and to add all classes but ur mains are OP or in a great state even when viewed otherwise by the majority of the community, am I wrong?

You're not the majority....you and your marry go around band of vocalists are not the majority...you're deluding yourself in thinking otherwise

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@mortrialus.3062@Lighter.5631guys guys argue with @Arheundel.6451 at your own discretion.What bad med is to hating mesmer this dude is to loving ele, at least for now. :D

Don't put words into my mouth thank you. Never hated mesmer but always hated low effort=huge rewards builds , never complained about power mesmer but I complained about condi mirage..not even bunker chrono bothered me that much and not surprisingly that's when you started to play mesmer...on a chrono bunker then jumped on condi mirage..and here you are complaining about mesmers...like you played mesmer since launch or even succeed with a power mesmer.

Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.

Always bowed down in respect to a power mesmer, fought them with offensive builds always and it could go both ways...not like those clowns camping staff, hiding behind a column while the clones apply 3-4 condis for bounce.

Oh and to add all classes but ur mains are OP or in a great state even when viewed otherwise by the majority of the community, am I wrong?

You're not the majority....you and your marry go around band of vocalists are not the majority...you're deluding yourself in thinking otherwise

I never said I was the majority, me stating the majority disagreeing with u down not imply I myself am any kind of majority. Is English not ur first language, if not I understand.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Does* dry my edit button isnt working 2 days now.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@mortrialus.3062@Lighter.5631guys guys argue with @Arheundel.6451 at your own discretion.What bad med is to hating mesmer this dude is to loving ele, at least for now. :D

Don't put words into my mouth thank you. Never hated mesmer but always hated low effort=huge rewards builds , never complained about power mesmer but I complained about condi mirage..not even bunker chrono bothered me that much and not surprisingly that's when you started to play mesmer...on a chrono bunker then jumped on condi mirage..and here you are complaining about mesmers...like you played mesmer since launch or even succeed with a power mesmer.

Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.

Always bowed down in respect to a power mesmer, fought them with offensive builds always and it could go both ways...not like those clowns camping staff, hiding behind a column while the clones apply 3-4 condis for bounce.

Oh and to add all classes but ur mains are OP or in a great state even when viewed otherwise by the majority of the community, am I wrong?

You're not the majority....you and your marry go around band of vocalists are not the majority...you're deluding yourself in thinking otherwise

I don't really understand ur logic, I mean I get bias yeah but when every streamer makes comments about mesmer or warrior being the weakest class/classes in game backed up by lack of play or showings from these very classes in high lv rankings or tournaments among even more anecdotal proof I feel like I really dont have any reason to prove why ur views on war and mes arnt shared by most other.

[Arheundel.6451]

@fumcheg.1936 said:Now is obviously better. Still not good enough but better than it was before. They just need to tune down condi in general and survivability of some specs.

It was the same low skilled trash before but ppl back then didn't have to put any effort and just could do the same skill rotation over and over to destroy other classes that had fewer blocks/invuls/so on. Now they cannot do that (except some broken specs), of course they are unhappy.

That's all that needed to be said in this thread, the rest is just noise

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Arheundel.6451"found your problem for you friend, reading and interpreting ... you fall short on that aspect.never said you hated on mesmer.I said and I quote " What bad med is to hating mesmer this dude is to loving ele, at least for now. "All I said is that you defend ele as hard as badmend attack mesmer