Retaliation problems

[Safandula.8723]

so in my opinion (not only mine) its the worst boon ever created, and i mean it both in pve and pvp/wvw.In my understanding, if u can hit the enemy, ur basicly outplaying him/it, as u can do dmg to him while ur not dieing. Now granting enemy passive buff that deals dmg to you for outplaying him is rly bad design. for example last time i was chasing minstrel fb in wvw, and i was doing more dmg to myself than to him, while he was just RUNNING AWAY. Same in small scale fights in wvw if ur facing some firebrands. Usually retaliation is the biggest part of incoming dmg. This buff needs either rework, or needs to be removed.Same for pve. Gorseval retaliation is good thing, as its temporary. You need to break bar to finish it - u get counterplay. In 99 cm, kraits randomly getting retal (from guardian halucinations i suppose), can passivly kill you, even if u stunlock them and they basicly dont do anything. Same in new map. some of the bosses getting retal, force you to stop attacking - its just annoying design, where u need to wait it out, and dont deal dmg at all.Please instead of giving passive retaliation, replace it with some more active mechanics, as current design of this boon is just terrible

[Omega.6801]

Retal is there to punish players who mindlessly go MAXDPSZOMGRAWR!!!!!!. It's fine. Rip it, corrupt it or wait with your burst for the retal to go down.

[Mega.5791]

I would love an internal CD on retal damage, yeah. Tempest FA for example kills itself in seconds without any chance, because you cannot walk out of the already existing field. Against several enemies, the quickly hitting lighning strikes... yeah. Avoiding Overload Air is hardly possible for that build, so whenever I see retal, I avoid playing ele completely. Which is a shame, really, because I love smashing people with Overload Air and Warhorn Air 5. :disappointed:

[Safandula.8723]

@"lokh.2695" said:Retal is there to punish players who mindlessly go MAXDPSZOMGRAWR!!!!!!. It's fine. Rip it, corrupt it or wait with your burst for the retal to go down.

"waiting" is not a good nor fun counterplay

[Omega.6801]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@"lokh.2695" said:Retal is there to punish players who mindlessly go MAXDPSZOMGRAWR!!!!!!. It's fine. Rip it, corrupt it or wait with your burst for the retal to go down.

"waiting" is not a good nor fun counterplay

We are talking about a "wait" of a few seconds. You can do it, I have full confidence in your abilities.

[Safandula.8723]

@lokh.2695 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@lokh.2695 said:Retal is there to punish players who mindlessly go MAXDPSZOMGRAWR!!!!!!. It's fine. Rip it, corrupt it or wait with your burst for the retal to go down.

"waiting" is not a good nor fun counterplay

We are talking about a "wait" of a few seconds. You can do it, I have full confidence in your abilities.

im rly curious if u rly think waiting (even few seconds) is engaging gameplay for you, or you just want to argue

[Omega.6801]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@lokh.2695 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@lokh.2695 said:Retal is there to punish players who mindlessly go MAXDPSZOMGRAWR!!!!!!. It's fine. Rip it, corrupt it or wait with your burst for the retal to go down.

"waiting" is not a good nor fun counterplay

We are talking about a "wait" of a few seconds. You can do it, I have full confidence in your abilities.

im rly curious if u rly think waiting (even few seconds) is engaging gameplay for you, or you just want to argue

Waiting, as in timing your burst at the right moment is, at least for me, more engaging than being able to go full DPS anytime.

[Yggranya.5201]

@"lokh.2695" said:Retal is there to punish players who mindlessly go MAXDPSZOMGRAWR!!!!!!. It's fine. Rip it, corrupt it or wait with your burst for the retal to go down.

If it only lasted a short time and had something that would help you notice it's coming then yes, but (i only know about PvE) it instantly happens, you can't do anything, It can lasts forever unless you have some boon strip (so no "strategy" you have it, it means nothing, you don't, you stand there and do nothing or you kill yourself) and it can get reapplied too easily and too often.

[FrostSpectre.4198]

Unless its nearly mindless horde attacks in WvW, waiting is part of the game, wait for opening and use it.Putting internal cooldown on Retaliation could break the boon, atleast for Guardians who use it the most.On its own Retaliation only deals damage back, unlike Aura's which usually seem to do two things at once.

And usually people bait others to attack them in order to make most of this boon.

In my opinion its far better gameplay in PvE where you have to think atleast abit how to engage, rather than mindlessly just attacking.

Allowing game to be completed with only mindless attacking is a rather big problem in core GW2...Its uncreative and gets boring fast. And its easy for botters to abuse for easy pathing and farming.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@"lokh.2695" said:Retal is there to punish players who mindlessly go MAXDPSZOMGRAWR!!!!!!. It's fine. Rip it, corrupt it or wait with your burst for the retal to go down.

If it only lasted a short time and had something that would help you notice it's coming then yes, but (i only know about PvE) it instantly happens, you can't do anything, It can lasts forever unless you have some boon strip (so no "strategy" you have it, it means nothing, you don't, you stand there and do nothing or you kill yourself) and it can get reapplied too easily and too often.

In the case of Drizzlewood, even if you do have boon strip that isn't going to mean much since every mob there can have it popping up randomly. You can strip it then it procs on the next mob and strip that then it procs on the next strip that ...

Now we see who is the real person who is "mindlessly" attacking. ;)

[Yggranya.5201]

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@"lokh.2695" said:Retal is there to punish players who mindlessly go MAXDPSZOMGRAWR!!!!!!. It's fine. Rip it, corrupt it or wait with your burst for the retal to go down.

If it only lasted a short time and had something that would help you notice it's coming then yes, but (i only know about PvE) it instantly happens, you can't do anything, It can lasts forever unless you have some boon strip (so no "strategy" you have it, it means nothing, you don't, you stand there and do nothing or you kill yourself) and it can get reapplied too easily and too often.

In the case of Drizzlewood, even if you do have boon strip that isn't going to mean much since every mob there can have it popping up randomly. You can strip it then it procs on the next mob and strip that then it procs on the next strip that ...

Now we see who is the real person who is "mindlessly" attacking. ;)

Indeed, but it's "challenging" so it's fine, right? Heh.

[saerni.2584]

So NPCs that have a boon based period where attacking them hurts you is bad now?

What?

Wait a few seconds if you build doesn’t have a counter to certain boons, or eat the damage and heal back up because retaliation is not going to kill you....

And to complain about retaliation in WvW...how are you doing less damage to someone per hit than retaliation? Are you spamming auto attacks on a full soldier build?

[Safandula.8723]

@saerni.2584 said:So NPCs that have a boon based period where attacking them hurts you is bad now?

What?

Wait a few seconds if you build doesn’t have a counter to certain boons, or eat the damage and heal back up because retaliation is not going to kill you....

u propably skipped the part about waiting. its never good, replace retal with other engagin mechanics, theres a lot of them. put some fast hitting skill on top of boss, and yea u can easilly die.

And to complain about retaliation in WvW...how are you doing less damage to someone per hit than retaliation? Are you spamming auto attacks on a full soldier build?

do you know how retaliation works with fast attacking weapons? daggers, ele scepter... theres more of it.are u new to the game? u got 4 stars so u shouldnt be, u talk like one tho

[ArchonWing.9480]

If you die to retaliation in a zerg, I can understand. You need to pop sustain things before bursting.

If you die to a few players because of retaliation, I have no idea what the heck you're running, but it's wrong.

If you lose to minstrel fb, lol

[Safandula.8723]

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its literally the only thing in the game that makes players think about fights, use hybrid builds, or require a support. If we had more mechanics like Retaliation you'd hear alot less people going "omg we don't need a healer gtfo".

At least these kinds of mentalities are rarer than they used to be because ArenaNet has made huge strides to making combat about more than "super max zerker dodge dodge 111121", and the game's certainly been better for it.

its just a shame it took so many years for people to realise that having 1/3rd of the trinity doesn't make a game.

[Safandula.8723]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Its literally the only thing in the game that makes players think about fights, use hybrid builds, or require a support. If we had more mechanics like Retaliation you'd hear alot less people going "omg we don't need a healer gtfo".

At least these kinds of mentalities are rarer than they used to be because ArenaNet has made huge strides to making combat about more than "super max zerker dodge dodge 111121", and the game's certainly been better for it.

its just a shame it took so many years for people to realise that having 1/3rd of the trinity doesn't make a game.

what about forcing party to take healer, with decent mechanics, that are hard or maybe impossible to avoid, instead of passive retal. Do you see a diffrence?

[T G.7496]

On the condi side, torment and confusion are even more stupid. In an active combat system, punishing players for moving and using any of their skills is just retarded.

[Zephire.8049]

Retal in the open world definitely needs a rework, especially given how common it is now. In raids, PvP, and WvW it provides strategy and rewards people who track their opponent's buff bar. In the open world it punishes players for not running boon-strip, having a cleave attack, and/or not running with a healer. "Just wait for it to drop off" doesn't help if enemies move in groups of 3-5+ and you have no single-target attack—the UI doesn't allow for tracking multiple enemy buff bars at the same time and with retal being staggered means your window to not be hit by it is rare.

There's also the issue of boon-strip and how it's not equal among all professions and some professions have it on a longer cooldown than others. When you can only strip retal once every 45-120 seconds but the mob reapplies it every 5-15, it ceases to be useful.

When doing group content it's easier to plan around boon-strip and healing and have dedicated people in those roles. In the open world you should be able to reasonably assume that you can manage on your own as long as you're fighting regular mobs and have decent gear. Getting insta-downed because 5 mobs popped retal during your cast time is not fun or good game design as there's zero counter-play for situations like that.

[MrForz.1953]

Ah, I would be fine with the boon rip/corrupt solution against retal if it was accessible to everyone without severly hampering one's capabilities, I'm not sure I want to carry a landmine just to get rid of retaliation, retaliation that might be reapplied before my landmine gets off cooldown. Some classes don't exactly play the boon game naturally.

[saerni.2584]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@saerni.2584 said:So NPCs that have a boon based period where attacking them hurts you is bad now?

What?

Wait a few seconds if you build doesn’t have a counter to certain boons, or eat the damage and heal back up because retaliation is not going to kill you....

u propably skipped the part about waiting. its never good, replace retal with other engagin mechanics, theres a lot of them. put some fast hitting skill on top of boss, and yea u can easilly die.

And to complain about retaliation in WvW...how are you doing less damage to someone per hit than retaliation? Are you spamming auto attacks on a full soldier build?

do you know how retaliation works with fast attacking weapons? daggers, ele scepter... theres more of it.are u new to the game? u got 4 stars so u shouldnt be, u talk like one tho

How can you not shealth your weapons or watch your target’s boons?

Like...it’s part of the game?

[Safandula.8723]

@Zephire.8049 said:Retal in the open world definitely needs a rework, especially given how common it is now. In raids, PvP, and WvW it provides strategy and rewards people who track their opponent's buff bar.

Not sure about pvp, but in wvw, if u see group of +5 ppl, u can be almost sure, they have fb, and becouse of that, they have almost perma retal, theres no need to track anything

@saerni.2584 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@saerni.2584 said:So NPCs that have a boon based period where attacking them hurts you is bad now?

What?

Wait a few seconds if you build doesn’t have a counter to certain boons, or eat the damage and heal back up because retaliation is not going to kill you....

u propably skipped the part about waiting. its never good, replace retal with other engagin mechanics, theres a lot of them. put some fast hitting skill on top of boss, and yea u can easilly die.

And to complain about retaliation in WvW...how are you doing less damage to someone per hit than retaliation? Are you spamming auto attacks on a full soldier build?

do you know how retaliation works with fast attacking weapons? daggers, ele scepter... theres more of it.are u new to the game? u got 4 stars so u shouldnt be, u talk like one tho

How can you not shealth your weapons or watch your target’s boons?

Like...it’s part of the game?if u mean when i chased this fb, than yea i stowed weapon, while i took 10-15 % of his hp, i lost around 30% and almost died. amazing. and as said above, if ur facing guardian, u dont need to track anything, u can be sure retal is thereif u mean open world... try to play fresh air tempest, put air overload on enemy pack, than even after stowing weapon and using healing skill u may go down. dh with placed trap and no heal skill will most likely go down as well. i guess there are few more examples (1 is in video posted above, u think its good design?)

[saerni.2584]

You attacked into a sea of red and died. Not really surprised.

[Safandula.8723]

wasnt me. ye im also not suprised u can die in 1 sec, if noone is attacking you

[Josh.4132]

What makes me laugh is that some people here are talking like retaliation is a skill or tactic used actively to punish enemy players that attack you. This is Bull. Its a boon, which is often granted passively through traits and often requires zero input by the player. Telling someone to wait until the boon goes away is not counter play, its not like the guardian is also just gonna wait so you can take turns hitting each other lol. Waiting is not an option when guardians also have bursty damage and when there are builds which are passively pooping out this one boon, not to mention the amount of aegis, blocks and blinds that some of these builds also have whilst still being able to go full offensive. Anyone that thinks retaliation is ok should go play staff ele in a blob, use meteor shower + Lava font and count the seconds it takes for you to die from a boon... Is the ele supposed to just wait for the fb heavy blob to not have retaliation before it should start attacking? because I can assure you, that retaliation is going nowhere in any part of that fight.