58K DPS Guardian PVP Build

Demonoid.1974 · October 2, 2020

Hi, I play ranked and unranked (NA) lots, and I don't ever see this build being used. The other guardian builds on metabattle are pretty different.
First you have to understand the trait Permeating Wrath: 1,388 area burn every 3rd strike.Situation: 5 targets (which can include pets, other AI) 4 different symbols (2 from traits), 6 seconds.This equals 24 strikes total against 5 targets, equating to 120 strikes over 6 seconds.This triggers Permeating Wrath 40 times.That's 55,520 burn damage per target.So, 277,600 burn damage over 6 seconds,averaging out at 46K damage per second.6 seconds is too long. Reply: more of the damage is frontloaded in the first 3 seconds due to varying symbol durations.5 targets, 4 symbols, 3 seconds = 15 strikes triggering Permeating Wrath 25 times.34,700 burn damage per target per 3 seconds.173,500 burn damage in 3 seconds,equating to 58K DPS for 3 seconds.That number is from symbols alone.Of course, the exact numbers always vary up or down due to the numbers of targets in the symbols which can be impacted by things like your own personal timing and placement, nearby downstate status, the size of a capture objective, and the ability of the enemy.That's offense. What about defense? It has what standard burn guard doesn't. That is, plenty of damage mitigation sources, relatively high boon upkeep paired with sound healing from multiple sources and cleanses for everyone to make it pretty great on every front (mobility, dueling, team fighting). Higher damage and higher healing, what's not to like? Cheers (feel free to add to or correct me on any of this). The counter seems to be prolonged exposure to both wide open areas and Holosmiths at the same time, but since PvP is loaded with good spots for kiting and breaking line of sight you can minimize this to nonexistent.gw2skills.net/editor/?PWABs6x3lFw+YZMM2IO+TrrMA-z5YXGZmC9WByPA

Dantheman.3589 · October 2, 2020

There is zero reason to play core symbols without meditation spam, so ppl will be better off with a sage firebrand. Also there’s zero reason to play sage/burning + symbols as this damage is less efficient than power and will have a lot less sustain.

Ppl don’t play this cuz it’s not good simple.

Dawdler.8521 · October 2, 2020

Then go into sPvP and instantly die to a ranger pet.

Buran.3796 · October 2, 2020

I think that Radiance (2,2,1) is better than Zeal in that build. Symbols are a bit weird in this game because albeit the main traitline seems to be Zeal, which has most of the traits related to symbols the strongest symbol trait is located on Honor (Writ of Persistence), which increases both in duration and area the effect of the symbols. Zeal also is more devoted to physical damage, whereas the strongest buff for the damage of symbols comes from having Permeating Wrath from Virtues in a build centered around the proc of burns and the use of condition damage. Both Zealot's Speed and Protector Restoration have very limited use, specially since you can drop Zealot's Speed randomly at nowhere while being poked at range.

So, in the end, pure condi builds using either carrion or rabid amulet work better in PvP (trailblazers in WvW) with the concept of planting a symbol to area proc burns. Symbols buffs are also a bit tedious being so sparced amongs traitlines, specially due despite the core Guardian has theoretically the best chances to fulfill their potential, I found that playing both symbol-based Dragon Hunters and Firebrands provide better results on the ground. I do play those variants a lot but still didn't found a build which combines in the same way sustain and damage in the same way as condi Herald, albeit the burn Guardian variants are usually more bursty.

Bazsi.2734 · October 3, 2020

Math is wonderful. If only those pesky players wouldn't scatter, dodge or cleanse the damage! And they just stomp you a few seconds later like they have no respect for science.

Caedmon.6798 · October 3, 2020

Wow on a target thats standing still and not using boons ?!?!? AMAZZZZZIIIIINGGGG!!!!!

Dantheman.3589 · October 3, 2020

@Buran.3796 said:I think that Radiance (2,2,1) is better than Zeal in that build. Symbols are a bit weird in this game because albeit the main traitline seems to be Zeal, which has most of the traits related to symbols the strongest symbol trait is located on Honor (Writ of Persistence), which increases both in duration and area the effect of the symbols. Zeal also is more devoted to physical damage, whereas the strongest buff for the damage of symbols comes from having Permeating Wrath from Virtues in a build centered around the proc of burns and the use of condition damage. Both Zealot's Speed and Protector Restoration have very limited use, specially since you can drop Zealot's Speed randomly at nowhere while being poked at range.
So, in the end, pure condi builds using either carrion or rabid amulet work better in PvP (trailblazers in WvW) with the concept of planting a symbol to area proc burns. Symbols buffs are also a bit tedious being so sparced amongs traitlines, specially due despite the core Guardian has theoretically the best chances to fulfill their potential, I found that playing both symbol-based Dragon Hunters and Firebrands provide better results on the ground. I do play those variants a lot but still didn't found a build which combines in the same way sustain and damage in the same way as condi Herald, albeit the burn Guardian variants are usually more bursty.

Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

Buran.3796 · October 3, 2020

@"Dantheman.3589" said:
Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

By "meta specs" you maybe referring to the PvE "optimal builds" which people are running in raids and fractals? Those ones with Guardians with 12K HP playing against punching bag NPCs with dismal A.I. and entirely predictable patterns? Those builds don't work in PvP. Symbolbran uses mender: low crit chance with 0 ferocity: mediocre dps. It's role is mainly support/tank (and they aren't even the best at that, currently), with most of the traits and skills devoted to make the healings from aegis and pulses to work (which barely do after all the nerfs).

On the other hand, if you run Honor 1,3,2, and Virtues 1,2,1 replacing Zeal and wielding carrion you get better burst than physical based symbol Guardians: despite the lower physical damage you'll proc burns like crazy, and cleans doesn't matter that much since you're constantly re-aplying the burns. Works better with core and DH, of course: Firebrand braces too many things for his own good.

Dantheman.3589 · October 3, 2020

@Buran.3796 said:
@"Dantheman.3589" said:
Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

By "meta specs" you maybe referring to the PvE "optimal builds" which people are running in raids and fractals? Those ones with Guardians with 12K HP playing against punching bag NPCs with dismal A.I. and entirely predictable patterns? Those builds don't work in PvP. Symbolbran uses mender: low crit chance with 0 ferocity: mediocre dps. It's role is mainly support/tank (and they aren't even the best at that, currently), with most of the traits and skills devoted to make the healings from aegis and pulses to work (which barely do after all the nerfs).

On the other hand, if you run Honor 1,3,2, and Virtues 1,2,1 replacing Zeal and wielding carrion you get better burst than physical based symbol Guardians: despite the lower physical damage you'll proc burns like crazy, and cleans doesn't matter that much since you're constantly re-aplying the burns. Works better with core and DH, of course: Firebrand braces too many things for his own good.

So your meme build is better than core symbol guard, which is probably by far the best side noder for ranked?

ollbirtan.2915 · October 3, 2020

@Dantheman.3589 said:
@Buran.3796 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

By "meta specs" you maybe referring to the PvE "optimal builds" which people are running in raids and fractals? Those ones with Guardians with 12K HP playing against punching bag NPCs with dismal A.I. and entirely predictable patterns? Those builds don't work in PvP. Symbolbran uses mender: low crit chance with 0 ferocity: mediocre dps. It's role is mainly support/tank (and they aren't even the best at that, currently), with most of the traits and skills devoted to make the healings from aegis and pulses to work (which barely do after all the nerfs).

On the other hand, if you run Honor 1,3,2, and Virtues 1,2,1 replacing Zeal and wielding carrion you get better burst than physical based symbol Guardians: despite the lower physical damage you'll proc burns like crazy, and cleans doesn't matter that much since you're constantly re-aplying the burns. Works better with core and DH, of course: Firebrand braces too many things for his own good.

So your meme build is better than core symbol guard, which is probably by far the best side noder for ranked?

FYI the meta symbol guard build you are talking about uses Sage amulet, and is, SURPRISE, a hybrid relying on burn procs from symbols and shattered aegis, retal, and a bit of power damage in between.

setdog.1592 · October 3, 2020

i suppose it could work if the 5 enemies were standing within 240 radius, and not attacking you so you would live long for this to happen.

Mega.5791 · October 3, 2020

@ollbirtan.2915 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
@Buran.3796 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

By "meta specs" you maybe referring to the PvE "optimal builds" which people are running in raids and fractals? Those ones with Guardians with 12K HP playing against punching bag NPCs with dismal A.I. and entirely predictable patterns? Those builds don't work in PvP. Symbolbran uses mender: low crit chance with 0 ferocity: mediocre dps. It's role is mainly support/tank (and they aren't even the best at that, currently), with most of the traits and skills devoted to make the healings from aegis and pulses to work (which barely do after all the nerfs).

On the other hand, if you run Honor 1,3,2, and Virtues 1,2,1 replacing Zeal and wielding carrion you get better burst than physical based symbol Guardians: despite the lower physical damage you'll proc burns like crazy, and cleans doesn't matter that much since you're constantly re-aplying the burns. Works better with core and DH, of course: Firebrand braces too many things for his own good.

So your meme build is better than core symbol guard, which is probably by far the best side noder for ranked?

FYI the meta symbol guard build you are talking about uses Sage amulet, and is, SURPRISE, a hybrid relying on burn procs from symbols and shattered aegis, retal, and a bit of power damage in between.

Most people I encounter use mender's amulet though. I suppose burn procs don't do enough without cover conditions at some level and the additional sustain makes more than up for it.

€: On topic, there are many many builds able to do much more damage in these cases. It is simply unrealistic.

ollbirtan.2915 · October 3, 2020

@Megametzler.5729 said:
@ollbirtan.2915 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
@Buran.3796 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

By "meta specs" you maybe referring to the PvE "optimal builds" which people are running in raids and fractals? Those ones with Guardians with 12K HP playing against punching bag NPCs with dismal A.I. and entirely predictable patterns? Those builds don't work in PvP. Symbolbran uses mender: low crit chance with 0 ferocity: mediocre dps. It's role is mainly support/tank (and they aren't even the best at that, currently), with most of the traits and skills devoted to make the healings from aegis and pulses to work (which barely do after all the nerfs).

On the other hand, if you run Honor 1,3,2, and Virtues 1,2,1 replacing Zeal and wielding carrion you get better burst than physical based symbol Guardians: despite the lower physical damage you'll proc burns like crazy, and cleans doesn't matter that much since you're constantly re-aplying the burns. Works better with core and DH, of course: Firebrand braces too many things for his own good.

So your meme build is better than core symbol guard, which is probably by far the best side noder for ranked?

FYI the meta symbol guard build you are talking about uses Sage amulet, and is, SURPRISE, a hybrid relying on burn procs from symbols and shattered aegis, retal, and a bit of power damage in between.

Most people I encounter use mender's amulet though. I suppose burn procs don't do enough without cover conditions at some level and the additional sustain makes more than up for it.

€: On topic, there are many many builds able to do much more damage in these cases. It is simply unrealistic.

Mender's amulet doesn't dish out more damage. It's a little bit more tankier, but Sage is still better. Hybrid is the only way for guardian right now. Also, the role of symbol core guard is mostly side noder, which it performs quite well up until plat 1 ~2.More on the topic of OP's build --- suggest to swap traits around, because your current version isn't really good at anything._Edit_As someone already mentioned, you really need Valor line to be able to function.

Mega.5791 · October 3, 2020

@ollbirtan.2915 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@ollbirtan.2915 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
@Buran.3796 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

By "meta specs" you maybe referring to the PvE "optimal builds" which people are running in raids and fractals? Those ones with Guardians with 12K HP playing against punching bag NPCs with dismal A.I. and entirely predictable patterns? Those builds don't work in PvP. Symbolbran uses mender: low crit chance with 0 ferocity: mediocre dps. It's role is mainly support/tank (and they aren't even the best at that, currently), with most of the traits and skills devoted to make the healings from aegis and pulses to work (which barely do after all the nerfs).

On the other hand, if you run Honor 1,3,2, and Virtues 1,2,1 replacing Zeal and wielding carrion you get better burst than physical based symbol Guardians: despite the lower physical damage you'll proc burns like crazy, and cleans doesn't matter that much since you're constantly re-aplying the burns. Works better with core and DH, of course: Firebrand braces too many things for his own good.

So your meme build is better than core symbol guard, which is probably by far the best side noder for ranked?

FYI the meta symbol guard build you are talking about uses Sage amulet, and is, SURPRISE, a hybrid relying on burn procs from symbols and shattered aegis, retal, and a bit of power damage in between.

Most people I encounter use mender's amulet though. I suppose burn procs don't do enough without cover conditions at some level and the additional sustain makes more than up for it.

€: On topic, there are many many builds able to do much more damage in these cases. It is simply unrealistic.

Mender's amulet doesn't dish out more damage. It's a little bit more tankier, but Sage is still better. Hybrid is the only way for guardian right now. Also, the role of symbol core guard is mostly side noder, which it performs quite well up until plat 1 ~2. > (...)

No no, mender's does not dish out more damage. But when those single stacks of burn do get cleansed quickly? Then it actually might. The main advantage, as you say, is significantly more sustain of course.

I guess it is dependant on the compositions, if you might get +1ed more often, if you might have to get into team fights, which enemies you have on sides and stuff. Both seem to be viable up to average plat though in my experience (my statistics about seeing more mender's is surely not empirically relevant, I admit).

Buran.3796 · October 3, 2020

@"Dantheman.3589" said:
So your meme build is better than core symbol guard, which is probably by far the best side noder for ranked?

Both Ele and Holo have currently better builds at PvP than anything that Guardian provides. And don't play strawman arguments with me: what I said is that symbols provide more damage with hybrid and conditions builds that with ones based in physical damage, and is true.

In fact, I spent yesterday/today some hours testing it in PvP, I recorded it and made some fancy charts, those are the results:

TEST: Collect data of damage from symbols using a core guardian with a condition damage oriented build and a physical damage oriented build. with a variety of PvP amulets. Involves the use of a single mace attack (Symbol of Faith) against the heavy armored golem dummy in the PvP hub.

Condition damage oriented build:

Radiance 2,2,1
Virtues 1,2,1
Honor 1,3,2

Physical damage oriented build:

Zeal 2,1,3
Virtues 1,2,1
Honor 1,3,2
In Zeal Fiery Wrath is selected over Wrathful Spirit due the later won't provide any advantage in this passive test. The test measures the time the symbols take to kill the golem, the amount of HP % it erodes from the target after the exposition to the complete duration of a single symbol, the largest base tick damage and crit damage from physical pulses from the symbol, the larger damage figures stacked by burns procced by the Virtue of Justice passive effect, the max amount of stacks of burns and vulnerability those build/amulet combos provide and how many mace #2 attacks in a row we need to kill our friendly golem. Notice that the Zeal build gradually increases the initial physical damage once some stacks of vulnerability are applied (I only put the largest numbers). Notice also that this doesn't take in consideration extra damage sources as physical burst damage from skills as sword #3, greatsword #2, etc. ...Which are irrelevant to the subject of this test.
So, the main question: Is damage from symbols in condition and hybrid builds competitive vs the damage from symbols in builds specced to physical damage? The answer is a simple: YES. Some points:
Mender is by far the weakest damage dealer, which isn't a surprise since their users do focuse in support and supervivence, not dps.
The condition builds using Radiance do more damage and kill faster with symbols than even pure dps builds focused around Zeal using berserker and destroyer amulets.
Vulnerability stacks really doesn't compare vs burn stacks and burn proccing. Notice that I didn't use Balthazar runes in the test (just Traveller every time) and neither Smoldering sigil. An yes, conditions can be cleansed (and even transfered), but with Amplified Wrath I frankly don't care about how much cleanses the enemy team has: after them I still have more burn procs to share...
Carrion beats even berserker and destroyer, with have 0 vitality and are virtually suicidal/yolo to wield in PvP. I guess that destroyer and griever with the Radiant build will be even stronger than carrion, but sadly a symbol Guardian can't play with those and 12K HP. Carrion offers a good value in terms of dps + sustain, only ballasted by the weak healings that currently all the Guardian (core, DH, Firebrand) has available.
With Zeal (lacking Amplified Wrath) carrion's burn damage is halved and the physical damage is enhanced ~50% but overall doesn't worth the change. But things are way worse for Mender, which drops the burn damage to barely 1/3 while gaining the same ~50% physical damage.

https://imgur.com/DYz60GW

Dantheman.3589 · October 3, 2020

@ollbirtan.2915 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
@Buran.3796 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

By "meta specs" you maybe referring to the PvE "optimal builds" which people are running in raids and fractals? Those ones with Guardians with 12K HP playing against punching bag NPCs with dismal A.I. and entirely predictable patterns? Those builds don't work in PvP. Symbolbran uses mender: low crit chance with 0 ferocity: mediocre dps. It's role is mainly support/tank (and they aren't even the best at that, currently), with most of the traits and skills devoted to make the healings from aegis and pulses to work (which barely do after all the nerfs).

On the other hand, if you run Honor 1,3,2, and Virtues 1,2,1 replacing Zeal and wielding carrion you get better burst than physical based symbol Guardians: despite the lower physical damage you'll proc burns like crazy, and cleans doesn't matter that much since you're constantly re-aplying the burns. Works better with core and DH, of course: Firebrand braces too many things for his own good.

So your meme build is better than core symbol guard, which is probably by far the best side noder for ranked?

FYI the meta symbol guard build you are talking about uses Sage amulet, and is, SURPRISE, a hybrid relying on burn procs from symbols and shattered aegis, retal, and a bit of power damage in between.

Yeah no sages is already proven as a meme and no one is fooled since menders has been the way to play symbols since core.> @Megametzler.5729 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
@Buran.3796 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

By "meta specs" you maybe referring to the PvE "optimal builds" which people are running in raids and fractals? Those ones with Guardians with 12K HP playing against punching bag NPCs with dismal A.I. and entirely predictable patterns? Those builds don't work in PvP. Symbolbran uses mender: low crit chance with 0 ferocity: mediocre dps. It's role is mainly support/tank (and they aren't even the best at that, currently), with most of the traits and skills devoted to make the healings from aegis and pulses to work (which barely do after all the nerfs).

On the other hand, if you run Honor 1,3,2, and Virtues 1,2,1 replacing Zeal and wielding carrion you get better burst than physical based symbol Guardians: despite the lower physical damage you'll proc burns like crazy, and cleans doesn't matter that much since you're constantly re-aplying the burns. Works better with core and DH, of course: Firebrand braces too many things for his own good.

So your meme build is better than core symbol guard, which is probably by far the best side noder for ranked?

FYI the meta symbol guard build you are talking about uses Sage amulet, and is, SURPRISE, a hybrid relying on burn procs from symbols and shattered aegis, retal, and a bit of power damage in between.

Most people I encounter use mender's amulet though. I suppose burn procs don't do enough without cover conditions at some level and the additional sustain makes more than up for it.

€: On topic, there are many many builds able to do much more damage in these cases. It is simply unrealistic.

Most ppl do play menders, becuz it is and has been the meta.> @ollbirtan.2915 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:
@ollbirtan.2915 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
@Buran.3796 said:
@Dantheman.3589 said:
Are u insane symbols are basically pure power damage. + 40% damage btw with insane vuln uptime. Anyone claiming condi does good on symbol must be memeing becuz it’s not, it’s a garbage teir concept and it does nothing but garbage if u wanna compare it to meta specs.

By "meta specs" you maybe referring to the PvE "optimal builds" which people are running in raids and fractals? Those ones with Guardians with 12K HP playing against punching bag NPCs with dismal A.I. and entirely predictable patterns? Those builds don't work in PvP. Symbolbran uses mender: low crit chance with 0 ferocity: mediocre dps. It's role is mainly support/tank (and they aren't even the best at that, currently), with most of the traits and skills devoted to make the healings from aegis and pulses to work (which barely do after all the nerfs).

On the other hand, if you run Honor 1,3,2, and Virtues 1,2,1 replacing Zeal and wielding carrion you get better burst than physical based symbol Guardians: despite the lower physical damage you'll proc burns like crazy, and cleans doesn't matter that much since you're constantly re-aplying the burns. Works better with core and DH, of course: Firebrand braces too many things for his own good.

So your meme build is better than core symbol guard, which is probably by far the best side noder for ranked?

FYI the meta symbol guard build you are talking about uses Sage amulet, and is, SURPRISE, a hybrid relying on burn procs from symbols and shattered aegis, retal, and a bit of power damage in between.

Most people I encounter use mender's amulet though. I suppose burn procs don't do enough without cover conditions at some level and the additional sustain makes more than up for it.

€: On topic, there are many many builds able to do much more damage in these cases. It is simply unrealistic.

Mender's amulet doesn't dish out more damage. It's a little bit more tankier, but Sage is still better. Hybrid is the only way for guardian right now. Also, the role of symbol core guard is mostly side noder, which it performs quite well up until plat 1 ~2.More on the topic of OP's build --- suggest to swap traits around, because your current version isn't really good at anything._Edit_As someone already mentioned, you really need Valor line to be able to function.

Sage is absolutely Garbo and non-viable as I stated before. Menders core guard has been probably the most dominant side noder in ranked for months. I find it embarrassing that you are pointing out your meme build as good for plat1-2 omegalul > @Megametzler.5729 said: