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Re-examine the sentry and tower marked debuff.

SteepledHat.1345

By SteepledHat.1345
in World vs. World

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Shroud.2307

Shroud.2307

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:Can we have watchtower and the revealed/mark debuff affect something from every classes trait/mechanic and call it a day? :)

Alright, that means Thief doesn't get to use Steal while Marked then. Because that's their class mechanic, not Stealth.

Cool, that means necro can't use shroud xd

So Scourge then

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saerni.2584

saerni.2584

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I'm not a huge fan of Marked just because it tends to be used as a "counter" to stealth that is both inadequate and heavy handed at the same time.

As people have pointed out, Marked is heavy handed because thief relies on stealth for defensive repositioning and set up stealth attacks, which are often a primary form of doing damage because initiative needs to be saved for (ever more) expensive weapon skills for utility purposes. And other classes have longer duration stealth abilities that get neutered by the extremely short duration of the "allowable" stealth duration under Marked.

Marked is also inadequate. That's because Marked doesn't stop players from entering stealth, so there's a false sense of security some players have around a sentry. Then they meet me or some other player who uses stealth and is perfectly aware of the fact they are Marked and doesn't care. Marked in this sense lures people into a false sense of complacency where they feel they like they don't have to try very hard because "stealth is a crutch and I'll win easily if they can't permastealth."

My personal opinion about Marked is that Towers that are contested with the Watchtower should track players nearby. I don't think this should apply the Marked debuff. Anti-stealth duration is a powerful and active effect which should be limited to tactics like banners or "chilling fog" style effects for players to actively use. So I'd put it on a banner and force a player to use the skill to maintain the effect. We could also put it onto "Chilling Fog" and make the AoE of that effect bigger, just as a thought.

I also think sentries should be upgraded to have more HP like camp supervisors. Sentries should also be given unique skills and one of those should be a reveal or short duration "Marked" application on target or AoE. But, it should be possible to avoid the Marked effect from Sentries. Think of it like the sentry calling for aid but before he can send out the SOS it is possible to stop him.

I could say more but this is a thread for Marked and not wvw improvements so I'll leave it there.

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Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

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@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

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Jilora.9524

Jilora.9524

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Yeah, my post was regarding the post I quoted, about gw2 players complaining about thief and how they have it easy compared to rogue likes in other mmo's which are usually paired with even stronger mechanics. I also agree with the OP about sentey's needing a review for today's version of gw2 wvw. They also need to review the stealth debuff duration as it's far to low.

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Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Well, point is this debuff locks out the class out of their main mechanic. People justify it with thief having supposedly too much stealth and bring in other games (which is stupid at best, imo).I personally would love if just for 1 day mesmers would be locked out of clones, guards out of heals/blocks, necros out of life force etc. by this this debuff in WvW. Maybe then people would understand the issue. Once again, the community should really blame themselves for having so many thieves ruining their roaming experience - you guys are the one who kick thieves from zergs thus forcing them into roaming solo existence. Some thieves switched to something zerg friendly, other perfected their roaming builds and skills. There are plenty of classes and builds that can easily deal with builds BUT most people don't run them because they prefer to zerg. And then they complain about thieves. Find the error here.

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Well, point is this debuff locks out the class out of their main mechanic. People justify it with thief having supposedly too much stealth and bring in other games (which is stupid at best, imo).I personally would love if just for 1 day mesmers would be locked out of clones, guards out of heals/blocks, necros out of life force etc. by this this debuff in WvW. Maybe then people would understand the issue. Once again, the community should really blame themselves for having so many thieves ruining their roaming experience - you guys are the one who kick thieves from zergs thus forcing them into roaming solo existence. Some thieves switched to something zerg friendly, other perfected their roaming builds and skills. There are plenty of classes and builds that can easily deal with builds BUT most people don't run them because they prefer to zerg. And then they complain about thieves. Find the error here.

Again this 100%

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Jilora.9524

Jilora.9524

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Yeah, my post was regarding the post I quoted, about gw2 players complaining about thief and how they have it easy compared to rogue likes in other mmo's which are usually paired with even stronger mechanics. I also agree with the OP about sentey's needing a review for today's version of gw2 wvw. They also need to review the stealth debuff duration as it's far to low.

Yeah I don't think players complain constant about thieves in pvp like we do in WvW. I think it's more you can bring a pure pvp single target build from PvP w less limitations to WvW and wreck players who aren't specced to pvp and more team orientated so you get the one shot no chance for that player in wvw but we don't see that in PvP so we qq. Idk about wow I quit at 80 w/e expac that was but eso everyone could stealth and Every class also had a real way of combating stealth not like the 8 reveals total and I only get it if i'm core necro not reaper or scourge. I don't think gw2 has it easy vs those. I do think thief is never balanced well in any game and you thieves think one - shot or a fast kill before reaction is just normal and fun gameplay and that's more the issue. The expectations of you players that gravitate towards thief.

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Jilora.9524

Jilora.9524

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Well, point is this debuff locks out the class out of their main mechanic. People justify it with thief having supposedly too much stealth and bring in other games (which is stupid at best, imo).I personally would love if just for 1 day mesmers would be locked out of clones, guards out of heals/blocks, necros out of life force etc. by this this debuff in WvW. Maybe then people would understand the issue. Once again, the community should really blame themselves for having so many thieves ruining their roaming experience - you guys are the one who kick thieves from zergs thus forcing them into roaming solo existence. Some thieves switched to something zerg friendly, other perfected their roaming builds and skills. There are plenty of classes and builds that can easily deal with builds BUT most people don't run them because they prefer to zerg. And then they complain about thieves. Find the error here.

Again my same argument with cad it is just sentrys and the rare watchtower. It's so you thieves can't run rampant thru the entire map. You know if nothing like this there would be even more thieves hiding right in spots to jump players out of stealth right next to towers or hiding behind the arch in the camp south of bay or right before smc on enemy side for any single heading that way because there would be nothing at all to prevent it and yeah no one wants to run core necro just in case a thief shows up. There are not plenty of ways. It's not an error. It's wvw that you play as pvp 1 v 1. You thieves play it wrong not most of the players but anet doesn't give you a choice really

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Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Well, point is this debuff locks out the class out of their main mechanic. People justify it with thief having supposedly too much stealth and bring in other games (which is stupid at best, imo).I personally would love if just for 1 day mesmers would be locked out of clones, guards out of heals/blocks, necros out of life force etc. by this this debuff in WvW. Maybe then people would understand the issue. Once again, the community should really blame themselves for having so many thieves ruining their roaming experience - you guys are the one who kick thieves from zergs thus forcing them into roaming solo existence. Some thieves switched to something zerg friendly, other perfected their roaming builds and skills. There are plenty of classes and builds that can easily deal with builds BUT most people don't run them because they prefer to zerg. And then they complain about thieves. Find the error here.

Again my same argument with cad it is just sentrys and the rare watchtower. It's so you thieves can't run rampant thru the entire map. You know if nothing like this there would be even more thieves hiding right in spots to jump players out of stealth right next to towers or hiding behind the arch in the camp south of bay or right before smc on enemy side for any single heading that way because there would be nothing at all to prevent it and yeah no one wants to run core necro just in case a thief shows up. There are not plenty of ways. It's not an error. It's wvw that you play as pvp 1 v 1. You thieves play it wrong not most of the players but
anet doesn't give you a choice really

Well at least you realize it. Once again, i also stay by my point that community is also to blame. As long as thief has no spot in zerg they will 1v1 in wvw.

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Runiir.6425

Runiir.6425

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@whoknocks.4935 said:If in the current meta people die to thief, both dp and sd (1vs1) scenarios, it means you got outplayed, simple as that. And it is so funny to see rangers crying. People are annoyed by thief stealth, but they are okay with condi heralds who needs 5 people to take one down in the current matches?

Condi herald is not hard to rip down. Play a healer, literally ANY healer...you will grind them into the ground. I do it plenty on my plague doctor raid build heal scourge.Or are you another one of those people that hate the support builds too?

As for why you should care about the stealth given to DE rifle, thief has so many ways to gain vigor that giving a thief a free stealth on dodge is alone able to perma stealth them. I've done it, it is a boring playstyle to me...and very very easy to pick people off without any skill involved on the part of the thief.

Thieves in general need to have some serious and honest looks at them. IMO shortbow 5 needs to lose it's teleportation status and be changed into a charge mechanic eliminating the ability to move vertically entirely. That one change would make many of the ambushes impossible for the thief to escape from. SB5 also needs to be interuptible, you take damage during the arrow's flight your movement can be interupted. This would also put it in line with most other escape mechanics.

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Strider Pj.2193

Strider Pj.2193

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Well, point is this debuff locks out the class out of their main mechanic. People justify it with thief having supposedly too much stealth and bring in other games (which is stupid at best, imo).I personally would love if just for 1 day mesmers would be locked out of clones, guards out of heals/blocks, necros out of life force etc. by this this debuff in WvW. Maybe then people would understand the issue. Once again, the community should really blame themselves for having so many thieves ruining their roaming experience - you guys are the one who kick thieves from zergs thus forcing them into roaming solo existence. Some thieves switched to something zerg friendly, other perfected their roaming builds and skills. There are plenty of classes and builds that can easily deal with builds BUT most people don't run them because they prefer to zerg. And then they complain about thieves. Find the error here.

Again my same argument with cad it is just sentrys and the rare watchtower. It's so you thieves can't run rampant thru the entire map. You know if nothing like this there would be even more thieves hiding right in spots to jump players out of stealth right next to towers or hiding behind the arch in the camp south of bay or right before smc on enemy side for any single heading that way because there would be nothing at all to prevent it and yeah no one wants to run core necro just in case a thief shows up. There are not plenty of ways. It's not an error. It's wvw that you play as pvp 1 v 1. You thieves play it wrong not most of the players but
anet doesn't give you a choice really

Well at least you realize it. Once again, i also stay by my point that
community is also to blame
. As long as thief has no spot in zerg they will 1v1 in wvw.

There is no spot in the Zerg because of the design of the class. They don’t do anything well in group support or area damage that another class doesn’t clearly outshine them.

That’s not a community problem.

It’s because of the design.

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kash.9213

kash.9213

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Well, point is this debuff locks out the class out of their main mechanic. People justify it with thief having supposedly too much stealth and bring in other games (which is stupid at best, imo).I personally would love if just for 1 day mesmers would be locked out of clones, guards out of heals/blocks, necros out of life force etc. by this this debuff in WvW. Maybe then people would understand the issue. Once again, the community should really blame themselves for having so many thieves ruining their roaming experience - you guys are the one who kick thieves from zergs thus forcing them into roaming solo existence. Some thieves switched to something zerg friendly, other perfected their roaming builds and skills. There are plenty of classes and builds that can easily deal with builds BUT most people don't run them because they prefer to zerg. And then they complain about thieves. Find the error here.

Again my same argument with cad it is just sentrys and the rare watchtower. It's so you thieves can't run rampant thru the entire map. You know if nothing like this there would be even more thieves hiding right in spots to jump players out of stealth right next to towers or hiding behind the arch in the camp south of bay or right before smc on enemy side for any single heading that way because there would be nothing at all to prevent it and yeah no one wants to run core necro just in case a thief shows up. There are not plenty of ways. It's not an error. It's wvw that you play as pvp 1 v 1. You thieves play it wrong not most of the players but
anet doesn't give you a choice really

Well at least you realize it. Once again, i also stay by my point that
community is also to blame
. As long as thief has no spot in zerg they will 1v1 in wvw.

There is no spot in the Zerg because of the design of the class. They don’t do anything well in group support or area damage that another class doesn’t clearly outshine them.

That’s not a
community
problem.

It’s because of the design.

Thief is fine in zergs with just a few trait choices really but wont get a seat on the squad bus unless a tag sees them hustling and needs bodies to build up hype. Regardless how many times you save their core utility or how many times you're clutch at the end of they day they still see you as the same thing as that thief that got away from them a few times. I don't care and support groups and squads anyway but a lot of thieves keep hearing to change their class for another (tag needs some reason they got wiped again) then they'll just go do something where the crying is only on the other side. The community is to blame for a few things, like what kind of thief they keep facing that they make threads about.

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Shroud.2307

Shroud.2307

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Well, point is this debuff locks out the class out of their main mechanic. People justify it with thief having supposedly too much stealth and bring in other games (which is stupid at best, imo).I personally would love if just for 1 day mesmers would be locked out of clones, guards out of heals/blocks, necros out of life force etc. by this this debuff in WvW. Maybe then people would understand the issue. Once again, the community should really blame themselves for having so many thieves ruining their roaming experience - you guys are the one who kick thieves from zergs thus forcing them into roaming solo existence. Some thieves switched to something zerg friendly, other perfected their roaming builds and skills. There are plenty of classes and builds that can easily deal with builds BUT most people don't run them because they prefer to zerg. And then they complain about thieves. Find the error here.

You guys are so thick you don't understand that Stealth is not Thief's mechanic. It's Steal and Initiative. Stealth is a tool that Thief has an abundance of to compensate for its low base HP and low access to blocks and invulnerability. It isn't needed for a Thief to survive or to fight, it just improves their ability to do so. Marked also does not completely negate Stealth, it just limits the time you can be in it. There is enough time to land Stealth attacks while Marked so you really aren't locked out of anything.

All Marked does to Thieves in particular is force them to not Stealth stack/camp and wait to one shot spike people which is something no one enjoys experiencing. It does not prevent Thieves from using Stealth attacks and it does not completely disallow them from Stealthing all together, it just limits the time they can camp it.

If you want to compare Marked to how it effects Stealth you should be saying Marked does not allow Barrier because that is not a class specific mechanic but rather something two of them are dependent on and many others have access to. In this case however it would be a lot more harsh on a Scourge because they already lack mobility so this would literally take all form of defense from them.

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Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

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@Shroud.2307 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (
) and half of them are total garbage

I have played rogue in wow, also above 2200 rating in arena and rbgs. WoW rogues were miles stronger than thieves in GW2. Rogues in wow could stunlock you to death and had actual teleports that worked and not GW2 version of "hey let's use long Cds or entire ini just get no valid path message". On top of it they had absolute long lasting evades and condi immunity which thief could only dream about. I spent a lot of time jumping into whole mob of enemies (high rated at that), murder someone quickly and get away. Every time. Unthinkable in GW2 even with suicide thief. You guys really don't know how good you have it with thief in this game compared to WoW and some other games.

This 100%^I could only imagine the qq's if the thief in gw2 was designed similar to nightblade in eso, rogue in wow, ninja in bdo or dark runner in AAU lol. I donno something about gw2 attracts players that qq about everything that beats them a few times. There are no better players in gw2 just op builds so eventually every good build on every class gets gutted with 0 compensation leading to a game with all crappy dumbed down builds and playstyle and the few thst slip through the cracks that yr become fotm choice lol.

You do get that this thread was a QQ by a thief and agreed with mostly by other thieves who also are qq'ing about it right? Not to say gw2 players don't qq about thieves or everything in general.

Well, point is this debuff locks out the class out of their main mechanic. People justify it with thief having supposedly too much stealth and bring in other games (which is stupid at best, imo).I personally would love if just for 1 day mesmers would be locked out of clones, guards out of heals/blocks, necros out of life force etc. by this this debuff in WvW. Maybe then people would understand the issue. Once again, the community should really blame themselves for having so many thieves ruining their roaming experience - you guys are the one who kick thieves from zergs thus forcing them into roaming solo existence. Some thieves switched to something zerg friendly, other perfected their roaming builds and skills. There are plenty of classes and builds that can easily deal with builds BUT most people don't run them because they prefer to zerg. And then they complain about thieves. Find the error here.

You guys are so thick you don't understand that Stealth is not Thief's mechanic. It's Steal and Initiative. Stealth is a tool that Thief has an abundance of to compensate for its low base HP and low access to blocks and invulnerability. It isn't needed for a Thief to survive or to fight, it just improves their ability to do so. Marked also does not completely negate Stealth, it just limits the time you can be in it. There is enough time to land Stealth attacks while Marked so you really aren't locked out of anything.

All Marked does to Thieves in particular is force them to not Stealth stack/camp and wait to one shot spike people which is something no one enjoys experiencing. It does not prevent Thieves from using Stealth attacks and it does not completely disallow them from Stealthing all together, it just limits the time they can camp it.

If you want to compare Marked to how it effects Stealth you should be saying Marked does not allow Barrier because that is not a class specific mechanic but rather something two of them are dependent on and many others have access to. In this case however it would be a lot more harsh on a Scourge because they already lack mobility so this would literally take all form of defense from them.

Let's just ignore entire traitline, as well as stealth attacks like backstab and utilities and pretend stealth is not thief mechanic. Show me another class that has entire traitline and mechanics that are focused on stealth. What, none? Yeah. Thought so.

"Stealth is a tool that Thief has an abundance of to compensate for its low base HP and low access to blocks and invulnerability. It isn't needed for a Thief to survive or to fight, it just improves their ability to do so" - you just contradicted yourself withing 2 sentences. Did you even read what you wrote? So it is ok that thief has way lower chance to survive due to debuff but other classes don't suffer from it? Interesting.

Stealth attack is not only reason why you want stealth. As you stated yourself, thief does nearly no invulnerability or blocks. If i wanted to survive some hard hitting attack or combo on guard i would just use block or invul heal - i cannot do it on thief. I have to sit in stealth to mitigate that damage. Also, you forget that ini regen and health regen is also bound to stealth.

If you are so bothered by 1 shot thieves then stealth is not issue but rather between chair and monitor. I can do one shot on a lot of classes, just need to build for just as much as thief does. Really. Once again, you guys run zerg builds and complain that you die to thief builds built around solo roaming. That is like bringing pvp build to raid and complaining that you get kicked for doing nearly no damage.

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Mauzi.5892

Mauzi.5892

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@"KrHome.1920" said:Why do thieves think the mark/detected mechanic exists just to hassle them? It's a counter to any stealth abusing group of players in enemy territory. The game is full of party stealth sources and this mechanic is its counter.

With the difference that a Warrior with 3500 armor and 25k hp doesn't give a kitten about the debuff, whereas a squishy thief does, because his survivability mechanics are compromised.

Now I get and understand the "marked" debuff, even though it is annoying.The "revealed" debuff is what breaks thieves neck.Thieves should be immune to marked and revealed needs a lower duration (in wvw). At least outside of structures or flags. Inside it's fine, so you can't hide and portal in people.And if that's too much to change in their code, because of range detection or whatever, just make a different debuff for sentries,. that does basically the same as marked, but is called differently, so thieves can have immunity against that specific debuff. Call it "uncovered" or whatever.

Instead of defending their broken shadow arts traitline thieves could focus on asking for buffs of acrobatics.

Acro was fine until they made their stupid 300 second CDs.

And bringing that up because infiltrator's arrow costs 2 more initiative than before is ridiculous. Infiltrator's arrow was never meant to be a disengage tool that can be used 3 times in a row to cover 2700 range. And I do also doubt that is was some basis for thief balancing in the past.

Thief is balanced around disengaging. Through stealth and blinks. So yes.And you can't spam it 3 times unless you are just walking around.You use Sb5 to disengage from a fight. Which means you are usually low on initiative already and you can blink maybe once after swapping and another one after a few seconds. tops. And if so, you won the fight. Be happy.And you always have the choice to chase the thief. It's not like other classes are not mobile. Engi, Warrior, Revs, Ranger, even Eles and Guardians to some degree can chase or even outrun a thief.

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Shroud.2307

Shroud.2307

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@"Cynz.9437" said:Let's just ignore entire traitline, as well as stealth attacks like backstab and utilities and pretend stealth is not thief mechanic. Show me another class that has entire traitline and mechanics that are focused on stealth. What, none? Yeah. Thought so.

"Stealth is a tool that Thief has an abundance of to compensate for its low base HP and low access to blocks and invulnerability. It isn't needed for a Thief to survive or to fight, it just improves their ability to do so" - you just contradicted yourself withing 2 sentences. Did you even read what you wrote? So it is ok that thief has way lower chance to survive due to debuff but other classes don't suffer from it? Interesting.

Stealth attack is not only reason why you want stealth. As you stated yourself, thief does nearly no invulnerability or blocks. If i wanted to survive some hard hitting attack or combo on guard i would just use block or invul heal - i cannot do it on thief. I have to sit in stealth to mitigate that damage. Also, you forget that ini regen and health regen is also bound to stealth.

If you are so bothered by 1 shot thieves then stealth is not issue but rather between chair and monitor. I can do one shot on a lot of classes, just need to build for just as much as thief does. Really. Once again, you guys run zerg builds and complain that you die to thief builds built around solo roaming. That is like bringing pvp build to raid and complaining that you get kicked for doing nearly no damage.

Nope, it ain't. Engi, Mesmer, and Ranger have had access to Stealth for just as long as Thief. Crazy that Thief has so many mechanics though, almost like they have other ways to survive.

"Way lower" is not what I said. You are projecting.Yes it's okay, because it has the mobility to escape being Marked at a seconds' notice. Literally no one else is going to want to, or in most cases be able to, fight right in front of objective gates or while Marked for more than a few seconds because they'll get overwhelmed by +1's. Thief on the other hand can choose to leave when ever it pleases with few things that can stop it. Mobility and Stealth are things that make Thief a favored roaming class because it has the ability to choose when/where it wants to fight over the vast majority of things it will encounter. You may not camp Stealth and wait for the right time to engage while Marked, but you still have the option to disengage until you're out of Marked range.

All Marked does to Thieves is force them to play by the same rules as the rest of the classes- don't get Marked unless you have enough back up to deal with what responds to it.

Stealth does not mitigate damage or regenerate health. These are things that Shadow Arts provides, a tree heavily geared toward survival. It is not mandatory and is not the only thing that provides defensive options. It cushions your game play by allowing you to sit in Stealth when you've made a mistake or if you want to avoid a fight, the latter of which can be done with mobility.

I'm not bothered by Thieves at all. Most threads complaining about them I defend them and I'm probably one of the few who isn't bothered by Deadeye. Marked is a different story however because I'm sick of Thieves acting like it only effects them when it actually it effects everyone. No one wants to fight while Marked because it's too easy to get overwhelmed while you're visible on the map but Thief doesn't need to care about this. It has the mobility to get away if it needs to so it can overstay its welcome. You can ignore your surroundings and play like a complete ignoramus because you can just Stealth and run away if you got too greedy.

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