Thief Dead?

UNOwen.7132 · March 9, 2021

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Dadnir.5038 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Read what I said to Kachros.
Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

or refusal of thief mains to try anything other then un-killable builds, I honestly dont remember the last time there was any thief build that could die by anything other then massive missplays

The entire class is designed around being slippery. That's just what it is.

The thief is not a war. The thief is not a necro. The thief is not an engi. The thief does not have options to be able to function anything like those classes. The thief is a thief and all of his builds will always revolve around being slippery and hard to catch.

The thing that you need to be recognizing and giving credit for in this discussion though, is that for thief to have damage "outside of carrion pd builds" he has to go full glass cannon, and aside from what you seem to believe that "they are unkillable", when thieves mess up even once in higher tiered competition, they immediately die.

You should try playing a thief for awhile. It'll change your perspective of things.

I did play thief for a while, this is why I think its cheesy to begin with. Before I played it I deluded myself into thinking that they did something.

Yeah, Im gonna call doubt on that.

But reality is that they take 3x defensive traitlines, make a build that can legit maintain permanent stealth uptime, and complan that their damage is low.

Ah yes. Trickery is famously a defensive traitline, thanks to its 0 built-in defense tools. Its totally not a utility and damage traitline, despite that being what it does best, and genuinely the only reason you pick it. Daredevil is famously a defensive traitline, thats why you pick it for the damage it does, and not the defense its not great at. And even Shadow Arts is a utility/damage traitline. You can tell these are defensive traitlines by the fact that they replaced damage traitline once those had their damage nerfed.

Nothing stops the thief for going crit-strikes or condi for more damage, but they wont. Cuz then they can get punished when things go wrong and we cant have it.

Condi thief is a seperate build alltogether. Its also not very good. And yes, there is nothing stopping thief from going crit strike, besides it having no utility and on average LESS damage than any traitline it could replace. Yeah thats the funny thing. Crit Strikes usually ends up doing less damage. The currently chosen traitlines are the max damage traitlines you can reliably have. Thats why theyre picked. Thieves damage is low because its low, not because theyre picking the highest damage traitlines you mistakenly believe arent.

Thief players are the only ones asking for buffs due to skill being buggy.

No clue what this is referring to.

" BUFF sb5 back cuz it bugs once in a blue moon and then I can die " -> if you fail your get out of jail they kitten should die, same way I kitten die when my blink goes off in place im kitten. should I ask to get 2 charges for blink in case first buggs out? lol

Oh, that bug. Its less "once in a blue moon" and more "once or twice every match at least". Though there it should just be a bugfix.

TheBigPlay.7504 · March 13, 2021

buff teef plz the nerf to shortbow 5 was unnecessary

NorthernRedStar.3054 · March 13, 2021

@Yasai.3549 said:
@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:
Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability so considerably, why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

NorthernRedStar.3054 · March 13, 2021

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Dadnir.5038 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Read what I said to Kachros.
Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

or refusal of thief mains to try anything other then un-killable builds, I honestly dont remember the last time there was any thief build that could die by anything other then massive missplays

The entire class is designed around being slippery. That's just what it is.

The thief is not a war. The thief is not a necro. The thief is not an engi. The thief does not have options to be able to function anything like those classes. The thief is a thief and all of his builds will always revolve around being slippery and hard to catch.

The thing that you need to be recognizing and giving credit for in this discussion though, is that for thief to have damage "outside of carrion pd builds" he has to go full glass cannon, and aside from what you seem to believe that "they are unkillable", when thieves mess up even once in higher tiered competition, they immediately die.

You should try playing a thief for awhile. It'll change your perspective of things.

I did play thief for a while, this is why I think its cheesy to begin with. Before I played it I deluded myself into thinking that they did something.

Yeah, Im gonna call doubt on that.

But reality is that they take 3x defensive traitlines, make a build that can legit maintain permanent stealth uptime, and complan that their damage is low.

Ah yes. Trickery is famously a defensive traitline, thanks to its

0

built-in defense tools. Its totally not a utility and damage traitline, despite that being what it does best, and genuinely the only reason you pick it. Daredevil is famously a defensive traitline, thats why you pick it for the damage it does, and not the defense its not great at. And even Shadow Arts is a utility/damage traitline. You can tell these are defensive traitlines by the fact that they replaced damage traitline once those had their damage nerfed.

Nothing stops the thief for going crit-strikes or condi for more damage, but they wont. Cuz then they can get punished when things go wrong and we cant have it.

Condi thief is a seperate build alltogether. Its also not very good. And yes, there is nothing stopping thief from going crit strike, besides it having no utility and on average

LESS

damage than any traitline it could replace. Yeah thats the funny thing. Crit Strikes usually ends up doing less damage. The currently chosen traitlines are the max damage traitlines you can reliably have. Thats why theyre picked. Thieves damage is low because its low, not because theyre picking the highest damage traitlines you mistakenly believe arent.

Thief players are the only ones asking for buffs due to skill being buggy.

No clue what this is referring to.

" BUFF sb5 back cuz it bugs once in a blue moon and then I can die " -> if you fail your get out of jail they kitten should die, same way I kitten die when my blink goes off in place im kitten. should I ask to get 2 charges for blink in case first buggs out? lol

Oh, that bug. Its less "once in a blue moon" and more "once or twice every match at least". Though there it should just be a bugfix.

This. Crit strikes is great if you can unload a bunch of cheese damage on a bad player. Truth is, though, that Trickery and Shadow Arts on average grant you more damage in a fight ON TOP of superior utility and boon strip.

Also @Yasai.3549

All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Nice cherry picking. Bad argumentation trick.

Kuma.1503 · March 13, 2021

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
@Yasai.3549 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability

so considerably,

why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Yasai.3549 · March 13, 2021

@Kuma.1503 said:
I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Mesmer...... from 2 years ago.Lol.

Leonidrex.5649 · March 13, 2021

@Yasai.3549 said:
@Kuma.1503 said:
I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Mesmer...... from 2 years ago.Lol.

true, fb made mirage uninteractive.as it made mirage 100% useless with its proj block, resist and cleansing.If you had fb near you never had to interact with mirage as he was unable to do anything

NorthernRedStar.3054 · March 13, 2021

@Kuma.1503 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
@Yasai.3549 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability

so considerably,

why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select my subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

Yasai.3549 · March 13, 2021

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:
Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.
So, how do we go from here? Do I select my subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

Lol is it really brain game if yu simply run very well and disengage really well?That's not brain game, Weaver can do that easily.But even Weavers run out of cooldowns regardless if they rotate their skills properly or not.

Thief on the other hand can do this over and over without consequence because they are resource gated, not cooldown gated.And that's why people take issue with the entire Profession as a whole : Initiative system.

SB5 was specifically targeted for nerfs because of mobility spam without punishing the Thief enough.

The other major abuser of the Ini system is D/P 5 + 2.That allows instant Stealth access for the Thief, anytime, anywhere.

And is it really brain game to refresh Stealth repeatedly to avoid retaliation?Do note, Thieves are nowhere nearly as vulnerable to burst as they were before, and so the excuse of "but if they have no Stealth they will die" is not valid.

NorthernRedStar.3054 · March 13, 2021

@Yasai.3549 said:
@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:
Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.
So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

Lol is it really brain game if yu simply run very well and disengage really well?That's not brain game, Weaver can do that easily.But even Weavers run out of cooldowns regardless if they rotate their skills properly or not.

Thief on the other hand can do this over and over without consequence because they are resource gated, not cooldown gated.And that's why people take issue with the entire Profession as a whole : Initiative system.

SB5 was specifically targeted for nerfs because of mobility spam without punishing the Thief enough.

The other major abuser of the Ini system is D/P 5 + 2.That allows instant Stealth access for the Thief, anytime, anywhere.

And is it really brain game to refresh Stealth repeatedly to avoid retaliation?Do note, Thieves are nowhere nearly as vulnerable to burst as they were before, and so the excuse of "but if they have no Stealth they will die" is not valid.

Instant stealth via D/P 5 + 2. Heard it here, first, folks. Might want to argue without absurd statements like this - first off, there's the intent - then you got the chained cast times. A total of ~2 seconds to prepare and interrupt.

Kuma.1503 · March 13, 2021

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
@Kuma.1503 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
@Yasai.3549 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability

so considerably,

why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select

my

subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't.

While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics.

Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth).

The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you.

Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map.

In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect.

When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether.

Tl;dr: This is not a judement against the class. It's an objective assesment of it's stregnths and weaknesses.

Leonidrex.5649 · March 13, 2021

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
@Yasai.3549 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.
So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

Lol is it really brain game if yu simply run very well and disengage really well?That's not brain game, Weaver can do that easily.But even Weavers run out of cooldowns regardless if they rotate their skills properly or not.

Thief on the other hand can do this over and over without consequence because they are resource gated, not cooldown gated.And that's why people take issue with the entire Profession as a whole : Initiative system.

SB5 was specifically targeted for nerfs because of mobility spam without punishing the Thief enough.

The other major abuser of the Ini system is D/P 5 + 2.That allows instant Stealth access for the Thief, anytime, anywhere.

And is it really brain game to refresh Stealth repeatedly to avoid retaliation?Do note, Thieves are nowhere nearly as vulnerable to burst as they were before, and so the excuse of "but if they have no Stealth they will die" is not valid.

Instant stealth

via D/P 5 + 2. Heard it here, first, folks. Might want to argue without absurd statements like this - first off, there's the intent - then you got the chained cast times. A total of ~2 seconds to prepare and interrupt.

its 1,25s cast time total. but it also blinds twice so it kind off defends itself

NorthernRedStar.3054 · March 13, 2021

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
@Yasai.3549 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.
So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

Lol is it really brain game if yu simply run very well and disengage really well?That's not brain game, Weaver can do that easily.But even Weavers run out of cooldowns regardless if they rotate their skills properly or not.

Thief on the other hand can do this over and over without consequence because they are resource gated, not cooldown gated.And that's why people take issue with the entire Profession as a whole : Initiative system.

SB5 was specifically targeted for nerfs because of mobility spam without punishing the Thief enough.

The other major abuser of the Ini system is D/P 5 + 2.That allows instant Stealth access for the Thief, anytime, anywhere.

And is it really brain game to refresh Stealth repeatedly to avoid retaliation?Do note, Thieves are nowhere nearly as vulnerable to burst as they were before, and so the excuse of "but if they have no Stealth they will die" is not valid.

Instant stealth

via D/P 5 + 2. Heard it here, first, folks. Might want to argue without absurd statements like this - first off, there's the intent - then you got the chained cast times. A total of ~2 seconds to prepare and interrupt.

its 1,25s cast time total. but it also blinds twice so it kind off defends itself

Aftercast is a thing, you know. And I was counting the prep time into that 2s. You're also assuming Black Powder has been targeted and is facing the would-be attacker.

NorthernRedStar.3054 · March 13, 2021

@Kuma.1503 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
@Kuma.1503 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
@Yasai.3549 said:
@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.