Make Tempest a viable support - Move aurashare to tempest line!

[lLobo.7960]

As long as aurashare is stuck in the water line, Tempest will never be on a decent spot to be used as support as it is stuck to healing.

It does really nice healing but it can't provide decent buffs, and therefore it looses its spot to support builds that even with lower healing output can provide important boom support.

 

Here are a few ideas to change that:

Move aura-share trait away from water traitline and into tempest traitline. Swap it with healing auras trait, moving that to water trailine.

This is the main one. It will let tempests choose more freely what auras they want to provide to the team. 

 

Change aura traits so that auras pulse buffs, therefore creating more engaging gameplay of maintaining auras instead of spamming them.

Give each elemental traitline a trait to improve auras in general and the specific elemental aura with pulsing buffs.

• Fire Major Adept: Powerful Auras - Auras you apply give might (2 stacks 10s). Fire auras give extra might each second (1 stack 10s).
• Fire Major Master: Smothering Auras - Fire auras you apply last longer and pulse resolution (1s every second).

 

• Air Major Adept: Zephyr's Boon - Grant boons (fury and swiftness) to allies you grant auras to. Glyphs apply boons based on your attunement.
• Air Major Master: Zephyr speed - Static auras you apply pulse superspeed (3s every 3s). Apply quickness (3s) when you apply superspeed.

 

• Earth Major Adept: Rock Solid - Gain stability when attuning to earth. Magnetic auras you apply pulse stability (1s every second)
• Earth Major Master: Geomancer's Defense - Apply 3s Resolution when you apply Protection and apply 3s resistance and when you apply stability.
• Earth Major Master: Elemental Shielding - Grant protection when applying an aura to yourself or an ally. 

 

• Water Major Adept: Soothing Ice - Gain frost aura when critically hit. Frost auras you apply pulse regeneration (3s every 3s).
• Water Major Master: Invigorating Auras - Auras you apply heal allies and also grant vigor. (moved from tempest)

 

• Arcane Major Master: Final Shielding - Create an Lesser Arcane Shield when your health drops below the threshold. Arcane shield is now an aura, triggering aura effects.

 

• Tempest Major Grandmaster: Tempestuous Auras - When you apply an aura to yourself, apply the same aura to 10 allies.

 

This way, tempest can provide groups with might/fury/quickness/superspeed and be a decent offensive support while having decent dps (fresh-air overload), or be a defensive support providing the group with heals, stab/protection or resolution/resistance.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by lLobo.7960

[Jski.6180]

Water powerfull aura should stay in water line but it should also make the aura heal.

 

Make heat sink cop quirkiness and alacrity or all of the aggive boons in the game. At the same time make Sand Squall give + timer to all positive effects auras stealth and super speed. Make eye of the storm clear all non dmg condis, make auras give barriers, make overload aruas be aoe as well as making there boons 10 target. Just a few things anet could do to fix tempest.

[Zeesh.7286]

I have completely similar opinions. The fact that I am forced to pick water traitline for aurashare is absurd. Move it to the tempest traitline. 

[Infusion.7149]

Except the discretize power tempest actually uses water magic... https://discretize.eu/builds/elementalist/power-tempest

I'm not sure how effective swapping Invigorating Auras with Powerful auras would be, if you don't run tempest then your amount of party aura output isn't that high anyway.

It isn't stuck to healing, water was given damage modifiers that it didn't have originally , Flow Like Water only existed starting in 2019.
What needs to happen is the lightning orb RNG should be reduced or the damage nerf for May 11 stopped. With the change to retal, lightning orb and overload air will not implode DPS tempests. Pyromancer's Puissance shouldn't be removing might, that makes it completely unwieldy and people don't run it anymore as a result.

Fire already removes condis on auras, air already gives fury. Water doesn't need a huge buff to sustain , by running that traitline you already have Soothing Mist which affects 10+ people in a full squad. The only thing that would make sense is Rock Solid giving one stack of stability on magnetic aura , which would not be OP. However, if you trait earth magic you can make auras apply protection already.

Also you need to consider that auras aren't strippable. Like superspeed, anything that isn't a boon or condition needs to be given due care to ensure it isn't completely broken in competitive mode when stacked.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[CETheLucid.3964]

Probably not good practice to take something away from core Elementalist and give it to the elite spec. If the issue is Tempest not giving good boons comparable to other specs why not suggest Tempest be buffed to give those boons as part of it's identity as an elite spec? Or if the boon sharing from other classes/specs is just too good, why not bring them in line?

If Guardian tier is what feels nice, make other classes comparable. If the other classes are fine and Guardian is the outlier, then bring Guardian in line. Anet needs to decide what their baseline for balance is. If it's Guardian, the other classes are underpowered. If it's the other classes as a whole then Guardian is the OP outlier.

I know that's an oversimplification and players are always going to look for the cheesiest way to do something in any given environment but watching the current meta that players have carved out gives you an idea of what they're doing and what's "baseline". That's Guardian at the moment. Now if you go in the opposite direction and over tune some other class, meta slaves shift to that and build an entire scene out of that.

Anet needs to internally define what it wants as the baseline and keep the balance around that. So that certain players can then shake their fists at them and claim the game is boring and every class is the same.

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, CETheLucid.3964 said:

Probably not good practice to take something away from core Elementalist and give it to the elite spec. If the issue is Tempest not giving good boons comparable to other specs why not suggest Tempest be buffed to give those boons as part of it's identity as an elite spec? Or if the boon sharing from other classes/specs is just too good, why not bring them in line?

If Guardian tier is what feels nice, make other classes comparable. If the other classes are fine and Guardian is the outlier, then bring Guardian in line. Anet needs to decide what their baseline for balance is. If it's Guardian, the other classes are underpowered. If it's the other classes as a whole then Guardian is the OP outlier.

I know that's an oversimplification and players are always going to look for the cheesiest way to do something in any given environment but watching the current meta that players have carved out gives you an idea of what they're doing and what's "baseline". That's Guardian at the moment. Now if you go in the opposite direction and over tune some other class, meta slaves shift to that and build an entire scene out of that.

Anet needs to internally define what it wants as the baseline and keep the balance around that. So that certain players can then shake their fists at them and claim the game is boring and every class is the same.

If baseline is spamming aegis on <12s cooldown while not running any utility skills for sustain (while not interrupting any other skill) ... then it's clear that Firebrand is broken and needs to be adjusted.

The 100% increase to condition damage in exposed change is going to make it even worse while not helping most other condi classes keep up.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[CETheLucid.3964]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If baseline is spamming aegis on <12s cooldown while not running any utility skills for sustain... then it's clear that Firebrand is broken and needs to be adjusted.

 

Sure. Is that acceptable? Let's see what happens. 👌

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

On contrary I'd like to see the Elemental Bastion in core lanes. (Merged with powerful aura in water for exampleà

Auras should only be core mechanic, as it was originally designed and we still see a lot of traits in core lanes related to them despite Tempest and few auras in weapons otherwise.

And for tempest, may be one or two auras in skills and warhorn and no more, but no trait related to auras (like elemental bastion, instable conduit, invigorating torrents ; only to shouts and overloads.

 

Otherwise you have traits in core lanes, but nothing to actually play them without Tempest.

Imagine guard with symbols (Zeal, honor) but actuall only DH can spam symbols easily, but not core ?

It's the issue with Elem; you have traits in traitline  (zephyr thing, elemental shielding)... that are totally useless without other traits in others traitline (tempest, or fire), but with full traitline useless too  (An useless and selfish earth lane, only to share protection ?)

 

And so Core elem would get a viable healer/buffer build ; and tempest could balance it with larger range, others boons or buff etc.
 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[lLobo.7960]

On 5/5/2021 at 6:44 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

On contrary I'd like to see the Elemental Bastion in core lanes. (Merged with powerful aura in water for exampleà

Auras should only be core mechanic, as it was originally designed and we still see a lot of traits in core lanes related to them despite Tempest and few auras in weapons otherwise.

And for tempest, may be one or two auras in skills and warhorn and no more, but no trait related to auras (like elemental bastion, instable conduit, invigorating torrents ; only to shouts and overloads.

 

Otherwise you have traits in core lanes, but nothing to actually play them without Tempest.

Imagine guard with symbols (Zeal, honor) but actuall only DH can spam symbols easily, but not core ?

It's the issue with Elem; you have traits in traitline  (zephyr thing, elemental shielding)... that are totally useless without other traits in others traitline (tempest, or fire), but with full traitline useless too  (An useless and selfish earth lane, only to share protection ?)

 

And so Core elem would get a viable healer/buffer build ; and tempest could balance it with larger range, others boons or buff etc.
 

The idea of the swap (aura-share to tempest, aura-heal to water) and the other traits suggested is exactly to make Auras a core ele mechanic. The only thing tempest would have is to share the auras with the group/raid, being able to buff others (support) in different ways.

 

So core ele could use auras better (water would be able to heal with auras, and get regen/vigor, fire could get might with aura, etc) making auras much more useful for both core and weaver, if traited for. While tempest would expand this utility to the group.

[Xaylin.1860]

While I wished for Aura share being a core thing for a long time, nowadays I'd rather see it moved to Tempest/switched with EB and Shouts streamlined to only give a self-aura. It just makes more sense this way. Water GMs would also have a more distinct purpose (cleanse vs. group reg vs. self-heal unless Tempest).

 

Sure, core lacks the certain sth. when compared to Tempest or Weaver. But I do not believe Auras could help with that. I'd rather see a more extensive rework to especially Arcana/Arcanes/Glyphs/Air to create more baseline Elementalist synergies to make a core set up more attractive. The overlap of those are a huge mess conceptually. I always found it ironic, that Glyphs felt more tuned towards Arcane and Arcanes towards Air.

[Erick Alastor.3917]

Interesting suggestions, but I wouldn't swap Elemental Bastion and Powerful Aura. 
Since they need eachothers to really shine.
I'd swap Powerful Aura with Latent Stamina (which grants vigor to allies attuning to WATER, plus restores endurance).
This way we may be able to drop Water sacrificing some sustain for extra boons. Going both Air and Fire, for example, we would easly cap Might and Fury.
Or we could still opt for water + earth for easy perma protection + good condi cleanses.

[lLobo.7960]

16 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said:

Interesting suggestions, but I wouldn't swap Elemental Bastion and Powerful Aura. 
Since they need eachothers to really shine.

They really don't.

They only need each other if you want to use auras to heal your team. 

You could still share auras for buffs (offensive buffs if you spec in fire/air, defensive if you spec earth/water).

Or you could use auras just for yourself (by not going tempest, or not using aura-share trait) to get more sustain (water with aura heal, earth with protection and stab) or any other other of the traits (more burst and mobility with air, more dmg with fire).

 

And yes, I fully agree that regen and vigor from auras should be also in water in some form.
Tempest should be about overloads and big AoE (AoE auras, AoE buffs, AoE effects).

This and other suggestions HERE.   

 

[Xaylin.1860]

16 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said:

Interesting suggestions, but I wouldn't swap Elemental Bastion and Powerful Aura. 
Since they need eachothers to really shine.
I'd swap Powerful Aura with Latent Stamina (which grants vigor to allies attuning to WATER, plus restores endurance).
This way we may be able to drop Water sacrificing some sustain for extra boons. Going both Air and Fire, for example, we would easly cap Might and Fury.
Or we could still opt for water + earth for easy perma protection + good condi cleanses.

That would also mean that you can't combo Unstable Conduit with Powerful Aura anymore which would be silly. Elemtal Bastion on the other hand doesn't need Powerful Aura any more than any other Aura trait. Especially since you could still grab Air/Fire for offense and less sustain even if Elemantal Bastion was in Water. And you could still go Water/Earth for defensive support.

 

So what's the real argument here? It's about a Powerful Aura boosted Invigorating Torrents synergizing with Cleansing Water, isn't it? 😜

 

 

 

 

[Xaylin.1860]

19 minutes ago, lLobo.7960 said:

And yes, I fully agree that regen and vigor from auras should be also in water in some form.

Tempest should be about overloads and big AoE (AoE auras, AoE buffs, AoE effects).

This and other suggestions HERE.   

 

Soothing Ice could easily grant Regeneration on Aura instead of Invigorating Torrents. I disagree on Vigor. Personally, I'm fine with it being in Tempest. Maaaaaybe Swiftness from Zephyrs Boon would have to move to Invigorating Torrents then just to balance out the Aura traits a bit better.

[Erick Alastor.3917]

6 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

That would also mean that you can't combo Unstable Conduit with Powerful Aura anymore which would be silly. Elemtal Bastion on the other hand doesn't need Powerful Aura any more than any other Aura trait. Especially since you could still grab Air/Fire for offense and less sustain even if Elemantal Bastion was in Water. And you could still go Water/Earth for defensive support.

 

So what's the real argument here? It's about a Powerful Aura boosted Invigorating Torrents synergizing with Cleansing Water, isn't it? 😜

 

 

 No no, I'm seriously focusing on the synergy of Elemental Bastion and Powerful Aura.
You can barely notice it when playing tempest heal with Staff, but once you go D/W, it becomes way more useful, and it even synergize well with D/D.
Unstable Conduit (I use that right now) is a really good trait BUT timing its use is kinda hard since the aura effect is applied only when an overload is finished so it feels more like a filler than anything else.
On the other hand Powerful Aura enable you to pretty nice extra healing combos thanks to blast and leap finishers.
It enforces a more dynamic playstyle.
So I wouldn't mind sacrificing UC for PA if PA was swapped with Latent Stamina. 😚

I have to admit I would obviusly choose Cleansing Water at that point if using the water line, I already use Invigorating Torrents most of the times so it could only make sense.
Maybe after a change like this they could introduce a small ICD on CW. 🙄

Edited May 12, 2021 by Erick Alastor.3917

[Touchme.1097]

How about redesigning the whole elementalist profession to only grant as many attunements as the elements chosen in the build? It would be even easier to balance and to play and it could offer the chance to give Elementalist the alacrity it needs for itself and for being a competitive choice.

[Erick Alastor.3917]

 

5 minutes ago, Touchme.1097 said:

How about redesigning the whole elementalist profession to only grant as many attunements as the elements chosen in the build? It would be even easier to balance and to play and it could offer the chance to give Elementalist the alacrity it needs for itself and for being a competitive choice.

I like having many attunements, it's one of the things that make the class fun to play for me, so I'd be against it,
but it could definetly also lead to some improvements as you say, and versatility.
Dunno, it's an hard choice, if possible I'd still prefer they found a way to make us more competitive as healers without simplifying our playstyle, I cried a lilttle when they merged distortion and continuum split on chrono. 😢

[Jski.6180]

After seeing what light aura has become maybe its time to buff the other auras.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

At this point I'm thinking we should make aura spreading an innate feature of the elementalist, and just get rid of the Powerful Auras trait for something new in the water line.  Make it so basically every skill (weapon, utility, trait, overload) gives auras out to 5 people instead of just the ele.  Doing this will let all ele builds utilize all of the different buffs and abilities, instead of just the one.

 

There's precedent for this.  A long time ago, to make a condi thief you had to go into shadow arts to get venomshare.  Anet made venomshare innate to the skills eventually, which made them far better.  

[Xaylin.1860]

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

At this point I'm thinking we should make aura spreading an innate feature of the elementalist, and just get rid of the Powerful Auras trait for something new in the water line.  Make it so basically every skill (weapon, utility, trait, overload) gives auras out to 5 people instead of just the ele.  Doing this will let all ele builds utilize all of the different buffs and abilities, instead of just the one.

 

There's precedent for this.  A long time ago, to make a condi thief you had to go into shadow arts to get venomshare.  Anet made venomshare innate to the skills eventually, which made them far better.  

Hardly the same considering Auras aren't a selfish Utility group that can be traited...

 

However, if we're discussing buffing core Elementalist: Sharing your Aura to nearby allies could easily be a F5 button comparable to F2 in core Revenant. I'm quite sure other people have made this suggestion before. Probably not meta in any way but still something baseline would have over Tempest.

 

 

7 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said:

[...]
So I wouldn't mind sacrificing UC for PA if PA was swapped with Latent Stamina. 😚

I have to admit I would obviusly choose Cleansing Water at that point if using the water line, I already use Invigorating Torrents most of the times so it could only make sense.
Maybe after a change like this they could introduce a small ICD on CW. 🙄

I just don't think your suggestion would happen. As I mentioned, it is way more powerful than swapping PA and EB. Plus, it basically deletes Smothering Aura due to the potential synergies with CW without sacrificing anything significant supportwise.

 

Putting an ICD onto CW would be horrible. Why would you even want that? 😱

[Erick Alastor.3917]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:29 PM, lLobo.7960 said:

They really don't.

They only need each other if you want to use auras to heal your team. 

You could still share auras for buffs (offensive buffs if you spec in fire/air, defensive if you spec earth/water).

Or you could use auras just for yourself (by not going tempest, or not using aura-share trait) to get more sustain (water with aura heal, earth with protection and stab) or any other other of the traits (more burst and mobility with air, more dmg with fire).

 

And yes, I fully agree that regen and vigor from auras should be also in water in some form.
Tempest should be about overloads and big AoE (AoE auras, AoE buffs, AoE effects).

This and other suggestions HERE.   

 

 

They do, for the reason you said yourself.
Don't we need to find our spot as wanted healers?

Also what I'm suggesting shouldn't impair aura sharing for non healing purposes.
With my change (I think) you should still be able to use auras for all the buffs you're mentioning.

 

On 5/12/2021 at 1:26 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

I just don't think your suggestion would happen. As I mentioned, it is way more powerful than swapping PA and EB. Plus, it basically deletes Smothering Aura due to the potential synergies with CW without sacrificing anything significant supportwise.

 

Putting an ICD onto CW would be horrible. Why would you even want that? 😱

Yep, probably it won't happen, but let's not say things like "too powerful" talking about ele when we have every lfg clogged by HFB.
It's a good buff to condi cleanse, yeah, but I wouldn't consider it OP.

Smothering Aura is a really good trait, but have you really felt, as an healer, the need to go SA instead of just dropping PA for CW?
As I already wrote, blast and leap finishers make PA worthy, but many auras are already shared baselie with shouts,
so when you need some extra condi cleanses you can always just drop PA for CW.

I think going fire just to deal with condi was already a waste support-wise before the change I'm proposing.
A CW+Staff already gives your party all the condi management it may need, you can kinda halfafk the fights (for example I never felt I had to go fire for SA with pugs that couldn't dodge a sloth' shake or at matty).

Also let's not forget that to have that synergy (according to my proposed change) you would be already sacrificing something, which is Unstable Conduit (since PA and UC would be on the same column).

To be honest I'd be more afraid of Soothing Mist, and I'd probably lower its effectiveness increase.

At that point if we don't add an ICD to CW (yep, this was why >), we could rework Smoothering Aura into something else (if having a personal condi cleanse is that needed in other game modes we could maintain that feature, but l still change it compared to what is now). To me it was always weird having a trait that's that supportive inside an otherwise completely offensive line (if we don't consider Blinding Ashes).

Also what the swapping of PA for EB you're proposing would accomplish?
If you're interested in the synergy between Zephyr's Boon and PA it would still be there, if you're interested in any other support mechanic bound to auras that doesn't revolve around healing, it would still be possible, all you'd lose would be Unstable Conduit, is it that strong of a trait to give up on the build that you have in mind?
I'm genuinely curious and hope I don't sound provocatory with my questions, I'm simply trying to understand if something I'm not thinking of would be broken or you simply really like UC. 🖖

[Xaylin.1860]

13 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said:

Also what the swapping of PA for EB you're proposing would accomplish?
If you're interested in the synergy between Zephyr's Boon and PA it would still be there, if you're interested in any other support mechanic bound to auras that doesn't revolve around healing, it would still be possible, all you'd lose would be Unstable Conduit, is it that strong of a trait to give up on the build that you have in mind?
I'm genuinely curious and hope I don't sound provocatory with my questions, I'm simply trying to understand if something I'm not thinking of would be broken or you simply really like UC. 🖖

Let's start here, even though it's at the end of your post.

 

Personally, I don't have a specific build I'd like to play. But I enjoy theorycrafting. If I had my way, I'd like to see Tempest to be reworked like a Warrior, with Elemental Energy being charged up like Adrenaline to be finally able to unleash an area effect as a Tempest version of a burst skill. Maybe this wouldn't even exclude Auras and Auras could become a core Elementalist thing. Like, F5 for Aura share or something. But I think it's unrealistic to expect something like that. While I hate removing stuff from core to give it to an Elite, I think in case of the Elementalist/Tempest switching PA and EB is a reasonable sacrifice for core to fledge out the Elite and instead give core other capabilities at a later point in time. Meaning, I'm not for just swapping EB and PA, but I think it could be a reasonable option for a slight rework like it happened to, for example, Scrapper. This would also solve another issue: As long as Weaver has access to PA, Tempest will probably never be better at sharing Auras due to finishers. I guess we both agree that PA could find its footing in Tempest. However, we seem to agree on how this should happen.

 

In this line of thinking, a switch of EB and PA would probably at least include:

1. Making Shouts only apply Aura to yourself (consistency)
2. Not adding an ICD to CW
3. Adding something to core Elementalist later.

 

The first, yes, it's a nerf to Shouts, to balance out skills and traits among each other. You can get all Aura related traits and skills you want, but you will have to make a choice on GM level wether you want it to be for selfish reasons or for group support. If you want to go for group support, PA it is. But both options could be valid. The beauty of this change is, that you can decide on the source of the Aura yourself. To you want to provide Auras through skills, take Shouts. Are you fine with Overloads, maybe play a FA build, you might want UC. You got a choice. There is no obvious 'best in slot' option for Aura gameplay. Because, let's be real here: If PA competed with UC, unless you solely play solo, NOBODY would pick UC. Even if you are solo, Gale Song could still easily be better. There also would be very clear BIS picks on the Master and GM level as well as with Utilities PA: Better not pick Shouts because it is basically a waste due to PA (at least from an Aura perspective, mind you). Better always pick IT and EB even if you won't go for a healing build. Because everything else would be inefficient and you might as well not go Aura at all. That are just some reasons why I don't like your proposition. In the end, it's more about a powercreep to a specific build rather than actually opening up build options for Aura gameplay on Tempest.

 

The second is to not reduce build diversity elsewhere just for Aura Tempest. I mean... seriously... maybe people don't want to play Aura and still want to be able to remove conditions via Regeneration? You said it yourself. Staff and others.

 

The third, I don't really know. Elementalist is very complex. I also feel that the stat boni Weaver get's are misplaced and probably should be a core Elementalist thing. But that's a different story.

 

13 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said:

Yep, probably it won't happen, but let's not say things like "too powerful" talking about ele when we have every lfg clogged by HFB.
It's a good buff to condi cleanse, yeah, but I wouldn't consider it OP.

Wrong train of thought, imho. If you're not looking for more condition removal, with my proposition you could still go EB in Water and get more healing. Don't want the healing? Go somewhere else. What's your argument here? Your suggestion would just shift an unnecessary amount of power to Tempest. LS is hardly GM worthy.

 

In the end, at least at this point in time, SA offers a decent amount of build diversity if you're looking for Aura based condition removal. With your change, it would become indefinitely more unattractive for Aura builds because IT + CW would be much better for this purpose and also easily accessible. Again, best in slot, yadda yadda.

 

Of course, this could be also discussed from a totally different perspective. Why should there be a way to get it all, PA+EB+IT+CW if your argument is, that CW+Staff is enough condition removal?

 

13 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said:

I think going fire just to deal with condi was already a waste support-wise before the change I'm proposing.
A CW+Staff already gives your party all the condi management it may need, you can kinda halfafk the fights (for example I never felt I had to go fire for SA with pugs that couldn't dodge a sloth' shake or at matty).

 

So what is it now? Is getting PA+IT+EB+CW a good buff that is not OP? Or is it a waste because you already didn't care about SA?

 

Also ask yourself: Why didn't you have to go SA? Because you had Water? Likely. Ever thought about an Aura-share build that does NOT take Water but still has condition removal capabilities? I'm not thinking about anything specific here. But both Tempest/Fire/Earth or Tempest/Fire/Air could work as a non-healing Aura build and still maintain those supportive capabilities.

 

Quote

Also what the swapping of PA for EB you're proposing would accomplish?
If you're interested in the synergy between Zephyr's Boon and PA it would still be there, if you're interested in any other support mechanic bound to auras that doesn't revolve around healing, it would still be possible, all you'd lose would be Unstable Conduit, is it that strong of a trait to give up on the build that you have in mind?

 

 

Well... right back at ya?! Not meaning to be rude. Just want to be honest. So far I just don't get why you believe switching PA with LS is better than EB. Due to personal preference, I might be more attracted to a possible synergy of UC and PA than you. But even if this was left aside, I still don't get the appeal. To me, it opens up way more balancing issues than it is worth while not really creating build diversity. Because it creates obvious BIS picks, especially for heal focussed Aura builds. And ironically, those might not even include Water, because you already got your packaged deal of PA+IT+EB in Tempest.

 

Now, getting back to UC: A trait that provides a single Aura upon an action but can not be combined with the potentially most build defining Aura trait PA, is amazingly aweful game design. That's why I won't like any proposition that goes this way, regardless of which traits are switched. You might as well delete UC at this point.

 

P.S.: Yikes. Multi-quotes in the new forum are a challenge...

[Jski.6180]

The only way to make tempest viable is to give is a strong boon alacrity or quinkess take your pick.

[Erick Alastor.3917]

On 5/14/2021 at 4:31 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

This would also solve another issue: As long as Weaver has access to PA, Tempest will probably never be better at sharing Auras due to finishers.

Yep, weavers would indeed lose access to PA, in both our ideas, and looks like we agree on that being something positive.

 

On 5/14/2021 at 4:31 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

Not adding an ICD to CW

I agree on this, it was a silly idea indeed, but only at the condition to rework SA.
The ablity to pick PA+CW+SA at the same time would be imo too strong, probably hardly required, but still too strong for condi management.

 

On 5/14/2021 at 4:31 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

So what is it now? Is getting PA+IT+EB+CW a good buff that is not OP? Or is it a waste because you already didn't care about SA?

Before my change you could get [LA+IT+EB]+[CW].
After my change you could get [PA+IT+EB]+[CW].

 

Before:
[LA+IT+EB]+[CW]. Auras heals you. Auras you grant with your shouts heal allies and condi cleanse them. You replenish your party endurance.
(Also) Before:
[LA+IT+EB]+[PA]. Every aura you grant heals allies. You replenish your party endurance. No extra condi cleanses.

After:
[PA+IT+EB]+[CW]. Every aura you grant heals allies and condi cleanse them. You do not replenish your party endurance.
(Also) After:
[PA+IT+EB]+[LA]. Every aura you grant heals allies. You replenish your party endurance. No extra condi cleanses.

Imo [PA+IT+EB]+[CW] > [LA+IT+EB]+[CW], but we can't consider it OP, the topic was about how to improve the tempest, and if you don't want to go the "just add quickness/alac" route, it could be a one of many decent buffs we could give it.
 

On 5/14/2021 at 4:31 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

LS is hardly GM worthy.

The Powerful Aura+Invigorating Torrents+Latent Stamina combo basically transforms every class in a daredevil, dodge-wise. 
LS ICD is only applied to the "attune to water" part, 10 endurance for every aura without an ICD, it may not be OP as a well placed aegis (and it may use a little buff), but it's still kinda nice, so it could very well be a GM trait imo. 

 

UC and Gale would still be valid alternatives to PA, but only 

if you do not do this:

 

On 5/14/2021 at 4:31 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

Making Shouts only apply Aura to yourself (consistency)

If you leave shouts as they are you wouldn't feel forced to go PA, thus beneficing from them even when using less aura oriented weapons, like staff (just like now).
In that case you could still want to pick Gale (which is kinda situational) or UC without having to sacrifice really strong burst heals.

Since you'd have to chose between UC or PA, you'd lose the ablity to share UC effects, and while I don't feel like that would be that big of an issue, probably it wouldn't be that big of an issue even granting them baseline on UC. So we could do that.

In the Tempest line:
PA? Share any Auara from your weapons and combos (this will favor specific weapons).
UC? Share 4 more Auras (unrelated to your weapons or fields).
^ Let's keep in mind that PA is redundant with baseline shouts auras, so you'll get those effect only once making UC still quite a decent contender.

 

On 5/14/2021 at 4:31 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

To me, it opens up way more balancing issues than it is worth while not really creating build diversity.
Because it creates obvious BIS picks, especially for heal focussed Aura builds. 
And ironically, those might not even include Water, because you already got your packaged deal of PA+IT+EB in Tempest.

As I wrote Gale and a little reworked UC could still be viable alternatives, and yep it's packaged on purpose, that means that you won't have to compromise picking specific specs to be viable as a pure healer, and on the contrary you could choose other lines to deal with specific needs.
Extra condi cleanses and healing: Water.
Dps/Offensive buffs(to be implemented): Fire.
Dps/Offensive buffs: Air.
Rezbotting/Miscellanea: Arcane.

 

On 5/14/2021 at 4:31 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

Why didn't you have to go SA? Because you had Water? Likely. Ever thought about an Aura-share build that does NOT take Water but still has condition removal capabilities?

Yep, mostly because you can already go water/use a staff/both if really needed.
I get your point but to be honest, are we really used to the type of gamplay you're implying?
What we have now in group content is basically always:
- A healer that also boost party dps (being hfb with quick etc or druid with might and spirits)
- A support that bring dps and boost party dps.
- Pure dps.

What you're proposing is being able to create a dps oriented build, that instead of buffing (or just buffing) the party would also deal with condis for everyone.
How many people would be interested in having that?
I for one am for build diversity, I kittening (selfcensoring myself) loved mixing skills in gw1 to create absurds interactions, but I learned that trying that here, usually, is not worth it. 
For example try to remove strong CC skills from some classes and see what will happen if EVERYONE must also be always aware of a simple breakbar.
Or another example: 
Could chrono sill provide alacrity and quickness in fractals? 
Yes. 
Does anyone want a chrono for that?
Nope, because why would them? We've got alaren who can already provide one boon pressing a single skill, and the hfb can cover for the other one as an afterthought too.
Same reason people, most of the time, try to fix underplayed healing classes just demanding for quickness or alacrity.
Simplicity.
It's compact, it's efficient, it's clear in its purpose.

And we could kinda get there, but providing something else.

Temp+Water+Earth: Big heals. Unmatched defense.
Temp+Air+Fire/Arcane: Reasonable heals. Good offensive buffs (Might and Fury).

Personally I'd like to have a third option tho, which could shake things a bit.
?+?+?: Reasonable heals. Small extra offensive boons. A DPS that counterbalances the fact boons you give are just average.
But that's just me, not sure it would work or the community would appreciate that, because everyone I talk to seems to prefer just seeing a nice cap on every boon since it's too hard to quantify the weight of offensive boons in every scenario.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Erick Alastor.3917