Signet Of Malice

[pureskullz.7536]

Everyone knows that this heal is horrible and needs to get changed. For example why the hell does it have a full second cast time when it gives you practically nothing at the very least make it instant cast. Only good thing it has going for it would be the low cooldown and the passive being meh but that's a whole lot better than that cast time.

Edited June 27, 2021 by pureskullz.7536

[Puck.3697]

Considering Snowcrows lists it as a Meta pick for Power daredevil kinda says everyone doesnt know the heals horrible tbh, u only take cloak heal when needing CC.

[SeTect.5918]

3 hours ago, pureskullz.7536 said:

Everyone knows that this heal is horrible and needs to get changed. For example why the hell does it have a full second cast time when it gives you practically nothing at the very least make it instant cast. Only good thing it has going for it would be the low cooldown and the passive being meh but that's a whole lot better than that cast time.

wtf? Look at the ele healing signet and say that again xD
And that signet is actually really op for some builds. Since condition thief is really good in PvE, it became really fine. In Open world you can run P/D and D/D with full trailblazers with that signet and you will change your opinion trust me, I tried it and its really fine as it is. A buff or something would just shoot condition thief over the top in open world. The damage and mobility are also the strength of thief so you neednt ask for 200 health per hit while ele is as bad as condi thief in open world and has a signet that does 200 health per skill, not even per hit + ele has less mobility than thief.
Lets say you play condition thief in open world with P/D. And you do 3 hits each second which is really easy to manage. You even can do more easily but lets just say 3 hits each second:

Easy math. 3 x 132 are 396 each second. (Warriors healing signet gains 344 each second, with a lower active effect and higher cooldown)
And all thief heals have a cooldown of over 20 seconds (except 1 and the signet). So if you 396 x 20 its 7.920 and thats more than any other heal of thief does.

Also there shouldnt be 1 heal for all builds so thats really fair that this signet is mainly only good for condi thief  (or argueable double pistol).


If you want a buff of a signet, choose elementalist healing signet, it is waaaaay worse.
Signet of malice (thief) - 132 health per hit. 3,275 health by active effect, 15 seconds cooldown. 1 and a quarter second casting duration.
Signet of Restoration (elementalist) - 202 health per attack. 3,275 health by active effect, 25 seconds cooldown. 1 second casting duration.

kitten i think ele would love to get the healing signet of thief. Let them change if you want! 😄

[DeceiverX.8361]

Per the usual the problem is more or less the PvP/PvE dynamic.

 

PvE - Fine I guess.  Weak on most builds, but decent on the raid setup I guess.  HPS isn't very good on anything but M7 DE though by nature of how initiative works.

 

PvP and especially WvW - A serious contender for worst heal in the game because the thief is generally so vulnerable while attacking and gets stat-checked more or less immediately while not having the durability to perform a 1s cast outside of stealth.  Which if you're playing a stealth build, implies no benefit from the passive effect.

 

It could probably use a PvP/WvW buff but honestly it's so low on the priority list of other necessary changes because frankly it'll always be kind of bad unless the thief can actually attack aggressively out of stealth.

Edited June 27, 2021 by DeceiverX.8361

[Zacchary.6183]

Signet of Malice passive heal proc has no cast time and activates on EVERY hit. Meaning, for instance, if you land a full deathblossom on 5 targets it will proc a total of 15 times. That is a max potential 1,980 hp for one use of one skill. Even if the hit doesn't deal any damage or merely inflicts a condition, it will still proc. So imagine how much healing you will get if you fought a few enemies inside your aoes. Considering this, SoM passive is potentially the most powerful heal in the game.

 

The only reason why it sucks is because it is not meant for the thief community's semi-forced meta of dueling and +1. It is meant for aoe-heavy builds and against multiple opponents. Combining multiple aoes and attacks makes you almost immortal because the amount of rapid healing you can get from the passive alone is insane. Daggerstorm inside a small group can easily get you from 20% to full. Shortbow's Trick Shot with Sigil of Fire, Choking Gas, Caltrops, Shadow Flare, Smokescreen, etc, will proc SoM multiple times. It easily helped me survive against multiple Dragonhunters and their traps when they were FotM.

 

I only use the active when I need a small boost to help me finish off a skirmish or when I know I can spare ~8 seconds.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Zacchary.6183
clarification

[DeceiverX.8361]

2 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Signet of Malice passive heal proc has no cast time and activates on EVERY hit. Meaning, for instance, if you land a full deathblossom on 5 targets it will proc a total of 15 times. That is a max potential 1,980 hp for one use of one skill. Even if the hit doesn't deal any damage or merely inflicts a condition, it will still proc. So imagine how much healing you will get if you fought a few enemies inside your aoes. Considering this, SoM passive is potentially the most powerful heal in the game.

 

The only reason why it sucks is because it is not meant for the thief community's semi-forced meta of dueling and +1. It is meant for aoe-heavy builds and against multiple opponents. Combining multiple aoes and attacks makes you almost immortal because the amount of rapid healing you can get from the passive alone is insane. Daggerstorm inside a small group can easily get you from 20% to full. Shortbow's Trick Shot with Sigil of Fire, Choking Gas, Caltrops, Shadow Flare, Smokescreen, etc, will proc SoM multiple times. It easily helped me survive against multiple Dragonhunters and their traps when they were FotM.

 

I only use the active when I need a small boost to help me finish off a skirmish or when I know I can spare ~8 seconds.

 

Mostly because the entire rest of the thief isn't designed to do anything except 1v1 and +1.  ANet has literally said this, and said the power of the profession has been historically curbed specifically do fulfill this concept and no other on multiple occasions in their streams.

 

If a 1900 heal by spamming DB is letting you survive into 5 players to kill them all in 2 seconds of casting DB on end for ~6k hp (worse than HiS burst heal) when dumping all your initiative, and then doing nothing for 15s, those players are actually little more than training dummies.

 

This is like saying Blood Magic on Reaper offers amazing sustain because Death's Charge into 5 targets heals for almost exactly the same amount every 6 seconds before cooldown resets while reflecting projectiles and blinding, and Soul Spiral offers another 2.3k heal, and the AA offers a 400hp/second heal in the same context.  It's a bogus argument because these situations just aren't realistic or significant enough to actually impact durability.  And that's on a class designed to fight outnumbered.

 

It's the PvE/PvP split.  5 Mobs will let you do that and can be kited and have the low HP to die from condi on such a build.  Players don't let that happen unless they're no more competent than mobs, which is neither reflective for almost every player in the game, nor a baseline level of competency any discussions about balance have should be based on.

 

I tried making SoM work for seven years playing signet thief even when the signet trait was good.  It's garbage in every PvP/WvW context solely because of how it isn't compatible with how the rest of thief is designed/balanced.

[Zacchary.6183]

6 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

Mostly because the entire rest of the thief isn't designed to do anything except 1v1 and +1.  ANet has literally said this, and said the power of the profession has been historically curbed specifically do fulfill this concept and no other on multiple occasions in their streams.

 

If a 1900 heal by spamming DB is letting you survive into 5 players to kill them all in 2 seconds of casting DB on end for ~6k hp (worse than HiS burst heal) when dumping all your initiative, and then doing nothing for 15s, those players are actually little more than training dummies.

 

This is like saying Blood Magic on Reaper offers amazing sustain because Death's Charge into 5 targets heals for almost exactly the same amount every 6 seconds before cooldown resets while reflecting projectiles and blinding, and Soul Spiral offers another 2.3k heal, and the AA offers a 400hp/second heal in the same context.  It's a bogus argument because these situations just aren't realistic or significant enough to actually impact durability.  And that's on a class designed to fight outnumbered.

 

It's the PvE/PvP split.  5 Mobs will let you do that and can be kited and have the low HP to die from condi on such a build.  Players don't let that happen unless they're no more competent than mobs, which is neither reflective for almost every player in the game, nor a baseline level of competency any discussions about balance have should be based on.

 

I tried making SoM work for seven years playing signet thief even when the signet trait was good.  It's garbage in every PvP/WvW context solely because of how it isn't compatible with how the rest of thief is designed/balanced.

This is a very big strawman. I only used one perfect DB as an example of how much you can heal on a single attack. That doesn't account for aoes (yes multiple) you have placed or the rest of the rotation including the various active and numerous defenses that keep your miniheals from being nullified. The main ones being evasion and traits like Invigorating Precision. You also have discounted things like cripple/bleed/poison spam which are enough to make DB builds effective, assuming the thief knows when and who to apply it to.

 

Now I understand your argument, but our experiences are vastly different. I have taken out plenty of thieves in PvP and WvW with deathblossom builds simply because the cripple and bleed spam. I have tackled big groups of mobs in Dragonstand, ones upwards of 8 with multiple vets and maybe one or two elites that often blow up most players, with power interrupt bow and at minimum lasted much longer than most because of Signet of Malice. And I can do all that because I build to maximise Signet of Malice, just like I build to maximise evades and condition duration/damage on DrD DB. The more hits I land, the more heals I get, the longer I can fight. That's not to say they are as effective now than they were back then, but that's the point of theorycrafting.

[foste.3098]

Som is one of the best if not the best healing skills for pve across the game when it comes to raw healing per second, especially if you are not solo and can have some other party members take agro off of you when you get over-preasured.

 

Combine som with invigorating precision and unironically turn on god mode, especially on something like staff daredevil which has allot of evade frames in its damage rotations.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAYZlZwmYXMMGJW2XXtaA-zxYYhoiZD6bEEYZ0WKURFY7hQINUPYJlnBA-e

 

This is a build i use to solo some fractals/dungeons and for solo open world play, give it a try and i guarantee you will change your mind about the signet

[pureskullz.7536]

This goes for both PvP & PvE there are better heals to be using and I even stated that the passive is one of the few things this heal has going for it but the cast time when you need the burst heal really neuters it. For PvE it's in much better spot meanwhile in PvP situations it's flat out unusable and if you really want the heal on hit you go with Crit strikes slot invigorating precision with an AoE or Pistols build and that trait alone out performs the heal.  @DeceiverX.8361 is also correct about there being higher priority problems for thief but this thread is just a discussion really about it and it's been a good bit since this heal has got any love & attention.

[necromaniac.7629]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:53 AM, SeTect.5918 said:

wtf? Look at the ele healing signet and say that again xD
And that signet is actually really op for some builds. Since condition thief is really good in PvE, it became really fine. In Open world you can run P/D and D/D with full trailblazers with that signet and you will change your opinion trust me, I tried it and its really fine as it is. A buff or something would just shoot condition thief over the top in open world. The damage and mobility are also the strength of thief so you neednt ask for 200 health per hit while ele is as bad as condi thief in open world and has a signet that does 200 health per skill, not even per hit + ele has less mobility than thief.
Lets say you play condition thief in open world with P/D. And you do 3 hits each second which is really easy to manage. You even can do more easily but lets just say 3 hits each second:

Easy math. 3 x 132 are 396 each second. (Warriors healing signet gains 344 each second, with a lower active effect and higher cooldown)
And all thief heals have a cooldown of over 20 seconds (except 1 and the signet). So if you 396 x 20 its 7.920 and thats more than any other heal of thief does.

Also there shouldnt be 1 heal for all builds so thats really fair that this signet is mainly only good for condi thief  (or argueable double pistol).


If you want a buff of a signet, choose elementalist healing signet, it is waaaaay worse.
Signet of malice (thief) - 132 health per hit. 3,275 health by active effect, 15 seconds cooldown. 1 and a quarter second casting duration.
Signet of Restoration (elementalist) - 202 health per attack. 3,275 health by active effect, 25 seconds cooldown. 1 second casting duration.

kitten i think ele would love to get the healing signet of thief. Let them change if you want! 😄

Exactly, the heal is good.

[Puck.3697]

On 6/27/2021 at 6:32 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Per the usual the problem is more or less the PvP/PvE dynamic.

 

PvE - Fine I guess.  Weak on most builds, but decent on the raid setup I guess.  HPS isn't very good on anything but M7 DE though by nature of how initiative works.

 

PvP and especially WvW - A serious contender for worst heal in the game because the thief is generally so vulnerable while attacking and gets stat-checked more or less immediately while not having the durability to perform a 1s cast outside of stealth.  Which if you're playing a stealth build, implies no benefit from the passive effect.

 

It could probably use a PvP/WvW buff but honestly it's so low on the priority list of other necessary changes because frankly it'll always be kind of bad unless the thief can actually attack aggressively out of stealth.

 

but i feel like this dynamic isnt a problem considering we have multiple heal spells to choose from.

[Sobx.1758]

On 6/29/2021 at 9:34 AM, pureskullz.7536 said:

This goes for both PvP & PvE there are better heals to be using and I even stated that the passive is one of the few things this heal has going for it but the cast time when you need the burst heal really neuters it. For PvE it's in much better spot meanwhile in PvP situations it's flat out unusable and if you really want the heal on hit you go with Crit strikes slot invigorating precision with an AoE or Pistols build and that trait alone out performs the heal.  @DeceiverX.8361 is also correct about there being higher priority problems for thief but this thread is just a discussion really about it and it's been a good bit since this heal has got any love & attention.

Passive IS what is supposed to be the main source of heal from that signet, if the active heal could compete with other heals then there would barely be any reason to pick anything else, since they'd be similar +signet has a constant passive healing.

And you actually said "the passive is meh".

[Obtena.7952]

Clearly, someone doesn't know how to use Signet of Malice effectively. 

 

You know what I do when I think a skill isn't good though? I just don't use it ... so what is the OP REALLY complaining about here? He's got 3 other healing skills he could use. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[reddie.5861]

On 6/27/2021 at 6:53 PM, SeTect.5918 said:

If you want a buff of a signet, choose elementalist healing signet, it is waaaaay worse.
Signet of malice (thief) - 132 health per hit. 3,275 health by active effect, 15 seconds cooldown. 1 and a quarter second casting duration.
Signet of Restoration (elementalist) - 202 health per attack. 3,275 health by active effect, 25 seconds cooldown. 1 second casting duration.

kitten i think ele would love to get the healing signet of thief. Let them change if you want! 😄

difference is a ele doesnt need to hit anything just 1111 plus ele has water attunement that heals aswell and if traited for it u get healing from swapping between attunments also.
 

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, reddie.5861 said:

difference is a ele doesnt need to hit anything just 1111 plus ele has water attunement that heals aswell and if traited for it u get healing from swapping between attunments also.
 

Like you would just run around in a fight and 1111 without hitting enemy and it would help. Pls dont tell me that.
You also talk about other heals now and not just signet of malice even if it was the main topic here. But if you wanna start this, sure.

Water attunement doesnt heal a lot without healing power + its a giiiiaaaaant damage loss if you are condi and power you can forget in most gamemodes anyway as ele, especially in open world what i was talking about.
Signet of Malice is still so extremely strong. Not to mention that you can pair it with Invigorating Precision that heals 10% of your critical hits and 20% with fury. These 2 paired are so high passive heals and you just have to hit the enemy.
+ You can go for Shadow Arts you can play Cloaked in shadow with pistol and Smoke screen, wanna know how many that heals if you use stealth attack of pistol paired with signet of malice?
5x 132 from signet of malice so 660
5x 194 from cloaked in shadow and smoke screen combo field with stealth attack pistol finisher makes 970
7x 194 from smoke screen that pulses blindness for 7 seconds makes 1,358
504 by a trait that you have automatically on Shadow Arts if you hit with a stealth attack. 
This makes 3,492.
If you play deadeye you can also use rune of tormenting and get 5x the bonus of rune of tormenting, I guess that was 171 per torment stack? so again 5x 171. That adds 855 to the 3,492.
Not to mention skill 3 of pistol x dagger does 4 stacks torment too.
If you want you can also use celestial or vipers stats and use Critical Strikes instead of Deadly arts, you will lose a lot of condi dps but hey, you get 10% heal based on the critical damage and 20% with fury, bonus heal yeee.

That ele can 1111 is true but you have to kill the enemy if you wanna win right? And not just 1111 while running away. Most bosses also have mobility skills or range attacks to follow you easily so that wont help, the best defense of ele is the damage, like: kill them before they kill you. Running away and 1111 does the opposite.
Ele has no constant heal thats why you have to always dps in fights.

I dont want to talk thief op now but signet of malice is 10x better than the signet of ele. Just to make that clear.

Edited July 2, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Like you would just run around in a fight and 1111 without hitting enemy and it would help. Pls dont tell me that.
You also talk about other heals now and not just signet of malice even if it was the main topic here. But if you wanna start this, sure.

"If you wanna start this"? Sorry, but you're the first one that brought it up in this thread lmao

 

On 6/27/2021 at 6:53 PM, SeTect.5918 said:

wtf? Look at the ele healing signet and say that again xD

Literally the start of your first post in this thread 🤔 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[SeTect.5918]

33 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"If you wanna start this"? Sorry, but you're the first one that brought it up in this thread lmao

 

Literally the start of your first post in this thread 🤔 

 

I was comparing signets with signets and not with random other healing skills of the class lmao. I still talked about the same skill type because the OP said the signet is bad but I said this to make clear that there are worse signets. You randomly used water attunement to argue which has nothing to do with signets.

Edited July 2, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Sobx.1758]

25 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I was comparing signets with signets and not with random other healing skills of the class lmao. I still talked about the same skill type because the OP said the signet is bad but I said this to make clear that there are worse signets. You randomly used water attunement to argue which has nothing to do with signets.

Wasn't me, but ok 😄

 

Either way, the signet doesn't really need buffs (OP has a choice of healing skills if he wants the active one) and neither does the ele's and you trying to sell more ele tears (which at this point is just a weak meme) here or pretend like "this one is 10x better than the other" isn't really needed.

[SeTect.5918]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Wasn't me, but ok 😄

 

Ah i just saw it, my bad, i am sorry 😀

 

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Either way, the signet doesn't really need buffs (OP has a choice of healing skills if he wants the active one) and neither does the ele's and you trying to sell more ele tears (which at this point is just a weak meme) here or pretend like "this one is 10x better than the other" isn't really needed.

Yes it doesn't need buffs.

I also don’t want to buff ele signet, maybe power ele and thief need a sustain buff, but not on the signets. 

Eles signet was just the best way to explain why signet of malice needs no buff.

All other signets have a fully different effect or are just not comparable, like Guardian, condition remove had nothing to do with healing on hit.

Tbh all classes could make profit out of signet of malice, maybe mesmer not because they lose damage then.

But ele is one of the worse open world classes since i used Soloing as example.

Maybe i compared too much to ele, but this whole point should still be...understandable:

 

1 hour ago, SeTect.5918 said:

You can go for Shadow Arts you can play Cloaked in shadow with pistol and Smoke screen, wanna know how many that heals if you use stealth attack of pistol paired with signet of malice?
5x 132 from signet of malice so 660
5x 194 from cloaked in shadow and smoke screen combo field with stealth attack pistol finisher makes 970
7x 194 from smoke screen that pulses blindness for 7 seconds makes 1,358
504 by a trait that you have automatically on Shadow Arts if you hit with a stealth attack. 
This makes 3,492.
If you play deadeye you can also use rune of tormenting and get 5x the bonus of rune of tormenting, I guess that was 171 per torment stack? so again 5x 171. That adds 855 to the 3,492.
Not to mention skill 3 of pistol x dagger does 4 stacks torment too.
If you want you can also use celestial or vipers stats and use Critical Strikes instead of Deadly arts, you will lose a lot of condi dps but hey, you get 10% heal based on the critical damage and 20% with fury, bonus heal yeee.

The signet alone is not bad already but thief has so many passive heals to pair with this signet...you know what i mean.

 

Howeeever sorry again, i really didnt see that someone else wrote that with water attunement. But you might also get what i mean with that. I was still comparing signets with signets and not including water attunement that has nothing to do with signet of malice anymore. 

[reddie.5861]

On 7/3/2021 at 1:19 AM, SeTect.5918 said:

I was comparing signets with signets and not with random other healing skills of the class lmao. I still talked about the same skill type because the OP said the signet is bad but I said this to make clear that there are worse signets. You randomly used water attunement to argue which has nothing to do with signets.

fine u wanna compare signets with signets..

 

malice sucks. why? because burst heal from it sucks, u dont need malice when u trait CS
in PvE alone CS is enough.

in s PvP and WvW u need burst heal so both suck.

end of discussion.

 

as for water attunement this adds the burst needed to make signet on ele somewhat valid if not any burst class will wreck ur balls with a silly signet on u.
tho im not sure what we talking about this section needs PvE / PvP tag to their topics cus i dont see why any1 would run signet on thief ever.

Edited July 5, 2021 by reddie.5861

[SeTect.5918]

8 hours ago, reddie.5861 said:

fine u wanna compare signets with signets..

 

malice sucks. why? because burst heal from it sucks, u dont need malice when u trait CS
in PvE alone CS is enough.

in s PvP and WvW u need burst heal so both suck.

end of discussion.

 

as for water attunement this adds the burst needed to make signet on ele somewhat valid if not any burst class will wreck ur balls with a silly signet on u.
tho im not sure what we talking about this section needs PvE / PvP tag to their topics cus i dont see why any1 would run signet on thief ever.

As i said, condi thief with that signet is fine, really fine. Due to Shadow Arts and however, but i dont want to argue about that anymore.

I more want to say:
I dont want a direct buff on Signet of Malice,
BUT i would like to see a buff on the signet trait of "Critical Strikes". Its called "Signets of Power". This trait does...this:

Signet of Malice: Heal when you kill a foe.

Assassins Signet: Gain might when you kill a foe.

Infiltrators Signet: Restore initiative when you kill a foe.

Signet of Agility: Regain endurance when you kill a foe.

Signet of Shadows: Gain stealth when you kill a foe. (No effect if already stealthed.)

Recharge Reduced: 20%



That bonuses are all when you kill a foe, which is completely trash because thief is just not made for fighting more than 1 target. Or more than 2.
It should not give bonuses on killing a foe. That mechanic really needs a rework.
So basically i dont want a signet of malice rework, but i want a rework of that trait that includes signet of malice, that trait annoys me a long time already now.

Edited July 5, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Blocki.4931]

Signets aren't meant to be used for the most part. You take them exactly for the passive.

[Zacchary.6183]

On 7/5/2021 at 6:44 AM, reddie.5861 said:

u dont need malice when u trait CS

Why not use both?

[SeTect.5918]

44 minutes ago, Highlie.7641 said:

Dont use this trait, The last version of this trait had some uses, what they changed it to (the current version) is straight up garbage.

yea exacty thats why i want a change 😄 that trait is the definition of garbage

[cyberzombie.7348]

The  thing is, while that heal is crap in 1v1 situations it actually scales decently when aggressively fighting multiple targets. However,  it demands a build that has you constantly staying on top of 3 or more targets while at the same time avoiding hits as much as possible for any practical use. In addition to having a different mindset of a typical thief.