Tournament of Necros is what.....

[De Bourgogne.9642]

4 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

I cant understand how you can come to a forum and write about how certain builds need to effectively have their sustain reduced when the amulets provide the ability for most of that sustain then say there is nothing wrong with x amulet or y amulet. 

 

I also cant understand why you would bring up the need of making gameplay faster if according to you everything is FINE  cause META is glass cannon and its all everyone uses. WHY bring up the statement in the first place. This is what im trying to understand. I really need your help on this one and im not even being sarcastic. 

 

I cant comprehend the process of making a statement that x thing needs to be nerfed  for the sake of speeding up game play then doubling back on it 2 post later by saying "people dont play META like that so what you are saying makes no sense." 

 

Ele is poorly designed in a since that it requires both those stats to work which is why every time healing power amulets take a kick they get thrown out of the meta and every time healing stats amulets get a boost  they become too annoying and op for most people to handle apparently. 🤷‍♂️

I think fixing the amulet system would be a good start before going in to adjust any class or its traits for sustain. 

 

If scourge is the problem now it either still will be after the changes unless you gut it into an unusable state or people will move on to the next best thing which you might find to be equally annoying once you start seeing it every match 24/7

I personally think scourge is of poor design because its forced to play bunker to make up for what it lost with a very simple shroud mechanic that core and reaper both have. 

 

Anet removed a critical part of what makes necromancer function properly from an offensive and defensive aspect and replaced it with barrier+zone control which is not nearly as defensive as the shrouds are realistically. On top of this the utility scourge  gets does not make up for the lack of a shroud most of it is overloaded with boon hate instead of utility for the scourge.

 

As i told someone else do not include minion master scourge in this as minion master of any type is particularly problematic for a lot of builds/player and the issue with minion master lies within the minion traits themselves not particularly scourge traits.

Simple because certain builds have to much sustain and certain have acceptable sustain with these same amulets.

 

Because I am not saying that. I am saying certain builds are problematic not amulets they are using.

 

Idk what you are referring to.

 

Part of ele is poorly designed yes but when you compare it to certain other specs it is completely okay.

 

Yes you delete scourge because it was always a bad design. Tell me what will replace scourge and be as poorly designed and annoying to deal with? Scourge wasn't always a bunker and it was even worse.

 

Minionmaster builds should obviously also be deleted as well.

[Math.5123]

1 hour ago, Terrorsquad.2349 said:

I've played most games on thief, warr, ele and guard but I also played fair share of matches on other classes, except for Scourge, which I dont play because I dont really like playing Necro.

Now, I think you're a bit overreacting on my arguments. I did not say they are equal in mobility. I said they have to worry less about getting downed compared to a thief in a scenario where both are DPS'ing the target. Nade Holo can kite on and around a point to play duelist role vs 1 or sometimes even 2 enemies to keep them busy on and around a point (if they can kite). Can thief do that? Absolutely not and I dont want thief to do that and it's not meant to do that. Thief has stealth, yes, but Revealed is not uncommon in better ranked matches. What is a thief without stealth? All they can do is run if they still have the ini and shadowstep available. If not = gg. Stealth is not invuln. AoE certainly makes sure of that. Stealth is stealth, invuln is invuln, simple as that. A good daredevil doesn't just stealth and stay alive. It does its job by engaging and disengaging when it needs to without dying. Btw, nr1 rule overal in PvP for all classes: try do not die. Everyone should try to stay alive and kite by their own means. Stealth or teleport are the easiest ways at the cost of not being able to play revealed or spam 111111 while being visible in a fight while other classes are exact able to do that because it's meant that way.

 

Look I think we both want the best for PvP but discussing about stealth on a thief and compare it with other classes is getting us nowhere. Apples and oranges.. Can't compare. Game is not balanced and never will be.

What reveal are there in high tier games? Truly?

 

Dh isn't played at high tier, neither is warrior. So tether or shout reveal are out of the question. 

Engi doesn't run tools for lock-on anymore. 

Core necro has it on shroud if I recall correctly, but how many core necros do we really see compared to scourge and reaper?

I guess sic'em and the occasional Herald stunbreak.

 

This is indeed uncommon. 

[Math.5123]

8 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Simple because certain builds have to much sustain and certain have acceptable sustain with these same amulets.

 

Because I am not saying that. I am saying certain builds are problematic not amulets they are using.

 

Idk what you are referring to.

 

Part of ele is poorly designed yes but when you compare it to certain other specs it is completely okay.

 

Yes you delete scourge because it was always a bad design. Tell me what will replace scourge and be as poorly designed and annoying to deal with? Scourge wasn't always a bunker and it was even worse.

 

Minionmaster builds should obviously also be deleted as well.

I actually have to agree here. I had always advocated for big symbols to be removed in PvP. It promotes such kittenous gameplay for both parties. Same goes with scourge, renegade and wells in general. No matter how strong or weak they are, they promote lazy and boring gameplay. 

It doesn't only come in the form of big pulsing aoe.

 

Deadeye is another prime example of a design that will not be fun to play against, no matter how strong or weak it is. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

12 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Why do you bring up staff staff thief when I said that strong teamfight + unmatched decap roamer is overpowered state of thief?

 

Because thief builds have surfaced that are either one or the other and have been met with "overpowered, pls nerf" calls despite being severely lacking in the other node approach areas. Thief is only unmatched decap roamer now and yet here we are arguing about nerfs/reworks.

 

Thief was Staff Staff then (which means it had to commit to that point and stay there) and staff (and most of acro) was made almost unusable competitively as a result. Your bar for what qualifies thief for reworking/adjusting is lower than what you claim it is, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

 

Or are you saying that thief has strong teamfight potential now, despite it being missing from 2v2 / 3v3 games entirely?

 

Quote

Well if everyone found those thief builds so obnoxious the were probably onto something? Maybe they were? I don't mind thief having a sidenode build as long as its not obnoxious pretty simple concept, same as I don't want any other class to have obnoxious sidenode builds.

 

Obnoxious is not synonymous with unbeatable or overpowered. 

Most sidenode builds are obnoxious. They're made to sit on the point and chase people off of it until they get +1ed. 

 

Quote

I agree that reworking thief would be very hard to do and I don't expect it to happen, so I stand by the idea if something is not a good design and can't be balanced nerf it into irrelevance.

 

I see. 

[Math.5123]

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 

Because thief builds have surfaced that are either one or the other and have been met with "overpowered, pls nerf" calls despite being severely lacking in the other node approach areas. Thief is only unmatched decap roamer now and yet here we are arguing about nerfs/reworks.

 

Thief was Staff Staff then (which means it had to commit to that point and stay there) and staff (and most of acro) was made almost unusable competitively as a result. Your bar for what qualifies thief for reworking/adjusting is lower than what you claim it is, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

 

Or are you saying that thief has strong teamfight potential now, despite it being missing from 2v2 / 3v3 games entirely?

 

 

Obnoxious is not synonymous with unbeatable or overpowered. 

Most sidenode builds are obnoxious. They're made to sit on the point and chase people off of it until they get +1ed. 

 

 

I see. 

Thief does have strong teamfight presence as they are the only class to be able to interrupt Glyph. 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

15 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

I actually have to agree here. I had always advocated for big symbols to be removed in PvP. It promotes such kittenous gameplay for both parties. Same goes with scourge, renegade and wells in general. No matter how strong or weak they are, they promote lazy and boring gameplay. 

It doesn't only come in the form of big pulsing aoe.

 

Deadeye is another prime example of a design that will not be fun to play against, no matter how strong or weak it is. 

Well you probably won't agree with my full list of specs that should be nerfed to the ground or reworked which i posted earlier:

- Scourge

- Firebrand (done)

- Deadeye

- Daredevil

- Dragonhunter

- Any heavy pve reliant builds (minionmancer necro and tempest)

- Ranger pets and ranger shortbow

- Mirage

- Chaos inspiration staff mesmer builds

- Jalis revenant builds

- Prot holo

- Rune of the trapper

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

Thief does have strong teamfight presence as they are the only class to be able to interrupt Glyph. 

 

*squint* ??

 

You're gonna have to explain that one. Glyph of renewal? what about the 99% of the fight where that isn't being cast? 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261
???

[De Bourgogne.9642]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

*squint* ??

 

 

You're gonna have to explain that one. Glyph of renewal? what about the 99% of the fight where that isnt being cast? 

 

What? Its cast almost every teamfight.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

What? Its cast almost every teamfight.

 

I never would have thought to be witness to more than one person arguing that thief is strong in 2v2 / 3v3 scenarios purely because it can interrupt one skill an elementalist casts.

 

You got me guys. I'm gonna go get some coffee. ya'll have fun. ❤️

Edited July 16, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[ZDragon.3046]

19 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Simple because certain builds have to much sustain and certain have acceptable sustain with these same amulets.

Certain builds also have too much damage under glass cannon standards what should we do about that? 

True shot doing 12k from stealth is fine right?

Sickem Ranger is fine right being able to burst from range and instantly jump into melee (soulbeast smoke scale ability)range with 0 animation tell while dropping target and evading while doing damage is fine right? 

 

19 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

 

Because I am not saying that. I am saying certain builds are problematic not amulets they are using.

I argue its the otherway around many builds dont work without being empowered by the amulets.

Also trying to argue sustain vs offensive power is tough and objective both you and myself. 

 

I dont even like scourge and i can see that its offensive power is rather slow even in comparison to something like core necro and reaper with core being fairly slow as it is and reaper being barely fast enough to kill in a burst but (usually leaving most people PLENTY OF TIME  to react and get away should the be average and have cds avalible) <<< probably where most builds should be in terms of kill speed potential

 

When by comparison you have many other professions and builds who have much higher kill potential burst speed can you really argue that scourge's sustain is too high when you compare its offensive kill speed?

Even rangers have a current build thats going around where a drake tail slaps you for 8k WITH ALMOST NO TELL ANIMATION which is half a necormancers base hp and 70-80% of every other classes base health pool. While the ranger gets to run around with defensive stats and evasion / blocking weapons equipped. 

 

If it really is too high then nerf it but keep in mind of how slow necro's ramp is in comparison and the fact that barrier does not = shroud defense alone 

 

19 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Idk what you are referring to.

 

Part of ele is poorly designed yes but when you compare it to certain other specs it is completely okay.

Nah if its bad its bad its not ok in comparison if it currently had a better amulet you would say its just as problematic. 

19 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

 

Yes you delete scourge because it was always a bad design. Tell me what will replace scourge and be as poorly designed and annoying to deal with? Scourge wasn't always a bunker and it was even worse.

Scourge was bugged during this time and had about as much ramp up as alot of other condition builds had at that time and people hated it I do remember this yes. Scourge is bad design, Ele is also bad design, Thief is also bad design, about the only good and balanced design is warrior, Ranger is just a more broken and improved warrior that has pet AI and breakstuns that have far too low of a cool down and too much utility traited into them. 

 

19 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

 

Minionmaster builds should obviously also be deleted as well.

Reworked not deleted. The main issue with minion master builds is the trait that reflects conditions placed on the minions or their owner back to their targets even if you are on a power build fighting against a minion master this becomes exceptionally problematic to deal with as you are forced to retreat or face a potentially high condition impairment from even a single skill you throw out. you have to first deal with the AI and cannot brute force your way to the minion master alone in MOST cases. 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

11 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Reworked not deleted. The main issue with minion master builds is the trait that reflects conditions placed on the minions or their owner back to their targets even if you are on a power build fighting against a minion master this becomes exceptionally problematic to deal with as you are forced to retreat or face a potentially high condition impairment from even a single skill you throw out. you have to first deal with the AI and cannot brute force your way to the minion master alone in MOST cases. 

Got nothing more to discuss if you think that minionmancer problem is a trait not the fact that AI plays the game for you. Only minion used ever should be worm as stunbreak port everything else belongs into open world pve builds for bad players.

[Math.5123]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

*squint* ??

 

You're gonna have to explain that one. Glyph of renewal? what about the 99% of the fight where that isn't being cast? 

 

My bad.  Signet. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Math.5123

[De Bourgogne.9642]

Running another teamfighter over thief might invalidate singet/gylph rupt since you might win a teamfight even if they reset it once. And thief doesn't always have steal for rupt. But that is just teamfight. 

[Crab Fear.1624]

This is cool, a necro thread in pvp became a thief thread.

[Kanto.2485]

3 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Certain builds also have too much damage under glass cannon standards what should we do about that? 

True shot doing 12k from stealth is fine right?

Sickem Ranger is fine right being able to burst from range and instantly jump into melee (soulbeast smoke scale ability)range with 0 animation tell while dropping target and evading while doing damage is fine right? 

 

I argue its the otherway around many builds dont work without being empowered by the amulets.

Also trying to argue sustain vs offensive power is tough and objective both you and myself. 

 

I dont even like scourge and i can see that its offensive power is rather slow even in comparison to something like core necro and reaper with core being fairly slow as it is and reaper being barely fast enough to kill in a burst but (usually leaving most people PLENTY OF TIME  to react and get away should the be average and have cds avalible) <<< probably where most builds should be in terms of kill speed potential

 

When by comparison you have many other professions and builds who have much higher kill potential burst speed can you really argue that scourge's sustain is too high when you compare its offensive kill speed?

Even rangers have a current build thats going around where a drake tail slaps you for 8k WITH ALMOST NO TELL ANIMATION which is half a necormancers base hp and 70-80% of every other classes base health pool. While the ranger gets to run around with defensive stats and evasion / blocking weapons equipped. 

 

If it really is too high then nerf it but keep in mind of how slow necro's ramp is in comparison and the fact that barrier does not = shroud defense alone 

 

Nah if its bad its bad its not ok in comparison if it currently had a better amulet you would say its just as problematic. 

Scourge was bugged during this time and had about as much ramp up as alot of other condition builds had at that time and people hated it I do remember this yes. Scourge is bad design, Ele is also bad design, Thief is also bad design, about the only good and balanced design is warrior, Ranger is just a more broken and improved warrior that has pet AI and breakstuns that have far too low of a cool down and too much utility traited into them. 

 

Reworked not deleted. The main issue with minion master builds is the trait that reflects conditions placed on the minions or their owner back to their targets even if you are on a power build fighting against a minion master this becomes exceptionally problematic to deal with as you are forced to retreat or face a potentially high condition impairment from even a single skill you throw out. you have to first deal with the AI and cannot brute force your way to the minion master alone in MOST cases. 

Do you really think scourge is strong because of avatar amulet? lol

If you remove every amulet in the game scourge will become even stronger, simply because the problem is clearly with its base values (5k barrier+2k heal on healing skill with 0 healing power) and traits (feed from corruption) and not the scalings. Removing amulet makes no sense in general when you can just reduce scalings, targeting problematic skills without reducing options.

In case you haven't noticed, the stats that benefit the most from amulets are dmg stats, since healing power scalings are ridicolously now nowadays anyway. If you want less sustain complain about evade frames, blocks, mobility and stealth, as aside from necro being able to shroud/barrier everything it's those that actually make fights longer (try and kill an herald, a mirage or a druid with berserker amulet first and then avatar, then tell me how much of a difference there is with 500 more healing power).

[lightstalker.1498]

I only see a problem with the SCOURGE spec in competitive modes and like another thread points out because of the lack of cast times, and zero life force costs. Does scourge not have bonus life force pool? This is odd considering that the first skill is free.
 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

15 hours ago, Kanto.2485 said:

Do you really think scourge is strong because of avatar amulet? lol

If you remove every amulet in the game scourge will become even stronger, simply because the problem is clearly with its base values (5k barrier+2k heal on healing skill with 0 healing power) and traits (feed from corruption) and not the scalings. Removing amulet makes no sense in general when you can just reduce scalings, targeting problematic skills without reducing options.

In case you haven't noticed, the stats that benefit the most from amulets are dmg stats, since healing power scalings are ridicolously now nowadays anyway. If you want less sustain complain about evade frames, blocks, mobility and stealth, as aside from necro being able to shroud/barrier everything it's those that actually make fights longer (try and kill an herald, a mirage or a druid with berserker amulet first and then avatar, then tell me how much of a difference there is with 500 more healing power).

From his ramblings id assume he would just remove all amulets. Consistently proving himself wrong.

Edited July 17, 2021 by McPero.3287

[ZDragon.3046]

On 7/16/2021 at 6:49 PM, Kanto.2485 said:

Do you really think scourge is strong because of avatar amulet? lol

If you remove every amulet in the game scourge will become even stronger, simply because the problem is clearly with its base values (5k barrier+2k heal on healing skill with 0 healing power) and traits (feed from corruption) and not the scalings. Removing amulet makes no sense in general when you can just reduce scalings, targeting problematic skills without reducing options.

You avoided my question with a question but I'll still answer yours.

Do i think scourge is too strong with avatar amulet... offensively no but it does leave only the sustain option if player chooses to go that route and thats provided the player really knows what they are doing. If you are struggling to kill a scourge on avatar amulet then you are just being outplayed there is not much else I can tell you. Overall battle rez potential is strong but not due to stats or particularly scourge in my opinion. There are just not enough methiods provided to finish a downstate player via the use of a skill instead of stomping. Something ive asked for many times is alot of these now no damage elite cc skills is to instantly finishe downed players.

On 7/16/2021 at 6:49 PM, Kanto.2485 said:

In case you haven't noticed, the stats that benefit the most from amulets are dmg stats, since healing power scalings are ridicolously now nowadays anyway. If you want less sustain complain about evade frames, blocks, mobility and stealth, as aside from necro being able to shroud/barrier everything it's those that actually make fights longer (try and kill an herald, a mirage or a druid with berserker amulet first and then avatar, then tell me how much of a difference there is with 500 more healing power).

In case you have not noticed, scourge has, no extra evade frames, blocks, and basically the same mobility as every other form of necro. It also lacks a shroud mechanic to protect itself which is a critical part to how the other 2 elites function both offensively and defensively. It also does not have good utility to make up for that there are no evasive utilities, or blocking utilities, heck they didnt even give the scourge any decent protection utility (looking at punishments only btw) So consider this when you talk about how a 5k barrier +2k heal is too strong. Keep in mind that the shrouds on average have between 13k and 16k max and any incoming damage while its active  is cut by 50% vs Barrier damage not being cut at all.

 

I can kill those other builds when they run zerker and it depends on how skilled the players are at that point which i dont mind at all. Now how about you go try and kill those builds when you do meet the players who choose to not run zerker ammulet and tell me how that works out for you. Whats more likely to end up happening unless you have stupid levels of burst from something like herald or ranger (which are in some cases over-tuned imo) is that you simply wont be able to kill them alone. The will probably out last you provided they have any skill or even kill you simply because they have just enough damage to do it because you chose to run zerker and they didnt. So when a player post up with that on side node you cant take it unles you get a +1 and even then it might take a while depending on their skill level. 

[ZDragon.3046]

On 7/16/2021 at 3:22 PM, McPero.3287 said:

Got nothing more to discuss if you think that minionmancer problem is a trait not the fact that AI plays the game for you. Only minion used ever should be worm as stunbreak port everything else belongs into open world pve builds for bad players.

I'm never for fully erasing builds from a game period it should be avoided and used as a last result only when all other fixes have not addressed player concerns. You see but you don't understand which is a problem in my opinion if you want to go around advocating nerfs and removal of things from a game.

 

If you ask any serious player the issue with minion master is not that its AI The use of AI alone actually has a lot of weaknesss with stealth and targeting control being the main ones.  Like mesmer minion master suffers against any class that can hide itself even if only just for a few seconds leaving the minions/clones/pets/ etc to retreat or run off to some other target you may have hit or that has hit you.

More skilled players will tell you that the issue is that the minions easily rip conditions you place on the caster or on them and drop them back on you so rapidly that ITS JUST FREEE. Basically in a nutshell there is super limited counter play both against power and condition builds which is a perfectly fine argument to have against why it needs to be readjusted. The moment you take the condition reflect out of the equation you have a bunch of wet paper minions that die quickly, dont do much, and a caster with super limited stun breaks in some cases no stun breaks at all.

 

If you cant understand this then perhaps you shouldn't be coming here talking about what should and shrouldnt nerfed.

 

By saying that you dont agree to the use of AI in any form it means that we should also remove ranger pets and mesmer clones and phantoms but if you dont agree to removing those = as you do minon master it means the problem is not AI its something else.

Edited July 18, 2021 by ZDragon.3046

[Kanto.2485]

23 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

In case you have not noticed, scourge has, no extra evade frames, blocks, and basically the same mobility as every other form of necro. It also lacks a shroud mechanic to protect itself which is a critical part to how the other 2 elites function both offensively and defensively. It also does not have good utility to make up for that there are no evasive utilities, or blocking utilities, heck they didnt even give the scourge any decent protection utility (looking at punishments only btw) So consider this when you talk about how a 5k barrier +2k heal is too strong. Keep in mind that the shrouds on average have between 13k and 16k max and any incoming damage while its active  is cut by 50% vs Barrier damage not being cut at all.

I did say scourge was an exception in the post. Core/reaper shroud mechanics, while very strong, are much easier to deal with though. You can wait them out and burst when shroud is on cd and that'll usually get you the kill if the necro got careless and didn't save defensive CDs. With barrier it's not the case because two barrier sources are instant via f3 and f5, and necro also has fear, condi pressure and depending on the situation wurm/spectral armor/trail of anguish to deal with meelee bursts. Most classes can't meelee a scourge at all, hence why its rez skill is so strong despite not being instant, you can put a shade on the downed and spam while transfusing and ressing. it's hard to cleave while you are being feared and corrupted to death, as the scourge gains your own stab that you gave yourself to stomp/cleave. Keep feed from corruption in mind as well when you say scourge has poor access to boons.

 

23 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

I can kill those other builds when they run zerker and it depends on how skilled the players are at that point which i dont mind at all. Now how about you go try and kill those builds when you do meet the players who choose to not run zerker ammulet and tell me how that works out for you. Whats more likely to end up happening unless you have stupid levels of burst from something like herald or ranger (which are in some cases over-tuned imo) is that you simply wont be able to kill them alone. The will probably out last you provided they have any skill or even kill you simply because they have just enough damage to do it because you chose to run zerker and they didnt. So when a player post up with that on side node you cant take it unles you get a +1 and even then it might take a while depending on their skill level. 

The worst you can get is Marauder/Demolisher as a subistitute for Berserker. 500 vitality/toughness don't make the difference between something being killable or not. Mind that dealing less damage also means your opponent won't have to care about defending himself. Defensive stats are not the only mean of taking less damage. If your opponent has to defend himself he will be doing less damage, which is another issure with builds like scourge/weaver. On paper their defensive stats may not seem god tier, but if they deal damage and force you to heal/kite then killing them gets complicated.

Also an avatar scourge can easily 1v1 certain dps classes in the long run, provided a scenario in which you must fight over a point and can't kite/lose time, especially bursty classes with longer-than-average cds.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Kanto.2485

[Lazze.9870]

On 7/16/2021 at 8:52 PM, McPero.3287 said:

ranger shortbow

 

Yes. The weaker version of the renegade shortbow. Nerf that one.

[Arheundel.6451]

26 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Yes. The weaker version of the renegade shortbow. Nerf that one.

I'd settle for a weaker version of renegade shortbow....but current ranger shortbow is utterly useless in all gamemodes, with just bleed application........sad 

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I'd settle for a weaker version of renegade shortbow....but current ranger shortbow is utterly useless in all gamemodes, with just bleed application........sad 

 

It's not useless. But it's boring to play (always was).

[ZDragon.3046]

On 7/19/2021 at 11:39 AM, Kanto.2485 said:

I did say scourge was an exception in the post. Core/reaper shroud mechanics, while very strong, are much easier to deal with though. You can wait them out and burst when shroud is on cd and that'll usually get you the kill if the necro got careless and didn't save defensive CDs. With barrier it's not the case because two barrier sources are instant via f3 and f5, and necro also has fear, condi pressure and depending on the situation wurm/spectral armor/trail of anguish to deal with meelee bursts. Most classes can't meelee a scourge at all, hence why its rez skill is so strong despite not being instant, you can put a shade on the downed and spam while transfusing and ressing. it's hard to cleave while you are being feared and corrupted to death, as the scourge gains your own stab that you gave yourself to stomp/cleave. Keep feed from corruption in mind as well when you say scourge has poor access to boons.

 

This does not change the fact that barrier does a poor job of making up for the shrouds keep in mind shroud cd is 10s and in most cases its easy enough to kite or defend yourself with most of the same tools you called out which are available for the other classes and spectral benefits core and reaper far better than it does scourge. At the end of the day barrier on scourge is hovering around the barely acceptable when you really consider that it its still a class designed to damage soak rather than avoid damage like most other professions through the use of stealth, blocks, extra evades, and invuln to which it has none of.

 

Fear shouldnt be a factor because its necormancers general cc other classes have more options interms of stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. For necro almost all of those options are replaced with fear which in theroy should be easier to handle. Its a condition based cc meaning it has more counterplay than standard effect cc's as condition removals and break stuns will remove it.

 

Making the argument about scourge's boons is questionable here because it means that you are ok with other classes (what you are playing) having access to those boons while doing those things but saying its not ok for scourge even though scourge has to take a grand master trait then effectively hit you with multiple boon eating skills to actually gain them?

 

About the only valid statement here in all of this is rez potential which is high. I do agree with this how ever when you really consider alot of everything you have to wonder if its warranted or not. I would still rather see more skills that finish downed players put into the game or poison being more effective on downed players etc. I think the meta should have never been to cleave down a body from the start people only do that because its faster than channeling the stomp and exposing yourself while doing so. A scourge happens to make doing what you are use to doing difficult and im not sure thats a reason for a nerf on all accounts considering you've pointed at barrier, fear, and rez potential. 

 

On 7/19/2021 at 11:39 AM, Kanto.2485 said:

The worst you can get is Marauder/Demolisher as a subistitute for Berserker. 500 vitality/toughness don't make the difference between something being killable or not. Mind that dealing less damage also means your opponent won't have to care about defending himself. Defensive stats are not the only mean of taking less damage. If your opponent has to defend himself he will be doing less damage, which is another issure with builds like scourge/weaver. On paper their defensive stats may not seem god tier, but if they deal damage and force you to heal/kite then killing them gets complicated.

 

True but those are not the amulets im talking about. Mara and Demo have never been a problem the defensive stats on those are enough to be a slight help but not enough to carry any one on any build. Those are prefect examples of good amulets if you ask me.

 

On 7/19/2021 at 11:39 AM, Kanto.2485 said:

Also an avatar scourge can easily 1v1 certain dps classes in the long run, provided a scenario in which you must fight over a point and can't kite/lose time, especially bursty classes with longer-than-average cds.

This is not a problem as you said in your own words "certain classes" not every class. There will be good and bad matchups based on class and builds being played scourge is certainly weak to certain classes in the game just as it is strong to classes locked in melee only setups for the match. 

If this is a problem we can look at this a few different ways

Necro/ scourge in every match = those same certain classes also in every match but no one calls that out till scourge counters them.

Necro/ scourge in every match = only boon decent boon managing class in the game to which some classes would never have a counter without.

 

[Sindrener.1592]

On 7/16/2021 at 8:51 PM, Math.5123 said:

Thief does have strong teamfight presence as they are the only class to be able to interrupt Glyph. 

who plays ele? saving steal in a fight for signet barely happens at all anymore and even harder with 600 range not to mention you dont even have to signet anymore lmao cus the resses are so good.

 

rewatch tol and tell me how many signets i manage to interrupt as well ty

Edited July 21, 2021 by bluri.2653