Cantha storyline and races

[vandrefalk.6823]

Even if we travel to Cantha in the usual style, in that the Commander (PC) arrives later than the advance parties, surely we'll be entering a part of Tyria (world) which is largely uninhabited by Asura, Norn, Sylvari, Charr, Skritt, Hylek?, Quaggan (unless they also went there, fleeing there from the DSD)?

 

Will Cantha be largely populated by humans - Luxons/Kurzick possibly assimilated and living in small pockets? This also seeing as a former Emperor (Usoku?) crushed/exiled other races in the Empire back when Winds of Change ended, so Tengu, Naga, Oni, Wardens are largely oppressed or extinct? 

 

So when we arrive from Tyria (continent), we'll be a handful of each "old world" races, presumably? Which means the story in Cantha will hardly be one that involves any other old world races than the humans?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

Will Cantha be largely populated by humans - Luxons/Kurzick possibly assimilated and living in small pockets? This also seeing as a former Emperor (Usoku?) crushed/exiled other races in the Empire back when Winds of Change ended, so Tengu, Naga, Oni, Wardens are largely oppressed or extinct?

As for as we know, the Canthan Empire drove off, or wiped out, any and every non human race from Cantha. So the population would be near entirely human.

 

Knowing fiction however, its unlikely their genocide was AS complete as they like to paint it out to be. There will most likely be some small pockets of like Dredge living underground in the Echovald, or some Wardens living deep within the Echovald, from from humans, and other such very small pockets of non-human life.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[ugrakarma.9416]

dont put all your money on this, the writers can easily take this off, with some 'things changed some years ago' without broke the lore.

 

in Elon Riverlands we have multi-racial adventurers searching for ascencion.

 

so the real question whats will be a more interesting narrative, a multi-racial(for some reason) or a human-only Cantha?

[radda.8920]

there will obviously be plenty of different beast given the diversity of the bestiary in cantha, it would be a shame to set so many limits.

so yes we will mainly see humans in kaineng / shing jea but in remote areas like the jade sea or the kurzick forest, there will be lots of different races

Edited July 23, 2021 by radda.8920

[vandrefalk.6823]

Yes, don't get me wrong. I'm not expecting Cantha devoid of other races, but was rather curious how they will make it exciting for Asura/Norn/Charr/Sylvari players who will be unique and in minority - who Canthans may even never have encountered before.

 

Sure, they could bend the lore so that a few arrived there before, but that wouldn't really sit well the story that Cantha has been cut off due to the DSD presence in the ocean, etc.

[Touchme.1097]

1 hour ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

Yes, don't get me wrong. I'm not expecting Cantha devoid of other races, but was rather curious how they will make it exciting for Asura/Norn/Charr/Sylvari players who will be unique and in minority - who Canthans may even never have encountered before.

 

Sure, they could bend the lore so that a few arrived there before, but that wouldn't really sit well the story that Cantha has been cut off due to the DSD presence in the ocean, etc.

Either this or something like Rata Novus, it could be an underground city/refuge where all the other races live together and found refuge from the humans of Cantha

Edited July 24, 2021 by Touchme.1097

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 hours ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

Yes, don't get me wrong. I'm not expecting Cantha devoid of other races, but was rather curious how they will make it exciting for Asura/Norn/Charr/Sylvari players who will be unique and in minority - who Canthans may even never have encountered before.

 

Sure, they could bend the lore so that a few arrived there before, but that wouldn't really sit well the story that Cantha has been cut off due to the DSD presence in the ocean, etc.

Canthans would know of the existence of Charr, and Asura, at least. The Charr wars with the human kingdoms in Tyira would likely remain in historical texts, and the Asura did pop up in Cantha during the events of EoTN. Even if only briefly.

 

As for how they would react. We would probably see the same things we saw in Cantha that we did in Elona. Children and the such going "what are you?" but Tyria is a world where other intelligent races exist, and everyone knows it... so its not really THAT big a deal when they enocounter one.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Poormany.4507]

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Canthans would know of the existence of Charr, and Asura, at least. The Charr wars with the human kingdoms in Tyira would likely remain in historical texts, and the Asura did pop up in Cantha during the events of EoTN. Even if only briefly.

 

As for how they would react. We would probably see the same things we saw in Cantha that we did in Elona. Children and the such going "what are you?" but Tyria is a world where other intelligent races exist, and everyone knows it... so its not really THAT big a deal when they enocounter one.

There were also a few Norn and Asura in Embark Beach in the Battle Isles in GW1 (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Embark_Beach), which also had a Canthan presence, so there was presumably also further contact with them between GW1 and GW2. Sylvari are most likely the only "new" race to Canthans as they've only recently emerged after Cantha went isolationist and Zhaitan rose. I expect/hope Sylvari players to get special dialogue during EoD for this reason (mostly curiosity would be my guess).

 

Interaction-wise, I expect the following:

Humans - Mostly sympathetic, possibly some curiosity/disdain for working with other races.

Sylvari - Mainly curiosity about them and their beliefs as they're entirely new to Canthans. Likely comparisons with the Wardens in Echovald and discussion of the similarities/differences between the two plant-based races.

Norn - Curiosity and possibly some sympathy due to the parallels of the Celestials and Spirits of the Wild concepts.

Charr - Likely hostility, as the Human-Charr treaty in Tyria didn't really carry over to Cantha yet and some would probably still view them as enemies after the Searing and human-Charr conflicts in Kryta/Orr.

Asura - Depends on how much interaction they've had since EotN and whether or not they've been using Asuran technology since then.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Poormany.4507

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

51 minutes ago, Poormany.4507 said:

There were also a few Norn and Asura in Embark Beach in the Battle Isles in GW1 (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Embark_Beach), which also had a Canthan presence, so there was presumably also further contact with them between GW1 and GW2. Sylvari are most likely the only "new" race to Canthans as they've only recently emerged after Cantha went isolationist and Zhaitan rose. I expect/hope Sylvari players to get special dialogue during EoD for this reason (mostly curiosity would be my guess).

 

Interaction-wise, I expect the following:

Humans - Mostly sympathetic, possibly some curiosity/disdain for working with other races.

Sylvari - Mainly curiosity about them and their beliefs as they're entirely new to Canthans. Likely comparisons with the Wardens in Echovald and discussion of the similarities/differences between the two plant-based races.

Norn - Curiosity and possibly some sympathy due to the parallels of the Celestials and Spirits of the Wild concepts.

Charr - Likely hostility, as the Human-Charr treaty in Tyria didn't really carry over to Cantha yet and some would probably still view them as enemies after the Searing and human-Charr conflicts in Kryta/Orr.

Asura - Depends on how much interaction they've had since EotN and whether or not they've been using Asuran technology since then.

I find it very possible that, depending on how much they keep up the parallel to Japan's isolationism period, that the standard response to all races, even non-Canthan humans, will just be simply xenophobia. Not necessarily racism per say, but an inherent distrust of all outsiders one would except from a culture thats been closed off for hundreds of years.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I find it very possible that, depending on how much they keep up the parallel to Japan's isolationism period, that the standard response to all races, even non-Canthan humans, will just be simply xenophobia. Not necessarily racism per say, but an inherent distrust of all outsiders one would except from a culture thats been closed off for hundreds of years.

Depends on how closely they hold to the Zephyrites dialogue from 2014. While the dialogue was a praise for China (forced or no), it was in-lore directed-without-explicit-statement to be about Cantha.

 

We just returned from one of our most culturally colorful ports of call. Sadly, it's a long and arduous journey, so I don't expect we'll be heading back anytime soon.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fade

 

This dialogue focused on describing what visiting the place was like, but other dialogue from FotFW 2014 (such as Marjory commenting on how the new decorations are similar to the stuff her grandfather had from his homeland, which would be Cantha) implies that Cantha was not uninviting to the Zephyrites.

 

In Sea of Sorrows, Cobiah was allowed seemingly free travel through Kaineng's streets while The Indomitable was docked, and this was well after Usoku's isolationist policy. So either the Movement of the World overplayed it, or they've toned down the isolationist bits after the retcons for when contact was lost with Cantha during early development (when The Movement was written, the time of Jormag's and Zhaitan's rising was seemingly switched, with Zhaitan waking up 100 years after GW1 - or just 40 years after Usoku began his campaign - as opposed to 150 years after GW1, a whopping 90 years after Usoku's campaign).

 

Though given Tengu fought through Zhaitan's hoard, either the tengu had been traveling for 90-ish years, or the non-human sentiments were still lodged, they just didn't mind non-Canthan humans so much. Well enough to trade and, in 1327 AE, to be considered a "culturally colorful port of call".

 

I won't be surprised to find out that, given we have records of Canthan sailors washing ashore, that Cantha had been periodically been trying to contact Central Tyria since Zhaitan rose, and efforts began again with the Zephyrites' visit (where they would have learned of Zhaitan's defeat).

 

If the DSD remains hostile per original lore, then they could have been attempting to get assistance from Tyrians, who felled one Elder Dragon (to their knowledge), and the need for help could be enough to reduce any open xenophobia for explaining why non-human Commanders can roam the streets.

 

But I'm just spitballing there. Main point in response was to point out Fade's statement in contrast to The Movement of the World where the whole "massive xenophobic racism for 250 years!" viewpoints originate.

[Legion.4198]

At least the presence of Norn is hinted at in the Sunqua Peak Fractal. The women soldier, Hyo-Sonn, serving among the Imperial troops is described in the letters and she sounds suspiciously similar to a Norn adopting Canthan culture (A Norn Larping as a Samurai classical Oni/Ogre?). The ascended trinket "Totem of the Gorilla" may be a Canthan Spirit of the Wild. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Legion.4198

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Depends on how closely they hold to the Zephyrites dialogue from 2014. While the dialogue was a praise for China (forced or no), it was in-lore directed-without-explicit-statement to be about Cantha.

 

We just returned from one of our most culturally colorful ports of call. Sadly, it's a long and arduous journey, so I don't expect we'll be heading back anytime soon.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fade

 

This dialogue focused on describing what visiting the place was like, but other dialogue from FotFW 2014 (such as Marjory commenting on how the new decorations are similar to the stuff her grandfather had from his homeland, which would be Cantha) implies that Cantha was not uninviting to the Zephyrites.

 

In Sea of Sorrows, Cobiah was allowed seemingly free travel through Kaineng's streets while The Indomitable was docked, and this was well after Usoku's isolationist policy. So either the Movement of the World overplayed it, or they've toned down the isolationist bits after the retcons for when contact was lost with Cantha during early development (when The Movement was written, the time of Jormag's and Zhaitan's rising was seemingly switched, with Zhaitan waking up 100 years after GW1 - or just 40 years after Usoku began his campaign - as opposed to 150 years after GW1, a whopping 90 years after Usoku's campaign).

Well, even during Japan's period of isolationism they understood that there just was some stuff they needed from the outside. So some ships from certain countries were allowed to dock at certain places in Japan. Though they didn't really let them wander too far from the ports in question to limit their cultural interference. Cobiah and the Zephyrites action's aren't necessarily conflicting there.

 

Though, we do have some lore from GW2 itself that conflicts with Cobiah's account. The "Canthan Scholar" in Divinity's Reach states trade with Cantha stopped 200 years ago. Which would make Cobiah's actions impossible. We probably won't know until EoD comes out which they go with here.

 

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I won't be surprised to find out that, given we have records of Canthan sailors washing ashore, that Cantha had been periodically been trying to contact Central Tyria since Zhaitan rose, and efforts began again with the Zephyrites' visit (where they would have learned of Zhaitan's defeat).

 

If the DSD remains hostile per original lore, then they could have been attempting to get assistance from Tyrians, who felled one Elder Dragon (to their knowledge), and the need for help could be enough to reduce any open xenophobia for explaining why non-human Commanders can roam the streets.

Possibly. It would make sense that, if the DSD was attacking them, they would seek help from Tyria if they knew we had already felled one. Though, as you have mentioned before IIRC, the fact that their sailors make it to Tyria at all suggests that their ships get relatively close before being sunk.

 

But we defeated Zhaitan's navy years ago at this point, and the waters are apparently safe enough for people from all over to make it to the Labyrinthine Cliffs for the Fours Winds Festival every year. Not only that, but we take a small boat from Amnoon to Istan, which would require going past Fort Trinity, all the way around Orr, and down the Elonian coast. With the journey not being eventful.

 

One would think if the Canthans can get so close to Tyira that their sailors can wash ashore.... they would have gone way past the dangers of the DSD, and at least one should have arrived safely by now. Not only that, but even in the case of being shipwrecked, one would assume that, if they were sent to Tyira for aid against a dragon, we would have heard that by now.

 

Though, for all we know that could be what kicks off EoD. A Canthan ship finally makes it to Lions Arch and is like "hey guys, so yeah, we need your help BAD!"

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Faridah.8431]

On 7/24/2021 at 4:41 AM, Dondarrion.2748 said:

Yes, don't get me wrong. I'm not expecting Cantha devoid of other races, but was rather curious how they will make it exciting for Asura/Norn/Charr/Sylvari players who will be unique and in minority - who Canthans may even never have encountered before.

 

Sure, they could bend the lore so that a few arrived there before, but that wouldn't really sit well the story that Cantha has been cut off due to the DSD presence in the ocean, etc.

The problem is that the story thus far has pretty much negated what your player character race is outside of some minor dialogue options at certain points in favor of just being the "Pact Commander". 

[ugrakarma.9416]

In the expansion bits about how Canthas perceveid recently Dragons Rise/Fall would be welcome, or if they just far enough to didnt seen anything.

 

How did they knot about Zaithan? they perceived a Tsunamia, or just surviving travelers bringing the news?

The mega-explosions of dragons fall-out, (Mordy etc) did reach them in some way?

 

Also would be interesting, if the  news about commander reached here and him is seen as some sort of "legend".

 

Anyway, sadly, it just can repeat Elona, where Elonians are completely unaware.

[Harak.8397]

I don't expect much if any xenophobic elements at play at all in Cantha. For a Kingdom so closely associated, visually,  with Fantasy China I doubt Anet will take the risk of portraying it in anything but positive terms. Getting banned in China for the sake of pre-established lore is not a stand I expect the bean counters at their publisher to allow.

[Poormany.4507]

1 hour ago, Harak.8397 said:

I don't expect much if any xenophobic elements at play at all in Cantha. For a Kingdom so closely associated, visually,  with Fantasy China I doubt Anet will take the risk of portraying it in anything but positive terms. Getting banned in China for the sake of pre-established lore is not a stand I expect the bean counters at their publisher to allow.

True, I'm not really expecting any large scale xenophobia for the reasons mentioned, but I think there may be a few more xenophobic antagonist characters here and there that we will encounter (likely either remnants of the Ministry of Purity or their descendants). My guess is they'll write it as "the successor governments were more progressive, open to outsiders, and replaced the old xenophobic Ministry of Purity, but some dissidents still hold out" or something to that effect.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

5 hours ago, Harak.8397 said:

I don't expect much if any xenophobic elements at play at all in Cantha. For a Kingdom so closely associated, visually,  with Fantasy China I doubt Anet will take the risk of portraying it in anything but positive terms. Getting banned in China for the sake of pre-established lore is not a stand I expect the bean counters at their publisher to allow.

That's a stretch, especially considering that Cantha is just as much based on Japan and Korea as it is China.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

19 hours ago, Legion.4198 said:

At least the presence of Norn is hinted at in the Sunqua Peak Fractal. The women soldier, Hyo-Sonn, serving among the Imperial troops is described in the letters and she sounds suspiciously similar to a Norn adopting Canthan culture (A Norn Larping as a Samurai classical Oni/Ogre?). The ascended trinket "Totem of the Gorilla" may be a Canthan Spirit of the Wild. 

Tall people exist canonically. There is nothing suggesting Hyo-Sonn is a norn, despite people like WP promoting this as a heavy implication.

Besides, Cantha's past hardcore xenophobia would prevent any norn settling in Cantha, since the norn come from the far north and wouldn't make a solid famous foundation of leaving until Zhaitan's rise with Romke.

Furthermore, there's a big difference between a 7' Canthan (tan skin, slanted eyes) woman and a 9' tall norn (white skin, non-slanted eyes) woman. You're as likely to mistake norn for a Canthan as you are a British for a Chinese.

19 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

But we defeated Zhaitan's navy years ago at this point, and the waters are apparently safe enough for people from all over to make it to the Labyrinthine Cliffs for the Fours Winds Festival every year. Not only that, but we take a small boat from Amnoon to Istan, which would require going past Fort Trinity, all the way around Orr, and down the Elonian coast. With the journey not being eventful.

 

One would think if the Canthans can get so close to Tyira that their sailors can wash ashore.... they would have gone way past the dangers of the DSD, and at least one should have arrived safely by now. Not only that, but even in the case of being shipwrecked, one would assume that, if they were sent to Tyira for aid against a dragon, we would have heard that by now.

 

Though, for all we know that could be what kicks off EoD. A Canthan ship finally makes it to Lions Arch and is like "hey guys, so yeah, we need your help BAD!"

Well we know from Taimi's article in the IBS magazine that Canthan sailors (and Elonian sailors) are indeed washing ashore, just as was mentioned in The Movement of the World. While the Commander makes a trip from Amnoon to Istan largely uneventful, and ships do go from Istan to Gandara, that doesn't mean the presence of DSD minions is non-existent.

Original lore on the DSD heavily implies its presence has always been closer to Central Tyria than to Cantha, so it wouldn't be surprising if the DSD's territory is on the north side of the Battle Isles until relatively recently, and the Canthan ships that we get washing ashore (as few as they are) were in the "close but not out of danger yet" territory.

12 hours ago, Harak.8397 said:

I don't expect much if any xenophobic elements at play at all in Cantha. For a Kingdom so closely associated, visually,  with Fantasy China I doubt Anet will take the risk of portraying it in anything but positive terms. Getting banned in China for the sake of pre-established lore is not a stand I expect the bean counters at their publisher to allow.

This is a large concern of mine and, truth be told, the biggest reason why I always felt it would be best to avoid Cantha.

I mentioned the dialogue during Festival of the Four Winds, but while canon it also comes off as ArenaNet pandering to the Chinese playerbase and, more importantly, government to allow them to sell in China, since the festival also coincided with Guild Wars 2 China's launch.

The description applied to Canthans in the recent language blog post reads the same to me:

Quote

This style was chosen to emphasize the nature of Cantha and its people—wonderfully spiritual and openhearted, but with a great respect for order and structure.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/designing-the-canthan-written-language/

All this feels so very similar to typical Chinese manhua that paints Chinese heritage and culture as this grand infallible thing.

 

And I just feel that will end up being the overall direction ArenaNet takes EoD. That the isolationism and xenophobia, as huge as it is in the lore, will be a barely-mentioned past thing that doesn't resemble modern ChinaCantha.

 

Here's hoping I'm wrong.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

That's a stretch, especially considering that Cantha is just as much based on Japan and Korea as it is China.

It's not that big of a stretch if you consider that alterations were made just to get that China release. They rewrote several parts of the lore, one major one brought to my attention was that they removed all homosexuality from characters - Caithe and Faolain weren't former lovers, they were just typical sylvari siblings and old friends.

 

While Cantha has equal influences from Japan, China, and Korea, people relate it a lot more with China in my experience, and ArenaNet already made daliances for a Chinese release - which they didn't need to bother with (as far as I know) for Japan or Korea. It'd be easier on them to write one plot rather than two, so I can see them doing the same with EoD.

 

IMO there's really three directions ArenaNet can take the lore in relation to the Chinese release:

1. Create a "true lore" and a "careful for the Chinese government" rendition, which takes more time and effort (this could explain why we need to wait longer for EoD than PoF or, it seems, HoT). Which basically means there is no warxenohpbia in ba sing seCantha.

2. Make the game without care in regards to this and go true to lore, which will be a hit-or-miss with the Chinese government depending on their scrutinizing (and if any Chinese players report them).

3. Do what they did to the charr imperators and make an explicit parody of modern times and issues and use EoD to actively call out on the Chinese government, which is bound to get the game banned in China.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's not that big of a stretch if you consider that alterations were made just to get that China release. They rewrote several parts of the lore, one major one brought to my attention was that they removed all homosexuality from characters - Caithe and Faolain weren't former lovers, they were just typical sylvari siblings and old friends.

 

While Cantha has equal influences from Japan, China, and Korea, people relate it a lot more with China in my experience, and ArenaNet already made daliances for a Chinese release - which they didn't need to bother with (as far as I know) for Japan or Korea. It'd be easier on them to write one plot rather than two, so I can see them doing the same with EoD.

 

IMO there's really three directions ArenaNet can take the lore in relation to the Chinese release:

1. Create a "true lore" and a "careful for the Chinese government" rendition, which takes more time and effort (this could explain why we need to wait longer for EoD than PoF or, it seems, HoT). Which basically means there is no warxenohpbia in ba sing seCantha.

2. Make the game without care in regards to this and go true to lore, which will be a hit-or-miss with the Chinese government depending on their scrutinizing (and if any Chinese players report them).

3. Do what they did to the charr imperators and make an explicit parody of modern times and issues and use EoD to actively call out on the Chinese government, which is bound to get the game banned in China.

Well, that isn't quite what I meant regarding regarding Cantha and honestly I didn't take the Chinese release into consideration due to the fact that I couldn't give a kitten about it.  It could include an event where the player character literally licks Winnie the Pooh's butthole while singing about the glories of the revolution for all I care.  I however expect Anet to take the rest of the player base into consideration first and foremost and then make the sanitized Party approved version.  Or skip the sanitized version as you suggest, that works too.

Edited July 26, 2021 by The Greyhawk.9107