Sword 3 and virtuoso

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Just throw it out there, sword 3 is a clone generation that launch an illusion at foe, cripple it then you can swap place with the clone.

 

Curious on how they're going to fix that on virtuoso that has no clones, mesmer launch himself?

[Roda.7468]

Best case scenario is that it just teleports you on first cast.

[Tseison.4659]

To answer your question I think it‘ll just act the same when cast but when you switch spots with your clone, it will automatically convert into a blade, so essentially the same way as our phantasms initiate an attack and then become a blade right after.
 

Also as a food for thought, to compensate, in the Virtuoso trait line, they’ll likely have a trait that generates a stock of blades either via when using “psionic” skills, perhaps if you use a “bladesong F1-F4” you’ll automatically be refunded a blade or two, maybe a slight percentage when attacking a foe grants a stock of a blade, etc…. 
 

the weapon skills do feel a little lack lustre so I’m hoping everyone who tests it out in beta is vocal about the Virtuoso feedback. 
 

Additionally, as a personal opinion, I’m hoping they cut the activation time for the bladesong F1-F4, perhaps add a chain to weapon skills #1 & #3 just so everything doesn’t feel like a long channel and the animations flow. When I think of the dagger, I think of fast animations just like the spellbreaker, thieves and elementalist daggers. 😊

Edited July 28, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I hope somehow it retains the swap aspect of the skill because using sw3 to juke is a favourite of mine. 

[Sodeni.6041]

It's interesting that all clone generation skills will instead give you a blade. The trait that creates a clone on dodge will create a blade, the mirror images utility will create 2 blades, etc.

[mungozen.2379]

To the OP, it's a good question because how we have seen Virtuoso to work, I would expect Sword 3 to send the clone for the cripple and then turn into a phantom dagger, not offering the teleport option.

 

The related question is what happens to skills where 'gain X for each clone' like Ether Feast.  Does this now heal 5x for Virtuoso and 3x for other Mesmer at max?

 

 

[Curunen.8729]

I'm more confused about Mirror Images - the target break part seems completely pointless if all it will do is give 2 blades and stunbreak.

[Zoser.7245]

2 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I'm more confused about Mirror Images - the target break part seems completely pointless if all it will do is give 2 blades and stunbreak.

Do not worry. It is not a specialization for PvP or competitive play. Also not for hardcore pve content that is not supported as in raid. So it doesn't matter. They will do whatever they want and maybe they will make the clone appears first and then turn into a dagger...   🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

At this point, seeing what is going to be, that is irrelevant lol

Edited July 28, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[mungozen.2379]

9 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I'm more confused about Mirror Images - the target break part seems completely pointless if all it will do is give 2 blades and stunbreak.

 

 

lol, having the enemy drop you as a target for what.....a dagger?  I see your point.  I still think that part of this skill is viable.  I don't know how long it takes to re-target but that can add to the counter play aspect of this skill.

 

[Daishi.6027]

1 hour ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I'm more confused about Mirror Images - the target break part seems completely pointless if all it will do is give 2 blades and stunbreak.

I mean the skill didn't always have the target break so at this point it's just an unintended mild buff. In PvP for non-condi builds it's function doesn't change much from what it has always done; create 2 resources.

Besides it's not like clones were anything other than a tab targeting annoyance for decent players in PvP, and a gimmick bads had to learn to deal with. They don't really deceive anyone and are fully in your opponents hands to control. (There  is some utility in body blocking that illusions gave us, but that has been less and less useful as time has gone on, and expansions released. Were clones more sturdy losing them as a mechanic might actually have been a draw back.)

The exception being for mirage Greatsword illusionary ambush shuffle plays, that was fun to fool people with; but that was nerfed on several fronts and is now terrible for 1v1s anyways. 

Idk, I think this is ultimately a net 0 and even with the target drop it simply functions as old mirror images.
---
As for sword 3; it will likely not do anything except make us a dagger and the follow up would interact as though you didn't have an illusion.
Unless A-net put in extra work you might literally be able to swap with the position you casted the skill at allowing for jukes.
But if they didn't put more work in it's far more likely that you'll be able to swap on yourself for the imob.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Curunen.8729]

4 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

I mean the skill didn't always have the target break so at this point it's just an unintended mild buff. In PvP for non-condi builds it's function doesn't change much from what it has always done; create 2 resources.

Besides it's not like clones were anything other than a tab targeting annoyance for decent players in PvP, and a gimmick bads had to learn to deal with. They don't really deceive anyone and are fully in your opponents hands to control. (There  is some utility in body blocking that illusions gave us, but that has been less and less useful as time has gone on, and expansions released. Were clones more sturdy losing them as a mechanic might actually have been a draw back.)

The exception being for mirage Greatsword illusionary ambush shuffle plays, that was fun to fool people with; but that was nerfed on several fronts and is now terrible for 1v1s anyways. 

Idk, I think this is ultimately a net 0 and even with the target drop it simply functions as old mirror images.

Yeah even for initial condi chrono it was just an ammo provider for instant burst inside (or outside) F5, helped by alacrity to not feel like a waste of utility usage.

 

But given they added target break it seems a design inconsistency - either they should remove the target break from the base skill and maybe reduce the cooldown, or give it some alternate function to justify the 35s.

 

Edit - forgot to add, the issue with target break on mirror images anyway is it doesn't reposition you. The only reason IA (with ranged weapon) and axe3 work even for 1-2 seconds is because of the random port, takes a moment for an opponent to retarget you again especially if fortunate terrain. Although for all the complaints about axe3, given it was just melee range people should learn to cleave it out instead of complaining for the cd nerf. But mirror images leaves you in the same location so it's kind of pointless in that sense.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Curunen.8729

[Daishi.6027]

4 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Yeah even for initial condi chrono it was just an ammo provider for instant burst inside (or outside) F5, helped by alacrity to not feel like a waste of utility usage.

 

But given they added target break it seems a design inconsistency - either they should remove the target break from the base skill and maybe reduce the cooldown, or give it some alternate function to justify the 35s.

I mean you get a little bit more out of condi clones, than power clones, but true.

As for "inconsistency" Lmao this is A-net and mesmer we're talking about. This is kind of like the most mild of mild inconsistencies. I would like something nice in exchange; preferably a lower cooldown. I just do not have any level of faith that will happen.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Curunen.8729]

Just now, Daishi.6027 said:

I mean you get a little bit more out of condi clones, than power clones, but true.

As for "inconsistency" Lmao this is A-net and mesmer we're talking about. This is kind of like the most mild of mild inconsistencies. I would like something nice in exchange; preferably a lower cooldown. I just do not have any level of faith that will happen.

Apologies for the late edit. Yeah it will probably stay as some kind of minor annoyance that anyone using mirror images on virtuoso momentarily drops target for opponents, and not be changed for a long time.

 

I reckon best bet is remove target break and lower mirror images cd to like 25s, given the limited funciton it serves.

[Hackuuna.4085]

1 hour ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I'm more confused about Mirror Images - the target break part seems completely pointless if all it will do is give 2 blades and stunbreak.

There's also the issue that we're looking at a 5 blade ammo system now, so 2 blades have (presumably) significantly less value. Though that of course depends on the scaling involved in F1-4 skills.

[Curunen.8729]

Just now, Hackuuna.4085 said:

There's also the issue that we're looking at a 5 blade ammo system now, so 2 blades have (presumably) significantly less value. Though that of course depends on the scaling involved in F1-4 skills.

Good point, the 5 blade resource scaling is interesting given how the rest of the class is designed around building up to 3 "resource stacks". I wonder how they will deal with this.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

Regarding sword 3, they'll probably make it a phantom instead of a clone. It's functionally the same and allows virtuoso to use it properly.

 

31 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Good point, the 5 blade resource scaling is interesting given how the rest of the class is designed around building up to 3 "resource stacks". I wonder how they will deal with this.

 

Maybe a virtuoso trait that doubles your clone/blade generation.

[Xaylin.1860]

34 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Good point, the 5 blade resource scaling is interesting given how the rest of the class is designed around building up to 3 "resource stacks". I wonder how they will deal with this.

Well, we have seen a reverse thing for Warrior and Spellbreaker (Burst Levels/Adrenaline). They are likely to either add additional tiers or just give Virtuoso a different set of effects/numbers for those traits (e.g. like Necro has for Path of Corruption). Now... worst case... It could cap at Level 3 for non-Virtuoso effects. Yikes.

 

For Sword#3, I hope to get the Earthen Rush treatment. This way we could port back to our original spot for x seconds (flip-over) later on. I really hope ANet makes this effort.

[Xaylin.1860]

7 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

Regarding sword 3, they'll probably make it a phantom instead of a clone. It's functionally the same and allows virtuoso to use it properly.

Unlikely due to two reasons:

1. We don't have Phantasms on MH skills.
2. The Phantasm will disappear after its attack, making the Swap very clunky with huge trade-offs.

[Daishi.6027]

49 minutes ago, Hackuuna.4085 said:

There's also the issue that we're looking at a 5 blade ammo system now, so 2 blades have (presumably) significantly less value. Though that of course depends on the scaling involved in F1-4 skills.

Given how the distortion replacement no longer scales the sustain mechanic based on the resource. If the f1 skill is not at minimum the equivalent of a 5 illusion mind wrack, this class is dead on arrival.

The Diversion replacement at first glance seems like it's already a nerf compared to core. you get 1/2 per blade. meaning 2.5 max; which is less than diversion at a higher resource toll, unable to be staggered since it's not a multi hit skill, and avoidable in one evasion/block, without any AoE. HOWEVER: This is offset by what looks like it doing damage. So long as this scales reasonably well it might be okay.

In which case if a mirror image is the same as a normal mirror image (producing 2), it wont cause any issue and will maintain it's effectiveness. If it's altered so it produces 3 blades, and 3 blades is less than a normal mind wrack; rip this class.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Given how the distortion replacement no longer scales the sustain mechanic based on the resource. If the f1 skill is not at minimum the equivalent of a 5 illusion mind wrack, this class is dead on arrival.

The Diversion replacement at first glance seems like it's already a nerf compared to core. you get 1/2 per blade. meaning 2.5 max; which is less than diversion at a higher resource toll, unable to be staggered since it's not a multi hit skill, and avoidable in one evasion/block, without any AoE. HOWEVER: This is offset by what looks like it doing damage. So long as this scales reasonably well it might be okay.

In which case if a mirror image is effectively the same as a normal mirror image it wont cause any issue. If it's altered so it produces 3 blades, and 3 blades is less than a normal mind wrack; rip this class.

The numbers on the video might be just for show, but 2 blade f1 dealt like 6k, so kind of the equivalent of 2 clone f1.

On the other hand a 3blade f2 dealt 9k which is leaps more than 3 clone f2.

It needs to be higher than the clone shatter counterpart because the immense cast time sitting duck projectile trash blade f's currently are (in case ANerf decides to maintain that).
 

[Durzlla.6295]

My guess is we will throw a dagger at the target, and if it hits we can teleport to the target, kinda like that ele dagger skill.

[Daishi.6027]

1 minute ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The numbers on the video might be just for show, but 2 blade f1 dealt like 6k, so kind of the equivalent of 2 clone f1.

On the other hand a 3blade f2 dealt 9k which is leaps more than 3 clone f2.

It needs to be higher than the clone shatter counterpart because the immense cast time sitting duck projectile trash blade f's currently are (in case ANerf decides to maintain that).
 

I mean if I'm being honest I don't trust any of the numbers. I have no idea what game version this was on to show case, and how things will be tweaked for when players actually get it. Plus without speculation we have no idea the game mode either and it explicitly states it will change depending on the game mode.

Let's say best case scenario this is PvP and that was some new set up arena for PvP lobby. (probably isn't but assuming best case) high risk/high reward with massive damage numbers that look like they are fairly avoidable. We still cannot trust ANYTHING A-net does, Mirage had ample testing, they changed the evasion times and the speed to match it. But then took away the extended evasion time because "oop players learned to use it"? or some garbage? and that was before cutting the endurance bar in half.

And a point I often make is that even with the extended durations, and prior to ALL OF THE OTHER nerfs... Mirage at that time still had less access to evasion than thief (if a tiny amount of more up time); yet they butchered it anyways. No matter how much spit and polish they try to give this class for release I have massive doubt.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 minute ago, Daishi.6027 said:

I mean if I'm being honest I don't trust any of the numbers. I have no idea what game version this was on to show case, and how things will be tweaked for when players actually get it. Plus without speculation we have no idea the game mode either and it explicitly states it will change depending on the game mode.

Let's say best case scenario this is PvP and that was some new set up arena for PvP lobby. (probably isn't but assuming best case) high risk/high reward with massive damage numbers that look like they are fairly avoidable. We still cannot trust ANYTHING A-net does, Mirage had ample testing, they changed the evasion times and the speed to match it. But then took away the extended evasion time because "oop players learned to use it"? or some garbage? and that was before cutting the endurance bar in half.

And a point I often make is that even with the extended durations, and prior to ALL OF THE OTHER nerfs... Mirage at that time still had less access to evasion than thief (if a tiny amount of more up time); yet they butchered it anyways. No matter how much spit and polish they try to give this class for release I have massive doubt.

I don't trust them either and I'm pretty sure they'll get toned down before release.
Pretty sure the numbers will be similar to core even if the new shatters are way worse due to what I said above.

Mirage was nerfed but core was gutted on the process too.
Even if the new spec is trash, people will still complain and get it nerfed into oblivion like they did with chrono and mirage.
 

[Curunen.8729]

I think it's fair to say the spec will get a heavy dose of the nerf bat at some point, if it happens to do to much damage or happens to have too much sustain etc.

 

It'll probably have broken numbers on launch for sales, but nothing that good would ever last.

 

Given how people panicked at various aspects of mirage at launch (and even chrono tbh), and how those things were subsequently smacked down in strange often illogical ways.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

6 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I think it's fair to say the spec will get a heavy dose of the nerf bat at some point, if it happens to do to much damage or happens to have too much sustain etc.

 

It'll probably have broken numbers on launch for sales, but nothing that good would ever last.

 

Given how people panicked at various aspects of mirage at launch (and even chrono tbh), and how those things were subsequently smacked down in strange often illogical ways.

If the numbers on the show are the current numbers, it will get a deserved nerf, some of those are astonishingly high.
Still they'll have to fix the new shatters, either give them instant cast, or some form of cc to ease the burst and evade time while casting so we won't be sitting duck.
But knowing ANerf I doubt it...

Edited July 28, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735
typo