E-spec legend speculation

[Mediahead.3542]

There's been a lot of speculation about what the next e-spec's weapon will be in EoD, but personally I'm curious about what legend will be associated with the upcoming e-spec.  Now I've posted my thoughts on this before but to reiterate, I would want them to channel either Oola or Zinn (ideally I'd like to channel both golemancers at once and have them occasionally bicker at each other, but I can settle for one or the other if it comes to that).  Part of my reasoning for this is mainly cuz I have an asura rev that I made WAY back when HoT launched and I feel it's high time we had an asura legend included. (And based on how one of the new e-spec icons look suspiciously like a golem, we might just get it. But I am prepared to be proven wrong just in case)

 

So what legend do you guys think we'll see rhis time around? 

[Kodama.6453]

I personally think that the next elite spec for rev will be ritualist, which makes me think that the next legend might be Master Togo.

 

I hope so, since I enjoyed him as a character in GW1.

[Raknar.4735]

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Leviathan

[Kodama.6453]

1 minute ago, Raknar.4735 said:

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Leviathan

Is this one actually conscious?

 

I didn't encounter it personally in gw1, but It strikes me as just a mindless beast.

[Raknar.4735]

9 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Is this one actually conscious?

 

I didn't encounter it personally in gw1, but It strikes me as just a mindless beast.

 

I don't think a legend needs consciousness for the Mists to create an echo. It just needs to leave an impression.

After all, the Jade Maw certainly did leave one.

 

And checking the icon most likely to be the revenant one does seem to have mandibles, or at least something similiar in my eye.

[Kodama.6453]

21 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

 

I don't think a legend needs consciousness for the Mists to create an echo. It just needs to leave an impression.

After all, the Jade Maw certainly did leave one.

 

And checking the icon most likely to be the revenant one does seem to have mandibles, or at least something similiar in my eye.

One of the fun aspects of the revenant are the conversations you have with your active legends, tho.

 

If the legend is an unconscious beast, then this is not possible and it would also take away some opportunity for some fun lore bits about Cantha.

 

Not saying it is ruled out, but I personally think that it would be better to have a legend you can actually have a conversation with.

[Raknar.4735]

22 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

One of the fun aspects of the revenant are the conversations you have with your active legends, tho.

 

If the legend is an unconscious beast, then this is not possible and it would also take away some opportunity for some fun lore bits about Cantha.

 

Not saying it is ruled out, but I personally think that it would be better to have a legend you can actually have a conversation with.

 

Most of the current legend lines have dissapointed me and barely tell any lore, so having a centipede screech into my ear wouldn't be so different from having Glint roaring. We also don't know if it is unconscious, Leviathan Mind enemies were a thing.

 

I'd also rather not want some random lore tidbits like: Oh, see those Tengu? I united them! That peace fell apart quickly. Everything I've done was in vain!

Or someone asking me if I've learned about the limitations of my strength.

 

It would be more interesting to me to have some new race instead of just another canthan human who's endgame was dying to the first one, Shiro. Shiro himself could already fill the role of the one telling the interesting lorebits with new voicelines. He did ask about Cantha and the Empire, after all. I mostly see Togo ending up as some ghost npc still walking around Tahnnakai Temple.

 

At least the icon seems to resemble a crawly thing more than a human ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited July 30, 2021 by Raknar.4735

[Thornwolf.9721]

47 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

 

Most of the current legend lines have dissapointed me and barely tell any lore, so having a centipede screech into my ear wouldn't be so different from having Glint roaring. We also don't know if it is unconscious, Leviathan Mind enemies were a thing.

 

I'd also rather not want some random lore tidbits like: Oh, see those Tengu? I united them! That peace fell apart quickly. Everything I've done was in vain!

Or someone asking me if I've learned about the limitations of my strength.

 

It would be more interesting to me to have some new race instead of just another canthan human who's endgame was dying to the first one, Shiro. Shiro himself could already fill the role of the one telling the interesting lorebits with new voicelines. He did ask about Cantha and the Empire, after all. I mostly see Togo ending up as some ghost npc still walking around Tahnnakai Temple.

 

At least the icon seems to resemble a crawly thing more than a human ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The icon has what looks like the guild wars 1 ritualist Icon in the center of it. So I might as well just delete my rev at this point because clearly they are gonna give into the "MAH RITUALIST" bull which is already covered by the renegade. Whatever... shouldn't of expected anything I'd like lol.

[Raknar.4735]

14 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

The icon has what looks like the guild wars 1 ritualist Icon in the center of it. So I might as well just delete my rev at this point because clearly they are gonna give into the "MAH RITUALIST" bull which is already covered by the renegade. Whatever... shouldn't of expected anything I'd like lol.

 

I honestly don't see the GW1 Ritualist symbol in it.

It just looks like the base Revenant one https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revenant to me, just without the vertical bottom part and the eye inverted. And then some mandibles of course.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Raknar.4735

[Mediahead.3542]

1 hour ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

The icon has what looks like the guild wars 1 ritualist Icon in the center of it. So I might as well just delete my rev at this point because clearly they are gonna give into the "MAH RITUALIST" bull which is already covered by the renegade. Whatever... shouldn't of expected anything I'd like lol.

 

I don't believe that is case as by simply looking at the icons for both the herald and renegade (as well as the rest of the e-pecs for that matter) shows that there is no consistent pattern for these professions. It is literally anyone's guess which one goes where, especially my own. My point is, odds are very good that the one that looks like a rev isn't for the rev at all

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I personally think that the next elite spec for rev will be ritualist, which makes me think that the next legend might be Master Togo.

 

I hope so, since I enjoyed him as a character in GW1.

Kalla was the ritualist substitute legend with spirits. They just gave it a charr flavour because at the time they didn't know if they were going back to Cantha. Revenant needs another ritualist wannabe elite spec like engineer needs another power melee elite spec.

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Kalla was the ritualist substitute legend with spirits. They just gave it a charr flavour because at the time they didn't know if they were going back to Cantha. Revenant needs another ritualist wannabe elite spec like engineer needs another power melee elite spec.

Spirits were not the only mechanic of the ritualist in gw1. They could possibly focus on the urn or weapon spell mechanic this time.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Thund.2795]

I really want an evil legend for rev, with dark/death knight vibes. At the moment we've only two, Shiro and Mallyx so I think it's time to include a new one.

 

I was thinking of Kanaxai for a Legendary Nightmare Stance, but the Leviathan could be interesting. I don't know what other cantha-related enemies could be legends but based on what Arenanet said in the live stream, we have to exclude other non-cantha legends.

[draxynnic.3719]

17 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Spirits were not the only mechanic of the ritualist in gw1. They could possibly focus on the urn or weapon spellmmechanic this time.

How would that work? Weapon spells and urns were both, essentially, buff mechanics designed so that you could only have one of that type of buff at once. Which worked for GW1 ritualists where they were intended to be used on a bar that also contained spirits and regular spells, but not on revenant where the skills associated with a legend all come as one package.

 

And if they did somehow pull it off, what then? Will people be demanding whichever of the other mechanic wasn't used to come? Will the people who just want ritualist back really be happy if it comes in multiple slices that can never be combined with each other, but always having to be combined with a core revenant legend of which 3/4 are designed for melee?

 

I mean, let's be real here:

 

First, Spirits WERE the main thing ritualists were about. That was their defining feature. Urns and weapon spells were mostly just their way of buffing themselves and applying direct buffs to others. They had a unique feature of only being able to have one each on a particular target, but this was probably done to encourage ritualists to only use a couple of them in order to leave room on their bar for spirits. There is no scope for a revenant legend to feel more like a ritualist than Kalla already does without using spirits again.

 

Second, we already have a profession that was intended to fulfil the role of ritualist. Ritualist was made in the first place as a means to incorporate something like the TF engineer playstyle into a lower-tech setting. Now we have actual engineers. Turrets may have sucked for a long time, but they're what was supposed to replace spirits. Arguably, you could say the same as gyros. Weapon kits are pretty much GW2's urns: something that replaces your weapon that changes the way to fight. They also have means of buffing allies - sure, weapon spells per se aren't a thing any more, but everything is boons in GW2 with a few specific exceptions.

 

Third, revenants are not ritualists, and were never intended to be. If we still had the archives of pre-HoT discussions, I'd show you threads which were asking for the dervish playstyle to be brought back, with the suggestion that as a race-agnostic alternative to god avatars, they could instead draw on powerful spirits in the Mists to empower themselves. That's basically revenant in a nutshell. They might have a common element in drawing from the Mists, but they're not the same thing. They're not even as close as guardians and monks, since guardians are pretty explicitly using the same magic in a different way. Revenants, on the other hand, instead of summoning lots of smaller spirits in the forms of urns, weapon spells, and bound spirits, instead channel powerful legendary echoes through their own bodies. Except when channelling Kalla, but that's a case of using one powerful echo as a conduit through which to access lesser echoes. It's not revenant SOP.

 

Fourth, revenants will never be ritualists. I alluded to this in the preamble, but like it or not, the core just isn't set up for it. Ritualist was a profession about picking out individual skills with different themes to synergise with one another - revenant chooses all of its skills in blocks. We could have ritualist-wannabe elite specialisations until the game goes into maintenance, but they'll always still be bound to the core traits and at least one core legend unless the elite spec breaks down the revenant mechanics so much that it might as well be attached to another profession to begin with . If anything, for the people who really want to play ritualist, I can see more ritualist-themed revenant legends frustrating them, since it'd eventually mean that all the things they're looking for are there, but can never be combined into a single build or playstyle, and will never offer the degree of customisability that the GW1 ritualist had.

 

In conclusion, revenant is its own thing, not a ritualist substitute. The 'channel a legend' aspect offers so many opportunities to do things that just wouldn't fit for any other profession. We've got legends that channels a dragon, a demon, and the racial consciousness of the dwarf race through the medium of their last king. Even the relatively prosaic Shiro has aspects of representing the power of the Jade Wind as much as Shiro himself. I want to see more legends that embody nonhumanoid beings and events that shaped entire cultures and continents, not "here's a guy with a profession that was common at the time but isn't playable in GW2, and who's main accomplishments were to forge a peace agreement that barely lasted a generation and to fight against one of the other legends only to die before the end". Last thing I want to see is revenant's potential being wasted through a string of ritualist-wannabe elite specialisations because none of them quite manage to be ritualist enough to appease the crowd calling for them. That'd be like continuing to make power melee engineer elite specialisations because there are people for whom all the previous ones weren't quite what they wanted.

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

How would that work? Weapon spells and urns were both, essentially, buff mechanics designed so that you could only have one of that type of buff at once. Which worked for GW1 ritualists where they were intended to be used on a bar that also contained spirits and regular spells, but not on revenant where the skills associated with a legend all come as one package.

There are ways to implement fitting stuff, for example, weapon spells could get easily interpreted through the venom system from the thief for this game.

Urns could get interpreted as stances, getting rid of the bundle completely and just infusing yourself with the spirit of these cultural figures which were referenced in the urn skills back then.

 

I think there are ways to work some more with ritualist skills.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And if they did somehow pull it off, what then? Will people be demanding whichever of the other mechanic wasn't used to come? Will the people who just want ritualist back really be happy if it comes in multiple slices that can never be combined with each other, but always having to be combined with a core revenant legend of which 3/4 are designed for melee?

Ritualist got implemented when it comes to gameplay on multiple occasions. Engineer, for example, is stated by Anet to be the gameplay follow up from the ritualist. Their spirits got redesigned as the turrets, the urn bundles reinvented as the kits (since bundles would disable all your weapon skills, which would be terrible for GW2 fighting system, so they made the bundles replace weapon skills instead).

 

What I think people are really missing is not the general gameplay of the ritualist.... I have been a ritualist main in GW1 and main engineer now, as said, the gameplay is translated in that class mostly (and I enjoy the steampunk thematic).

 

Why I really want to see a ritualist spec is not because of gameplay, but because of thematic.

These guys using mist magic for lightning strikes, put spells on weapons to enhance the attacks of their allies, summon ghosts and the urns of legendary Canthan heroes.... This is what makes it interesting as an elite spec for me.

 

Which is also the explanation why I am not satisfied with Kalla and renegade.... because it was borring gameplay from ritualist, but what I am missing is the thematic, which is totally amiss in renegade.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

First, Spirits WERE the main thing ritualists were about. That was their defining feature. Urns and weapon spells were mostly just their way of buffing themselves and applying direct buffs to others. They had a unique feature of only being able to have one each on a particular target, but this was probably done to encourage ritualists to only use a couple of them in order to leave room on their bar for spirits. There is no scope for a revenant legend to feel more like a ritualist than Kalla already does without using spirits again.

As mentioned, I want the thematic, not the gameplay 1 to 1. Give me these guys who teach us the old Canthan traditions of the ritualists to communicate with the mists. How to channel lightning and magical powers to enchant stuff with it. Maybe they could even forge spirits into protective armor, idk.

 

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Second, we already have a profession that was intended to fulfil the role of ritualist. Ritualist was made in the first place as a means to incorporate something like the TF engineer playstyle into a lower-tech setting. Now we have actual engineers. Turrets may have sucked for a long time, but they're what was supposed to replace spirits. Arguably, you could say the same as gyros. Weapon kits are pretty much GW2's urns: something that replaces your weapon that changes the way to fight. They also have means of buffing allies - sure, weapon spells per se aren't a thing any more, but everything is boons in GW2 with a few specific exceptions.

I mentioned this before, yes, all of this is reimplemented in engineer when it comes to gameplay. But once again, I want the thematic.

 

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Third, revenants are not ritualists, and were never intended to be. If we still had the archives of pre-HoT discussions, I'd show you threads which were asking for the dervish playstyle to be brought back, with the suggestion that as a race-agnostic alternative to god avatars, they could instead draw on powerful spirits in the Mists to empower themselves. That's basically revenant in a nutshell. They might have a common element in drawing from the Mists, but they're not the same thing. They're not even as close as guardians and monks, since guardians are pretty explicitly using the same magic in a different way. Revenants, on the other hand, instead of summoning lots of smaller spirits in the forms of urns, weapon spells, and bound spirits, instead channel powerful legendary echoes through their own bodies. Except when channelling Kalla, but that's a case of using one powerful echo as a conduit through which to access lesser echoes. It's not revenant SOP.

Revenants are not ritualists, correct. But they are thematically the closest to ritualist in our roster. Both deal with mist magic. Both even blindfold themselves to improve their ability to communicate with the mists.

 

So if any class is getting the ritualist thematic added to them, then it is revenant. Revenants are not ritualists.... just like a guardian is not a firebrand. But revenants have quite the potential to become ritualists thematically.

Especially if we consider that they told us that all elite specs are deeply intertwined with the Canthan lore. I think ritualist is the best way to implement revenants within Canthan lore.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

 

Fourth, revenants will never be ritualists. I alluded to this in the preamble, but like it or not, the core just isn't set up for it. Ritualist was a profession about picking out individual skills with different themes to synergise with one another - revenant chooses all of its skills in blocks. We could have ritualist-wannabe elite specialisations until the game goes into maintenance, but they'll always still be bound to the core traits and at least one core legend unless the elite spec breaks down the revenant mechanics so much that it might as well be attached to another profession to begin with . If anything, for the people who really want to play ritualist, I can see more ritualist-themed revenant legends frustrating them, since it'd eventually mean that all the things they're looking for are there, but can never be combined into a single build or playstyle, and will never offer the degree of customisability that the GW1 ritualist had.

You focus alot on gameplay once again with the skills here.

As said, I want a spec which is themed for ritualist. Which didn't happen until now, Kalla is not thematically the same like a ritualist, not even close. So you can't say that we get "more" ritualist themed elite specs, if not a single elite spec to this point actually used the thematic of ritualist.

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In conclusion, revenant is its own thing, not a ritualist substitute. The 'channel a legend' aspect offers so many opportunities to do things that just wouldn't fit for any other profession. We've got legends that channels a dragon, a demon, and the racial consciousness of the dwarf race through the medium of their last king. Even the relatively prosaic Shiro has aspects of representing the power of the Jade Wind as much as Shiro himself. I want to see more legends that embody nonhumanoid beings and events that shaped entire cultures and continents, not "here's a guy with a profession that was common at the time but isn't playable in GW2, and who's main accomplishments were to forge a peace agreement that barely lasted a generation and to fight against one of the other legends only to die before the end". Last thing I want to see is revenant's potential being wasted through a string of ritualist-wannabe elite specialisations because none of them quite manage to be ritualist enough to appease the crowd calling for them. That'd be like continuing to make power melee engineer elite specialisations because there are people for whom all the previous ones weren't quite what they wanted.

I think you are a bit underselling Master Togo's impact here. He literally got the title "Protector of Cantha", he managed to unite the Luxon and the Kurzick. He directly opposed Shiro, the biggest threat for the Canthan empire.

 

Yes, he got killed. But why is that belittling what he did in your eyes?

And his relationship with Shiro could also be quite interesting, maybe they could even build in interactions between them if you pick both, Shiro and Master Togo, as your legends.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Not a gw1 player but tldr revenant seems closer to dervish channeling 'legends' instead of god powers. Ritualist sounds like a necro/guardian so no idea where you people came from. Bc mist magic? Well then.. you already have butchered Kalla

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

There are ways to implement fitting stuff, for example, weapon spells could get easily interpreted through the venom system from the thief for this game.

So, are we talking an entire bar full of venom-like utilities, or just one token weapon spell on a more diverse bar?

 

I can see problems with either. An entire legend devoted to just buffing your allies around you... that's basically just Glint by another mechanic. And not far off Kalla. I think the one thing I've seen the general revenant community agree on is that it needs another elite specialisation with a theme of buffing allies around you like... well, like engineer needs another melee power spec.

 

And if it's just one, then it's not really a theme, it's just an individual skill. And I'm sure people will be disappointed that it'd be the ONLY one they get to use.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Urns could get interpreted as stances, getting rid of the bundle completely and just infusing yourself with the spirit of these cultural figures which were referenced in the urn skills back then.

Okay, so we have a legend based around... channelling lots of little spirits. Riveting. 

 

Are we talking about something kit-like here? A legend that behaves like a 5-kit engineer? On a profession that's also going to have a legend swap and a weaponswap? That's a LOT of skills on one build. Might even put full conjurer elementalist to shame.

 

Or are they just going to be self-buffs rather than replacing your weapon skills? Well, first, that's not urns. Second, now we're just talking about a more selfish Glint.

Unless there's only one on the bar, in which case, again, that's not a theme. Every revenant elite has at least one upkeep skill as it is.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

What I think people are really missing is not the general gameplay of the ritualist.... I have been a ritualist main in GW1 and main engineer now, as said, the gameplay is translated in that class mostly (and I enjoy the steampunk thematic).

 

Why I really want to see a ritualist spec is not because of gameplay, but because of thematic.

These guys using mist magic for lightning strikes, put spells on weapons to enhance the attacks of their allies, summon ghosts and the urns of legendary Canthan heroes.... This is what makes it interesting as an elite spec for me.

Most of which sounds like support to me, and after Glint and Kalla, revenant needs another elite spec designed around support like Engineer needs another power melee spec. And Kalla already summons ghosts that buff the attacks of your allies, while the legend system itself is channeling the spirits of heroes, so it basically comes down to the thing that's really missing being the lightning attacks. So... ranged power weapon? Of course, then it wouldn't be able to be used with Kalla, so I guess it comes back to my point about the theme being chopped up into slices that can never be combined into one build.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

 

Which is also the explanation why I am not satisfied with Kalla and renegade.... because it was borring gameplay from ritualist, but what I am missing is the thematic, which is totally amiss in renegade.

And what, precisely, is boring about it?

Is it because, instead of the full versatility and customisability that ritualist (and engineer) could bring, you're limited to a spirit spammer that only generates spirits outside of weapon and profession mechanic skills? Is it because you're still most likely reverting to melee with your other legend? Is it, perhaps, because it's trying to add ritualist to a profession which is designed in a completely different way?

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

As mentioned, I want the thematic, not the gameplay 1 to 1. Give me these guys who teach us the old Canthan traditions of the ritualists to communicate with the mists. How to channel lightning and magical powers to enchant stuff with it. Maybe they could even forge spirits into protective armor, idk.

The theme... can be applied to another profession. Necromancer seems to be out - for End of Dragons, anyway (but hey, maybe ritualist has evolved to use pistols now?) - but did you know that guardian has been explicitly stated to draw on ritualist teachings? Of course, guardians don't really want nor need another supportive elite spec at all. But seriously, applying ritualist to pretty much any other profession would work better than awkwardly bolting it onto revenant. Again. And again. Because if they attach it to some other profession, they can look at what the core profession already brings to the table that was similar to ritualist, and use the elite specialisation to fill in the gaps. Maybe ranger could have a mist lightning weapon and those venom-style weapon spells you referred to on top of the spirits they already summon - that way, players could have six weapon spell style skills to choose from, and can mix them in with other ranger abilities.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Revenants are not ritualists, correct. But they are thematically the closest to ritualist in our roster. Both deal with mist magic. Both even blindfold themselves to improve their ability to communicate with the mists.

But they explicitly engage with the Mists in a very different way.

 

Other professions also have thematic links. Necromancers in GW2 already deal more with the spirit world and the Mists in general than GW1 necromancers did - it hasn't been explicitly said, but absorbing some ritualist skills would explain that. Guardian is explicitly stated to have done so in Sea of Sorrows. Ranger spirit summoning was compared to ritualists in the Factions manual. And those are just the most obvious.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

 

So if any class is getting the ritualist thematic added to them, then it is revenant. Revenants are not ritualists.... just like a guardian is not a firebrand. But revenants have quite the potential to become ritualists thematically.

But mechanically, they're just aren't suited for it. Kalla is the closest that they're ever likely to get. 

 

And as I said above... there are other professions that not only could absorb ritualist, and be far closer to the original ritualist mechanically, but where in at least one case it is explicitly part of canon that they've already started.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Especially if we consider that they told us that all elite specs are deeply intertwined with the Canthan lore. I think ritualist is the best way to implement revenants within Canthan lore.

You focus alot on gameplay once again with the skills here.

I'm also focusing on the potential that you're looking to sacrifice on the altar of Trying To Make Revenant Into Ritualist, Take Two.

 

Is a guy who had a playable profession that theoretically could be picked up by anybody if they found a suitable teacher really the most interesting thing to make a legend out of? Even if we limit ourselves to Cantha? What about Zhu Hanuku? The Leviathan, perhaps? Urgoz and Kanaxai are still humanoid, but would probably still be more interesting than someone who was just a particularly skilled member of a (formerly) playable profession. Or maybe we could get one of the other Envoys and find out what their deal was. Perhaps even getting in deep with some of the background stories and pulling something out of those they can make a unique playstyle from.

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

As said, I want a spec which is themed for ritualist. Which didn't happen until now, Kalla is not thematically the same like a ritualist, not even close. So you can't say that we get "more" ritualist themed elite specs, if not a single elite spec to this point actually used the thematic of ritualist.

I think you are a bit underselling Master Togo's impact here. He literally got the title "Protector of Cantha", he managed to unite the Luxon and the Kurzick. He directly opposed Shiro, the biggest threat for the Canthan empire.

 

Yes, he got killed. But why is that belittling what he did in your eyes?

And his relationship with Shiro could also be quite interesting, maybe they could even build in interactions between them if you pick both, Shiro and Master Togo, as your legends.

Being killed isn't the belittling thing.

 

It's the fact that his main claim to fame is helping to defeat someone else (commenting on him getting killed is just reinforcing that he wasn't even there to stop Shiro himself - he was already dead when it happened). Shiro is the one that had the impact on history that left an echo in the Mists - Togo's most impressive achievement, the thing that earned him entry into Tahnnakai Temple, is simply a part of Shiro's story. It's not even where it ended, since we killed Shiro again in the Realm of Torment.

 

Apart from taking part in the campaign against Shiro, Togo didn't really achieve much, and what he did achieve didn't last. Unifying the Kurzicks and Luxons was 1) a group effort, not Togo alone, 2) part of the anti-Shiro campaign and 3) didn't last much after Shiro's death. The tengu peace is really the biggest thing that Togo achieved that isn't part of Shiro's story, and we know how that worked it - it merely delayed the inevitable, and if any legend comes out of that, it should be the tengu that got the Canthan tengu out and founded the Dominion of Winds.

 

Something to keep in mind here is that when Stronghold was introduced, it was stated that Turai Ossa and Nika were 'merely' heroes in that mode rather than revenant legends because they just didn't have the stature to be a revenant legend. I think Togo is in the same boat. He's not nothing, but I don't think he's as significant as Turai Ossa either.

 

And just to reinforce a point that came up a couple of times in this discussion:

 

Ritualist was, by nature, a support profession. Revenant has already had two support-oriented elite specialisations. They need a third one like Engineer needs a third melee power elite specialisation.

[Dadnir.5038]

1st symbol: the legend could be an assassin specialized in hidden weapon or throwing knives. Nika or her descendant maybe.

2nd symbol: the legend could be an animal totem from cantha with skills similar to norn's racial skills and animal summon on F skills.

3rd symbol: the legend could be a weaponmaster (a tengu warrior for example) and the e-spec could focus on summoning the weapons of the legend you channel.

4th symbol: the legend could be a phoenix and the spec could focus on rallying allies and burning foes.

5th symbol: the legend could be an oni and the mechanism could allow the revenant to summon the spirit of the legend channeled.

6th symbol: the legend could be a mantid as animal totem same as 2nd symbol but summon insects on F skills.

7th symbol: the legend could be a sharpshooter asura, the mechanism of the spec could be a drone that you can command with F skills for some offensive effects (ranger feel and a bit of scrapper design but better).

8th symbol: the legend could be an asura artificer using a rune arm instead of the drone imagined for the 7th symbol.

9th symbol: the legend could be sauron from the the lord of the rings, F2 could give you stealth and blur... Legend skills would create rings with a heavy focus on control...

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

So, are we talking an entire bar full of venom-like utilities, or just one token weapon spell on a more diverse bar?

 

I can see problems with either. An entire legend devoted to just buffing your allies around you... that's basically just Glint by another mechanic. And not far off Kalla. I think the one thing I've seen the general revenant community agree on is that it needs another elite specialisation with a theme of buffing allies around you like... well, like engineer needs another melee power spec.

 

And if it's just one, then it's not really a theme, it's just an individual skill. And I'm sure people will be disappointed that it'd be the ONLY one they get to use.

Okay, so we have a legend based around... channelling lots of little spirits. Riveting.

These were just examples, it doesn't have to be just that, I was just spitting some examples of skills from ritualist which could get translated into revenant besides the ghost.

 

And about the whole problem you mention that it's either just a single weapon spell or an entire bar.... how about it is neither of these by force?

 

We know that Anet is willing to break design concepts of classes this time around. They directly said so themselves.

So maybe, instead of a ritualist being forced to take the entire bar of specific legends... they could have some wiggle room?

We are talking about ritualist, the one profession which has the deepest connection to the mist from the first game. In all these years, they could have even improved their techniques.

 

I would not say it is entirely out of the question that they managed to weave multiple legendary spirits at the same time.

So maybe this problem is solved exactly for the ritualist spec and it allows revenants to use skills from more than 2 legends, which they can mix together (maybe with a cost, like higher energy cost for skills not associated with your chosen main legends?).

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Okay, so we have a legend based around... channelling lots of little spirits. Riveting. 

 

Are we talking about something kit-like here? A legend that behaves like a 5-kit engineer? On a profession that's also going to have a legend swap and a weaponswap? That's a LOT of skills on one build. Might even put full conjurer elementalist to shame.

 

Or are they just going to be self-buffs rather than replacing your weapon skills? Well, first, that's not urns. Second, now we're just talking about a more selfish Glint.

Unless there's only one on the bar, in which case, again, that's not a theme. Every revenant elite has at least one upkeep skill as it is.

As mentioned above, just spitting an idea for skills, it doesn't have to be that way. They could be the revenants equivalent to stances (so: "selfish Glint", if you must see it that way).

 

Btw: gaining passive effects was part of the urn mechanic. Most urns were granting an effect simply for holding them, like life leeching enemies hitting you or gaining more health.

 

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Most of which sounds like support to me, and after Glint and Kalla, revenant needs another elite spec designed around support like Engineer needs another power melee spec. And Kalla already summons ghosts that buff the attacks of your allies, while the legend system itself is channeling the spirits of heroes, so it basically comes down to the thing that's really missing being the lightning attacks. So... ranged power weapon? Of course, then it wouldn't be able to be used with Kalla, so I guess it comes back to my point about the theme being chopped up into slices that can never be combined into one build.

Not sure what revenant really desperately needs as a role, but ritualist could fill many of them.

You see them as supports, fine.... but ritualist has actually been the most versatile class in GW1. They could be damage dealers, healing supports, frontline bruisers.... they could do alot of different things with the right build.

 

So I think a ritualist elite spec could be adjusted for the role which is needed for rev.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And what, precisely, is boring about it?

Is it because, instead of the full versatility and customisability that ritualist (and engineer) could bring, you're limited to a spirit spammer that only generates spirits outside of weapon and profession mechanic skills? Is it because you're still most likely reverting to melee with your other legend? Is it, perhaps, because it's trying to add ritualist to a profession which is designed in a completely different way?

Pardon, this was autocorrect. I didn't meant to say boring, but "barring". In the sense of "Kalla did not have any thematical connections to ritualist at all". Which, as I mentioned repeatedly, is what I am looking for in a ritualist elite spec.

 

I want to see these spiritual leaders of Cantha return thematically.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The theme... can be applied to another profession. Necromancer seems to be out - for End of Dragons, anyway (but hey, maybe ritualist has evolved to use pistols now?) - but did you know that guardian has been explicitly stated to draw on ritualist teachings? Of course, guardians don't really want nor need another supportive elite spec at all. But seriously, applying ritualist to pretty much any other profession would work better than awkwardly bolting it onto revenant. Again. And again. Because if they attach it to some other profession, they can look at what the core profession already brings to the table that was similar to ritualist, and use the elite specialisation to fill in the gaps. Maybe ranger could have a mist lightning weapon and those venom-style weapon spells you referred to on top of the spirits they already summon - that way, players could have six weapon spell style skills to choose from, and can mix them in with other ranger abilities.

It can be applied to other classes, but if we are solely looking for letting ritualist return thematically, then revenant is the most viable choice here.

 

As said, revenant already is the one profession which uses similar techniques of mist magic like ritualists. They even revived the blindfold for revenant and used the third eye as the core class icon, which has been the official symbol of ritualists in GW1. Sure, they changed up the design, but it is still a clear reference.

 

kitten, the PvP title for revenants even is ritualist.

It is obvious that they were looking to bring the mist magic thematics of ritualist back through revenant. I just want them to go a step further with these connections.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

But mechanically, they're just aren't suited for it. Kalla is the closest that they're ever likely to get. 

 

And as I said above... there are other professions that not only could absorb ritualist, and be far closer to the original ritualist mechanically, but where in at least one case it is explicitly part of canon that they've already started.

I already mentioned, anet is willing to break design rules of the classes for these elite specs. So how can you confidently say that they are not suited mechanically if they directly said this?

[Oldyoung.6109]

https://i.imgur.com/6FOXB2M.png

 

looks like this to me, my best guess would be either Talon Silverwing or Soar Honorclaw.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

These were just examples, it doesn't have to be just that, I was just spitting some examples of skills from ritualist which could get translated into revenant besides the ghost.

They're the examples that come up every time I get involved in this discussion... and with good reason. Those are the unique skill types associated with ritualist. If you have something called a "ritualist", and it doesn't have spirits, weapon spells, or urns, is it really a ritualist? No.

 

I'd argue that if it doesn't have spirits, period, it's not a ritualist. And Kalla already does that.

 

Urns... you talk about stances. The Legends themselves are stances. Legendary X Stance. Most legends have some maintained upkeep skill that is also, essentially, a stance that has some form of continuous effect. Urns wouldn't be anything special unless you had a whole bar of them and, well, Glint already pretty much has that playstyle. I don't think selfish Glint is what anyone wants apart from people who are trying to justify why Kalla isn't already the ritualist theme for revenant. And weapon spells are, fundamentally, a support effect.

Quote

 

And about the whole problem you mention that it's either just a single weapon spell or an entire bar.... how about it is neither of these by force?

 

We know that Anet is willing to break design concepts of classes this time around. They directly said so themselves.

So maybe, instead of a ritualist being forced to take the entire bar of specific legends... they could have some wiggle room?

We are talking about ritualist, the one profession which has the deepest connection to the mist from the first game. In all these years, they could have even improved their techniques.

 

I would not say it is entirely out of the question that they managed to weave multiple legendary spirits at the same time.

So maybe this problem is solved exactly for the ritualist spec and it allows revenants to use skills from more than 2 legends, which they can mix together (maybe with a cost, like higher energy cost for skills not associated with your chosen main legends?).

I'm pretty sure there are still limits. Look at virtuoso. Doesn't have clones, which, don't get me wrong, is a pretty significant change... but still a mesmer. Still using some skills to generate a resource that can be expended to power... well, what are essentially still shatters by another name.

 

Maybe that's the one they've been the most conservative with, but until we see more, it's the guidance we have. Either way, I'm pretty sure they're not going to overhaul the fundamental design and uniqueness of a profession. Mesmer is still about building up a resource to power the profession mechanic. Revenant is probably still going to be about legend swapping to access different sets of utilities. 

 

Maybe they'll allow a bit of customisation of the bar... but I think that can only go so far. I doubt they'll make that many more utilities for a revenant elite than the six or so they normally do, and even if they go ham and add twelve (twice as many as what most get!), it's still only going to allow so much customisation. And if they expand the options by allowing slotting of skills from other legends... that's not ritualist, that's a Frankensteinian build-a-bear of the core legends, and you still won't get spirits because Kalla is a different elite specialisation.

Quote

Not sure what revenant really desperately needs as a role, but ritualist could fill many of them.

You see them as supports, fine.... but ritualist has actually been the most versatile class in GW1. They could be damage dealers, healing supports, frontline bruisers.... they could do alot of different things with the right build.

And it's exactly that versatility that makes me say that revenants will never be ritualists. Revenant legends are, by their nature, a single set of skills that you choose as a package, and you're trying to take what was probably the most versatile and customisable profession in GW1 and distil it into a single legend. Which would be doing justice neither to ritualist nor to the unique profession with potential for so much more that you're trying to turn into ritualist.

 

With that out of the way... sure, ritualist was versatile, but its fundamental game design purpose was to be an alternative to monks (in particular, breaking the double monk meta) in the support field. In my opinion, a ritualist that doesn't at least have significant support capabilities (you know, like Kalla) simply isn't a ritualist, it would at best be awkwardly pasting over ritualist-esque graphics on a new invention for the sake of mining nostalgia. And as stated before, revenant needs another support-oriented elite specialisation like engineer needs another melee power specialisation.

 

I'd ask how you'd react if I went to the engineer forums and demanded that the next elite specialisation be a lightning blaster because that's a theme I like and isn't captured in the attunement-swapping elementalist... but I already know.

 

It might be unfortunate that it has different graphics, but Kalla was the revenant's nod. Sure, maybe it would have been better if they'd done it now instead of with PoF and made it explicitly so rather than awkwardly putting a charr skin over it, but at the time they didn't know that they were going to Cantha (or having a third expansion at all), so I think they just wanted to get it done with a theme that was appropriate at the time. Either way, it's done now.

Quote

I want to see these spiritual leaders of Cantha return thematically.

It can be applied to other classes, but if we are solely looking for letting ritualist return thematically, then revenant is the most viable choice here.

It really isn't. As I've stated before, there are other professions that have thematic connections to ritualists, and whose core skills both have more in common with ritualist than core revenant, and where a ritualist-themed elite specialisation would allow them to better combine the core utility skills with the new ones. 

 

You can't just ignore the mechanics, and mechanically, pretty much any profession would serve better as the basis for a ritualist-themed elite specialisation than revenant.

Quote

kitten, the PvP title for revenants even is ritualist.

And the PvP title for guardians is paragon. Firebrand doesn't look much like paragon to me.

 

To be bluntly honest here, if the alternative is awkwardly pasting ritualist themes on revenant over and over again in a fashion that wastes revenant's potential while probably never really satisfying the people who just want ritualist ported into GW2, I'd rather than ritualist be treated like paragons as something where you see NPCs occasionally but which the PCs never get the chance to learn directly. Granted, ritualist is probably a bit more unique than paragon was, but you're never going to recreate ritualist by bolting it onto revenant. Let revenant explore its own potential.

 

10 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I already mentioned, anet is willing to break design rules of the classes for these elite specs. So how can you confidently say that they are not suited mechanically if they directly said this?

As commented above, I think there are limits to how far they can go with that. The core identity of the professions are still likely to be maintained, and the core identity of revenant involves swapping back to a core legend regularly in order to refill energy, trigger invocation traits, and access the utilities of that legend. Similarly, the build is still going to have two core traitlines. Fundamentally, revenant can only be as close to ritualist as the core allows it to be... and the core makeup just isn't compatible with being more ritualist-like than Kalla already achieves.

 

ADDENDUM: Mostly because the way to make revenant more ritualist-like... would be to make it more like a regular profession. Namely, by giving it choice in utility skills. At which point, isn't it easier just to start with a regular profession that already has thematic and mechanical similarities in the first place?

Edited August 1, 2021 by draxynnic.3719
Added addendum.

[Dahkeus.8243]

21 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

 

Third, revenants are not ritualists, and were never intended to be. 

So, curious: What title do you get when you win 150 rated PvP games as a revenant? 

[draxynnic.3719]

25 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

So, curious: What title do you get when you win 150 rated PvP games as a revenant? 

So, curious: Was the Elonian elite specialisation for guardian a paragon?

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

So, curious: Was the Elonian elite specialisation for guardian a paragon?

 

Does it make guardian any less of a paragon? As I see it, not having a specialization named this way don't change the fact that it's titled as one.

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Does it make guardian any less of a paragon? As I see it, not having a specialization named this way don't change the fact that it's titled as one.

 

 

No more than renegade already covers a ritualist-themed elite spec for revenant.

 

Because seriously... is anyone really looking at guardian and thinking "this is the replacement for paragon"? Guardians don't throw spears, apart from the underwater weapon and the F1 on dragonhunter. Guardians do have shouts, but they don't have chants, echoes, or adrenal-charging skills (unless you count the F1 passive).

 

That's the sort of fidelity people are asking for revenant to have to ritualist here. Elite specialisation legend that is all about summoning spirits for offense and support and summoning projectiles from the Mists? That's not good enough, because the graphics are glowing charr and flaming projectiles rather than translucent wraiths and teal lightning. I ask people what's left of ritualist after the core element of spirits has already been used, and I get something about urns and weapon spells. I challenge on how a coherent revenant legend and supporting elite spec could be formed around these (especially in consideration that revenant has already had two elite specs that were intended to be support-oriented), and how it could possibly actually get to a ritualist playstyle overall when a revenant is just going to keep going back to a core legend, and I get "I'm just throwing out ideas" and "you're worrying too much about mechanics, I'm talking about the theme." Well, there's a lot more ideas to throw out and themes that can be played with if you don't limit yourself to a GW1 profession that has already had its primary feature incorporated with the Kalla legend.

 

If people are going to point to that PvP title as evidence, then we need to consider that two such titles exist. Guardian could easily have had a paragon-like elite specialisation in PoF. We've already got the "making daggers out of broken spears" theme, so such an elite specialisation could have used throwing daggers, utility skills could be chants which provide a more powerful effect on nearby allies than regular shouts but have a casting time, and the elite specialisation mechanic could be that all the virtues charged up individually like GW1-style adrenaline skills, or alternatively they could have an effect whose duration can be extended by using shouts or chants like GW1 echoes. This concept could actually have been seamlessly added to the guardian - people could have played it as a 'pure' paragon that pretty much just uses the elite specialisation stuff apart from the weaponswap (and it wouldn't exactly be out of character for paragons to have a melee weapon to swap to) or mixed in as much of core guardian as they liked.

 

But, as you might have noticed... they didn't do this.*

 

The 'Champion Paragon' title pretty much just acknowledges that, yes, there is a thematic link. Back in the original media around the guardian announcement, we were given an origin story for guardians (the article in which it came has unfortunately been long lost) about them originally forming from monks and paragons getting together to combine their traditions (which later led to others being absorbed along the way).  That's the historical and thematic connection.

 

People assert that End of Dragons is the time to create a "real" ritualist elite specialisation for revenant (while saying that renegade isn't because the graphics are different), but by the same logic PoF would have been the time to make a real paragon elite, and they didn't do so. Because guardian is its own thing, not simply Paragon Mark 2, whatever the title might say.

 

Similarly, revenant has a thematic connection (but not a historic one, since there is no known link between ritualist and revenant historically) of drawing power from the Mists and having certain accessories such as the blindfold related to doing so, but nothing there is a commitment to make revenant into the GW2 ritualist. Engineer is the GW2 ritualist. Like guardian, one PvP title does not change the fact that revenant is its own thing, and it deserves to grow on its own rather than being shackled to the ritualist. Especially when the revenant core playstyle is so fundamentally different to the ritualist, and the design of the profession means that it's always likely to be going back to a core legend regularly.

 

I mean, sure, a future ranged weapon shooting teal lightning could be pretty cool, but I'm pretty sure there are more interesting options for legends than "this guy that people really only care about because he's a member of a profession that people are nostalgic about".

 

*Although I'd have to admit it'd be hilarious if they did do this in EoD, mainly because it would continue the trend of all mesmer weapons apart from offhand pistol being shared with guardian.

Edited August 1, 2021 by draxynnic.3719
Added observation about previous revenant specs being support-oriented.