Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Aeis.8519]

Oh dear.  There seems to be no constructive discussion going on here anymore.  Everyone seems to be all in at disproving, accusing, and in general being rather insufferable to one another instead of coming up with any sort of compromise and the few I've read come off as though they want the rewards for rather easy tasks or far too overpriced for their actual functionality.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

26 minutes ago, Aeis.8519 said:

Oh dear.  There seems to be no constructive discussion going on here anymore.  Everyone seems to be all in at disproving, accusing, and in general being rather insufferable to one another instead of coming up with any sort of compromise and the few I've read come off as though they want the rewards for rather easy tasks or far too overpriced for their actual functionality.

There's no compromise. A lot of the discussion is based on the skins not the functionality. They either do the raids or live happy knowing they can but refuse to. 

 

Edit: I wish they would bring the dislike option back so I wouldn't have to decide whether someone doesn't like the truth I'm saying or if they are genuinely confused by such a simple concept. Go ahead and make the stupid little confused emoji so I can assume you have a serious reading comprehension issue on top of poor player skill. 

 

(The edit was not referring to you Aeis so please don't read it that way) ❤

Edited August 8, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Teratus.2859]

3 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

But it is not irrelevant. I was explaining that nearly all games which launched this genre were designed with cooperation in mind and in fact made it a necessity that players work together. Very successful I might add given some of these games are still around decades later.

 

I explained how the cooperation aspects were shifted and refined to both allow a wider audience as well as better accessibility. Which no one denies.
 

It is when others bring this up and distort the historical process and development of where this genre came to be.

 

It's not important to the naming or when which term was implemented, true, besides a certain expectation going along with those terms.

That's all good, I wasn't denying any of this for the record. 🙂
It was only what you said about cooperation being associated with the "Massive" part of MMO.
I don't dispute anything else you said ^^
 

3 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

From a standpoint of player cooperation, it almost isn't.

 

In fact, for a part of this player base this game is nothing more than a glorified single player game where they occasionally see others running around. Those players are in a MMO, but they are not participating in it. The term is thus coined by those who do treat the game as a MMO.

 

Case in point:

I really got involved with GW1 once Nightfall came out (I had played the original game up til the last mission solo with henchman up to then, that was it). Now GW1 was no MMORPG, it still isn't. Still, I treated and played it like a single player game (even once Nightfall came out thanks to heros), which I perfectly enjoyed. I was NOT part of the player base which would qualify to coin the game a multiplayer game. For me GW1 was not a multiplayer game, it was a pure single player experience.

 

This game needs to be designed as a MMORPG, not as some glorified single player game where player can pat themselves on the back because they are wishful thinking that they are participating in a MMO when in are not, in fact participating.

Tbh I think Gw2 is more trying to "break the mold" of what traditional MMO's were.. which it's kind of been successful in even if it hasn't necessarily spread and "redefined" the genre.
It's quite hard to look at Gw2 and honestly claim it's "just another MMO" because there really ain't many if any mainstream MMO's out there that are like Gw2.

Personally I think it's a good thing to some extent that Gw2 has done this, even if some elements of the MMO genre haven't particularly crossed over, such as the traditional cooperation you see in older/other MMO's.
It is still present in Gw2 though, such as random players teaming up to beat events etc and of course more recognisable in the traditional form of instanced group content but Gw2 leaves it as more of an option than a necessity.
Big pro of that being that the game is significantly more accessible to a lot more players.. but the big trade off is that the traditional social element of MMO's isn't encouraged in the same way.

I think Anet's reasoning at the time for designing Gw2 this way was that Gw2 being an MMO would attract an already established MMO loving playerbase that would naturally want to keep this social tradition going in Gw2.. so Gw2 wouldn't have to actively promote it, players would just do it.
It makes sense in theory, but Gw2 largely ended up attracting a lot of different players, many probably had never even played an MMO before.
I can certainly confirm that I have met a good number of players over the years that have told me Gw2 is the first MMO they've ever played, it's been the same for a good few RL friends as well.
This is probably one of the biggest contributing factors for Gw2's dominant casual playerbase.

I don't think you can really change Gw2 at this point to be more like a traditional MMO.. not without risking a big loss on the current playerbase.
Much as we saw with raids, most players simply don't want to deal with stressful group based content, they want to play Gw2 their way, with their builds and learn from their own mistakes.
If that option is taken away from them then most of them would rather walk away and avoid that experience entirely.
Should that same situation be implemented in the open world or god forbid.. the story of the game you'd likely see a huge backlash as a result and a lot of players probably choosing to ignore the content.
Not to mention other issues that would frustrate and annoy a lot of players, you can take a look at dungeon storymodes and kinda see those issue in Gw2 to this day.
We've likely all been there when there's 1 person holding up a group to watch cutscenes cause they've never done the dungeon before.. or we may have been that person and likely been berated for it or having our some of our group just quit and leave because of it.

I think Gw2 definitely did the smart thing by making most of it's story content solo focused.
But I do agree that some of the more open world stuff, especially the vanilla game stuff could certainly use some touching up a bit, especially group focused events etc.
In fact this is something I have requested in the past a good few times., but for different reasons.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

What's niche about it? There's nothing niche about raiding.

Oh, i am sorry, i was so wrong/ Obviously a content subtype most players avoid like a plague that is being played by only a small fraction of the community is surely mainstream, not a niche [/sarcasm]

 

 

1 hour ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

There is an AI enemy that has a list of abilities they use. We use our abilities and see who dies first. It's the same thing as a difficult bounty that requires multiple people. Pve is pve, stop pretending it's not. Raiding is the highest level of pve just like rated pvp is the highest level of pvp. It's the same core gameplay but more difficult. I'm now accepting more of your "points" to bash holes through. 

It's niche because it is designed for (and played by) a small minority of players. And you not understanding why most players don't play it (or what the word "niche" means) doesn't change the reality.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Aeis.8519 said:

Oh dear.  There seems to be no constructive discussion going on here anymore.  Everyone seems to be all in at disproving, accusing, and in general being rather insufferable to one another instead of coming up with any sort of compromise and the few I've read come off as though they want the rewards for rather easy tasks or far too overpriced for their actual functionality.

Problem is, one side is in no way interested in any compromise, because currently they have everything, and do not want to share at all.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

22 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Problem is, one side is in no way interested in any compromise, because currently they have everything, and do not want to share at all.

So, without taking as much of an aggressive tone. Let me be calm and rational here. It isn't about sharing or not wanting to share. I want to see more people get the rewards they want. To me there's nothing fun about someone else not getting what they want. This isn't about gate keeping or any of that toxic elitist stuff. I'm actually a very helpful player and when people ask me how I got the armor I got I don't just tell them I raid. I'll link collections, give in depth info if they want it and point them in the direction to get started. What this is about is following the same path and doing what others did to get the same reward. There isn't some elite group that are just so far above everyone in skill that they can get legendary armor. That doesn't exist. You don't need to speed clear to get the armor, you don't need to do CMs weekly, you don't need to have an established group, and hell, you don't even need a meta build. I think a lot of issue comes from either performance anxiety with the fear of ridicule or social anxiety in general. Those are both something that I also face and it's a struggle. It's a reason why I get so heated when people want an easy way to do what I already had to overcome. I've even met some amazing friends in the process. Come join the raiding community. There are a lot of amazing people here (along with a lot of toxic, but even I still have to put up with them as well). You will absolutely be surprised. 

[LuRkEr.9462]

HoT raids aren't hard, literally anyone can get the armor if they are determined to. It will take months, as any legendary armor, but you will get there. Just join a guild, static, RA training raids, whatever. Any class can do it.

[Aeis.8519]

30 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Problem is, one side is in no way interested in any compromise, because currently they have everything, and do not want to share at all.

That's simply not true at all.  There's been multiple times where people have tried to come up with a compromise.  I think you even responded to one such post but didn't provide any useful feedback.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

So, without taking as much of an aggressive tone. Let me be calm and rational here. It isn't about sharing or not wanting to share. I want to see more people get the rewards they want. To me there's nothing fun about someone else not getting what they want. This isn't about gate keeping or any of that toxic elitist stuff. I'm actually a very helpful player and when people ask me how I got the armor I got I don't just tell them I raid. I'll link collections, give in depth info if they want it and point them in the direction to get started. What this is about is following the same path and doing what others did to get the same reward.

Does that look like any form of compromise from you? Because to me it does not.

 

5 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Come join the raiding community. There are a lot of amazing people here (along with a lot of toxic, but even I still have to put up with them as well). You will absolutely be surprised. 

You might have not noticed, but i have already obtained my envoy armor sets. It did not change my view on the whole situation one bit. In fact, i am now even more strongly supporting creating an alternative to that path. Because it is not a path for most PvE players. It's a path only for a small minority of PvE players. And even out of those, for many it will be extremely unfun.

[Astralporing.1957]

12 minutes ago, Aeis.8519 said:

That's simply not true at all.  There's been multiple times where people have tried to come up with a compromise.  I think you even responded to one such post but didn't provide any useful feedback.

Which post was that?

(notice, btw, that in my past i have provided a lot of "useful feedback", only to get stonewalled or shouted down. There's a point beyond which it just gets too tiring to repeat the same things over and over again ane be met by exactly the same responses - often from the very same responders)

Notice also, that while a few players are now willing to consider any form of compromise, it is something that started appearning only after it has been clear that there won't be any further work done on raids anymore. Up to that point the "compromise" offered was always only of the "just do raids" kind, in the vein shown above by @Zalavaaris.5329

Edited August 8, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Zalavaaris.5329]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Does that look like any form of compromise from you? Because to me it does not.

 

You might have not noticed, but i have already obtained my envoy armor sets. It did not change my view on the whole situation one bit. In fact, i am now even more strongly supporting creating an alternative to that path. Because it is not a path for most PvE players. It's a path only for a small minority of PvE players. And even out of those, for many it will be extremely unfun.

It's a blanket invitation to anyone who is struggling with the idea. And no I didn't audit your gear or accomplishments. Grats to you though!

[yann.1946]

4 hours ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

It makes sense if there are few raiders and lack of interest then there wont be raids created in the future. So envoy is raid centric and no new leggy will be tied to raids, cause there will be no raids without interest. Maybe the answer is a 3rd mode simply make the wings available with toned down mechanics and add a set to that, not an envoy set because even i believe that the top content should have the better rewards. Im not debating that, but you can add a leggy set that dont have the special effects and the unique skins that envoy has. 

See this is not an explanation of your point. 

You said that people can enjoy their envoy at the expense of raids. This means that the existence or possession of envoy negatively impacts raids. That is what you have to explain. 

 

4 hours ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

 

 

[yann.1946]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, I don't see how either of those things change what I'm saying here right ... again, this situation with raids, leg armor and it's engagement with players doesn't make sense, for anyone. Whatever reason I think they added trinkets if most people aren't expected to get them really has nothing to do with the discussion here. I didn't say rewards aren't useful ... but it is easily to criticize how useful it is to the game based on it's low player engagement. 

I at this point just want to have a conversation about a single point you made, namely is the existence of rewards designed to be acquired by the minority bad. That is the difference of opinion we have. Because we really can't have a discussion about whether the low obtainebility of raid armour is a problem without that point. 

 

You responded to that question so I presume that you where willing to actually have that conversation. 

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

To be fair though .. I don't know what needs to be done for trinkets because I haven't looked into getting them, so I shouldn't include them in my 'low engagement' bucket.  I definitely feel Weapons are something that eventually the average player can get,

I did not ask can get, I asked will get. These are different questions. 

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Armor not and I'm not sure about trinkets. 

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

16 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Which post was that?

(notice, btw, that in my past i have provided a lot of "useful feedback", only to get stonewalled or shouted down. There's a point beyond which it just gets too tiring to repeat the same things over and over again ane be met by exactly the same responses - often from the very same responders)

Notice also, that while a few players are now willing to consider any form of compromise, it is something that started appearning only after it has been clear that there won't be any further work done on raids anymore. Up to that point the "compromise" offered was always only of the "just do raids" kind, in the vein shown above by @Zalavaaris.5329

While still remaining calm, you're correct. There is no compromise. But we are here to help people through it. I'd be happy to work with people on it too (showing how to join training runs, etc. etc.)

Edited August 8, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Aeis.8519]

19 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Which post was that?

(notice, btw, that in my past i have provided a lot of "useful feedback", only to get stonewalled or shouted down. There's a point beyond which it just gets too tiring to repeat the same things over and over again ane be met by exactly the same responses - often from the very same responders)

Notice also, that while a few players are now willing to consider any form of compromise, it is something that started appearning only after it has been clear that there won't be any further work done on raids anymore. Up to that point the "compromise" offered was always only of the "just do raids" kind, in the vein shown above by @Zalavaaris.5329

I'll go digging through the thread again, then.  Also nice of you to edit your post with that preface.  So disingenuous of you.  I don't believe I'll engage with you from now on.
 

this post asking how you'd do it:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/?do=findComment&comment=1424831
 

this post trying to come up with a compromise but, in my opinion, the wrong way about it:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/?do=findComment&comment=1424937

This post agreeing with the new strike missions coming out to be a viable alternative: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/?do=findComment&comment=1424968
 

Another about strikes or altering raids to make them easier to get into:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/?do=findComment&comment=1424728
 

A post agreeing with the sentiment that raids should have a tiered difficulty system:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/?do=findComment&comment=1424758
 

Another advocating legendary armor for strikes:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/?do=findComment&comment=1424805
 

Further discussion about it stating that higher difficulty CMs award more progress:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/?do=findComment&comment=1424808
 

The bottom half of this post: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/?do=findComment&comment=1424038
 

This one talking of a way to progressively unlock legendary functionality: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/?do=findComment&comment=1424055

I think I made it as far back as page 6 before I grew tired of re-reading all of it.

[Aeis.8519]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:06 PM, Zuldari.3940 said:

Thats the problem, they try to disguise it as , well do the raids/pvp/wvw for the set like we did. But there is that bit of petty superiority behind it. Not helpful, esp since its not going to change anything for them if a set was made for open world.

They don't, though?  The general sentiment I'm getting from this thread is that there's a subset of players here that want legendary armor for less work than what it currently takes to get it from any of the game modes.  Alternatives involving more lively, daily activities were suggested, shot down, and petty argumentation ensued that lead to no solution.  There's also this huge schism between what everyone here believes is deserving of legendary armor with people suggesting that world bosses are enough to requiring multiple strike CM clears in EoD.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

I at this point just want to have a conversation about a single point you made, namely is the existence of rewards designed to be acquired by the minority bad. That is the difference of opinion we have. Because we really can't have a discussion about whether the low obtainebility of raid armour is a problem without that point. 

Well, I define 'bad' in this case as two things:

 

1. Anet did the work to create methods and put leg armor in the game. I do believe Anet's intention was that raids were going to be the direction forward for 'endgame content' for people ... but that's not how it worked out. Yes, I'm assuming that raids wasn't just a '4 year project' that ends. I think that assumption is pretty reasonable given the scope and effort Anet put into it.  

2. Players aren't engaged in that content. Regardless of the work, no developer of ANYTHING wants to see their realized creations not get used. That's bad for business. 

 

From my perspective, the more instances of work being done/players don't engage, the worse it is. I don't think it's a 'problem' that we have this particular instance in the game, but I do think it's a wasted opportunity for Anet to not explore ways to get this gear in the hands of players with content they ARE willing to do. This is especially true considering:

 

1. the paradigm of end game gear is that it should be something everyone takes SOME interest in obtaining in an MMO. 

2. the items in question here are convenience items that wouldn't affect the performance of a player in PVE. 

 

I think the only barrier to this idea of alternate PVE methods to obtain leg armor is that it would be perceived as an easier path than WvW, where the armor does have a performance impact. I also believe that this can be addressed. It's actually similar to how Anet addressed crafting precursors when that was introduced. 

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

You said that people can enjoy their envoy at the expense of raids. This means that the existence or possession of envoy negatively impacts raids. That is what you have to explain.

I don;t know what @Zuldari.3940 meant when he said that, but as i see it, there are several issues with it:

First, Envoy was a big draw that brought a number of players into the content, and inflated it beyond the numbers it would have without it. On surface, that seems good, for raiders at least, because they have more people to play with. On the other hand, it affects the statistics, and makes it so devs are unable to see what the real situation is. As such, when eventually the people that went there for shinies pull out, it becomes too late to attempt to fix the situation. Additionally, it not only confuses devs, but also raiders themselves. They see other players doing that content, and think it validates their view about the content. It also makes it so they feel safe, and as such react violently to any attempt to change the situation which they might perceive as giving ground. And when they eventually see people leaving, they look into all the other reasons that might have caused it, not admitting that their content might just have been that (un) popular from the get go. While, if the situation was not falsified from the beginning, they might have been more amenable to changes (and the changes might have happened way before raiders dug out on their positions).

 

Second, we know that making raid armor took a lot of resources from anet. So many, they never considered making another set of similar quality. That resource expediture unfortunately ended up being partially wasted, because it happened to end up being used by only a small amount of players. At the same time, it set certain expectations. For one, exclusivity - Anet could not just use the same rewards for raids and other content because by that point raiders fully expected them to be 100% exclusive and would have thrown a riot if that were to change. But at the same time, raiders expected the same amount of resources dedicated to future rewards, and Anet could not justify doing that, seeing how few players actually benefitted from it. And when Anet started lowering the resource expenditures, it also triggered negative response, and players leaving (which in turn caused Anet to have to reduce resource expenditures even more, in adjustment for even lower raid population, which caused even more people getting angry and leaving, and so on, and so on).

 

The above of course is not just about Envoy set, but it did play a big role here.

 

Basically, if Anet did not make Envoy locked behind raids, raid population would not have gotten inflated so much at the start and Anet would have noticed there are problems much earlier, and be able to make adjustments before the situation got so bad that it was unsalvageable. If the problems would have been visible from the beginning, raiders would have been far more willing to adjust, just to keep their content. And if Anet's resource expenditures on raid content were lower, they might have been more willing to still keep working on them even at lower population levels.

 

Perhaps. Or perhaps Raids were simply doomed from the very beginning and nothing could have saved them.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, I define 'bad' in this case as two things:

 

1. Anet did the work to create methods and put leg armor in the game. I do believe Anet's intention was that raids were going to be the direction forward for 'endgame content' for people ... but that's not how it worked out. Yes, I'm assuming that raids wasn't just a '4 year project' that ends. I think that assumption is pretty reasonable given the scope and effort Anet put into it.  

2. Players aren't engaged in that content. Regardless of the work, no developer of ANYTHING wants to see their realized creations not get used. That's bad for business. 

 

From my perspective, the more instances of work being done/players don't engage, the worse it is. I don't think it's a 'problem' that we have this particular instance in the game, but I do think it's a wasted opportunity for Anet to not explore ways to get this gear in the hands of players with content they ARE willing to do. This is especially true considering:

 

1. the paradigm of end game gear is that it should be something everyone takes SOME interest in obtaining in an MMO. 

2. the items in question here are convenience items that wouldn't affect the performance of a player in PVE. 

 

I think the only barrier to this idea of alternate PVE methods to obtain leg armor is that it would be perceived as an easier path than WvW, where the armor does have a performance impact. I also believe that this can be addressed. It's actually similar to how Anet addressed crafting precursors when that was introduced. 

The problem is, we don't know the metrics of the actual raid population. We can't go off of perception from seeing forum posts. Perhaps there are a lot more raiders out there than you realize. Maybe they have a raid in the works for the expansion that we don't know about, so we can't even say the lack of a raid in recent times is proof of low participation. Without those important metrics (that only anet has) all we can do is speculate and form opinions based on effectively nothing. However, we CAN form an idea of what they will do based on historic data (aka raids have been out for a long time and so has the armor, yet its still exclusive to raids). I wouldn't expect that to change. I'm sorry though, I know this is hard news for some. Luckily there is a community there to help players through the process.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Aeis.8519 said:

Oh dear.  There seems to be no constructive discussion going on here anymore.  Everyone seems to be all in at disproving, accusing, and in general being rather insufferable to one another instead of coming up with any sort of compromise and the few I've read come off as though they want the rewards for rather easy tasks or far too overpriced for their actual functionality.

Well, let's change that here:

 

Personally, I don't care what the cost would be relative to the current methods; it's not a barrier to considering an alternate PVE route to leg. armor AND it's totally under Anet's discretion to make 'cost' to obtain a factor (or not) in an alternate PVE method. In fact, I believe that if there would be an alternate path, it would similar to the approach Anet took to implement craftable precursors. Some history here: many players ASSUMED it would be cheaper to craft a precursor than using the mystic toilet or buying it ... man where THEY shocked. 

 

In otherwords ... no one should be attempting to shutting down the discussion because of the 'cost' to leg. armor through an alternate PVE path. That's just bad acting. 

[Astralporing.1957]

11 minutes ago, Aeis.8519 said:

They don't, though?  The general sentiment I'm getting from this thread is that there's a subset of players here that want legendary armor for less work than what it currently takes to get it from any of the game modes. 

No. For different work. Or more specifically, not for work, but for interesting (to them) gameplay. Which may still require a lot of effort.

 

It's exactly the thinking that you have to work for something instead of having fun that is the core issue here. Especially since it's being pushed by people that actually are having fun.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

14 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. For different work. Or more specifically, not for work, but for interesting (to them) gameplay. Which may still require a lot of effort.

 

It's exactly the thinking that you have to work for something instead of having fun that is the core issue here. Especially since it's being pushed by people that actually are having fun.

It's a grind that many mmos including gw2 has. It's still work for people who enjoy it. Honestly, some days I enjoy it, some weeks I wish I could never do it again. I'm working on my third set now and it is a major chore. Every 2 weeks though I finish a piece so it's really rewarding to see the ui for legendaries pop up twice a month. I should be done by September. Looking forward to others hopping into the game (raids specifically since they have to) and getting what they want! 

 

Also for reference, they are bringing FISHING before an open world envoy set. Let that one sink in.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Tails.9372]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think the only barrier to this idea of alternate PVE methods to obtain leg armor is that it would be perceived as an easier path than WvW

 

One would have to be out of their mind in order to perceive pretty much any path exclusive to PvE as "easier than WvW" and the only ones who actually asked for something like that did so sarcastically to mock the idea.

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

One would have to be out of their mind in order perceive pretty much any path exclusive to PvE as "easier than WvW" and the only ones who actually asked for something like that did so sarcastically to mock the idea.

 

This. The only reason why more PvE players do not go to WvW for the armor is because it is a completely different playstyle. Not because it is hard. Frankly, even the least effort-requiring suggestions made for PvE (well, those seriously made, not the examples made by the other side to try to discredit the idea) are not easier that WvW. For this, it would have to be either obtained through login rewards, or flat out given to players for asking - which is not something anyone seriously suggested.

[Aeis.8519]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, let's change that here:

 

Personally, I don't care what the cost would be relative to the current methods; it's not a barrier to considering an alternate PVE route to leg. armor AND it's totally under Anet's discretion to make 'cost' to obtain a factor (or not) in an alternate PVE method. In fact, I believe that if there would be an alternate path, it would similar to the approach Anet took to implement craftable precursors. Some history here: many players ASSUMED it would be cheaper to craft a precursor than using the mystic toilet or buying it ... man where THEY shocked. 

 

In otherwords ... no one should be attempting to shutting down the discussion because of the 'cost' to leg. armor through an alternate PVE path. That's just bad acting. 

In some instances, back in the day, crafting precursors were about on par with buying it on the trading post if not money saved.  This is just from my research and looking at them.  From what it looks like now, though, some precursors took  major dips as while  ascended materials to make them spiked up in price so it's not really worth crafting them now.  That's just how the market be, to be honest.  Also, I'm curious, why shouldn't legendary armor that  doesn't involve raids have the same or similar value in time investment and effort as the current legendary armor?  For what I know, legendary items are the ultimate gear.  You make one and now you have that item for that slot forever across all characters.  That sounds like it should be expensive and take effort.