Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[yoni.7015]

8 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Yep. But the only armor that animates when you go into combat is in Raids. Which I disagree with. I'm not sure why you have an issue with me stating my opinion on this, but I promise if you stop responding to me, I will stop answering.

This is an open forum. If you have a problem with people disagreeing with you, maybe your diary is the right place for your opinion. 
 

but yeah, seems to be pretty pointless to discuss with you. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by yoni.7015

[Cyninja.2954]

49 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I don't convert gems to gold either and I play my other accounts.  For example every single one of my accounts is current on the new Seasons of the Dragon meta.   I know you think you're more hard core, dedicated, amazing, because after all you're a raider and a poor casual like me can't possibly be working  as hard as you.

Actually, I don't.

Quote

 

So you can name one guy who got what I got in 2.5 months (and I still don't believe it, btw, unless he spent real money to do it).  That likely means the other 6 raiders in the game haven't.

 

This is what I'm getting from your posts. I don't deserve the rewards that you get because I don't like that content and you work so so hard at it, that you deserve it.

I can't even imagine a more ludicrous position.  I support the game more than most people both by playing and spending. I have an opinion. I state it. Trying to trivialize what I've accomplished doesn't make you look like you've accomplished a lot.  And just shows that some raiders have no regard or respect for anything but raiding.

No, what I was getting at was far more simple, but you missed it:

 

You are a king among the casuals. You think yourself hardcore and engaged and start bragging about how much better and further you are than other players. The moment you have to compare yourself to actually other players who are hardcore into this game, and many of which who do raid or participate in all aspects of this game, you are not as special as you might have thought. It's that simple.

 

You can have an opinion. Next time voice it without assuming you are better or more important than others or that this in any way entitles you to special attention.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Vayne.8563]

2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Actually, I don't.

No, what I was getting at was far more simple, but you missed it:

 

You are a king among the casuals. You think yourself hardcore and engaged and start bragging about how much better and further you are than other players. The moment you have to compare yourself to actually other players who are hardcore into this game, and many of which who do raid or participate in all aspects of this game, you are not as special as you might have thought. It's that simple.

 

You can have an opinion. Next time voice it without assuming you are better or more important than others or that this in any way entitles you to special attention.

I only responded with my accomplishments because someone said people who wanted this were lazy. And I pointed out that's not true. Prior to that I didn't laud my accomplishments, just stated my position. 

 

Raiders in this thread have called casuals lazy, entitled, bads...but apparently I'm the guy with a problem. I don't go into every thread lauding my achievements.  But I will defend myself when attacked.  You know that glass houses/stones thing.  You should probably brush up on that.

[yann.1946]

56 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I don't convert gems to gold either and I play my other accounts.  For example every single one of my accounts is current on the new Seasons of the Dragon meta.   I know you think you're more hard core, dedicated, amazing, because after all you're a raider and a poor casual like me can't possibly be working  as hard as you.

 

So you can name one guy who got what I got in 2.5 months (and I still don't believe it, btw, unless he spent real money to do it).  That likely means the other 6 raiders in the game haven't.

 

This is what I'm getting from your posts. I don't deserve the rewards that you get because I don't like that content and you work so so hard at it, that you deserve it.

I can't even imagine a more ludicrous position.  I support the game more than most people both by playing and spending. I have an opinion. I state it. Trying to trivialize what I've accomplished doesn't make you look like you've accomplished a lot.  And just shows that some raiders have no regard or respect for anything but raiding.

Thank you for showing something that really confused me about something astral said. 

 

I can now see why people assume that raiders want to lock everyone out of the armor. 

 

Nothing cynt said implied you where somehow lesser, but the conversation is so poisoned that disagreement or corrections get seen as an attack. 

[Cyninja.2954]

29 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I only responded with my accomplishments because someone said people who wanted this were lazy. And I pointed out that's not true. Prior to that I didn't laud my accomplishments, just stated my position. 

 

Raiders in this thread have called casuals lazy, entitled, bads...but apparently I'm the guy with a problem. I don't go into every thread lauding my achievements.  But I will defend myself when attacked.  You know that glass houses/stones thing.  You should probably brush up on that.

Sometimes it's how you state something and not what you intend to state.

 

Read up on HOW you made that defense, and while at it make a stop at the response where you call me a liar.

 

Then get back to telling me on what I should brush up on.

 

EDIT:

been resolved. Cooler heads prevailed. Bit of a miscommunication and flaring tempers.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Dante.1763]

9 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Thank you for showing something that really confused me about something astral said. 

 

I can now see why people assume that raiders want to lock everyone out of the armor. 

 

Nothing cynt said implied you where somehow lesser, but the conversation is so poisoned that disagreement or corrections get seen as an attack. 

Yea, i agree with you here, Cyn didnt do any attacks in her? Post, and is even correct.

 

Vayne is also not a casual player, and may be one of the most hardcore players in the game, despite not doing raids.

 

However:

 

He is correct on one point above. "Raiders" by far and large talk down to anyone who doesnt do raids when it comes to this topic. No matter the reasons why. They even talk down to folks who do raids, but see the merits in a non raid armor set.

 

This post has been decently clean, thankfully. Posts in the past? Have absolutely not been, and it has set the mindset that you see repeated throughout this thread.

 

And even if most dont agree with the loud ones, their silence speaks volumes too.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Vayne.8563]

Look this is obviously getting too heated, so I'm going to bow out of this thread completely. I've said my piece anyway.

I unreservedly apologize to anyone who was offended by what I've said. 

[Cyninja.2954]

4 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Yea, i agree with you here, Cyn didnt do any attacks in her? Post, and is even correct.

 

Vayne is also not a casual player, and may be one of the most hardcore players in the game, despite not doing raids.

 

I was not intentionally picking on Vayne, and I am sure he has the best interests of this game at heart. It was just something that rubbed me the wrong way, I could have been more diplomatic.

 

He is by far not "casual" (whatever that term means in the current discussion) and his dedication is mirrored by few other players, some of which are found in niche game modes (my personal opinion being that most are in multiple game modes, but that's my personal subjective opinion).

 

So I always take his opinion with a grain of salt as not representative of the entire player base (as should anyone, especially towards vocal players, even myself. We are all subject to our own limited experiences and social surroundings), given he is a niche there, just like myself.

 

4 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

 

However:

 

He is correct on one point above. "Raiders" by far and large talk down to anyone who doesnt do raids when it comes to this topic. No matter the reasons why. They even talk down to folks who do raids, but see the merits in a non raid armor set.

 

Can't argue with that. Unfortunately the case. I missed that Vayne was "defending" himself since I did not follow the entire thread.

 

Still think that could have been phrased differently.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Look this is obviously getting too heated, so I'm going to bow out of this thread completely. I've said my piece anyway.

I unreservedly apologize to anyone who was offended by what I've said. 

 

True, just in case I came off as to direct. It was not personal from my end. I get that you are very passionate about the game. Could have probably been a bit more delicate myself.

[yann.1946]

1 minute ago, Dante.1763 said:

Yea, i agree with you here. To a point.

 

Vayne is correct on one point above. "Raiders" by far and large talk down to anyone who doesnt do raids when it comes to this topic. No matter the reasons why. They even talk down to folks who do raids, but see the merits in a non raid armor set.

 

This post has been decently clean, thankfully. Posts in the past? Have absolutely not been.

 

And even if most dont agree with the loud ones, their silence speaks volumes too.

 

I would disagree slightly with that their silent speaks. 

First, people just generally remember the bad ones, this in combination with some confirmation bias. 

 

I've have seen extremely vile speak on both sides, and I remember mostly anti raider rethoric being unopposed and sometimes raiders correcting toxic people. But that will also be clouded by what I was most interested in in this topic. 

So I will not assume that either side has been more civil. 

 

I think their is also a big discrepancy between someone saying 

"these people are lazy and should not get something" 

And 

"I believe all gamemodes/playstyle should have unique rewards and thus people not doing the game mode should not get it." 

 

Even in actual conversations these might seem like the same opinion. 

Even though one gives some moral value to people and the other does not

[Cuks.8241]

I've read an interview with a mmorpg game developer not long a go. He said that hard content with exclusive rewards, even if not played by many, is necessary for mmos. It's not just that you want to keep hardcore players happy because they are dedicated customers but also that games need something to look up to, something to strive for. Even if never played and reached by most players. If the game lacks that, the players will feel like they reached the top, done everything and leave. 

 

Additionally I have always been a supporter of hard content gives best rewards. Doesn't mean I will reach those rewards, and that is just fine. Don't know this just feel naturally for me. This "everyone needs to be able to get everything" mentality is just wrong for me. Goes against what games should be, where competition, bragging rights, win/lose scenarios and some healthy drama and tension are foundations. If a game loses competitiveness it is not a game anymore.

I don't know what it becomes then, a fancy chatroom? Oh noes, not even that, because gw2 seems to be the most antisocial multiplayer game sometimes. Like if you mention that players should actually converse and cooperate with other players to achieve something people get anxious. 

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

15 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I've read an interview with a mmorpg game developer not long a go. He said that hard content with exclusive rewards, even if not played by many, is necessary for mmos. It's not just that you want to keep hardcore players happy because they are dedicated customers but also that games need something to look up to, something to strive for. Even if never played and reached by most players. If the game lacks that, the players will feel like they reached the top, done everything and leave. 

 

Additionally I have always been a supporter of hard content gives best rewards. Doesn't mean I will reach those rewards, and that is just fine. Don't know this just feel naturally for me. This "everyone needs to be able to get everything" mentality is just wrong for me. Goes against what games should be, where competition, bragging rights, win/lose scenarios and some healthy drama and tension are foundations. If a game loses competitiveness it is not a game anymore.

I don't know what it becomes then, a fancy chatroom? Oh noes, not even that, because gw2 seems to be the most antisocial multiplayer game sometimes. Like if you mention that players should actually converse and cooperate with other players to achieve something people get anxious. 

This is very true ... 

Raid game mode is really hanging by a thread . The thread's name is "unique animating legendary Armor" and new raid players have this only thread to climb and reach the game mode, populate it and keep it alive... If anet makes an alternate approach to get that Armor, it's like cutting that last thin thread out of existence... New players would never consider a chance to try the game mode... 

Ppl who are against raiding pls grin and bear with it until u make your quick and easy low cost first set and leave after if u wish to... But don't try to kill the game mode with all your might. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Dante.1763]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

I would disagree slightly with that their silent speaks. 

First, people just generally remember the bad ones, this in combination with some confirmation bias. 

 

I've have seen extremely vile speak on both sides, and I remember mostly anti raider rethoric being unopposed and sometimes raiders correcting toxic people. But that will also be clouded by what I was most interested in in this topic. 

So I will not assume that either side has been more civil. 

 

I think their is also a big discrepancy between someone saying 

"these people are lazy and should not get something" 

And 

"I believe all gamemodes/playstyle should have unique rewards and thus people not doing the game mode should not get it." 

 

Even in actual conversations these might seem like the same opinion. 

Even though one gives some moral value to people and the other does not

I dont disagree that both sides have been very uncivil. Projected by the worst on both sides. I have however been on the recieving end of some disgusting comments in the past, and its why i dont call myself a "raider" despite doing raids.

 

However i am not talking about the later people you mention above as i am one of them, the former, but with much worse comments are the ones i am talking about.

 

 

envoy armor should remain locked behind raids. That skin, and its effects should not be made easier to obtain. It is Raid armor, and should only be obtained through raids.

 

however, i also believe a legendary quality armor should exist in pve, without a unique skin, and no raid requirement.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Dante.1763]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

I was not intentionally picking on Vayne, and I am sure he has the best interests of this game at heart. It was just something that rubbed me the wrong way, I could have been more diplomatic.

 

He is by far not "casual" (whatever that term means in the current discussion) and his dedication is mirrored by few other players, some of which are found in niche game modes (my personal opinion being that most are in multiple game modes, but that's my personal subjective opinion).

 

So I always take his opinion with a grain of salt as not representative of the entire player base (as should anyone, especially towards vocal players, even myself. We are all subject to our own limited experiences and social surroundings), given he is a niche there, just like myself.

 

 

Can't argue with that. Unfortunately the case. I missed that Vayne was "defending" himself since I did not follow the entire thread.

 

Still think that could have been phrased differently.

Oh i know you werent, i just used him as an example because it just happened xD

 

And yea, hes a hardcore player who represents no major population of the game. Shoot even i dont represent a major population of the game and well nobody on here does either so you are right there 🙂

[BadHealer.3608]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:30 AM, Maiku Larzon.7150 said:

Hey all. Just wanted to hear what other people think about locking the Perfected Envoy armor behind raids. (my opinion, best looking armor)

 

So, who cares that the best looking armour is behind raids. For me the best looking armour is behind PVP tournaments. So how about each of us open a topic where we complain that the best skin is behind something we do not like to do?

 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Chrysaliss.8720 said:

 

Bruh. This makes so little sense I dont even know how to respond to this.......

Well, using terms whose definition you don't know can make you confused. Basically, the term "equality of opportunity" (especially when used together with "equality of outcome") is a term from political theory that has a very specific meaning. Your use of that term does not fit the meaning.

 

There are two requirements your use of it does not fulfill. First, the "equality of opportunity" must apply to the whole playing field, not only selectively to some parts (but not the others). Second, for it to be present, the criteria you use to limit access to certain goal must be logically tied to that goal. In this case, if you limit access to the legendary armor in any way, you must ensure that this limitation is being done purely on the basis of who is best suited for it.

Since being a raider has no relevance on whether someone is a best fit for legendary armor or not, it is not an "equality of opportunity". It would fit a lot of the checkboxes for discriminating access based on arbitrary requirements however.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Raid game mode is really hanging by a thread . The thread's name is "unique animating legendary Armor" and new raid players have this only thread to climb and reach the game mode, populate it and keep it alive... If anet makes an alternate approach to get that Armor, it's like cutting that last thin thread out of existence... New players would never consider a chance to try the game mode..

If this mode really needs that legendary armor draw in order to survive, it means something is very, very wrong with that content, and you really should be aiming to fix it, instead of trying to buy off other players in order to conceal those underlying issues.

 

If what you saying is true, it's not people that are asking for alternate legendary sets that are killing raids. It's either the raiders themselves, or raid design that does that.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Mode locking would be the equivelent of a the bridge crumbling.

And the road being locked is equivalent with the population not desiring the reward being locked.

 

In the case of the bridge when being asked whether the bridge is crumbling is bad the response would be "yes, ..." with maybe some caveats.

While in the case of mode locks i have given you example where you said "NO, the bridge crumbling is not a problem because the road is closed."

I did not said that. I said, that bridge crumbling is bad. And that it becomes an issue as soon as the first person will try to cross it. You are again adding meaning to what i said that i did not put in it.

 

3 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

That is the literal interpretation of what you wrote yes.

These are moments where i wonder if i just suck at language. 

You say something, i respond to what you wrote, you add some extra things to what you wrote.

And now im the one adding additional interpretation?

I add those things, because from your response i can see that you did not understand what i was trying to convey. Then you again misunderstand, so i try a different way to convey the same thing, and then you misunderstand again...

Perhaps it wil go better if you'll just concentrate on what i actually said, and not on the added interpretations you always seem to add to it.

 

3 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

I presumed you did not care, thats why i used it as an example of something which was mode locked but you do not consider a problem. -> even if it is an issue affecting nobody, the design problem behind both is the same in regards to mode locking.

You are right. the design problem is the same. I will just not spend a lot of effort arguing for something that i don't see impacts anyone. Especially if i see noone that might really be impacted by it speaking up.

The same way like i don't argue for SPvP/WvW full legendary sets, but if some WvWer/SpvPer spoke up asking for those, i would support that.

I'm just a single person with limited energy and time. Don't expect me to address every single thing that is wrong with the world.

 

(also, again, things are not binary. I can see something as a theoretical problem, but not speak about it because i don't consider it big enough to significantly impact anyone. Me giving it a pass will not suddenly make it not a problem however)

 

3 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

That last thing is interesting to me because actual dialogue can start from their:

-> How can we make more people that want reward think the reward made for them? More accesibility in different modes, more accesibility in the mode, making it so people do not want the rewards, etc. Why this third suggestion probably sucks etc.

Yes, those are the three ways to solve those issues. Which one would be better is something very case-specific however.

BTW: the third suggestion is not really bad - in many ways it is very good. It just cannot be applied to many things. Basically, the reward must be something that lacks general desirability, and is basically meant only for the content it comes from.

Fractal potions, as well as title track and bonuses associated with it are a good example of this used in practice.

 

3 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

I dont, Now i will call then lw trinkets and raid armour in casual conversation because that makes me more understandable. 

humour me for a second, What is the amount of raids that you would need before it stops being a raid set for you?

remember what i was saying earlier about shallow dipping vs heavy investment in the mode? It's not easy to set a precise limit, but in general that's the difference. If something requires heavy mode investment, it will get associated with said mode. If something requires only shallow contact with the mode, it will not.

150 LI for the first set, 300 for subsequent ones is not shallow investment. Neither are LS requirements for Aurora and Vision.

 

Just looking at gifts is not enough, because gifts are not equal - each requires different amount of effort and content dedication.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, BadHealer.3608 said:

So, who cares that the best looking armour is behind raids. For me the best looking armour is behind PVP tournaments. So how about each of us open a topic where we complain that the best skin is behind something we do not like to do?

Sure, if you think that is an issue to you, do that.

[yann.1946]

46 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I did not said that. I said, that bridge crumbling is bad. And that it becomes an issue as soon as the first person will try to cross it. You are again adding meaning to what i said that i did not put in it.

 

I add those things, because from your response i can see that you did not understand what i was trying to convey. Then you again misunderstand, so i try a different way to convey the same thing, and then you misunderstand again...

Perhaps it wil go better if you'll just concentrate on what i actually said, and not on the added interpretations you always seem to add to it.

The problem is that i concentrate on what you actually said, and i did not  add my own interpretation.

When we started this convo i asked and you responded and i quote

"

Lets ask a broader question then, do you think it is okay for rewards to be tied to specific peaces of content?

Rewards, yes. Reward categories, no. It's okay for the Envoy set to be locked behind raids. It's not okay for the only PvE legendary armor (and the only transforming/animated skin set in the game) to be locked behind that content however.

I feel also that ist is sometimes okay to lock something behind shallow engagement in some type of content in order to encourage players to try it out (i.e. i have no problems with Gift of Battle - it does require you to go into WvW and play for a bit, but it's not locked behind a massive engagement wall)."

 

 

 

This is where i specifcaly asked about how you locked at mode locks, where you just said that it is a problem with deep engagement mode locked reward categories. Here their was no mention of desirability.

 

When i wanted to test this with the fact that the skyscale satisfies basicly these three categories, deep engagement by multiple achievements, mode locked and a complete reward category.

 

"I would argue that the skyscale is a way worse problem objectivly then the legendary armour because it changes playstyle. Its not just a skin, its a category of mount which you can only aquire doing q very specific list of tasks"

 

 

you said.

 

"Yes, but it's locked behind the content that people that would be using Skyscale do actually play."

 

This is something you did not say earlier, something you expected me to interpret myself. and the only confussion came from you thinking you had already communicated something you had not before.

 

Now it could be thaat this conversation changed your mind or you actually forgot to word your complete opinion, and thats absolutely fine.

 

But dont say some bs about me interpreting to much in what you said. when the verifiable truth is the exact opposite.

 

 

46 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You are right. the design problem is the same. I will just not spend a lot of effort arguing for something that i don't see impacts anyone. Especially if i see noone that might really be impacted by it speaking up.

The same way like i don't argue for SPvP/WvW full legendary sets, but if some WvWer/SpvPer spoke up asking for those, i would support that.

I'm just a single person with limited energy and time. Don't expect me to address every single thing that is wrong with the world.

I dont expect you though though. Never said i did. 🙂

46 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

(also, again, things are not binary. I can see something as a theoretical problem, but not speak about it because i don't consider it big enough to significantly impact anyone. Me giving it a pass will not suddenly make it not a problem however)

I do not expect you to argue for everythin,g that would be silly, i expect you however when asked whether something is a problem because it has the same design problems as mentioned earlier you would say "yes,..." or "no, i forgot to add this or this piece of info" or "no, i had not considered that"

46 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, those are the three ways to solve those issues. Which one would be better is something very case-specific however.

BTW: the third suggestion is not really bad - in many ways it is very good. It just cannot be applied to many things. Basically, the reward must be something that lacks general desirability, and is basically meant only for the content it comes from.

Fractal potions, as well as title track and bonuses associated with it are a good example of this used in practice.

I meant bad as in for the envoy set it does not really looks like it will work. Also their are some more that i can think of , making things seem more accesible for example. I'm guessing their are even more i can't think of .

46 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

remember what i was saying earlier about shallow dipping vs heavy investment in the mode? It's not easy to set a precise limit, but in general that's the difference. If something requires heavy mode investment, it will get associated with said mode. If something requires only shallow contact with the mode, it will not.

150 LI for the first set, 300 for subsequent ones is not shallow investment. Neither are LS requirements for Aurora and Vision.

Yes, but theirs also not really shallow dipping in the hot metas etc. im not saying raids dont play a big part in the trinket, im saying that open world also does.

46 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Just looking at gifts is not enough, because gifts are not equal - each requires different amount of effort and content dedication.

 

 

Your metric seems to subjective to me, people who like a specific type of content will feel like that part is "easy". But the parts they dont like as timeconsuming. for example for you the raid part was probably the most timeconsuming, and for me that was provisioner tokens, and for my friend its chack eggs because he hates TD.

 

Also this metric would just result in saying that all legendaries are gold based legendaries (because the fortune part seems like the biggest block for most people for most legendaries.)

[Zalavaaris.5329]

4 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Yea, i agree with you here, Cyn didnt do any attacks in her? Post, and is even correct.

 

Vayne is also not a casual player, and may be one of the most hardcore players in the game, despite not doing raids.

 

However:

 

He is correct on one point above. "Raiders" by far and large talk down to anyone who doesnt do raids when it comes to this topic. No matter the reasons why. They even talk down to folks who do raids, but see the merits in a non raid armor set.

 

This post has been decently clean, thankfully. Posts in the past? Have absolutely not been, and it has set the mindset that you see repeated throughout this thread.

 

And even if most dont agree with the loud ones, their silence speaks volumes too.

 

I can't speak for all raiders, but I don't talk down to non raiders because they don't raid. Most of my friends don't raid so thats ridiculous. However people with a brain will talk down to entitled whiney children flaunting achievements that are most likely fake to make some kind of point. I'm sick of the entitled garbage, raider or not. If a raider came in here saying they are upset because they have to pvp for the legendary neck do you know what I'd say? I'd say either do the pvp or don't get the neck.... its not unique to a nonraider.... and don't even bring up the new legendary neck because I'll just change my example to the 2nd legendary ring which requires wvw to make. Had to jump in and stop that train of thought before some even goes there for a SECOND. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Sobx.1758]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You should read a bit and look at wnat exactly "equality of opportunity" means. Because any form of setting arbitrary criteria on reaching the goal, that have no connection to the goal itself, immediately disqualifies you from falling under that umbrella.

He doesn't need to and he proved the understanding of that fairly well in this post:

The opportunity to get the pve legendary armor is equal to everyone, which doesn't mean everyone will or should get it by default no matter what they do.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Xanadrine.4352]

16 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

I can't speak for all raiders, but I don't talk down to non raiders because they don't raid. Most of my friends don't raid so thats ridiculous. However people with a brain will talk down to entitled whiney children flaunting achievements that are most likely fake to make some kind of point. I'm sick of the entitled garbage, raider or not. If a raider came in here saying they are upset because they have to pvp for the legendary neck do you know what I'd say? I'd say either do the pvp or don't get the neck.... its not unique to a nonraider.... 

You are discounting that many of us have said we dont want an easy gimme leggy set. You are discounting that we dont want your transformer envoy set. Im sure there are people that do and want it handed to them, but thats not at all what I and others were advocating. There are very hard achievements in open world and even story mode, that even according to some posters in this thread the "bad players" cant do. What is being suggested by most IS a long hard chain of things you have to do to get pieces for a set. There is nothing entitled about it, im sure there was plenty of salt over wvw and pvp getting a leggy set, I seem to recall the the hate for so call easymode wvw esp getting it. 

Now its accepted, this is no different.

 

I have to add, that what we are asking for is a hard chain in the mode we play the most.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Zuldari.3940
added

[Zalavaaris.5329]

10 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

You are discounting that many of us have said we dont want an easy gimme leggy set. You are discounting that we dont want your transformer envoy set. Im sure there are people that do and want it handed to them, but thats not at all what I and others were advocating. There are very hard achievements in open world and even story mode, that even according to some posters in this thread the "bad players" cant do. What is being suggested by most IS a long hard chain of things you have to do to get pieces for a set. There is nothing entitled about it, im sure there was plenty of salt over wvw and pvp getting a leggy set, I seem to recall the the hate for so call easymode wvw esp getting it. 

Now its accepted, this is no different.

There's no way to offer envoy armor to non-raiders in a way that wouldn't devalue it other than people saving gold and dropping the thousands of gold required to pay for clears. Anything else will be an insult. 

 

EDIT: I actually HATE that you can buy your way to envoy armor. You should HAVE to do the content and be GOOD at it. I'd say it's TOO accessible. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[yoni.7015]

7 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

. There is nothing entitled about it, im sure there was plenty of salt over wvw and pvp getting a leggy set, I seem to recall the the hate for so call easymode wvw esp getting it. 

Now its accepted, this is no different.

 

 

I really can’t remember that there was much discussion or hate about it.