Thief mains need to riot. Like, seriously

[Roads.5130]

On 8/14/2021 at 5:03 PM, Tails.9372 said:

 

If nothing else that one should have been obvious, many players asked for an e-spec more focused on duelling and would have gladly given up some access to stealth for it. Now the "assassin like" dual sword e-spec guardians got is essentially what these people have been asking for all along and the remarks like "but you got access to stealth" feel like sarcasm to them.

And what prevents them from playing their dreamed spec? I mean they could go and create a Willbender, can't they? And isn't Daredevil precisely an e-spec more focused on dueling? I may be wrong since I haven't touched my daredevil since it became a storage character a while ago.

13 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

AHahahaha!
Good one!
Now do Guardian!

I can do another one for you, Willbender:
Note class name, its not a a guardian, its a willbender, its more to be played against thief mains who wanted to roleplay Shiro, their mere presence bends the will of their enemies so that they can't do anything but complain on the forums.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited August 16, 2021 by Acyk.9671

[Tails.9372]

28 minutes ago, Roads.5130 said:

And what prevents them from playing their dreamed spec?

 

The fact that it wouldn't be their "dreamed spec", overly generalised playstyles are not the only thing that differentiates the professions. If that would be the bar then we might as well delete the vast majority of professions / specs in the game because by that logic they wouldn't be needed anymore as other things often times already "fill that role". But just because another class can do "X" doesn't mean that they can do it with the exact same gameplay they're looking for as several of the underlying core mechanics are still vastly different.

[Roads.5130]

On 8/14/2021 at 5:03 PM, Tails.9372 said:

 

Now the "assassin like" dual sword e-spec guardians got is essentially what these people have been asking for all along and the remarks like "but you got access to stealth" feel like sarcasm to them.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

The fact that it wouldn't be their "dreamed spec", overly generalised playstyles are not the only thing that differentiates the professions. If that would be the bar then we might as well delete the vast majority of professions / specs in the game because by that logic they wouldn't be needed anymore as other things often times already "fill that role". But just because another class can do "X" doesn't mean that they can do it with the exact same gameplay they're looking for as several of the underlying core mechanics are still vastly different.

So let me see if I understand correctly, Guardians got what these Thieves have been asking all along for their new Elite Specialization, but Thieves won't play Willbender because it's not Thief class, so instead of being happy that they finally can get the playstyle they have wanted since they were born, these Thieves are mad because it's not how they wanted it?

Physical duelist on guardian is eww because it's a guardian.
Physical duelist on thief is eww because it's not about blocking, but dodging  ???

Edited August 16, 2021 by Roads.5130

[Tails.9372]

49 minutes ago, Roads.5130 said:

these Thieves are mad because it's not how they wanted it?

 

People are more disappointed than "mad" but let me summarize the actually relevant parts for you:

 

Players have been asking for "X" because they wanted "thief + X".

 

A-Net made "X".

 

A-Net gave "X" to guardian.

 

The players hoping for "thief + X" voiced their discontent because its reasonable to asume that A-Net is not going to give out "X" twice. Others felt stabbed in the back because A-Net nerfed thief several times for the sake of "balance" while now giving these exact same things to other classes.

 

Other players now come along and are like "lol whttya want? Isn't "guardian + X" not exactly what you've been asking for?".

 

Which about summes it up.

 

And the same could easily happen to other preffesions too. E.g. if the demon mask ends up standing for some kind of cultist based e-spec that summons demonic minions which are actually strong then you're almost guaranteed to see a decent amount of salt coming from many neco players for similar reasons.

[George.9745]

They are already stupidly OP what more do you want? Some people can never have enough..the greed is insane in you

 

[shrew.3059]

2 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

Physical duelist on guardian is eww because it's a guardian.
Physical duelist on thief is eww because it's not about blocking, but dodging  ???

 

Consider that Guardians are the most played profession in the game and Thief is one of the least played professions. To shift properties of the Thief to the Guardian can only serve to tip the balance further in that direction. Imagine a game where more than a third of the playerbase actively play the same profession; this is a sign of poor class design.

[Roads.5130]

 

 

4 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Players have been asking for "X" because they wanted "thief + X".

A-Net made "X".

A-Net gave "X" to guardian.

The players hoping for "thief + X" voiced their discontent because its reasonable to asume that A-Net is not going to give out "X" twice. Others felt stabbed in the back because A-Net nerfed thief several times for the sake of "balance" while now giving these exact same things to other classes.

Which is exactly my point and we seem to agree on this, the fact that Guardian got X does not mean Thief would have gotten X if they did not give it to Guardian first, precisely because:

6 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

just because another class can do "X" doesn't mean that they can do it with the exact same gameplay they're looking for as several of the underlying core mechanics are still vastly different.

So the problem is not "but but but they gave it to guardian" because what class 1 can do with spec X is vastly different from what class 2 can do with spec X. It is better if we start reframing the conversation from "let's riot because they got the candy we wanted" to "let's riot if the candy they give us sucks".

Edited August 16, 2021 by Roads.5130

[Roads.5130]

1 hour ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

Consider that Guardians are the most played profession in the game and Thief is one of the least played professions. To shift properties of the Thief to the Guardian can only serve to tip the balance further in that direction. Imagine a game where more than a third of the playerbase actively play the same profession; this is a sign of poor class design.

To shift properties from one of the least played professions to the most played profession can only serve to tip the balance further in that direction? No. 

Imagine a game where a playerbase is spread almost equally (with ~2% variance) among 9 professions, this is a sign of great class design.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Roads.5130

[shrew.3059]

6 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

To shift properties from one of the least played professions to the most played profession can only serve to tip the balance further in that direction? No. 

Imagine a game where a playerbase is spread almost equally (with ~2% variance) among 9 professions, this is a sign of great class design.

 

 

Sorry, I was perhaps unclear. My point was that such a move would further tip the balance towards the most played profession (i.e., it would increase the imbalance). I think we agree.

[shrew.3059]

7 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

So the problem is not "but but but they gave it to guardian" because what class 1 can do with spec X is vastly different from what class 2 can do with spec X. It is better if we start reframing the conversation from "let's riot because they got the candy we wanted" to "let's riot if the candy they give us sucks".

 

Sure, but I think it’s the combination that is the most frustrating. It would be one thing if everyone got bad candy, but those with the most candy got candy taken from those with the least. Obviously, if the Thief espec is great, it would go along way to restoring confidence.

[Cynz.9437]

Dear OP, Anet doesn't care. In fact, judging by the balance patches in the past it is safe to assume they don't even want thief players in this game. For years they kept adding reasons that made thieves undesirable in end game content (be it pve, pvp or wvw). When the company does everything so players using certain class become target of constant harassment it speaks tomes (i got told unspeakable things simply because i played the class, i couldn't raid until i rolled other classes, i won't even start on pvp and wvw.. and i can't even blame the community because the class is lackluster in many aspects and it is ON PURPOSE - i don't buy the crap about specific role and trade offs because this very crap is forgotten when Anet designs next espec for other classes).

 

For my part, i don't log in anymore and unless wonder happens, probably won't buy EoD for my accounts.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Cynz.9437

[SeTect.5918]

On 8/14/2021 at 8:01 PM, Rouien.5234 said:

Like I would theory-craft and say that thieves NEED a class that really sets them apart from the others because you have classes/specs that steal from them or just kinda do their job a little better.

One thing I wouldn't be upset about is if thieves got a true ninja spec or something where they just get like clones.

So i could understand this wrong and i am really sorry if this is the case, but did you just say that other classes steal from thief and suggested to give thieves clones? 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

10 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

So i could understand this wrong and i am really sorry if this is the case, but did you just say that other classes steal from thief and suggested to give thieves clones? 

It would be pretty cool to have clones as a thief... finally give mesmers a taste of their own medicen. But it's unlikely to happen.

[Rouien.5234]

On 8/24/2021 at 12:37 PM, Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

It would be pretty cool to have clones as a thief... finally give mesmers a taste of their own medicen. But it's unlikely to happen.

I wouldn't at all be mad. Thieves, need something 

[BobbyT.7192]

On 8/24/2021 at 1:37 PM, Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

It would be pretty cool to have clones as a thief... finally give mesmers a taste of their own medicen. But it's unlikely to happen.

Clones would be a Naruto meme, but at the same time I could see thieves rocking them.

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I've talked about this many times before, but the whole problem is the devs are obsessed with stealth on Thief, and keep balancing the entire class around it. Yes, we know it will always have the most generous access to stealth in the game, but also it needs to be able to do other things than just become invisible or escape sometimes.

 

I remember when you could play Daredevil just like any other class, you didn't even need stealth. But somehow they took a look at that and said "this isn't what the class is meant for", and we got nerfs and then.. Deadeye.

 

The next spec better be good to save this class from obscurity.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

27 minutes ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

Clones would be a Naruto meme, but at the same time I could see thieves rocking them.

 

Thieves are heavily influenced by Naruto, with their default starter gear being the headband, and there's abandoned skill names like Shadow Clones, as well as some of the guild insignias  being Sharingan designs, and more.

 

I don't know about the current team, but the original team were fans of the franchise.

 

A Mesmer-like Thief spec would be amasing.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/16/2021 at 4:31 PM, shrew.3059 said:

 

Consider that Guardians are the most played profession in the game and Thief is one of the least played professions. To shift properties of the Thief to the Guardian can only serve to tip the balance further in that direction. Imagine a game where more than a third of the playerbase actively play the same profession; this is a sign of poor class design.

Only if they exclusively play that profession. If everyone actively played three professions, a third of the playerbase actively playing a given profession would be the statistical expectation. 

[shrew.3059]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Only if they exclusively play that profession. If everyone actively played three professions, a third of the playerbase actively playing a given profession would be the statistical expectation. 

 

Not sure the math would work out on that, but the point is not that a profession is popular, that’s okay, the point is that the design of other professions and the game itself shouldn’t funnel players towards/away from certain professions.

[draxynnic.3719]

50 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

Not sure the math would work out on that, but the point is not that a profession is popular, that’s okay, the point is that the design of other professions and the game itself shouldn’t funnel players towards/away from certain professions.

Well, it depends on whether you define 'actively' as in "they're playing the profession RIGHT NOW" or "they spend a significant proportion of their playtime playing that profession".

 

If the latter, and if every player had three professions that met that criteria, then if those professions are distributed evenly, any given player would choose 3 out of 9 professions, giving them a 1 in 3 chance of picking any given profession. Therefore, you'd expect every profession to be played by 1/3 of the player base.

 

Of course, it doesn't work out that perfectly. Some people do play a single profession exclusively. Some rare people might well play everything equally. Most people would be somewhere in the middle, with some they play a lot and others they play less often. But the point is that you'd need to gauge how many players play multiple professions before saying that "one profession being played by 1/3 of the player base is a problem". If the most played profession is played "actively" by 1/3 of the player base and the least played by 1/4 because the numbers are fairly even and most people play more than one profession, that's not a big deal. If the most played is played by 1/3 and the least played by less than 1%, though, that would be clearly a problem. (Noting that revenant numbers may be artificially deflated due to the paywall.) 

[Nezekan.2671]

5 hours ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

Clones would be a Naruto meme, but at the same time I could see thieves rocking them.

 

Yes, lets take away the last unique thing mesmer has and proceed to delete the class.

[BobbyT.7192]

1 hour ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Yes, lets take away the last unique thing mesmer has and proceed to delete the class.

Your in the thief forum, your not getting any sympathy about class mechanics being used on other professions.

[ASP.8093]

I would very much enjoy being The Quickness Fairy, though.

[Nezekan.2671]

1 hour ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

Your in the thief forum, your not getting any sympathy about class mechanics being used on other professions.

If one class has had its identity butchered and given to other classes more than thief its Mesmer.

 

So, yes. I will.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Nezekan.2671