The Death of Thief - Page 12 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home PVP

The Death of Thief

167891012>

Comments

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    I believe the problem actually is Thief's runaway disengage potential.
    Thief can have far too much access to Stealth and mobility.
    In my opinion, that's were Thief should get nerfed in exchange for having more damage.

    The only reason they are able to do this is because of ini system.
    With no cooldown to gate, they can Blackpowder + Heartseeker as many times as they want until resource runs out.

    As a "tradeoff" (heh using Anet's favourite term), their skills have become weak over the years because they have been systematically "tweaked" to accommodate the fact they have no cooldowns gating proper resource management and as such can function at a much higher capacity than any other Profession (at least on the damage front)

    So we end up with a no cooldown profession with alot of very mundane "basic" abilities.
    Alot of Thief skills are literally Press X get X in nature.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    my idea for thief was that they would have skills with cooldowns as anyone else, but once per cooldown they would be able to bypass the cooldown and pay it in initiative instead. inc ini pool to like 100, have 5 ini reg/s. and skills cost ~40-60 ini depending on impact.
    that was thief has to know what their skills actually do instead of using only 2-3, maybe it would take some effort to play the class, also also. This would fix the stealth blast spamming, 6s while in combat, 12s out of combat if you switch between sets. Actually balanced.

    Make it 4 Ini resources that can only be refreshed by stealing, and recasting a skill already on cooldown consumes one.
    Trickery increases this to 6.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    my idea for thief was that they would have skills with cooldowns as anyone else, but once per cooldown they would be able to bypass the cooldown and pay it in initiative instead. inc ini pool to like 100, have 5 ini reg/s. and skills cost ~40-60 ini depending on impact.
    that was thief has to know what their skills actually do instead of using only 2-3, maybe it would take some effort to play the class, also also. This would fix the stealth blast spamming, 6s while in combat, 12s out of combat if you switch between sets. Actually balanced.

    Make it 4 Ini resources that can only be refreshed by stealing, and recasting a skill already on cooldown consumes one.
    Trickery increases this to 6.

    this or whatever, and they can expand upon the idea to extreme, eveyn something like. If you use X off cooldown its weaker, or if you use X off cooldown its stronger, so much potential, but instead we have kitten. no cooldowns and a mana bar, what a disgrace. worst mechanic out of all I have ever seen in any game.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    The people finding issue with Thief isn't in group v group.
    And any thief that shows themselves in a group v group gets dumpstered, and any group having a thief need to rely on the thief not fighting to pull their worth.

    It's all so utterly silly.
    Crazy idea but what if we got rid of Ini system and give Thief some actual skills with bite, but placing them on a cooldown?
    And everytime they Steal, they will by default refresh one of their skills?

    I mean pretty sure people are tired of having spammable weak skills right?

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    Why doesn't it, cuz u dont think it fits? Who made the rule high mobility= low burst?

    Lmao, Power Mesmer, Power Rev, Power Warrior, Power Soulbeast and even to some extent Power Holo literally defies the idea of "high mobility = low burst"

    Yeah they do as they should because it's only because of arguements regarding thief that some made up rule that high mobility means low bursts which is the opposite of what u see with any rogue archetype in every mmo etc which is low hp/armor, low sustained damage but high mobility and burst through teleports and other mean and usually if not always resort to those movements and gimmicks as a means to sustain itself ie stealth and ports etc. Nighblade in eso= stealth and teleportation, rogue in wow= stealth and teleportation, bdo ninja= stealth teleportation all with a high burst hit and run type playstyle and gw2 is and shouldn't be any different. That said just like the rogue like being similar in every mmo they also recieve the same complaints in every forum, except wow as it seems everyone has just except led the perma stealth gank playstyle of rogue and mostly complain when its cc or burst is to high like the beginning of pre patch where subs burst was bit overturned.

    Here is the deal with WoW rouges people complain less about them when they are killable, if the rouge got like 70% the HP of the character but that character turned around after the cc and did the same it feels fair even though the rouge had the opener, also you have a chance at revealing them before they start with AoE skills or anti stealth skills. Problem with thief in GW2 is that is not killable, if it wants to run away it can so as long as it does that it cannot fulfill the arch type that you want for it. Currently the Shiro Herald fulfills the arch type of the rouge for some reason, then again the stance is Legendary Assassin .

  • Ragion.2831Ragion.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    Anyone that played since launch knows that all the classes had to be balanced around thief. I imagine its not the same dev team anymore. The old team threw logic out the window in favor of class themes in such a way that every other class had to pass a thief survival test (which for a long time necro never did).

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2020

    @Xueyou.5746 said:

    im not gonna lie this post makes me kitten cringe

    Same here.

    Edit: Not your post, I agree with you.

  • boo hoo thief is so bad, When its so bad why was it meta for like almost the introduction of Ranked??

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    The people finding issue with Thief isn't in group v group.
    And any thief that shows themselves in a group v group gets dumpstered, and any group having a thief need to rely on the thief not fighting to pull their worth.

    It's all so utterly silly.
    Crazy idea but what if we got rid of Ini system and give Thief some actual skills with bite, but placing them on a cooldown?
    And everytime they Steal, they will by default refresh one of their skills?

    I mean pretty sure people are tired of having spammable weak skills right?

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    Why doesn't it, cuz u dont think it fits? Who made the rule high mobility= low burst?

    Lmao, Power Mesmer, Power Rev, Power Warrior, Power Soulbeast and even to some extent Power Holo literally defies the idea of "high mobility = low burst"

    my idea for thief was that they would have skills with cooldowns as anyone else, but once per cooldown they would be able to bypass the cooldown and pay it in initiative instead. inc ini pool to like 100, have 5 ini reg/s. and skills cost ~40-60 ini depending on impact.
    that was thief has to know what their skills actually do instead of using only 2-3, maybe it would take some effort to play the class, also also. This would fix the stealth blast spamming, 6s while in combat, 12s out of combat if you switch between sets. Actually balanced.

    The reason thief only uses 2-3 (usually fewer) is because the other ones are bad. With your suggestion, youd need to buff and rework a whole lot of skills. Seriously, headshot as a cooldown skill would be even worse than it already is, and poor S/D thief would be outright disfunctional. Or P/D thief, but people particularly hate that one, so eh. Oh and P/P thief would go from "unviable" to "troll build you should be reported for".

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    When the thieves in this thread started crying about how low their damage is, I stopped replying and tried to screenshot the damage I got when thieves attacked me.
    Right now, in my combat log, I see a list of these spammable skills that require 0 investment, defensive traitlines and apparently deal low damage

    5.7k backstab
    5.1k vault
    4.4k shadowshot
    8.6k backstab LMAO -this one probably used assassin's signet... there has at least one thief in this game that gets the damage, but actually invests something in offensive utilities-
    4.1k cloak and dagger

    If that doesn't do the trick, just dash somewhere safe, stealth and repeat until someone dies.
    I'd gladly ask again: may I get some low damage too? I'd really love if devs gave mesmer some low damage as well. Until I get some low damage too, if you can't kill anyone with thief I just think you need to get thinner fingers.

    EDIT got another 6.7k backstab rn

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xueyou.5746 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

    During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

      1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
      1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
      1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
      1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
      1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
      1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
      1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
      1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
      1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
    A: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
    B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

    The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

    I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

    im not gonna lie this post makes me kitten cringe

    If you can't read then just say that

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:
    When the thieves in this thread started crying about how low their damage is, I stopped replying and tried to screenshot the damage I got when thieves attacked me.
    Right now, in my combat log, I see a list of these spammable skills that require 0 investment, defensive traitlines and apparently deal low damage

    5.7k backstab
    5.1k vault
    4.4k shadowshot
    8.6k backstab LMAO -this one probably used assassin's signet... there has at least one thief in this game that gets the damage, but actually invests something in offensive utilities-
    4.1k cloak and dagger

    If that doesn't do the trick, just dash somewhere safe, stealth and repeat until someone dies.
    I'd gladly ask again: may I get some low damage too? I'd really love if devs gave mesmer some low damage as well. Until I get some low damage too, if you can't kill anyone with thief I just think you need to get thinner fingers.

    1.) Backstab can only be used 1 time every ~4 seconds.
    2.) Learn to dodge first off, but wow a thief can use Vault twice in a row and do exactly 10k damage and then be completely out of initiative?
    3.) Shadowshot is one of my favorite skills
    4.) Same as 1, and even then... Assassin's Signet can only be used on 1 Backstab so?
    5.) Probably one of the worst thief skills

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    @darren.1064 said:
    some rants about how thief needs a buff

    just thinner your finger

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    some rants about how thief needs a buff

    just thinner your finger

    So we all have to... Checks Notes "thinner our fingers" while the necros, guardians, revenants, eles and more can just button mash for high-damage, while still having plenty of sustain?

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    As if thief hadn't plenty of ways to access stealth (and the HP recover\condi cleanse\initiative regeneration it comes with) and blindness, and as if stealing from a mesmer didn't grant god-mode for 3 seconds, stealing from a ranger didn't grant a second HP bar (every 20 seconds; and that can be used twice if you trait for it)

    Thief doesn't need any buff, thief needs better players, it's a different thing.

  • Nerf thief more :) so OP.

  • The stealth system needs a rework like making their outline visible but their damage is reduced by 50% in stealth or domething. Their mobility needs to be slightly adjusted and their base damage buffed. Thief should be high risk high reward. They used to be low risk high reward now they are low risk low reward

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    The stealth system needs a rework like making their outline visible but their damage is reduced by 50% in stealth or domething. Their mobility needs to be slightly adjusted and their base damage buffed. Thief should be high risk high reward. They used to be low risk high reward now they are low risk low reward

    literally who does that benefit? projectiles wouldn't be able to land and neither would melee. AoE spammers would be the only people actually getting anything out of this.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @darren.1064 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    The stealth system needs a rework like making their outline visible but their damage is reduced by 50% in stealth or domething. Their mobility needs to be slightly adjusted and their base damage buffed. Thief should be high risk high reward. They used to be low risk high reward now they are low risk low reward

    literally who does that benefit? projectiles wouldn't be able to land and neither would melee. AoE spammers would be the only people actually getting anything out of this.

    good players would be able to land projectiles onto " stealthed " targets if they saw outliers.
    its cool to noscope stealthed thief with gs2 on mesmer :D

  • memausz.7264memausz.7264 Member ✭✭✭

    Wow this post did NOT age well. Kek.

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @memausz.7264 said:
    Wow this post did NOT age well. Kek.

    how did it not?

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭

    lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @felix.2386 said:
    lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

    I did see your "When are thief and holo going to get nerfed" post and laughed at how redundant it was, so good job for giving me a solid laugh based off your issues playing. Why don't you just go and learn to play and then come back.

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020

    @darren.1064 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

    I did see your "When are thief and holo going to get nerfed" post and laughed at how redundant it was, so good job for giving me a solid laugh based off your issues playing. Why don't you just go and learn to play and then come back.

    i'm thief/holo plat 2 soloq, what are you? ill dual you on both classes against your main so you can finally try to l2p your own main.
    actually ill dual your holo on my thief. so you can actually know how trash you are.
    PM me ingame

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @felix.2386 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

    I did see your "When are thief and holo going to get nerfed" post and laughed at how redundant it was, so good job for giving me a solid laugh based off your issues playing. Why don't you just go and learn to play and then come back.

    i'm thief/holo plat 2 soloq, what are you? ill dual you on both classes against your main so you can finally try to l2p your own main.
    actually ill dual your holo on my thief. so you can actually know how trash you are.
    PM me ingame

    I'll pass, I'm sure you'll whoop me. You're obviously so good at 1v1s and playing in GW2 that your grammar took a hit

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭

    @darren.1064 said:

    @felix.2386 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

    I did see your "When are thief and holo going to get nerfed" post and laughed at how redundant it was, so good job for giving me a solid laugh based off your issues playing. Why don't you just go and learn to play and then come back.

    i'm thief/holo plat 2 soloq, what are you? ill dual you on both classes against your main so you can finally try to l2p your own main.
    actually ill dual your holo on my thief. so you can actually know how trash you are.
    PM me ingame

    I'll pass, I'm sure you'll whoop me. You're obviously so good at 1v1s and playing in GW2 that your grammar took a hit

    Yea, my English skill is so related to the topic that you had to attack it in order to cover up your lack of skill.
    sorry, my English is like my 4th/5th language and it is self-taught.

    also i'm glad that you finally realize it's really your lack of skill that's the problem so shut up and keep the laughing to yourself, your gameplay will need it.

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @felix.2386 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @felix.2386 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

    I did see your "When are thief and holo going to get nerfed" post and laughed at how redundant it was, so good job for giving me a solid laugh based off your issues playing. Why don't you just go and learn to play and then come back.

    i'm thief/holo plat 2 soloq, what are you? ill dual you on both classes against your main so you can finally try to l2p your own main.
    actually ill dual your holo on my thief. so you can actually know how trash you are.
    PM me ingame

    I'll pass, I'm sure you'll whoop me. You're obviously so good at 1v1s and playing in GW2 that your grammar took a hit

    Yea, my English skill is so related to the topic that you had to attack it in order to cover up your lack of skill.
    sorry, my English is like my 4th/5th language and it is self-taught.

    also i'm glad that you finally realize it's really your lack of skill that's the problem so shut up and keep the laughing to yourself, your gameplay will need it.

    are you obsessively hyper-masculine in each language?

    Truthfully, as you can tell I really don't care. I've never seen you in a game and if I did then I've probably killed you. My thief just hit his 8th birthday and I have played 6000 rounds in ranked PvP so there's nothing I have to prove to you. If I play all of a season then I end in platinum within the top 100 because I know thief backwards and forwards lol, now I just happen to be a casual with less than 50 games because I don't like the direction that this game is going in.

    Now that we've established that, you hopping on forums and saying that thief is the most busted spec holds no weight. 1, because right now your opinion is invalid because I don't know you and can't trust that you're actually good. You might be in plat, but who's to say you don't use the exploit of playing late nights so you land in easier games and also playing with a duo. Saying you're in a specific tier does bring the "oh this person must be good!" to the front-view but lets be honest. Your rank hardly matters as there are different playstyles also. I prefer to play thief in a 1v1 style and have fun with my particular brand of play, however not only has thief gameplay been ruined by the February balance, the playstyles for several different classes-- not named necromancer, revenant and engineer-- have been ruined. As the balance was intended to bust people out of pigeonholed roles, it's functionality actually backfired. Now thief has the sole functionality of Forrest Gump; we run from point A to point B and back the entire round. Was this intended? Probably not. However, what are the problems that arise with this? Stacking of classes is a prevalent issue in GW2 PvP, say there are 3 tanky professions on 3 separate points. Home, mid, far are all covered. The function of Guild Wars 2 PvP has never been "Are you good or are you bad?" The function of Guild Wars 2 PvP has always been "How hard can you carry?" Now say that all 3 of these points are covered by 3 different tanky professions (something that happens frequently) and you're the 5th person on your team which means that your four teammates are all littered around the map presumably getting slaughtered or stalemated by the other team in this current wet noodle meta and what is the thief supposed to do in this situation? You can join your 4 teammates on the 99% likely mid fight, but then you're wasting your time as the other team quickly creeps up to 500 with very little resistance on the other two points. You can go sides, but what are you supposed to do if you're unable to land a kill? This is a situation that countless thieves find themselves in currently. This current meta is not for us and can never be for us.

    Now as I mentioned that there are various playstyles, maybe you have EXTREME luck with landing teammates that are not absolutely dead. Your team can land kills across the map without your assistance and you're delegated to the oh-so coveted decapper role. With Dash (if you have it) and shortbow 5 you can traverse the map without a single blemish or moment of having to stop. You are the ultimate force of reckoning and play thief to it's current peak-- the person that just runs back and forth but it unable to land a kill. So when this is the ideal situation for you, just running back and forth and occasionally hitting for a 4-5k Backstab in a +1 (or also missing and messing up the +1 and wasting time) is this more so the functionality of thief or is this just the luck that you have from playing with a team that is carrying the thief from being in the situation that I described in situation 1?

    Right now Guild War 2's ranked PvP question of "How hard can you carry?" does not apply to thief. Thief is merely the cherry on the top rather than a main ingredient in leading to wins. So now that I've explained this much to you, can you please tell me what about thief is busted about thief without using the words stealth and "shortbow 5" or dash? Because running fast is only an accomplishment for Usain Bolt as far as I'm concerned.