Stealth rework — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Professions

Stealth rework

Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 24, 2020 in Professions

I propose to stealth not stack duration, only refresh like it is with superspeed

As compensation skills that pulses stealth will get 5-6s stealth, pulses refresh duration
Revealed descrest from 3s to 2s
Revealed skills descrest from 6s to 5s
Your geting Reveled even if your attack get dodged/missed/blocked/eveded

All that changes gona apply to pve,pvp,wvw (for pvp/wvw durations can be diferent)

+That way you gona use stealth more offten, but more for changing position/fight pause
+Using multiple stealth skills at same time punishes you as you geting less stealth
+Perm stealth still will be posible but you need put more effor to it, same as you can't just run free with 18s stealth close to enemy as you got more chance to hit someone accidentally while you try refresh stealth

Basic hp of Guardian, Thief, Elementalist 11,645->12,824
Incresting health will allow that classes avoid Dead zone (many spells sometimes hit for 12-13k in pve as well)
->thief as new stealth gonna effect his fight style
->fb as his mantras suck now at pvp/wvw
->Elementalist but Glyph of Elemental harmony 6,614->5,214
That changes gona effect pve,pvp,wvw thats why i puted it more as overall discussion

Comments

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    IDK if I like it, but your proposal isn't unreasonable, imo. Good starting point for a discussion.

  • While I think that changing stealth to refresh duration wouldn't be a bad solution, I'd actually like to see stealth addressed from a mobility and evasion perspective first. As it stands, I feel it makes no sense that a player who shrouds themselves with invisibility can move as fast (or faster in some cases) than regular movement speed. As a concept defined by this game's mechanics, stealth isn't intangibility. There's still a person occupying physical space that still functions just like everyone else. Someone who's invisible running around like normal or even at 150% speed, often dodging around in a full set of armor would be a pretty loud, easy to spot target even without the ability to see them. Therefore, I think players taking advantage of stealth should be forced to be less mobile to maintain the guise of invisibility.

    I think it makes sense to adjust stealth in one or both of the following ways:

    • Stealth now reduces movement speed by anywhere from 15-25%. This is always 25% in pvp/wvw (Bonus movement speed granted by Meld in Shadows is reduced to 25%)
    • Entering stealth now applies exhaustion for its duration

    Applying the first change would apply a slight nerf to stealth mobility in pve, hopefully with the intention of reducing the ability for players to skip certain mechanics. The 25% nerf in pvp seems like a reasonable reduction in movement speed without becoming so restrictive that it would make it impossible to disengage imo. In addition, thieves would now have a unique advantage in stealth while taking shadow arts because they would be the only profession to be able to move at 100% speed while invisible. Nobody should ever be able to move faster than 100% speed in stealth.

    The second change would introduce an interesting limit to a player's ability to use stealth defensively, placing more of an emphasis on positioning and using stealth proactively to avoid attacks rather than dodging away in stealth reactively. Interesting strategies and counterplay opportunities would be opened by baiting dodges out of stealth to cripple an enemy's ability to use them while invisible.

    I'd also like to add that the application of these changes wouldn't be in a vacuum. If one or both of them proved to be too little, then I feel that stealth durations should be addressed like OP suggested. If certain professions, namely thief, feel like they're underperforming after these changes, then some buffs to trait and skills could help compensate, as well as reductions to skills that apply revealed.

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tempest.8479 said:
    While I think that changing stealth to refresh duration wouldn't be a bad solution, I'd actually like to see stealth addressed from a mobility and evasion perspective first. As it stands, I feel it makes no sense that a player who shrouds themselves with invisibility can move as fast (or faster in some cases) than regular movement speed. As a concept defined by this game's mechanics, stealth isn't intangibility. There's still a person occupying physical space that still functions just like everyone else. Someone who's invisible running around like normal or even at 150% speed, often dodging around in a full set of armor would be a pretty loud, easy to spot target even without the ability to see them. Therefore, I think players taking advantage of stealth should be forced to be less mobile to maintain the guise of invisibility.

    I think it makes sense to adjust stealth in one or both of the following ways:

    • Stealth now reduces movement speed by anywhere from 15-25%. This is always 25% in pvp/wvw (Bonus movement speed granted by Meld in Shadows is reduced to 25%)
    • Entering stealth now applies exhaustion for its duration

    Applying the first change would apply a slight nerf to stealth mobility in pve, hopefully with the intention of reducing the ability for players to skip certain mechanics. The 25% nerf in pvp seems like a reasonable reduction in movement speed without becoming so restrictive that it would make it impossible to disengage imo. In addition, thieves would now have a unique advantage in stealth while taking shadow arts because they would be the only profession to be able to move at 100% speed while invisible. Nobody should ever be able to move faster than 100% speed in stealth.

    The second change would introduce an interesting limit to a player's ability to use stealth defensively, placing more of an emphasis on positioning and using stealth proactively to avoid attacks rather than dodging away in stealth reactively. Interesting strategies and counterplay opportunities would be opened by baiting dodges out of stealth to cripple an enemy's ability to use them while invisible.

    I'd also like to add that the application of these changes wouldn't be in a vacuum. If one or both of them proved to be too little, then I feel that stealth durations should be addressed like OP suggested. If certain professions, namely thief, feel like they're underperforming after these changes, then some buffs to trait and skills could help compensate, as well as reductions to skills that apply revealed.

    These are feasible, but there's a hiccup that you probably didn't consider: You can grant stealth to others. Anet has always shown the philosophy that allied players musn't affect each other negatively, whether that's debuffs, damage taken, or anything else. For this reason, exhaustion, movement speed reduction, cooldown freeze, and other such changes are off the table as long as stealth is not always a personal choice.

  • I rather have perm stealth.. Only one ability and longer (30 sec) refresh

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lysico.1297 said:
    I rather have perm stealth.. Only one ability and longer (30 sec) refresh

    not saying it's a bad idea but having perm stealth tied to a long/30s cooldown might break Rifle DE's current pve rotation and may require a rework of Death's Judgement (maybe make it a non-stealth skill again or make it more powerful to account for less frequent stealthing) or it may end up not being used at all if not adjusted

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2020

    If u reduce movement speed in stealth u may as well delete the backstab mechanic cuz I'd rely on steal far too much and backstabs miss enough as it is and expect to land only ranged skills, that would be a massive mistake. Capping stealth at 6 sec is reasonable tho

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    First and foremost, Stealth needs to have more sources of being removed.

    Any attack should strip stealth, not only successful ones.
    Damage should also break stealth.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Damage should also break stealth.

    Wouldn't this functionally make any class that poops AOEs immune to sneak attacks?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Damage should also break stealth.

    Wouldn't this functionally make any class that poops AOEs immune to sneak attacks?

    I think that'd be fine.
    Stealth shouldn't be in PvP anyway.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2020

    I think it makes sense to adjust stealth in one or both of the following ways: Stealth now reduces movement speed by anywhere from 15-25%. This is always 25% in pvp/wvw (Bonus movement speed granted by Meld in Shadows is reduced to 25%) Entering stealth now applies exhaustion for its duration

    with reworked stealth, you no need it

    ther will be 2 typs of stealths

    a) is short 3s stealth
    b) long 6s stealth (aoe) that also pulse and refresh that 6s on evry pulse but that type of skills usualy have over 60s cd

    with 3s cap max you can do is change your location, than you need use another skill to apply stealth again after 2-3s (cuz of time cap)

    so it's risk/reward, as if you change location, you need be ready to attack your opponent before your stealth fade, or move away inaf far from enemy to apply another stealth
    some stealth skills can be activated witchout attacking enemys, but remeber still you need time them or your stealth time gona be much shorter,(so your cd refresh much longer compare when you spam all 5 stealth skills at one go)

    all that forcing you to pay attention more to your skills and steal 50% of your focus (or you can lose stealth for 1s making you visable)
    Prob for veterans thiefs thats not big change, but less skilled ones will have harder time to preper abush/backstab to you

    same as it will make you time your dodge/block or other skill as you allways will know that stealth is for 3s so ennemy will attack in next 2-3s or if he not show up, you know he wasted another stealth, so you can preper your next dodge/block/evade

    Remeber if enemy miss, he will get Reveled

    I rather have perm stealth.. Only one ability and longer (30 sec) refresh

    thats what anet admins/game master do xd
    but nah it culd be too much unbalanced until you make 3m circle zone if enemy get too close he can see you
    pass on that

    First and foremost, Stealth needs to have more sources of being removed. Any attack should strip stealth, not only successful ones. Damage should also break stealth.

    Disagree, that will nerf stealth spells too much

    with 3-6 stealth cap you will can use your brain more often to predict wher enemy will want go, and that will be part of that mechanic

    Also when you hiting stealth target you see that you casued dmg to "target" that way you can also tell that enemy is in front of you

    Making reveled on evry attack culd be too strong

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    @Noah Salazar.5430 said:
    that will nerf stealth spells too much

    That's exactly the point.
    Stealth has no business being as effective as it currently is in GW2.

    The only use Stealth should have is to sneak past enemies, or sneak up to them for one chance of a Stealth attack.
    And if they get hit while trying to do so, their chance is over.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Noah Salazar.5430 said:
    that will nerf stealth spells too much

    That's exactly the point.
    Stealth has no business being as effective as it currently is in GW2.

    The only use Stealth should have is to sneak past enemies, or sneak up to them for one chance of a Stealth attack.
    And if they get hit while trying to do so, their chance is over.

    They're not going to do it your way because it would mean having to sit there and redesign a whole class, root and branch, and a lot of people would hate them for it when they finished.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Noah Salazar.5430 said:
    that will nerf stealth spells too much

    That's exactly the point.
    Stealth has no business being as effective as it currently is in GW2.

    The only use Stealth should have is to sneak past enemies, or sneak up to them for one chance of a Stealth attack.
    And if they get hit while trying to do so, their chance is over.

    They're not going to do it your way because it would mean having to sit there and redesign a whole class, root and branch, and a lot of people would hate them for it when they finished.

    Actually, the reason they are not going to do it is that it would require a lot more effort than just changing numbers.

    Arenanet has repeatedly shown not to care about ruining professions and getting hated for it.
    Additionally, changing Shadow Arts into a defensive trait line, rather than a coward-runaway one, is far from redesigning the whole profession.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why not just have stealth make you look "transparent" to your foes when you aren't flanking/behind them and you are within 600 range? In PvE it won't change anything and in PvP/WvW it will just be a bit harder to abuse it. The reduced base movement speed while in stealth is a must as well, thought.

    Honestly I seem to recall that it's how swtor handle it and it work somehow.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Why not just have stealth make you look "transparent" to your foes when you aren't flanking/behind them and you are within 600 range? In PvE it won't change anything and in PvP/WvW it will just be a bit harder to abuse it. The reduced base movement speed while in stealth is a must as well, thought.

    Honestly I seem to recall that it's how swtor handle it and it work somehow.

    Because then it becomes almost as useless as after implementing fueki's idea.

  • the only valid rework is fix permastealth

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    most of your "reworks" mostly turn stealth into useless garbage, in GW2 most abilities can be cast without target, this means that transparent target will be hit with most skills anyways, the only problem with stealth is how much its stacked by combo fields by thief or when used in a big setting, having entire team stealth/restealth for 20s+ is kitten.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that. No need for overcomplicated reworks. Also, stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

    Once you do that, you can buff stealth as much as you want, since it would be far easier to counter now. The revealed effect can be removed for all I care.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

    Nope, it shouldn't, simple as that.

    Also, stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

    No, they shouldn't, because then what's the point of it?

    Once you do that, you can buff stealth as much as you want, since it would be far easier to counter now. The revealed effect can be removed for all I care.

    After implementing those changes how exactly would you want to "buff stealth as much as you want"? What exactly are you talking about here?

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

    This is a wonderful compromise that I'm sure we all agree on (finally). I'm sure the developers will see reason.

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

    I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst I believe that stealth as a gaming mechanic should be shut in a dark room and never mentioned again, I fear that I must compromise, and this, I suppose, is an okay-ish deal.

    This post contains my opinion.

  • Stealth is fine as it is ...I even think all these anti stealth thief mechs. r just laughable on top of noodle dmg. If u disagree show me ur stealth high lvl op gameplay video proof ... NO? Ok than kitten...

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    Stealth is fine as it is ...I even think all these anti stealth thief mechs. r just laughable on top of noodle dmg. If u disagree show me ur stealth high lvl op gameplay video proof ... NO? Ok than kitten...

    The fact that thieves, and almost exclusively thieves, have continually churned out said gameplay videos despite the introduction of anti stealth mechs says a lot about how ridiculous the mechanic is.

    This post contains my opinion.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

    This is a wonderful compromise that I'm sure we all agree on (finally). I'm sure the developers will see reason.

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

    I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst I believe that stealth as a gaming mechanic should be shut in a dark room and never mentioned again, I fear that I must compromise, and this, I suppose, is an okay-ish deal.

    Bait, sure, but where exactly is that "compromise" you're talking about here?

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2020

    Guys, i'm glad you try come up with your ideas

    But i wuld like that if you propose any change, it will be strictle to rework i proposed

    I think that cap on stealth solving it problem, same as don't hurt/nerf it too much (just make it hard to stack)
    And as compensation Thief hp is incresed 11,645->12,824 as he will be forced to fight more often
    As Revealed got decresed from 3s to 2s
    Thiefs will stealth->hit->stealth->hit
    What boost thay dmg evry time thay go to stealth what will cause thay will do more dmg then before
    But same as if thay will play more agresive, thay will be revealed more often as well

    your ideas nerf stealth to ground, what is not purpouse of that topic
    nerfing speed, or some kind of transparency are not nessesary with cap on stealth on, in my opinion
    As cd of stealth will be more readable, and with shorter time, you will can predict wher person go or is he used another stealth skill to stay stealthed for another 3-4s

    Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that. No need for overcomplicated reworks.

    Evry time thief attack you on stealth he geting Reveled, with my rework from now if he miss/or his attack will be blocked or eveded, his geting Reveled i think it's inaf
    Same as many class have acces to 5-6s Reveled skills
    class whos not have Reveled skills, usualy have stealth skills as well
    The only class whos culd get 5-6s Revled on one of skills culd be Elementalist

    But he have alot evedes and blocks, self-barrier skills, and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Final_Shielding + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earth's_Embrace when his hp drop to 50% so with that amount of def, i think it's not nessesary

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

    Nope, it shouldn't, simple as that.

    Remove the revealed effect, then make players lose stealth automatically once they deal/receive direct damage. It would no longer be a "cheat code", and you'd require skill to use it properly.

    Additionally, there could be a "reveal" boon that lets you see stealthed players without removing the stealth effect. Only those players with the boon would be able to see stealthed enemies. Also, this boon would also identify mesmer clones, letting you recognize the real one easier. Getting the blind condition would disable this boon.

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Also, stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

    No, they shouldn't, because then what's the point of it?

    The point is to make them easier to counter, total invisibility is OP and not fun. Thieves get a damage boost by attacking while stealthed, that's its main purpose, not invisibility.

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Once you do that, you can buff stealth as much as you want, since it would be far easier to counter now. The revealed effect can be removed for all I care.

    After implementing those changes how exactly would you want to "buff stealth as much as you want"? What exactly are you talking about here?

    You could extend stealth times far further, and maybe even allow real permanent stealth. You could also buff damage of attacks while stealthed.

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

    This is a wonderful compromise that I'm sure we all agree on (finally). I'm sure the developers will see reason.

    It's the way stealth works in many games. Total invisibility is not good game design.

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

    I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst I believe that stealth as a gaming mechanic should be shut in a dark room and never mentioned again, I fear that I must compromise, and this, I suppose, is an okay-ish deal.

    Stealth is fine but it needs natural gameplay counters, not dumb debuffs. You should be able to fight against a stealthed thief with any build, not just those who have reveal and AoE.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

    Nope, it shouldn't, simple as that.

    Remove the revealed effect, then make players lose stealth automatically once they deal/receive direct damage. It would no longer be a "cheat code", and you'd require skill to use it properly.

    Additionally, there could be a "reveal" boon that lets you see stealthed players without removing the stealth effect. Only those players with the boon would be able to see stealthed enemies. Also, this boon would also identify mesmer clones, letting you recognize the real one easier. Getting the blind condition would disable this boon.

    No, I disagree, don't remove the revealed effect, but balance it properly to apply when it should apply to force windows of stealth and forced visibility. Losing stealth on DEALING dmg is a thing and should be a thing (yup, including the "revealed" debuff). Considering how in gw2 you don't need a target for most skills and a lot of them are simply aoe, losing stealth on RECEIVED dmg is a terrible idea that renders stealth useless during the fight and short duration stealth whether in or out of fight is not a problem, so what exactly are you targetting here?
    What's problematic is perma/long duration stealth and if any change will be implemented (because there are tools to fight it, they're just not too convenient to use imo), it should target that area of stealth instead of "LUL I SPAM KITTEN AND YOU CAN'T USE YOUR CLASS MECHANIC, WE DID IT BOIS XD"

    Again, short duration stealth is not a problem and shouldn't be completely destroyed, because instead of targetting potentially problematic areas, you (and some other people on this forum in general) instead opt out for shotgunning the whole mechanic to put it out of existance. So no, it absolutely shouldn't reveal on dmg received, "simple as that".

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Also, stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

    No, they shouldn't, because then what's the point of it?

    The point is to make them easier to counter, total invisibility is OP and not fun. Thieves get a damage boost by attacking while stealthed, that's its main purpose, not invisibility.

    Short duration in-combat stealth is by far not "op" and your proposed changes -again- target wrong areas of the mechanic.
    Thieves literally have a whole set of abilities that they specifically use out of stealth. What you're promoting with this great change is people camping permstealth and trying to one-shot everyone from stealth after blinking from max range, which is the least interactive part of this whole complaint, while nerfing in-fight stealth to uselessness for no reason. Absolutely terrible proposals aimed at destroying whole mechanic instead of "balancing" anything like you try to claim.

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Once you do that, you can buff stealth as much as you want, since it would be far easier to counter now. The revealed effect can be removed for all I care.

    After implementing those changes how exactly would you want to "buff stealth as much as you want"? What exactly are you talking about here?

    You could extend stealth times far further, and maybe even allow real permanent stealth. You could also buff damage of attacks while stealthed.

    I have to admit that I've started replying "quote after quote" before I've read your whole post, but oof, you literally do what I wrote above. Targetting wrong areas of the mechanic, while promoting the least interactive gameplay while using it. Sorry, but that makes no sense.
    But hey, lets make stealth useless and then change it to permastealth on a click of a button so... uh... so players can sit stealthed in a corner whole game I guess. yay, we did it?

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    stealthed players should get a transparency effect instead of becoming completely invisible, so they can still be detected if you pay attention.

    This is a wonderful compromise that I'm sure we all agree on (finally). I'm sure the developers will see reason.

    It's the way stealth works in many games. Total invisibility is not good game design.

    Nothing about that is a "compromis". And gw2 isn't other games.

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Direct damage should remove stealth, simple as that.

    I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst I believe that stealth as a gaming mechanic should be shut in a dark room and never mentioned again, I fear that I must compromise, and this, I suppose, is an okay-ish deal.

    Stealth is fine but it needs natural gameplay counters, not dumb debuffs. You should be able to fight against a stealthed thief with any build, not just those who have reveal and AoE.

    Yeah, to go through blocks, you need unblockables. To dodge something, you need to dodge. To remove immobilize, cc or condies, you need removals/stab/stunbreaks. But stealth needing counter or offering natural windows of opportunity? Naaaaaah, NUKE IT!

    Step one: understand the actual problematic areas of the mechanic before you try to come up with "balance" changes that actually promotes the potentially unhealthy/uninteractive behavior while destroying the one that's actually ok.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2020

    So basically make thief even more defenseless? No ty. Sure give us blocks/invulns/stab/regen/cleanse/aegis and all kinds of sustain and you can then delete stealth in general. But nerfing stealth and not givin anythin back? No ty. Extra 1000hp won't help. Besides.. there's tons of methods how to reveal and even guards/sentries now reveal classes in stealth so.. what do you even want? It's been quite nerfed already. So how about give those free 1k HP and leave stealth as it is?

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2020

    So basically make thief even more defenseless? No ty.

    @Dave.6819
    You still will can almost perm stealth, but you will need to do all stuff at motion
    Don't forget that Deadeye have 2s stealth evry dodge also

    Extra 1000hp won't help

    it will do, as if you decide build some def stats, you will need spend less of them, and have more attacking one

    there's tons of methods how to reveal and even guards/sentries now reveal classes in stealth so.. what do you even want? It's been quite nerfed already. So how about give those free 1k HP and leave stealth as it is?

    yes, with that change that skills will rather be used to pinpoint you insted to guess wher you are

    as it will be more profitalbe to you fight more often thx to shorter Reveled, same as you risk less with more hp

    you still can chose style of silent asasint to wait 17s for one burst combo, but now you will make more "noise" and it gona be bit harder for you but posible with bit of skill

    from skimrisher point of viev, if thief will no need stealth that much to kill (cuz more dmg cuz of shorter reviled), he will use steath rather for short duration just to change angle from wher his next attack came and boost dmg of that attack, or use stealth more rapidly just to buff dmg

    Whith more agresive thief gameplay, you will be also seen more often, and it will allow better to predict wher you gona go attack next

    that is my concept

    buff skirmisher, nerf a stacking stealth assasin

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noah Salazar.5430
    I suggest you play heroes of the storm, play nova or zeratul.
    They both have stealth through which they can be seen, damage instantly reveals them, attacking or even missing reveals them.
    Their stealth is almost useless, and its for lore reasons more then anything. And I am talking of a game where everyone has 4 skills and most of them cant even target area to hit them yet the stealth is useless anyways, in a game like gw2 where every single class will have at LEAST 10 different ways to hit stealth target when they know EXACTLY where they are the entire concept is a bust.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    I suggest you play heroes of the storm, play nova or zeratul. They both have stealth through which they can be seen, damage instantly reveals them, attacking or even missing reveals them. Their stealth is almost useless, and its for lore reasons more then anything. And I am talking of a game where everyone has 4 skills and most of them cant even target area to hit them yet the stealth is useless anyways, in a game like gw2 where every single class will have at LEAST 10 different ways to hit stealth target when they know EXACTLY where they are the entire concept is a bust.

    @Leonidrex.5649
    That is why i was not support "transaprency" and was against it

    " know EXACTLY where they are"

    No you can't, you can only try predict wher peson go while is on stealth
    You can hit 1-2 times by aoe attack, but the longer time pass, it's harder to track that person
    Also rember that tief have alot dashes or shadowsteap to prevent it

    Target get no Revealed if YOU hit him
    Target get Revealed only if he attacked you while his on stealth

    I add only "If Target miss his attack(while his on stealth), he geting Revealed same like it was with normal hit(miss while attacking you not air)"

    most of your "reworks" mostly turn stealth into useless garbage, in GW2 most abilities can be cast without target, this means that transparent target will be hit with most skills anyways, the only problem with stealth is how much its stacked by combo fields by thief or when used in a big setting, having entire team stealth/restealth for 20s+ is kitten

    Superspeed treatment schold prevent it, in same time not nerfing stealth, as you will just need use stealth skill at motion (mean you will need use them one by one, insted all at once for +20s)

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Another problem with Stealth is alot of the Professions that do utilize it have absurd mobility.

    If a Thief Stealths, it's basically a reset.
    And they can get back to yu way faster than yu can run/catchup to them plus their weapon cooldowns are already up because they essentially don't have any.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    Another problem with Stealth is alot of the Professions that do utilize it have absurd mobility. If a Thief Stealths, it's basically a reset. And they can get back to yu way faster than yu can run/catchup to them plus their weapon cooldowns are already up because they essentially don't have any.

    Evry class have some kind of dash, or way to prevent it with imobilize

    Also if target run, you both end up alive

    Even if target have alot mobility, he need stay close to you to hit you risking his life
    The more he want kill you, the eazier is for you to kill him even with that much mobility

    Expections culd be Druid, Soulbeast,Deadaye,Holo/Scrapper
    With same reason why range skills have bit lower dmg then melee, or in Holo/Scrapper couse granades/Mortar have bit of travel time, and attacks are not binded to target

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Why not just have stealth make you look "transparent" to your foes when you aren't flanking/behind them and you are within 600 range? In PvE it won't change anything and in PvP/WvW it will just be a bit harder to abuse it. The reduced base movement speed while in stealth is a must as well, thought.

    Honestly I seem to recall that it's how swtor handle it and it work somehow.

    I know a lot of games which works this way also they give you the option either perma stealth troll or DPS with some stealth. Was mentioned a few times while Arena.NET was great for developers looking in what players suggest on boards. I think they stopped with this since so many left the company.

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Another problem with Stealth is alot of the Professions that do utilize it have absurd mobility.

    If a Thief Stealths, it's basically a reset.
    And they can get back to yu way faster than yu can run/catchup to them plus their weapon cooldowns are already up because they essentially don't have any.

    Why is it so hard to be coherent when posting?

    Initiative system replenishes at 1 per second.

    If they decide to evac ooc they waste all their initiative then gotta wait and use em again to come back. And then what? They are out of juice and your cooldowns are ready.

    If they waste Shadowstep/Return and/or Roll for Initiative, to escape, if they decide to come back too soon then they are out of stunbreaks, gg, you can nuke em.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    Stealth is fine as it is ...I even think all these anti stealth thief mechs. r just laughable on top of noodle dmg. If u disagree show me ur stealth high lvl op gameplay video proof ... NO? Ok than kitten...

    Noodle damage?
    -thief farts out 5-6k damage using backstab, sometimes higher, then proceeds to fart out 3-4k heartseekers because lower health-
    yep, noodle damage.
    Oh, not to mention that if you miss your stealth attack, just try again 4Head because no pentalty for missing your burst.
    Oh, not to mention thieves have multiple sources of stealth TO try again from if you ever miss your bursts.
    Oh, not to mention that thieves have means to gap close if you disengage but want to re-engage because your enemy let an opening show.
    Oh, not to mention that thieves are singlehandedly THE most desired assassin in the game, even currently beating power rev, whom btw still has pretty high damage, most notably on sword 3 and 5.

    Last I checked, 5k wasn't noodle damage, it's actually pretty heavy of a hit in one go.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2020

    @aleron.1438 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Another problem with Stealth is alot of the Professions that do utilize it have absurd mobility.

    If a Thief Stealths, it's basically a reset.
    And they can get back to yu way faster than yu can run/catchup to them plus their weapon cooldowns are already up because they essentially don't have any.

    Why is it so hard to be coherent when posting?

    Initiative system replenishes at 1 per second.

    If they decide to evac ooc they waste all their initiative then gotta wait and use em again to come back. And then what? They are out of juice and your cooldowns are ready.

    If they waste Shadowstep/Return and/or Roll for Initiative, to escape, if they decide to come back too soon then they are out of stunbreaks, gg, you can nuke em.

    Yeah, I've wanted to respond with something similar, but seeing how some people try to claim thief has no cds/resources at all so they can do everything, all the time non-stop got pretty old already.

    And stealth is paired with mobility, because outside of overly long duration applications, it isn't nearly as good or oppressive as some people try to claim.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why is it so hard to be coherent when posting?

    Initiative system replenishes at 1 per second.

    If they decide to evac ooc they waste all their initiative then gotta wait and use em again to come back. And then what? They are out of juice and your cooldowns are ready.

    If they waste Shadowstep/Return and/or Roll for Initiative, to escape, if they decide to come back too soon then they are out of stunbreaks, gg, you can nuke em.

    This is assuming they even need to void ALL their resources in order to get OOC.

    Thieves are able to easily get out of reach of most Professions without doing so, and they even have Shadow Return and Steal to get back into combat immediately at effectively no cost, and Steal with Trickery also restoring Initiative.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    We don't need to "nerf" th stealth. I would propose this change (although i would require some mechanical changes):

    3 different type of invisibility effects

    Stealth / invisibility has the main problem is basically overpowered in this game. It is a mechanic with no real counter play as the only real counter to this mechanic is revealed. Providing more revealed would cause a cascade effect where effects would remove revealed and then it would come a stronger revealed which can not be removed by that effect. We can see than with Shadow Meld (bad idea for a elite) and the natural consequence Marked effect.

    Thief : Make use of the shadows.

    • Stealth caused by shadow magic / blasting smoke fields should have a minimal threshold to be effective. A toon using stealth would be visible to enemies which are within 600 units of him. This effect is dynamic and applied constantly as the thief would be visible for as long as it is within that threshold but as soon as it moves out of the range it would become invisible.
    • Thief could have a trait to reduce that range to 400 or 300. The objective of this change is to allow the thief to disengage but not to allow those high burst from stealth (backstab would be an example) . Still using shadow steps could mimic the actual effects., but at that point it would require some skill to pull it off.
    • Stealth becomes an offensive utility instead another defensive one as the thief has already many defensive effects (high mobility, teleports, evades).
    • To balance this stealth duration from skills can be extended 1-2s .

    Mesmer : It's all in the mind of the observer.

    • Invisibility which is the effect provided by mesmers works the other way around. Invisibility makes the mesmer to be invisible to enemies within the range threshold. All the enemies within 600 units can not see the mesmer and this works the same way as stealth, the effect is consistently applied.
    • There could be mesmer a trait to allow to extend that range to 900. The objective is to allow the mesmer to hide between the clones to confuse the enemies as defensive mechanic, but as soon as it gets to certain range the illusion disappears.
    • Invisibility becomes a defensive utility this way.

    DeadEye : Ambush from the shadows

    • Deadeye has the challenge that binds the high burst damage with a long range (1500). It also brings more access to stealth when dodging and an elite which can remove revealed. This spec was designed to bring some range to the thief class at the drawback of being more static. That didn't happen as DeadEye has still access to shortbow and other tools from core, as such is still highly mobile and with an even easier access to stealth with a much longer range.
    • DeadEye should lose access to any form of Stealth effect although still have access to core tools and smoke fields, any stealth applied to a deadeye would be automatically transform to Camouflage.
    • Camouflage would have no threshold but while under this effect the deadeye can not perform any action or be revealed.
    • Camouflage is identified as stealth when having in mind traits and utilites.
    • In exchange for this all stealth applications which are transformed to camouflage the effect is increased by 3s by application.
    • DeadEye could extend that additional effect duration with a trait to 6s.
    • This would allow DeadEye while keeping high stealth uptime to have the limitation of not being able to perform actions without losing the invisibility effect. This will enforce the gameplay of being a ranged hard hitting but static class. It should reveal the DE as soon as it uses the skills and not when apply damage as such No more Death Judgements from nowhere.
    • Thus once solved the one shot bursts from nowhere damage for the DE can be buffed again, the same as reworking the malice stacks to work with an enemy tagged and no need to hit him. This malice stacks charged over time (slowly) and are reset when the target is over 1500 units, is out of LoS or the DE changes target.

    Other classes could have different effects applied to their skills depending on their objective :

    • Hunter's Shot could apply stealth.
    • Toss Elixir S could apply invisibility.
    • Sneak Gyro could apply stealth.
    • Celestial Shadow could apply invisibility.
    • etc....
  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    Why is it so hard to be coherent when posting?

    Initiative system replenishes at 1 per second.

    If they decide to evac ooc they waste all their initiative then gotta wait and use em again to come back. And then what? They are out of juice and your cooldowns are ready.

    If they waste Shadowstep/Return and/or Roll for Initiative, to escape, if they decide to come back too soon then they are out of stunbreaks, gg, you can nuke em.

    This is assuming they even need to void ALL their resources in order to get OOC.

    Thieves are able to easily get out of reach of most Professions without doing so, and they even have Shadow Return and Steal to get back into combat immediately at effectively no cost, and Steal with Trickery also restoring Initiative.

    Meanwhile your assumption is that they don't use any resources to go toe-to-toe during the initial fight, then can get OOC, chase the target back and win a fight all without using up the resources until the very last momen. I guess the opponent only has "W" key on their keyboard.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    We don't need to "nerf" th stealth. I would propose this change (although i would require some mechanical changes):

    3 different type of invisibility effects

    Stealth / invisibility has the main problem is basically overpowered in this game. It is a mechanic with no real counter play as the only real counter to this mechanic is revealed. Providing more revealed would cause a cascade effect where effects would remove revealed and then it would come a stronger revealed which can not be removed by that effect. We can see than with Shadow Meld (bad idea for a elite) and the natural consequence Marked effect.

    Thief : Make use of the shadows.

    • Stealth caused by shadow magic / blasting smoke fields should have a minimal threshold to be effective. A toon using stealth would be visible to enemies which are within 600 units of him. This effect is dynamic and applied constantly as the thief would be visible for as long as it is within that threshold but as soon as it moves out of the range it would become invisible.
    • Thief could have a trait to reduce that range to 400 or 300. The objective of this change is to allow the thief to disengage but not to allow those high burst from stealth (backstab would be an example) . Still using shadow steps could mimic the actual effects., but at that point it would require some skill to pull it off.
    • Stealth becomes an offensive utility instead another defensive one as the thief has already many defensive effects (high mobility, teleports, evades).
    • To balance this stealth duration from skills can be extended 1-2s .

    You literally said your change would not allow for using the class mechanic (stealth attacks) for dealing meaningful dmg, but still "allow to disengage", you even propose extending stealth duration(???) and then... you... uh... you wrote "Stealth becomes an offensive utility instead another defensive one"? :lol: By what logic exactly did you come up with this statement?

    I can't stress this enough: your change makes absolutely no sense and targets wrong areas of the mechanic, expanding on the uninteractive elements while nerfing where it's already not even strong.

    btw. your DE avatar is also a pretty obvious bait while you keep spamming ranger ingame.


    Apparently not much changed since April:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1221463/#Comment_1221463

    I expect as much of a response from you this time as well. So... none.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    btw. your DE avatar is also a pretty obvious bait while you keep spamming ranger ingame.

    I like this avatar and i do play with DE from time to time. I don't know why peeps get the impression that avatar = only play that class.
    Obviously i have more experience with ranger and that's why i'm more vocal with that class because i know it better. You can see it in my signature, don't need to do detective work.

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    You literally said your change would not allow for using the class mechanic (stealth attacks) for dealing meaningful dmg, but still "allow to disengage", you even propose extending stealth duration(???) and then... you... uh... you wrote "Stealth becomes an offensive utility instead another defensive one"? :lol: By what logic exactly did you come up with this statement?

    I can't stress this enough: your change makes absolutely no sense and targets wrong areas of the mechanic, expanding on the uninteractive elements while nerfing where it's already not even strong.

    I didn't explained myself clear enough i hope this one does the trick.
    Bear with me:

    • The thresholds are there to show your character not to reveal your character . While you have the buff of stealth in your bar you can perform sneak attacks ( backstab, tactical Strike, etc... ) even when seen by the target as you are not revealed. And as soon as you get out of the threshold you go back to be invisible to that target as you are not revealed. They can show your character as full model or with the transparent model we usually see if they want to keep the RP theme.
    • There should be trait to reduce the range of that threshold, as such less experienced thieves can use that trait to perform easier sneak attacks.
    • Thus you as a thief will need to planify the approach better and not to be able to perform sneak attacks for free from stealth with no counter.
    • As such Stealth becomes an offensive utility : You use it to approach a target and not to go into stealth when the attack failed and get to reset the combat for free.
    • Thief has access to shadow steps and teleports as such it is still possible to skip those 600 units. The difference now is the thief needs to use more than the autoattack to land a backstab.
    • To allow the thief to look for that optimal approach thus increasing the stealth duration for 1-2s in skills which apply stealth is recommended.
    • But the most important point is : The thief is not revealed when is seen by enemies within the range threshold. Same for invisibility. It only gets revealed debuff for the same means as the class get it right now.

    DeadEye can have some issues with malicious backstab as that skill needs to be in range but because the camouflage effect it can not move. It has 2 choices: To wait for the target to come in range (as the camouflage duration is much longer) or to use the rifle reposition skill to get closer to the target.

    The objective of this changes is to stop with the low skill gameplay the thief has: blasting smoke and go walking to a target who can't hit you has no gameplay and no place in any PvP gamemode. If what you are asking is to keep the free kills, well we are not going to agree on that one.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    btw. your DE avatar is also a pretty obvious bait while you keep spamming ranger ingame.

    I like this avatar and i do play with DE from time to time. I don't know why peeps get the impression that avatar = only play that class.
    Obviously i have more experience with ranger and that's why i'm more vocal with that class because i know it better. You can see it in my signature, don't need to do detective work.

    I don't look at people's forum signatures and from what I remember your avatar change was about the time you started comming up with your "non-extreme stealth solutions" that mostly rendered the mechanic useless, so... Yeah, what you claim here might be true, but that's such a great coincidence that I'll stick with my assumptions here anyways :D

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    You literally said your change would not allow for using the class mechanic (stealth attacks) for dealing meaningful dmg, but still "allow to disengage", you even propose extending stealth duration(???) and then... you... uh... you wrote "Stealth becomes an offensive utility instead another defensive one"? :lol: By what logic exactly did you come up with this statement?

    I can't stress this enough: your change makes absolutely no sense and targets wrong areas of the mechanic, expanding on the uninteractive elements while nerfing where it's already not even strong.

    I didn't explained myself clear enough i hope this one does the trick.
    Bear with me:

    • The thresholds are there to show your character not to reveal your character . While you have the buff of stealth in your bar you can perform sneak attacks ( backstab, tactical Strike, etc... ) even when seen by the target as you are not revealed. And as soon as you get out of the threshold you go back to be invisible to that target as you are not revealed.

    In this game in most cases "showing a character" is as good as "revealing the character". Stealth that doesn't stealth is pretty worthless.

    And it changes nothing about what I said about targetting wrong areas of the mechanic, expanding on the disengage/long duration/permastealth and stupidly nerfing short stealth applications during combat. This change just doesn't make sense and is aimed at gutting the mechanic where it shouldn't even be touched, while obviously keeping it intact as a long range defensive mechanic for... yup, ranger. Yeah, yeah, I know, such an awful coincidence again.

    • There should be trait to reduce the range of that threshold, as such less experienced thieves can use that trait to perform easier sneak attacks.

    "less experienced thieves", ok :lol:
    Also that's way too vague to properly judge.
    Also you target some area of the mecahnic with your "balance change" and then immediately propose to add a trait to... mitigate that very same change. Seems a bit silly to me.

    • Thus you as a thief will need to planify the approach better and not to be able to perform sneak attacks for free from stealth with no counter.

    Planify? All that change does is encourage even more perma stealthing and backstabing immediately after gapclosers. Again, targetting wrong areas of the mechanic, absolutely terrible change.

    • As such Stealth becomes an offensive utility : You use it to approach a target and not to go into stealth when the attack failed and get to reset the combat for free.

    It doesn't "become offensive utility" any more than it already is. What load of kitten is this? It makes it unusable outside of long duration stealth combined with gapclosers while make it unusable close range in-combat, where it already isn't strong except for the duration itself. Yup, duration, which you proposed to buff.

    And what do you mean you don't use it to reset combat for free? You proposed to buff stealth duration, it's literally even stronger as a combat reset after your change, because it requires less resources to stack longer duration.

    • Thief has access to shadow steps and teleports as such it is still possible to skip those 600 units. The difference now is the thief needs to use more than the autoattack to land a backstab.

    It already needs to use more than autoattack. You don't play the class and it shows.

    • To allow the thief to look for that optimal approach thus increasing the stealth duration for 1-2s in skills which apply stealth is recommended.

    Awful change, already wrote multiple times why -both above and in the previous posts.

    • But the most important point is : The thief is not revealed when is seen by enemies within the range threshold. Same for invisibility. It only gets revealed debuff for the same means as the class get it right now.

    The most important point is: In this game in most cases "showing a character" is as good as "revealing the character". Stealth that doesn't stealth is pretty worthless.
    But we can't forget about: You don't play the class and it shows.

    If you think that short duration in-combat stealth is a problem then you have some catching up to do, because that's simply wrong.

    DeadEye can have some issues with malicious backstab as that skill needs to be in range but because the camouflage effect it can not move. It has 2 choices: To wait for the target to come in range (as the camouflage duration is much longer) or to use the rifle reposition skill to get closer to the target.

    I already responded to that last time you wrote this silly idea and you left it without an answer.
    But the point remains the same:
    -you're targetting wrong areas, probably because you don't understand the class and the mechanic itself.
    -nerfing stealth where it doesn't need nerfs, buffing uninteractive perma-stealthing
    -making a stealth literally for the purpose of standing still for some reason(?????) -seriously, what kind of genious idea is this?
    -changing malice back to what it was (and it was changed to the current version for a reason btw), further encouraging passive/uninteractive gameplay even more. Resetting malice outside of 1500 range (or when breaking LoS -LOL) is just a cherry on top of this... uh... cake. (heeeeey, ranger can shoot from above 1500 range, what a great change! pewpewpew, run back, whole class mechanic denied for free :D )

    The objective of this changes is to stop with the low skill gameplay the thief has: blasting smoke and go walking to a target who can't hit you has no gameplay and no place in any PvP gamemode. If what you are asking is to keep the free kills, well we are not going to agree on that one.

    Encouraging permastealthing and passively building malice while in stealth = "stop with the low skill gameplay". What are you even talking about?
    You don't play the class. Stop pretending you understand what you're talking about, your idea about this mechanic is awful and -again- definitely target wrong areas.

    If you even want to pretend you try to agree on anything, then answering to what I write would be a good place to start. For now you just keep repeating the same thing without acknowledging what I wrote multiple times already.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    We don't need to "nerf" th stealth. I would propose this change (although i would require some mechanical changes):

    3 different type of invisibility effects

    Stealth / invisibility has the main problem is basically overpowered in this game. It is a mechanic with no real counter play as the only real counter to this mechanic is revealed. Providing more revealed would cause a cascade effect where effects would remove revealed and then it would come a stronger revealed which can not be removed by that effect. We can see than with Shadow Meld (bad idea for a elite) and the natural consequence Marked effect.

    Thief : Make use of the shadows.

    • Stealth caused by shadow magic / blasting smoke fields should have a minimal threshold to be effective. A toon using stealth would be visible to enemies which are within 600 units of him. This effect is dynamic and applied constantly as the thief would be visible for as long as it is within that threshold but as soon as it moves out of the range it would become invisible.
    • Thief could have a trait to reduce that range to 400 or 300. The objective of this change is to allow the thief to disengage but not to allow those high burst from stealth (backstab would be an example) . Still using shadow steps could mimic the actual effects., but at that point it would require some skill to pull it off.
    • Stealth becomes an offensive utility instead another defensive one as the thief has already many defensive effects (high mobility, teleports, evades).
    • To balance this stealth duration from skills can be extended 1-2s .

    You literally said your change would not allow for using the class mechanic (stealth attacks) for dealing meaningful dmg, but still "allow to disengage", you even propose extending stealth duration(???) and then... you... uh... you wrote "Stealth becomes an offensive utility instead another defensive one"? :lol: By what logic exactly did you come up with this statement?

    I can't stress this enough: your change makes absolutely no sense and targets wrong areas of the mechanic, expanding on the uninteractive elements while nerfing where it's already not even strong.

    btw. your DE avatar is also a pretty obvious bait while you keep spamming ranger ingame.


    Apparently not much changed since April:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1221463/#Comment_1221463

    I expect as much of a response from you this time as well. So... none.

    I know sounds strange but as someone whose poked around these forums since 2018, maybe 2017 cant remember exactly, I've noticed a very vocal mesmer and a engi who have been adamant on constantly posting nerf thief threads, is always in every nerf thief thread and even turn most nerf x class threads into nerf thief threads now posting as thief mains asking for nerfs to their own soposed main class. There's also another who joins every thief nerf threat stating their a thief main anytime a builds in question to state how obscene the damage on said builds are and how they should be nerf hammered, cuz people usually do this regarding their mains on a continual basis right? Like they think no one notices. Honestly hard to believe players are actually trying to use tactics to get the class they dislike nerfed in a dam.n game lmao. Sad kinda.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    ......

    i see you are very passionate about this class and it seems you are very afraid of any change which could be perceived as nerf.
    I get it we won't meet eye to eye, obviusly thief is not my main but i have been in your situation when I see some nerf threads in the ranger forum.

    Either way I'd like you to consider your play style wouldn't change much, you would take the trait to reduce the range to 300 and that is melee range, you would be invisible up until then last instant.

    This change in the mechanics would bring also a lot of good to the balance in general, for example Celestial Shadow and stealth uptime on the Druid would be fixed with this change. Also trapper DH and any trapper build.

    But you want to keep playing your thief like until today with no changes and I get it.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    ......

    i see you are very passionate about this class and it seems you are very afraid of any change which could be perceived as nerf.

    I feel it's important to clear up what I'm actually "passionate" about here and it's the fact that you dodge answering anything I wrote while you share the same change from a couple months back that defies your claims of what it is supposed to achieve.

    I'm also not "very afraid of any change which could be perceived as nerf" -duh, I've made my case in one of the WvW threads in the past which consisted of a nerf to long duration stealth, which makes it... yup, just a nerf. Based on that I'll say you're wrong about your guess here.
    The thing is that you're not trying to balance or even simply nerf problematic areas of stealth, you're gutting it for one class you -I assume- dislike. And it's the class you're using the avatar of while at the same time you're pretty clearly not even playing it.

    I get it we won't meet eye to eye, obviusly thief is not my main but i have been in your situation when I see some nerf threads in the ranger forum.

    Stop pretending you want to "meet eye to eye". If you wanted that, you'd start responding to what I wrote. Meanwhile all you did was quote my post and then just repeat what you've already said before without addressing anything from my posts.

    And no, you were not "in my situation", because that's not the "situation" I'm in. You can literally find posts in thief subforum when I'm opposed some thief buff ideas or where I say some nerfs weren't that bad or were even deserved and I'm being called a thief hater :lol: Stop putting me in one bag with you "when you see some nerf threads in ranger forum", because that's not it.

    Either way I'd like you to consider your play style wouldn't change much, you would take the trait to reduce the range to 300 and that is melee range, you would be invisible up until then last instant.

    Nah, you're wrong, already wrote why.
    And in return I'd like you to read what I've already wrote in my posts above and start addressing that instead of repeating same irrelevant kitten.
    I already answered to this great point of yours, let me quote it again for you:
    "Also you target some area of the mecahnic with your "balance change" and then immediately propose to add a trait to... mitigate that very same change. Seems a bit silly to me."

    This change in the mechanics would bring also a lot of good to the balance in general, for example Celestial Shadow and stealth uptime on the Druid would be fixed with this change. Also trapper DH and any trapper build.

    No, it wouldn't. Start answering to what I wrote, thanks.

    But you want to keep playing your thief like until today with no changes and I get it.

    Nah, I play more than just the thief. I literally told you why your idea makes no sense. Hopefully I also told you why your picture of me is incorrect.
    Now stop dodging and pretending you know what you're talking about. Start answering instead -and preferably start with the previous posts, not this one.

  • I don't think stacking stealth is the problem. That's just good game sense.

    What the problem is the deadeye one-shot kill from stealth then remove revealed and stealth again to stomp.

    A fix would be to make it so that that one skill which removes revealed locks all skills and interactions for half of your remaining stealth period, puts you in combat, and gives you exhaustion.

    Also, for anyone who is stealthed, getting hit by any aoe will remove stealth, but not reveal you; note that you must actually take damage, get cc'd or otherwise be affected by an enemy effect to lose stealth. If you evade the aoe, your stealth will be preserved. Having resistance and taking condition damage or snares will remove stealth, as will having stability and getting hard cc'd. But you cannot be invulnerable and stealthed at the same time.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    Not being able to restealth while inflicted with dots could be a legit way to tone down stealth. Thst said if taking any damage reveals thief and if dots prohibits thief from stealthing thief would definitely deserve to actually get its power damage spikes back so it actually feels like a burst class again, as of now unless heavily booned up and with help of outside boons is the only way ur back stab doesn't tickle tanky classes which is crazy thief being thee burst spec. Yeah in wvw it can do high dps in full power build with boons but high sustain tanks can match that burst anyway these days. I think some people forget when a thief stacks stealth and moves to the real of its enemy for that 1 back stab shot the thief had to use quite a bit of its global skill resources.
    Legit how many classes/builds can get 3.5-4k at the cost of one key/skill press resulting in 1 cd? Off to of my head rapid fire, ghastly claws, deathstroke, list goes on and on but thief backstab given it's set up does what it does lol that's sad.