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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there.

    Not weird to me. Dragon of fire gets more powerful the more fire there is, and if it makes more fire then yeah, its going to get stronger from that.

    Physics, though? I know, Tyria has magic, but still, even an Elder Dragon shouldn't be able to practically infinitely grow its own magic from basically nothing. Fire has to have something to burn, otherwise it should go down at some point.

    What was interesting is that Taimi advised that this is an ability amplified by Kralkatorrik’s death, as his connection between himself and his branded. Wonder if this one of his crystal abilities being passed onto Primordus and Jormag...

  • Once IBS ends, the only systemic issues left in Tyria/Elona are the ghost problem in Ascalon, and the Inquest being up to no good. There really just isn't much left for us to do in Tyria right now. Even if there is no big story hook into it, there is no reason for us to not immediately go "lets go to Cantha and kill Bubbles to end this" to ride the momentum and finish the job we started back in core.

    I think needing a big story reason, like Jormag manipulating everyone into forcing us out, is over thinking a simple issue.

    I think once the "dragons" are dealt with the God will want to come back or actually come back and then maybe that creates other hosts of problems from demons/the mists/ and other world- remember Shattered Observatory? We could def face extradimensional creepers from the mists...or the worlds the Gods left to?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    What was interesting is that Taimi advised that this is an ability amplified by Kralkatorrik’s death, as his connect between himself and his branded. Wonder if this one of his crystal abilities being passed onto Primordus and Jormag...

    If Arenanet wants to play this card, they also need to play its other side.
    Since crystals also were Kralkatorrik's weakness, Fire should now be one of Primordus' weaknesses and Ice one of Jormag's weaknesses.
    This means they are both each other's and their own weakness.
    But this could also lead to Bangar getting revenge for becoming Jormag's voice, since he would be its weakness.
    And Braham gets his bow back, which would now also be one of Primordus' weaknesses.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    I think once the "dragons" are dealt with the God will want to come back or actually come back and then maybe that creates other hosts of problems from demons/the mists/ and other world- remember Shattered Observatory? We could def face extradimensional creepers from the mists...or the worlds the Gods left to?

    I don't think the human gods will want to come back. Even before the dragon business they were pulling away because the incident with Abbadon showed that direct interference was doing more harm then good, and when we went to confront Abbadon the gods were like "na, y'all can do it!". Kormir pretty much gave us this same answer during Balthazar's little rampage. If anything, I think that would just further prove to them that staying was bad.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    What was interesting is that Taimi advised that this is an ability amplified by Kralkatorrik’s death, as his connect between himself and his branded. Wonder if this one of his crystal abilities being passed onto Primordus and Jormag...

    If Arenanet wants to play this card, they also need to play its other side.
    Since crystals also were Kralkatorrik's weakness, Fire should now be one of Primordus' weaknesses and Ice one of Jormag's weaknesses.
    This means they are both each other's and their own weakness.
    But this could also lead to Bangar getting revenge for becoming Jormag's voice, since he would be its weakness.
    And Braham gets his bow back, which would now also be one of Primordus' weaknesses.

    Maybe that’s a bit of the point now, what was a weakness to Kralkatorrik, isn’t a weakness to Jormag and Primordus, which unfortunately results in an Elder dragon taking what should have been a weakness and making it a strength. It also sounds like destroyers become more rabid the more they burn, so is the Fury Domain rearing it’s head too?

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    One thing I noticed.

    • We have 5 Primordus based DRMs
    • We have 2 Jormag based DRMs
    • The trailer for chapters 1/2 show that the upcoming Bloodtide Coast, and Caledon Forest, DRMs are Jormag based

    I'm going to guess that the Fireheart Rise DRM is also Jormag based, so its an even 5/5 for each, hence Chapter 3's title being "Balance". Jormag is going to keep stepping up its game to stay matched with Primordus. Then they go head to head in Chapter 4 Judgement.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Also it is a bit sad Owl is now dead. I was hoping to see more of her but guess death is a better fate than being corrupted to a Elder Dragon.

    Don't forget Owl's cryptic comment about the Spirit's being able to guide the fall.

    This one line has convinced me that we will see another Dragon die by the end of Icebrood Saga or very early in End of Dragons.
    And that Dragon will likely be Jormag.
    Aurine also mentioned in this episode that another opportunity will present itself and it was said that both Dragons will need to be dealt with.
    Braham also being the Norn of Prophecy a "harness" as owl put it, destined to kill or be killed by Jormag..

    So what does that tell me?

    The combined Spirits of the Wild will be able absorb the magic unleashed by Jormag's Death by using Braham as a catalyst to absorb it.
    Back in Gw1 we saw Kormir absorb the power of a God thanks to the aid of the 7 Human Gods, so we know a mortal can absorb a massive amount of magical energy under the right circumstances and ascend from that infusion of magic.

    I do not think Braham will become a God in any way Im just using Kromir as an example to a similar but different event.
    I do think he may become something different, a Norn of great power perhaps but nothing too ridiculous, he'll very much remain a mortal man, he'll just be a bit more than the average Norn which he kinda already is anyway being the Norn of Prophecy and all.
    The Spirits are the ones most interesting in this scenario.. will they absorb this power and become even more powerful than they are? or will they follow in Owl's footsteps and sacrifice themselves to absorb Jormag's magic and save the world?.. that's the real question.

    So yeah, I think Owl just dropped us a big hint that the Spirits of the Wild can/will allow us to kill another Elder Dragon by taking the "hit" so to speak when their magic is unleashed.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Spirits are the ones most interesting in this scenario.. will they absorb this power and become even more powerful than they are? or will they follow in Owl's footsteps and sacrifice themselves to absorb Jormag's magic and save the world?.. that's the real question.

    So yeah, I think Owl just dropped us a big hint that the Spirits of the Wild can/will allow us to kill another Elder Dragon by taking the "hit" so to speak when their magic is unleashed.

    The spirits, as a group, could also become the replacement for Jormag (and possibly Primordus).

  • I think when the war between Primordus and Jormag escalates even more, Aurene might sacrifice herself for maintaining balance between the forces, effectively taking 3 dragons off the board. - Remaining Deep Sea Dragon will lead us to Cantha.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Keidnard.9170 said:
    I think when the war between Primordus and Jormag escalates even more, Aurene might sacrifice herself for maintaining balance between the forces, effectively taking 3 dragons off the board. - Remaining Deep Sea Dragon will lead us to Cantha.

    That's....terrible. I hope the writers and Anet aren't so incompetent as to kill off Aurene (AGAIN) after years of setting her up as a Allied Elder Dragon.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Spirits are the ones most interesting in this scenario.. will they absorb this power and become even more powerful than they are? or will they follow in Owl's footsteps and sacrifice themselves to absorb Jormag's magic and save the world?.. that's the real question.

    So yeah, I think Owl just dropped us a big hint that the Spirits of the Wild can/will allow us to kill another Elder Dragon by taking the "hit" so to speak when their magic is unleashed.

    The spirits, as a group, could also become the replacement for Jormag (and possibly Primordus).

    The writers have been dropping hints all saga about the spirits of the Wild and now with Owl talking about “the Fall” and Braham being a way of
    channeling that magic, I’m still of the mind set that the Spirits will contain Jormag’s magic.

  • Zola.6197Zola.6197 Member ✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    An accelerated story is to be expected, but I did not anticipate Jormag becoming hostile toward us this soon. I figured the ruse of a 'truce' would be drawn out till chapter 3 or 4, but I suppose we don't have that kind of time.

    I think you and others misinterpret what Jormag is still doing. Jormag still hasn't lied nor become "hostile." Its basically white lies. I'm here to protect you and this world! (which is true but now we know this means covering people and the world in ice forever.) Ryland has told us that they havn't actually killed anyone just preserving them. Sure, icrbrood are attacking TO preserve us in ice and when you are attacked you defend yourself (even mobs). Its basically a calculated step on their part to undermine our efforts to stop Jormag and now we really are caught between the two.

    No, I’m not misinterpreting that. That’s been clear from the start. I’m saying it’s a shame “the jig is up” so soon. It’s obvious Jormag was never our friend and that trusting them was never an option, but this is unquestionably a hostile action we can’t abide. The dialogue in the DRM indicates the perverseness we view Jormag’s perspective with in this manner, and we’ll be fighting their forces to prevent their “protective” measures from now on. Even if it’s not hostile by Jormag’s measure, it is by ours. I had hoped we could let the tension simmer longer before things inevitably went sideways, but there’s obviously not time for that.

    Anyway, I liked this patch a lot more over all that the previous one. I just wish they didn’t have to artificially stretch Champions out over months.

  • Keidnard.9170Keidnard.9170 Member ✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Keidnard.9170 said:
    I think when the war between Primordus and Jormag escalates even more, Aurene might sacrifice herself for maintaining balance between the forces, effectively taking 3 dragons off the board. - Remaining Deep Sea Dragon will lead us to Cantha.

    That's....terrible. I hope the writers and Anet aren't so incompetent as to kill off Aurene (AGAIN) after years of setting her up as a Allied Elder Dragon.

    Not killing her, just sealing her somewhere, like in a statue or sanctum, where she cant act actively anymore because she has to focus maintaining the balance. Maybe she could still guide players through telepathy. - Actually it's not much different compared to her current behaviour ... imho she could just be too mighty in her current state if she would be an active force in the future. Even more so if she would absorb Jormag's and/or Primordus' power. Sealing her away would bring her off the board in an elegant way, so we have to face future threads without her active help.

    But i agree, they are dropping a lot of hints towards the spirits of the wild. They will have an important role for sure.
    Let's see what the next episode-parts will bring, but im sceptical if there is enough room for epic story telling within 2/4 of an episode.
    Hopefully they don't kill an elder dragon in a DRM or offscreen .

  • Grand Marshal.4098Grand Marshal.4098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    Final Chapter, Primodus rises to the surface and Jormag flies inside a storm of cold and ice. As they prepare to fight one another, Menzies the absolute unit arrives and fights Primordus to force him undeground and sap some of his powers, while Grenth jumps in from the mists and restrains Jormag. Anise has given the Commander the Shining Blade and Lazarus' soul within it directs the energy of the dragons to the remains of the Bloodstone, so they go back to sleep. Grenth winks at us and leaves and Menzies chills in the Ring of Fire praised by all the races. Lazarus is still alive in the shining blade and we are rdy for Cantha.

    Not bait, legit 100% info from inside the studio.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Also it is a bit sad Owl is now dead. I was hoping to see more of her but guess death is a better fate than being corrupted to a Elder Dragon.

    Don't forget Owl's cryptic comment about the Spirit's being able to guide the fall.

    This one line has convinced me that we will see another Dragon die by the end of Icebrood Saga or very early in End of Dragons.
    And that Dragon will likely be Jormag.
    Aurine also mentioned in this episode that another opportunity will present itself and it was said that both Dragons will need to be dealt with.
    Braham also being the Norn of Prophecy a "harness" as owl put it, destined to kill or be killed by Jormag..

    So what does that tell me?

    The combined Spirits of the Wild will be able absorb the magic unleashed by Jormag's Death by using Braham as a catalyst to absorb it.
    Back in Gw1 we saw Kormir absorb the power of a God thanks to the aid of the 7 Human Gods, so we know a mortal can absorb a massive amount of magical energy under the right circumstances and ascend from that infusion of magic.

    I do not think Braham will become a God in any way Im just using Kromir as an example to a similar but different event.
    I do think he may become something different, a Norn of great power perhaps but nothing too ridiculous, he'll very much remain a mortal man, he'll just be a bit more than the average Norn which he kinda already is anyway being the Norn of Prophecy and all.
    The Spirits are the ones most interesting in this scenario.. will they absorb this power and become even more powerful than they are? or will they follow in Owl's footsteps and sacrifice themselves to absorb Jormag's magic and save the world?.. that's the real question.

    So yeah, I think Owl just dropped us a big hint that the Spirits of the Wild can/will allow us to kill another Elder Dragon by taking the "hit" so to speak when their magic is unleashed.

    Inb4 braham goes full on "there must always be a lich king" absorbs the power of jormag and get encased in ice.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    I think once the "dragons" are dealt with the God will want to come back or actually come back and then maybe that creates other hosts of problems from demons/the mists/ and other world- remember Shattered Observatory? We could def face extradimensional creepers from the mists...or the worlds the Gods left to?

    I don't think the human gods will want to come back. Even before the dragon business they were pulling away because the incident with Abbadon showed that direct interference was doing more harm then good, and when we went to confront Abbadon the gods were like "na, y'all can do it!". Kormir pretty much gave us this same answer during Balthazar's little rampage. If anything, I think that would just further prove to them that staying was bad.

    I do think we may get involved with Gods again but not the ones we know about. The Human Gods that are worshipped we know about are only worshipped within the regions been in since GW1. However, that is only about 20% of the entire planet. There are probably other civilizations beyond and probably have Gods of their own. We may explore into these unknown regions and new civilizations once the Elder Dragon Storyline finally ends sometime either after EoD or after the living world after EoD since it will be unknown territory for everyone.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    I do think we may get involved with Gods again but not the ones we know about. The Human Gods that are worshipped we know about are only worshipped within the regions been in since GW1. However, that is only about 20% of the entire planet. There are probably other civilizations beyond and probably have Gods of their own. We may explore into these unknown regions and new civilizations once the Elder Dragon Storyline finally ends sometime either after EoD or after the living world after EoD since it will be unknown territory for everyone.

    I certainly hope, the current Arenanet won't touch them ever again.
    The last time they did, they utterly ruined one and forced us to kill him.
    The only god current Arenanet could possibly portrait accurately is Kormir, and that's because she wasn't a decent character to begin with.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Spirits are the ones most interesting in this scenario.. will they absorb this power and become even more powerful than they are? or will they follow in Owl's footsteps and sacrifice themselves to absorb Jormag's magic and save the world?.. that's the real question.

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The spirits, as a group, could also become the replacement for Jormag (and possibly Primordus).

    I'm gonna have to agree with Fueki here. Icebrood Saga has constantly pushed the notion that the Spirits are beings of incredible, if not limitless, magical powers. While consumption of too much magical energy typically leads to ley infused bounty monsters, the Spirits are one of the few things in Tyria that I could reasonably see shouldering the power of an Elder Dragon, and serving as new forces to maintain the balance alongside Aurene.

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    I do think we may get involved with Gods again but not the ones we know about. The Human Gods that are worshipped we know about are only worshipped within the regions been in since GW1. However, that is only about 20% of the entire planet. There are probably other civilizations beyond and probably have Gods of their own. We may explore into these unknown regions and new civilizations once the Elder Dragon Storyline finally ends sometime either after EoD or after the living world after EoD since it will be unknown territory for everyone.

    The Human gods were incredibly powerful beings from another world, and the Elder Dragons have long been presented as Tyria's equivalent, or near so. I find it unlikely there are more beings of equal, or even near equal, power on Tyira. Or else the Elder Dragons would be off trying to kill them to take their powers. Any god involvement is most likely going to come form Lyssa, who likely never really left, or only half left since she is a twin.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Spirits are the ones most interesting in this scenario.. will they absorb this power and become even more powerful than they are? or will they follow in Owl's footsteps and sacrifice themselves to absorb Jormag's magic and save the world?.. that's the real question.

    So yeah, I think Owl just dropped us a big hint that the Spirits of the Wild can/will allow us to kill another Elder Dragon by taking the "hit" so to speak when their magic is unleashed.

    The spirits, as a group, could also become the replacement for Jormag (and possibly Primordus).

    That's pretty much what I was getting at yes, or will they sacrifice themselves to eliminate the power entirely..
    Im leaning far more towards the former of those options as well but I won't rule out the possibility of them sacrificing themselves to kill Jormag once and for all.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    The Human gods were incredibly powerful beings from another world, and the Elder Dragons have long been presented as Tyria's equivalent, or near so. I find it unlikely there are more beings of equal, or even near equal, power on Tyira. Or else the Elder Dragons would be off trying to kill them to take their powers. Any god involvement is most likely going to come form Lyssa, who likely never really left, or only half left since she is a twin.

    Remember the Human Gods appeared during the time when all Elder Dragons were a sleep and remained unaware of Elder Dragon's existence until their awakening.

    they have also kept their influence only to the region we have known since GW1 which is only 20% of the entire planet and has never explored beyond these regions themselves from our current knowledge. We also learn that there are suggestions of other Human civilization before the arrival of the Humans that worship the 7 gods we know now. Such developments is bound to lead into different civilizations that worship other Gods even if those Gods are created from stories that have been overly exaggerating mortals that have done incredible things.

    Our understanding of Tyria and the cultures have been very limited to only the knowledge of the places we have known since GW1.

    To assume the 7 Gods are the only Gods that manage to find Tyria from the Mist is a debatable topic in general since we know so little about other civilizations beyond the locations we know about now.

    The Elder Dragons have also been locked within the regions of GW2. Their entire plan is to conquer the region we play in now before moving on to the remaining 80% of the world. If there are other Gods beyond in the other Civilizations we have not seen yet then the current plan for Elder Dragons are most likely to save them for after establishing the place we play in as their main base of operations before moving on to them or they remain unaware of other Gods existance since the Elder Dragons have all been so focused on capturing the location where we have been playing in for so long.

    I honestly, won't be surpised once we enter these other civilizations that they may make a "Elder Dragon what?" and "What do you mean the world almost ended? You must be crazy." type of thoughts and statements since only the regions we have been playing in since GW1 had to face the wrath of the Elder Dragons. Along with being the only defense against the Elder Dragons from destroying the world since if the Commander and his/her allies fails here in the regions we will play in up to EoD then the entire world will be doomed.

    Speaking of which, it has always been strange how majority of the Elder Dragons, except Bubbles, awaken right in a location within the region we have played in since GW1 or atleast very near these locations. Though I always assume that is because the location we play in now was their final battle spot before falling asleep in the previous cycle.

    Primordus awakened in the Deep right under the GW1 Prophecy/GW2 Core game location.

    Zhaitan is Orr.

    Mordremoth is the Maguuma jungle

    Jormag is the Shiverpeaks

    Kralkatorrik is in the Blood Legion homeland.

  • But i agree, they are dropping a lot of hints towards the spirits of the wild. They will have an important role for sure.
    Let's see what the next episode-parts will bring, but im sceptical if there is enough room for epic story telling within 2/4 of an episode.
    Hopefully they don't kill an elder dragon in a DRM or offscreen .

    Just like the Pale Tree to Mord -should we assume the Spirits of the Wild are "good" dragon champs?!

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have to agree myself that it felt a bit cheap bringing Owl back and then Killing Her Off For Real so soon afterwards. Feels a bit like they just pulled a Status Quo Is God, and makes me suspicious about what's likely to happen to the other lost spirits.

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there.

    Not weird to me. Dragon of fire gets more powerful the more fire there is, and if it makes more fire then yeah, its going to get stronger from that.

    Physics, though? I know, Tyria has magic, but still, even an Elder Dragon shouldn't be able to practically infinitely grow its own magic from basically nothing. Fire has to have something to burn, otherwise it should go down at some point.

    That's not what's actually going on, however (and, perhaps, fortunately).

    The full loop is:

    *Destroyers burn things
    *Primordus gets more powerful
    *Primordus uses that power to create stronger Destroyers
    *The stronger Destroyers go looking for more things to burn
    *Repeat

    The source of additional power is the destruction caused by the, well, Destroyers. He can't just sit idly while a feedback loop gives him more and more power - he has to send the destroyers out to get more fuel. If there was nothing to burn, Primordus would not be able to strengthen himself that way.

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    To assume the 7 Gods are the only Gods that manage to find Tyria from the Mist is a debatable topic in general since we know so little about other civilizations beyond the locations we know about now.

    I think, however, that there is the factor that the gods needed to move due to some cataclysm that overtook their original world. There may be other sets of equivalents of gods or elder dragons on other worlds, but as long as the worlds they dwell on remain intact, they likely have no incentive to come to Tyria.

  • @Svennis.3852 said:
    The dialogue in the DRM indicates the perverseness we view Jormag’s perspective with in this manner, and we’ll be fighting their forces to prevent their “protective” measures from now on.

    The way Jormag is thinking, this perverse logic. It make me assume that Jormag is severely afflicted with torment just like Kralkatorric was. It seems to have manifested itself differently, making it harder to identify, but it really seems like it is there.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I have to agree myself that it felt a bit cheap bringing Owl back and then Killing Her Off For Real so soon afterwards. Feels a bit like they just pulled a Status Quo Is God, and makes me suspicious about what's likely to happen to the other lost spirits.

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there.

    Not weird to me. Dragon of fire gets more powerful the more fire there is, and if it makes more fire then yeah, its going to get stronger from that.

    Physics, though? I know, Tyria has magic, but still, even an Elder Dragon shouldn't be able to practically infinitely grow its own magic from basically nothing. Fire has to have something to burn, otherwise it should go down at some point.

    That's not what's actually going on, however (and, perhaps, fortunately).

    The full loop is:

    *Destroyers burn things
    *Primordus gets more powerful
    *Primordus uses that power to create stronger Destroyers
    *The stronger Destroyers go looking for more things to burn
    *Repeat

    The source of additional power is the destruction caused by the, well, Destroyers. He can't just sit idly while a feedback loop gives him more and more power - he has to send the destroyers out to get more fuel. If there was nothing to burn, Primordus would not be able to strengthen himself that way.

    And the loop seems to be a new ability that Primordus got from Kralkatorrik.

  • lets bring in a new idea: what if Primordus and Jormag are connected twins like dragonball's gods of life and destruction, and that when we klill Primordus, Jormag dies too, both of them just dont know (yet) this will happen