Make condi engi great again - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home PVP

Make condi engi great again

2>

Comments

  • ellesee.8297ellesee.8297 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    .

    Again a build is good if it can keep up with the meta. You will not out-attrition any side noder as a condi engi side node build. You will lose 99% of those fights against anyone even remotely competent. A fire weaver can do everything a condi engi can do but exponentially better. Spellbreakers, scrappers, and prot holos deal massive damage to you while shrugging off the miniscule amount of damaging conditions you can apply. Druids will easily outsustain you and cap the point from right under your nose. You will die instantly if you get +1'd. You will also not impact team fights at all as a slow condi engi attrition build. You neither have the mobility to roam nor do you do any kind of damage when you plus. It's just not good.

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    You don't want condi engi to be good. You want it to be broken, just say it.

    You can read my proposed changes to condi engi. Would that make it broken?

    I also don't care about how well a proposed condi engi build could do against bad players in unranked. I can play a kill shot warrior and go 50-0 in unranked. It doesn't make kill shot warrior good. When I say a build is good, I mean it performs well against good players. A build like fire weaver isn't broken, but it performs well against good players in its role, and the tools it has to perform that role heavily outclasses that of a condi engi. More cc, more sustain, more condi damage, more power damage, more defensives, etcetcetcetc.

    To sum it up, it's not that a condi engi has to do more to achieve the same results. That's true, but it's not an issue. The issue is is that if condi engi had some kind of objective best loadout, it would also be objectively inferior to a loadout of every single other class for their role. That is what makes condi engi bad.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I want core engi buffs as much as the next guy, but there are some things here that are objectively wrong. And I think this one statement exemplifies best where you might be misguided

    @ellesee.8297 said:
    A fire weaver can do everything a condi engi can do but exponentially better.

    A fire weaver has pretty good sustain and pressure, but it falls far behind core engi in three main areas.

    1. Fire Weaver is an extremely short ranged build with limited mobility. They need to be up in your face to land the bulk of their damage while a core engi can easily output pressure from range. This is noteworthy because this allows them to kite off node while still pressuring their opponent. It also means that your opponent will need to kite further away if they want to escape your pressure. Effective range makes a huge difference and is not to be understated.
    2. Fire Weaver lags behind core engi in sustained pressure. It has periods of high burst followed by periods of downtime. If you're smart, you can take advantage of these gaps of weakness to net the kill on a weaver while avoiding counterpressure. Core Engi has no such gaps. You've always got a cooldown available to keep the pressure rolling. The damage profile is much more flat. This comes with the downside of making it harder to surprise opponents with a big burst and the upside of never truly having a point where you run out of steam
    3. Core Engi's condition pressure is more varied than fire weaver. You don't need nearly as many cleanses to deal with a fire weaver's damage. You can manage to live with a 1 or 2 condi cleanse so long as it's timed properly. Core engi spreads out it's pressure over many different conditons, this means that you will need many more cleanses over the course of a fight in order to negate their pressure. Even most bunkers will eventually run out of cooldowns and succumb to the pressure. Core engi also has abundanct access to poison to throttle the sustain of enemy bunkers. Something fire weaver lacks.

    I believe this relates to the other points you've made. You're underplaying core engineer's strengths in relation to other builds. Just because it's weaker than those builds doesn't mean that it has nothing over them. It's simply that the strengths of a fire weaver or burn guardian are more valuable or more pronounced.

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    You can read my proposed changes to condi engi. Would that make it broken?

    I'm not opposed to changes, however I don't think core engi necessarily needs to burst hard with burning to be competetive. Core engi is all about sustained damage over burst, and I think that aspect should be played up a bit more rather than trying to make them a carbon copy of guardian or fire weaver. Let engi play to it's own strengths and let buffs center on that.

    That said I do like the idea of the flamethrower rework, but this would have the effect of also buffing flamethrower scrapper since one weakness of the build is that it lacks stunbreaks (once you're able to break through its stab that is). That might need to be addressed if they went that route.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @ellesee.8297 said:
    It's a little frustrating when I list why condi engi is so bad and people have responded with things like "uh no condi engi is good" without addressing any of my points or posting gameplay videos of double capping and clicking skills. The title of the thread is make condi engi great again and not can condi engi beat bronze players. Condi engi won the first gw2 world tournament even when it wasn't the go to meta build for engi. I want it to have that kind of representation.

    I literally responded to individual points you made and posted (at least) decent gameplay of me doing well against some of the best people in the game. I probably have played more core condi engi in the past 2 years than anyone in this thread, including you.

    Didn't you only start playing again very recently after a long break? The way you talk it sounds like you've mastered the spec and meta. I'd love to see your gameplay and the data/numbers you keep citing, if only to see that you actually have them.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Core Condi: Playable/Viable. But you need to put in more effort to get past it's skill floor than other classes, and then you need to go even further to surpass them. Not necessarily a bad thing though, some people like the challenge. PDV still needs to be updated to actually land against moving targets tho. This alone would be enough to elevate the build to good spot. Similar to how fixing bloodborne path/Sevenshot on Renegade made it a lot stronger.

    This is a pretty accurate take imo. Core engi in general needs love, no one is arguing against that. It's just:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    You don't want condi engi to be good. You want it to be broken, just say it.

    This is what it seems like when you keep posting these awkward and strange threads.

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • ellesee.8297ellesee.8297 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I'm not opposed to changes, however I don't think core engi necessarily needs to burst hard with burning to be competetive. Core engi is all about sustained damage over burst, and I think that aspect should be played up a bit more rather than trying to make them a carbon copy of guardian or fire weaver. Let engi play to it's own strengths and let buffs center on that.

    Nobody said anything about condi engi needing to burn burst. The issue is if you want to go that route, you cannot be well off defensively like any other burst condi class. And if you want to be well off defensively, you deal negligible damage which will never win you any side node fights. There are no strengths to condi engi in the current meta.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    will need to put in more effort and/or be more skilled than your opponent to see equal results.

    This is exactly the issue. Most don't want to. I mean, why try harder when you can do the same stuff with less effort?

    Because in GW2 people don't really care, when was the last time that you had seen anyone show some form of appreciation or respect for playing something that's unusual, underground, underrated. Some people have done that for me, but it pales in comparison of all the insults I got. No, instead what we get is some elitist insults that we should be playing this or that because winning is all that really matters apparently, but really though? Is that really it? People complain about Sticks and Stones all the time, what do you think you end up with when everyone asks to have the same kitten builds everywhere? It's no different. Regardless, some professions will undeniably always take more effort because of their designs, be Engineer or Elementalist, if you buff them the wrong way they will overperform along their E-Specs.

    In the end, people that play stuff that takes more effort and skills are undeniably showing they are just as good or better than those who don't because of the objective reason that one is easier than the other until both parties have similar gauges of investment. The magic of GW2 being it's actually possible pull off many different things against bad odds since evades, mobility, sigils and LoS exists.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.
    twitch.tv/shaoaz

  • I suppose I should leave my input and frustrations here as the single guy that made condi engi truly work in tournaments. I played on many teams with it. I have over 10k+ games as it. I was at the forefront of creating the builds. I went to China to play condi engi as part of the abjured. My resume speaks for itself. All of that e-peening aside, condi engi is not even close to where it should be. Nobody is asking for it to be overpowered, but there's much to be desired for simple parity with other classes.

    Its downfall started in the rush to put out the current specialization system. Changes to the engi trees weren't well considered and condi engi was simply left behind. What really put the nail in the coffin was the changes to conditions. For example, where incendiary powder used to deal upwards of 700 damage, it became a single stack of burning that deals half that. There was no effort to bring the class back up to where it was previously. To make matters worse was the inevitable power-creep that the game still suffers from today. Even if you put condi engi back in its heyday it wouldn't be a match for certain builds that exist as of right now.

    The current issue is simple. How are you able to do enough condition damage yet stay alive against even moderate level players? The answer, right now, is that it's nearly impossible. I legitimately have no clue. If you put a condi engi in a game and you're better off with another class with a player of the same skill level.

  • Captain Kuro.8937Captain Kuro.8937 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ostricheggs.3742 said:
    I suppose I should leave my input and frustrations here as the single guy that made condi engi truly work in tournaments. I played on many teams with it. I have over 10k+ games as it. I was at the forefront of creating the builds. I went to China to play condi engi as part of the abjured. My resume speaks for itself. All of that e-peening aside, condi engi is not even close to where it should be. Nobody is asking for it to be overpowered, but there's much to be desired for simple parity with other classes.

    Its downfall started in the rush to put out the current specialization system. Changes to the engi trees weren't well considered and condi engi was simply left behind. What really put the nail in the coffin was the changes to conditions. For example, where incendiary powder used to deal upwards of 700 damage, it became a single stack of burning that deals half that. There was no effort to bring the class back up to where it was previously. To make matters worse was the inevitable power-creep that the game still suffers from today. Even if you put condi engi back in its heyday it wouldn't be a match for certain builds that exist as of right now.

    The current issue is simple. How are you able to do enough condition damage yet stay alive against even moderate level players? The answer, right now, is that it's nearly impossible. I legitimately have no clue. If you put a condi engi in a game and you're better off with another class with a player of the same skill level.

    You and Corpse form the "Among Us" game , should do a duet , with your sexy voices :P

    Overextending is bad , so on/off till November

  • ellesee.8297ellesee.8297 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    will need to put in more effort and/or be more skilled than your opponent to see equal results.

    This is exactly the issue. Most don't want to. I mean, why try harder when you can do the same stuff with less effort?

    Because in GW2 people don't really care, when was the last time that you had seen anyone show some form of appreciation or respect for playing something that's unusual, underground, underrated. Some people have done that for me, but it pales in comparison of all the insults I got. No, instead what we get is some elitist insults that we should be playing this or that because winning is all that really matters apparently, but really though? Is that really it? People complain about Sticks and Stones all the time, what do you think you end up with when everyone asks to have the same kitten builds everywhere? It's no different. Regardless, some professions will undeniably always take more effort because of their designs, be Engineer or Elementalist, if you buff them the wrong way they will overperform along their E-Specs.

    In the end, people that play stuff that takes more effort and skills are undeniably showing they are just as good or better than those who don't because of the objective reason that one is easier than the other until both parties have similar gauges of investment. The magic of GW2 being it's actually possible pull off many different things against bad odds since evades, mobility, sigils and LoS exists.

    This is the same tired strawman that many people have been posting here. The argument isn't condi engi is bad because they require more effort. The argument is condi engi is bad because they objectively do not have the tools to keep up with the meta. It doesn't even keep up with off meta builds meaning if you put in the omegamaximum effort on the objectively best condi build that exists right now for a certain role, it would, by the numbers, not be as good as many other builds for that role, maybe even most other builds. As ostricheggs said, and what I've been saying this entire thread, the reality of the state of condi engi is this: if you want to deal damage, you don't have defensives. If you want to have defensives, you can't deal much damage. A requirement for damage builds in pvp in any mmo is to have both.

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    You don't want condi engi to be good. You want it to be broken, just say it.

    This is what it seems like when you keep posting these awkward and strange threads.

    I've posted my proposed ideas to bring condi engi up to the rest of the classes. Personally I don't think they would make condi engi broken, and I also don't think a thread that sheds some light on the plight of the condi engi is awkward or strange. It has been irrelevant for 6 years now. What's actually awkward and strange are some of these replies.

    "Oh yeah condi engi could definitely use some buffs, but man I have a condi engi build and I can kill random people with it sometimes in unranked games, and you know it has some glaring weaknesses and also nobody plays it but you know condi engi is fine and people need to experiment more and we also shouldn't buff condi engi because buffing things like flamethrower and bomb kit would make the meta builds like prot or nade holo that don't use these utilities even more op."

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @ellesee.8297 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    will need to put in more effort and/or be more skilled than your opponent to see equal results.

    This is exactly the issue. Most don't want to. I mean, why try harder when you can do the same stuff with less effort?

    Because in GW2 people don't really care, when was the last time that you had seen anyone show some form of appreciation or respect for playing something that's unusual, underground, underrated. Some people have done that for me, but it pales in comparison of all the insults I got. No, instead what we get is some elitist insults that we should be playing this or that because winning is all that really matters apparently, but really though? Is that really it? People complain about Sticks and Stones all the time, what do you think you end up with when everyone asks to have the same kitten builds everywhere? It's no different. Regardless, some professions will undeniably always take more effort because of their designs, be Engineer or Elementalist, if you buff them the wrong way they will overperform along their E-Specs.

    In the end, people that play stuff that takes more effort and skills are undeniably showing they are just as good or better than those who don't because of the objective reason that one is easier than the other until both parties have similar gauges of investment. The magic of GW2 being it's actually possible pull off many different things against bad odds since evades, mobility, sigils and LoS exists.

    This is the same tired strawman that many people have been posting here. The argument isn't condi engi is bad because they require more effort. The argument is condi engi is bad because they objectively do not have the tools to keep up with the meta. It doesn't even keep up with off meta builds meaning if you put in the omegamaximum effort on the objectively best condi build that exists right now for a certain role, it would, by the numbers, not be as good as many other builds for that role, maybe even most other builds. As ostricheggs said, and what I've been saying this entire thread, the reality of the state of condi engi is this: if you want to deal damage, you don't have defensives. If you want to have defensives, you can't deal much damage. A requirement for damage builds in pvp in any mmo is to have both.

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    You don't want condi engi to be good. You want it to be broken, just say it.

    This is what it seems like when you keep posting these awkward and strange threads.

    I've posted my proposed ideas to bring condi engi up to the rest of the classes. Personally I don't think they would make condi engi broken, and I also don't think a thread that sheds some light on the plight of the condi engi is awkward or strange. It has been irrelevant for 6 years now. What's actually awkward and strange are some of these replies.

    "Oh yeah condi engi could definitely use some buffs, but man I have a condi engi build and I can kill random people with it sometimes in unranked games, and you know it has some glaring weaknesses and also nobody plays it but you know condi engi is fine and people need to experiment more and we also shouldn't buff condi engi because buffing things like flamethrower and bomb kit would make the meta builds like prot or nade holo that don't use these utilities even more op."

    Please, do not complain about strawmen while committing the same fallacy yourself. I never mentioned holo. I mentioned Flamethrower scrapper. The build I mentioned literally has flamethrower in the name. It's weakness is that it has no stunbreaks. If it runs a stunbreak then it gives up bulwark gyro or purge gyro making it vulnerable to burst/ranged pressure or conditions respectively. If flamethrower had a stunbreak it could cover all bases and people would start complaining about it.

    And you know what happens when people complain about engi's elite specs...

    Core gets gutted again. Every. Single. Time.

    My point was that if Anet goes down that route, they will need to either address scrapper or Juggernaut to prevent that build from overperforming. Unless I'm mistaken, juggernaut was designed to offset flamethrower's weakness of being locked down while it tries to dish out damage in short range, so it would be fitting to change it to something else. There's a lot Anet could do with it.

    On tthat topic, I've got some ideas floating around in my head as well for what Anet could do to rework Core Engi, but those would likely be best placed in the professions section since these are relevant to PvE as well.

    No one here (expect maybe Shao) is denying that core engi is weak. We're simply trying to point out what it does well and what it doesn't do so well. It has it's strengths and they're worth mentioning, even if they're outweighed by it's weaknesses.

    We'd all (Or at least I would) like to see it get buffed. It's been shafted one too many times in an attempt to bring down its elites. The excuses are always the same.

    • "It was overperforming on core too". Which is precisely why you didn't see a single core engineer played in a serious matches abusing said traits/skills. Claiming it as broken while having a sample size of zero to support that claim.

    • "You just want to abuse broken no skill builds.". Of course. That's why we deliberately handicap ourselves by playing core engi and not either of the elite specs.

    • "It was powercrept. (or some varient of this)". Never mind that core engineer (and core ele), are the two classes who suffer the most from being power creept on. Not the other way around. These are the builds that have been power crept out of the meta to the point where there's virtually no situation where you'd want a core engi/ele over anything else.

    That's like ripping money from the poor because the rich have too much money.

  • @Kuma.1503 said:
    Sniff

    Sadly, it's not possible to buff core and core only, because of poorly designed e-speces, which in most cases are built on top of it instead of being "a different playstyle", exception to it is surprisngly Necromancer, which truly lives to that meaning. Berserker and Chronomancer to a very small degree as well, rest is a complete core+.
    The only thing you can "mess around" and buff is just F5 and nothing beside that, anything else will affect e-speces you like it or not. Argument "but Holosmith doesn't run xyz trait/skill, so it's fine to buff it for core" is pepega, because everything can be used on e-speces beside that F5.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 Weak, but not unplayable. Having to intricately apply conditions to be effective does not compare to just pressing a few keys for results, same goes for power. Can only be effective if you pair explosive entrance efficiently. I still won't agree to traits being underpowered when they fall within the same category as everything else.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.
    twitch.tv/shaoaz

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Sniff

    Sadly, it's not possible to buff core and core only, because of poorly designed e-speces, which in most cases are built on top of it instead of being "a different playstyle", exception to it is surprisngly Necromancer, which truly lives to that meaning. Berserker and Chronomancer to a very small degree as well, rest is a complete core+.
    The only thing you can "mess around" and buff is just F5 and nothing beside that, anything else will affect e-speces you like it or not. Argument "but Holosmith doesn't run xyz trait/skill, so it's fine to buff it for core" is pepega, because everything can be used on e-speces beside that F5.

    For every other class, core is able to compete with elites for usage.

    Ranger

    Marksmanship is a viable choice over soulbeast for GS/LB builds.
    Druid is arguably weaker than core for most builds. It's mostly chosen for immob synergy or bunker play.

    Guardian

    Core burn has been viable for a long time, even if only as a G3 and below carry build.
    Core power is played in conjunction with elites both PvE and PvP. It even has a build in snowcrows
    Core shout is literally the best support in the current meta.

    Thief

    Core and DrD have been seen interchangeably over the years. Currently we have Core condi thief and d/p daredevil as the most popular builds.

    Warrior

    Still the only class I haven't played so I can't speak about warrior. I have seen plenty of core warriors however.

    Revenant
    This class is somewhat of an Outlier considering it was build from the ground up with elites in mind. In spite of that it's core builds still have a place.

    There's that secret core bunker build that people are starting to learn about.
    Core Jallis/Mallyx is also playable. (However recent nerfs may have made these builds less viable)

    Necro

    It's necro.

    Mesmer:

    It's only a meme but Core one shot mesmer is still capable of 100 / 0's from stealth.
    Tbh this class needs work too. Pls buff.

    The core+ issue with Engi is a problem of Anet's own making. Every time a core spec is nerfed to bring down an elite, the gap between core and the elite is exacerbated. Opportunity costs are some of the most natural ways to do trade-offs, but with engi's traitlines being butchered over time, you start to lose less and less for giving up one of these traitlines.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Engi traitlines need to be redone from scratch. If this ends up breaking Holo or Scrapper in the meantime... Good, scrapper will be useful for once, but also just tune the elites appropriately.

    The problem is that this requires more work than Anet is willing to invest.

  • ellesee.8297ellesee.8297 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    Sorry I made a post replying to people but I think it's just a waste of time and we'll get lost in pointless arguments. I'll just restate the plight of the condi engi that I've been saying the entire thread and that even ostricheggs reiterated.

    In order to be a successful damage build, you need damage and survivability. This is an indisputable fact. You can take a look at any meta build and see that these requirements are true. Now the problem with condi engi is just taking flamethrower and a mainhand pistol is not enough damage. Therefore a build focused on bursting with condis will be required to take another utility that deals condi damage or give up the shield for offhand pistol. All of these options completely neuter the condi engi's defensives. Taking a second condi dealing utility like bomb kit or flame turret means you only have one utility slot left for a stunbreak/defensive/condi cleanse. Furthermore, none of these utilities are particularly strong. Bomb kit has a 1.5 sec period before anything happens and requires you to be melee on an already fragile build and flame turret just isn't that strong in general even though it can also have some defensive capabilities. Taking the offhand pistol over shield removes one of the best defensive options the engineer has. Already we can see that a condi engi focused on burst damage just can't exist because it would just die instantly.

    If we want to look at the "attrition" side of things, the side node condi engi doesn't fare that much better. Again we see the problem that a condi engi that only takes flamethrower and mainhand pistol doesn't deal enough damage. People here have claimed that the engi doesn't need to deal much condition damage and it can wither away opponents given enough time. This scenario is empirically not true. First, all successful side noders can burst you down. They have to because stalemating forever isn't how you win. You get +1'd and die, or someone on your team+1's the opponent but you can't finish him because you don't deal damage. Side noders like spellbreaker will smack you with a 5-8k arc divider every few seconds, a fire weaver can burn burst you like every 15 seconds, a prot holo can sword burst you or holo burst you every dozen seconds. Burst damage is simply a requirement. What is the condi engineer's burst damage if you just run flamethrower + 2 defensives? An extra 3 burn stacks every 40 seconds. It just isn't good enough.

    Another issue with the condi engi is that the elite specs don't cater to conditions at all, forcing any engi that desires to run conditions to be core. Like sure solar focusing lens applies more burns, but why would you take that over an amazing condition removal tool like prismatic converter? We could change crystal configuration: storm to be similar to a necromancer's dhuumfire where holo 1 would apply burning, but would you really take that over on demand immob clear and super speed? Thermal release valve is a pathetic trait to apply burning as well. And scrapper didn't even make an attempt at catering to a condi playstyle.

    The solutions to these problems are simple. You can make the flamethrower deal more damage so taking flamethrower + 2 defensives with pistol/shield is enough offensive pressure to match other side noders. You could give the flamethrower a stunbreak so that you could take another offensive utility and not have to worry about a stunbreak for your final utility. You could turn corona configuration: storm into a dhuumfire clone and swap it with thermal release valve in grandmaster. I'm sure there are other ways to go about it, but those are some ideas.

    And just to make it perfectly clear, the issue with condi engi is not that it requires more effort to be successful. That is wholly irrelevant. The issue with condi engi is that it is objectively weak in any role it decides to do even if you put in the maximum effort.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @ellesee.8297 said:
    snip cuz long

    This is a legitimate problem with core engineer. It's a delicate balancing act in order to fit together everything you need into one build. If you still wish to play it, I can offer some suggestions to help alleviate this problem.

    The first issue you mentioned is that flamethrower + pistol shield isn't enough pressure. You'd actually be correct. You'll be hard pressed to kill someone with pistol/shield, flamethrower + two defensives. The solution is to run elixir gun.

    Elixir gun does so much for the build. It has a low cooldown stunbreak that is reduced further with HGH, it has a pulsing heal field with ~90% uptime on node. It has acid bomb, unblockable damage that can force the enemy off of node. This hits hard even on a condi build. Fumigate and Acid bomb are going to be your two main sources of pressure with egun. Acid bomb hits hard on the main hit. If you can get any of the pulses to connect that's just icing on the cake. Fumigate does about 4k damage worth of poison. You can channel this while waiting for your cooldowns to come back up.

    Egun also gives you a single cleanse with Super elixir. You can blast this with shield 4, acid bomb, and Flamethrower 2 for additional cleanses.

    With Egun, Flamethrower and Pistol you can rotate through the following cooldowns.

    Poison dart volley -> static shot -> Flame Blast -> Acid bomb -> Auto once for more cover condis -> Fumigate -> Pistol skills should be off cooldown again -> repeat loop.
    This lets you constantly bombard the enemy with non-stop pressure.

    With Med Kit, Flamethrower, and Egun you've got multiple bases covered.

    Med Kit: Sustain, low cooldown condi cleanse
    Flamethrower: Pressure, no cast time blind that you can use to protect yourself while CC'd or stomping
    Egun, Minor cleansing, Additional sustain, low cooldown stunbreak

    The final slot is up to preference.

    Elixir S gives you a second stunbreak, a safestomp for finishing kills, and stealth/invuln for surviving +1s.
    Toolkit forgoes the extra stunbreak in favor of another block and... of course, the mighty prybar.
    Slick shoes is another low cooldown stunbreak with a knockdown. You can combo this into acid bomb or napalm and it will chunk their hp.

    To cap things off, you can opt for either mortar kit or supply crate. Mortars give you even more sustain with pulsing blinds and heals, as well as low cooldown poison on node for reducing enemy bunker's healing. Supply crate is a long stun with a nifty toolbelt for even more cleanse/sustain.

    With this set up you should have everything you need. Pressure, sustain, cleanse, multiple stunbreaks, plenty of CC and a tiny bit of mobility with mecha legs and acid bomb.
    It'll still be a challenge to compete with meta builds, but it's do-able.

    This is the set-up I run

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAo6lNw6YesLWKWqPdJPA-z5YXGZmA9WAuOA

  • ellesee.8297ellesee.8297 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    Please stop linking whatever setup you use unless you've used it to some degree of success in tourneys or against high level players. I don't care how condi engi fares against bad players or even mediocre players. A build is good when a competant player can use it successfully against other competent players.

    Condi engi wasn't the meta in 2014 as it was overtaken by cele, but I could link you to ostricheggs winning the world tournament with it. I could also show you footage of chaith, oeggs, or myself playing against very good players and having success with it. That's because it checked off everything that made a build good at the time. It had good defenses. It had good damage, and it could stand toe to toe versus other meta builds like hambow. Condi engi doesn't make the cut now because it can do none of those things. So please, if you think condi engi needs help then join me in shedding some light on why condi engi can't keep up instead of qualifying every single one of your "condi engi needs buffs" statements with "but condi engi is also ok if you just put in the effort and if you're like way better than the other player." It's not. It's bad.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @ellesee.8297 said:
    Please stop linking whatever setup you use unless you've used it to some degree of success in tourneys or against high level players. I don't care how condi engi fares against bad players or even mediocre players. A build is good when a competant player can use it successfully against other competent players.

    Condi engi wasn't the meta in 2014 as it was overtaken by cele, but I could link you to ostricheggs winning the world tournament with it. I could also show you footage of chaith, oeggs, or myself playing against very good players and having success with it. That's because it checked off everything that made a build good at the time. It had good defenses. It had good damage, and it could stand toe to toe versus other meta builds like hambow. Condi engi doesn't make the cut now because it can do none of those things. So please, if you think condi engi needs help then join me in shedding some light on why condi engi can't keep up instead of qualifying every single one of your "condi engi needs buffs" statements with "but condi engi is also ok if you just put in the effort and if you're like way better than the other player." It's not. It's bad.

    You're more likely to get people to listen to you if you approach them with facts and not hyperbole. It's important to be willing to look past your own bias and frustration and look at what positives your class has. You'll want to make note of these as well as where your class falls short because this will help guide the conversation towards the right places. What needs to be touched up on and what can be left alone?

    The purpose of these statements is objectivity. Is core engi objectively weak? Yes. Is it completely unplayable? No.

    You mentioned that core engi cant' fit in everything a build needs to be workable. I gave an example of a build that hits every checkmark for what a build will need to be playable. It has pressure, sustain, stunbreaks, cleanse, crowd control, a block, a reflect, and a decent amount of boons. It's important to make note of these things early on, because if not, they will be brought up later. If you want an example of an engineer player making use of a very similar build vs good/competent players, you should check out Woodstock's video. It's very well made.

    While core condi might be playable, core power engi is virtually useless. Even when built full glass, you can out dps it with most bruisers. It falls over if anyone so much as looks at it, and it's completely screwed over by projectile blocks and reflects.

    If you want my opinon on what core engineer needs, it needs a few things.

    1. Poison dart volley has a faster and more accurate rate of fire. Combo finisher attatched (100% if you really want to go ham with buffing it. 20% if you wish to play it safe)
    2. Short Fuse gives bomb kits shorter fuses again
    3. Turrets reworked from complete uselessnessness.
    4. Rifle 4 self knockback removed. Blunderbuss explosion tag added
    5. The flamethower rework you mentioned earlier was nice. However Juggernaut or Mass Momentum should be reworked so it doesn't break scrapper.
    6. 300 sec cooldown traits reworked (every class needs this)

    With that Core engi should be in a good spot. Both power and condi builds will benefit. If it breaks either of the elites, just touch on them as needed.
    A 100% finisher on poison dart volley in conjunction with a faster and more accurate fire rate would be a huge buff on it's own. Imagine shooting that through a fire field and inflicting tons of burning. Core engi would have some real burst. (If it breaks condi Holo, they can lower the burning on photon blitz)

    Rifle being fixed into a usable weapon will make power engi feel less garbage to play.

    ( Looking forward, I'd also like to see some a rework to engi's traitlines, but that's going to take a lot of work and discussion with engi mains more knowledable about the class than me in both PvE and PvP. )

  • ellesee.8297ellesee.8297 Member ✭✭✭

    The build doesn't have any pressure, because having FT as the only damage utility is 0 pressure like I've been saying the entire time. It also dies instantly to any +1's because S is the only way you stay alive after shield. S also loses you the node. Literally the entire point of a side noder is to be a bruiser that can survive for a bit when plussed. This is why the build is bad. Please. I don't want to argue about whether or not some random build can meme a kill in gold rating. I want to talk about why condi engi is absent from high level play, and it's because, like you said, it's objectively weak.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    I can see where we've gotten our wires crossed. Seems you and I have different definitions of what playable builds look like. Rather than continue to argue on that point, lets hone in on the important bit: how we can improve the class.

    I'll start with one of their weakest utilities.

    Bomb kit needs a functionality update. (Much like the majority of engi's kit). Bomb kit has all the weaknesses of guardian symbols with the additional downsides of

    • Having no range or ports to help you land them
    • Having long delays (3 seconds on big ol bomb! for a whopping 7 damage)
    • Extremely telegraphed.

    On that last point, 99% of engi's damage comes from range. Pistol, flamethrower 2-4. Egun 3. Only acid bomb and bomb kit require you to be up close. This make it easy for your opponent to know what you're about to do. Add in long delays on top and bomb kit skills will never land against someone who has their movement keys bound. It's not worth the slot.

    [Functionality Changes]

    Bombs can be placed down at 180 range. They will linger for 10 seconds. Press again to detonate skill early

    Short Fuse: Bomb skills deal increased damage and have reduced cooldowns. BUT they will always detonate immediately. (Note you still have to perform the animation of putting the bomb down. The skills are not instant cast)

    Skill 1: Bomb: Still functions as it does now, but with 180 extra range.
    Skill 2: Firebomb - Range increased to 180. (I checked to see if it did a tick of burning on the initial pulse and thankfully it does)
    Skill 3: Concussion Bomb Chemical Bomb - Explode into a pool of gunk that pulses confusion and poison. Ethereal Field
    Skill 4: Smoke Bomb: Range increased to 180
    Skill 5: Glue Bomb Magnet Bomb: Slightly reworked verson of Streamlined kits skill.

    Magnet bomb will show up as a translucent field that rapidly grows and then collapses in on itself, pulling in all enemies. For enemies, there will also be a growing red circle.

    Toolbelt: Wreckless Bomber: [1 second cast time] Throw down your bomb kit and launch enemies away. You can also throw this at your feet to launch yourself away. Bomb skills will all incur a 5 second cooldown after use. Currently recharging skills will go on 5 second increased cd.

    Note: has the same effect as being hit by banish. Animation can be the Ranger bonfire animation, but slowed down and performed with both hands.