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How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP]

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  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    Turretz do need a sustain buff though sure they shouldnt tank focused damage but they shouldnt explode before they visibly spawn to indirect attacks either

    I have proposed that turrets just be balanced around getting an overcharge off and going on a global 20s CD. No need to keep them alive past the first few seconds except to set up a blast finisher/knockback or reach the 10s lifespan if you run Experimental Turrets to get the last tick of boons.

    With a balance like this, (without autoattack) the health of Turrets can be increased to avoid accidental instant death.

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  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    Turretz do need a sustain buff though sure they shouldnt tank focused damage but they shouldnt explode before they visibly spawn to indirect attacks either

    Turrets should act like a weaker version of scourge shades imo ( great area control and utility, but no condi dps please ) , right now the only good turrets are the elite and healing turret>

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    I have proposed that turrets just be balanced around getting an overcharge off and going on a global 20s CD. No need to keep them alive past the first few seconds except to set up a blast finisher/knockback or reach the 10s lifespan if you run Experimental Turrets to get the last tick of boons.

    With a balance like this, (without autoattack) the health of Turrets can be increased to avoid accidental instant death.

    those turret changes are uncreative dude, you can think of how to make everything on core engi broken as hell but you can't figure out how to "fix" turrets?

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    i hope we get something like wildstar robots maybe , i dont see turrets ever being proper balanced unless made with manually trigger skills also the nerf to flame turret oc was stupid it should pulse blinds every second instead of 2 or have wider radius

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    I think the overcharging system and the auto-attack system is too complicated to work properly with. I'd like to see turrets changes like that :

    • turrets cooldown = 5 + 20x % health of the turret
    • each turret attack every 5s

    Healing Turret would proc healing mist every 5s, yes, so maybe it's time to nerf it in order to stop its supremacy nadof allow space for the other heals.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    those turret changes are uncreative dude, you can think of how to make everything on core engi broken as hell but you can't figure out how to "fix" turrets?

    Everything I say is wrong cause you're just butt hurt, yet you have no objectively better ideas. "Like sand shades," ok 4Head

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  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    I think the overcharging system and the auto-attack system is too complicated to work properly with. I'd like to see turrets changes like that :

    • turrets cooldown = 5 + 20x % health of the turret
    • each turret attack every 5s

    Healing Turret would proc healing mist every 5s, yes, so maybe it's time to nerf it in order to stop its supremacy nadof allow space for the other heals.

    Not sure I understand what you're saying. Turret cooldown = 5 + (20*%HP) ? Can you elaborate more on how that'd work

    "Each turret attack every 5s, so Healing turret would proc healing mist every 5s" Dude, nobody lets Healing Turret auto attack, it's just an overcharge and pick it up/detonate it. In fact, that's a nerf to Rifle with a 2s firing rate, Thumper with a 3s firing rate, and a big buff to Net Turret with a 10s firing rate. I don't get what the point is.

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  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    i hope we get something like wildstar robots maybe , i dont see turrets ever being proper balanced unless made with manually trigger skills also the nerf to flame turret oc was stupid it should pulse blinds every second instead of 2 or have wider radius

    They will never work as a pet class because of improper scaling. The easiest way they'll be usable without adding stat scaling to auto attacks and so forth, that's just to make them shorter cooldown overcharge, then detonate as fodder. They can be balanced and require skill/timing if they're just used used at the right moment, and detonated quickly at the right moment, for example.

    Edit: I know for certain that as I proposed, Thumper Turret "Thump" overcharge on a 20s CD, Rocket Turret's Explosives Rocket on a 20s CD, and with Experimental Turrets being able to give base 50% uptime of Prot to allies, and Rocket Turret's 50% uptime of retal respectively - if it lives for the full 10s to get the second "Experimental Turrets" tick, that's pretty nice. With Advanced Turrets, they'd all have an instant reflect bubble and be able to knock back on death, too. Core Engineer could use them and be in a "Great" tier build in PvP.

    They've been un-usable kitten for so long, I think they just need the simplest fix possible, even though adding stat scaling would be better, it's been called impossible by ArenaNet

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  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    Everything I say is wrong cause you're just butt hurt, yet you have no objectively better ideas. "Like sand shades," ok 4Head

    You yourself said your not sure how to balance turrets (which i agree are really bad and need a buff) but those changes arent going to make em good, i can come up with plenty of good ideas that are much better than "thumper turret thump overcharge on 20cd" . Im not butt hurt at all, im feeling quite ok actually :)

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    Everything I say is wrong cause you're just butt hurt, yet you have no objectively better ideas. "Like sand shades," ok 4Head

    You yourself said your not sure how to balance turrets (which i agree are really bad and need a buff) but those changes arent going to make em good, i can come up with plenty of good ideas that are much better than "thumper turret thump overcharge on 20cd" . Im not butt hurt at all, im feeling quite ok actually :)

    Eh, I put some thought into it. I have suggestions to update all turrets, Experimental Turrets trait, and Advanced Turrets. You want them to be a weaker version of sand shades, how would that work? :trollface:

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    Eh, I put some thought into it. I have suggestions to update all turrets, Experimental Turrets trait, and Advanced Turrets. You want them to be a weaker version of sand shades, how would that work? :trollface:

    I didnt actually mean turrets should be like sand shades, i ment that that since they dont move, they should be great at area control (like shades, you see that red circle you get tf outta there) and have some effects to them, ( you only suggested cc and knockback). How to fix, im not sure yet, but when i get an idea it'll be much better than yours.

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    Personally I'm tired of red circles that make the entire point impossible to stand on, it already exists and is called Scourge.

    Turrets should be about clutch overcharge timing, clutch detonation knockbacks. It should not be about A.I autoattacks or inflicting cancer in an AoE.

    Ok, well don't think too hard on your idea, I bet it'll be great and NOT give everyone.... Nvm :trollface:

    So you want turrets to be cc basically, got it. Your changes are even worse than mine since turrets would be like the old overpowered engi build that could hold and decap a point against anything. Man i gotta see you ingame some time, you look like a fun guy to be around.... :trollface:

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    Personally I'm tired of red circles that make the entire point impossible to stand on, it already exists and is called Scourge.

    Turrets should be about clutch overcharge timing, clutch detonation knockbacks. It should not be about A.I autoattacks or inflicting cancer in an AoE.

    Ok, well don't think too hard on your idea, I bet it'll be great and NOT give everyone.... Nvm :trollface:

    So you want turrets to be cc basically, got it. Your changes are even worse than mine since turrets would be like the old overpowered engi build that could hold and decap a point against anything. Man i gotta see you ingame some time, you look like a fun guy to be around.... :trollface:

    It's not a new idea for turrets to knock back on death and I didn't suggest to change overcharge skills. Better trait interaction, appropriate cooldowns, and no auto attacking - all player controlled pressure.

    Turrets = better as skill based instead of red circle based. You're the one suggesting turrets should insta decap points with red circles, not me.

    Flame turret and rifle turret are not CC

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  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    It's not a new idea for turrets to knock back on death and I didn't suggest to change overcharge skills. Better trait interaction, appropriate cooldowns, and no auto attacking - all player controlled pressure.

    Turrets = better as skill based instead of red circle based. You're the one suggesting turrets should insta decap points with red circles, not me.

    Flame turret and rifle turret are not CC

    This is literally what you just said about turrets

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    .

    Turrets should be about clutch overcharge timing, clutch detonation knockbacks.

    You cant just change what you said like that, also i again never said turrets should be as op as sand shades (specifically desert shroud and neracious flavor that need to be toned down), i just said to add utility to the turrets instead of more knockback spam ( seriously this game has more than enough cc as is). If you thought by me saying to add red circles to turrets would make them the same as skills that can apply nearly every condi in the game on you and almost insta down you than your surely mistaken, buddy.

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    It's not a new idea for turrets to knock back on death and I didn't suggest to change overcharge skills. Better trait interaction, appropriate cooldowns, and no auto attacking - all player controlled pressure.

    Turrets = better as skill based instead of red circle based. You're the one suggesting turrets should insta decap points with red circles, not me.

    Flame turret and rifle turret are not CC

    This is literally what you just said about turrets

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    Turrets should be about clutch overcharge timing, clutch detonation knockbacks.

    You cant just change what you said like that, also i again never said turrets should be as op as sand shades (specifically desert shroud and neracious flavor that need to be toned down), i just said to add utility to the turrets instead of more knockback spam ( seriously this game has more than enough cc as is). If you thought by me saying to add red circles to turrets would make them the same as skills that can apply nearly every condi in the game on you and almost insta down you than your surely mistaken, buddy.

  • Ivantreil.3092Ivantreil.3092 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    Something came to my mind, what do you think about the idea of improving the toolkit AA even further, when the turret is hitted, their damage is signficantly enhanced and the reload for the next turret attack reduced to a 50% less from his normal fire ratio.

    The third aa hit, along with this, fully condi cleanses the turret.

    This would still keep turrets awful went left doing stuff alone, but if the engi wants to do active play with the turret, it gets rewarded for it.

    Perhaps also add critical chance allowance if it isnt enough.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:
    Something came to my mind, what do you think about the idea of improving the toolkit AA even further, when the turret is hitted, their damage is signficantly enhanced and the reload for the next turret attack reduced to a 50% less from his normal fire ratio.

    The third aa hit, along with this, fully condi cleanses the turret.

    This would still keep turrets awful went left doing stuff alone, but if the engi wants to do active play with the turret, it gets rewarded for it.

    Perhaps also add critical chance allowance if it isnt enough.

    It would have to like, SUPER power up the turret, at least equal or greater to what the Engineer can do by himself. Like Med Blaster, Tool Kit Autos will take your entire focus away from combat. Turrets only do static damage, like, 500-1400 a hit, so, how do you scale static damage in a fair way by whacking the turret? Is it engaging gameplay to run in circles whacking turrets while A.I kills players for you? I think the idea is not worth pursuing, although an interesting mechanic on paper. Seems not fun to play or play against.

    Also, I think Turrets should move away from auto-attacks and trying to keep turrets alive to do the pressure for them - IF they're to be ever buffed and made viable.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Razor.6392Razor.6392 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Isn't utility goggles meta as a passive trait? and you want to buff that?

    LuL

    Never said I'm the best, but I believe I'm better than you.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    @Razor.6392 said:
    Isn't utility goggles meta as a passive trait? and you want to buff that?

    LuL

    Is it? Reduced from 10s to 6s LuL. And explosives is meta

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  • I just want gyros that can go up stairs!

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    @Jaruselka.5943 said:
    I just want gyros that can go up stairs!

    I just want Final Salvo's that can go up stairs. I'd play a slightly more mobile Scrapper so much more. Gotta run away from Scourges better to survive.

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  • I still feel theres something else that could be done, what about buff the condi damage of toolkit #2?

    Improvements to Elixir gun #2, 3?

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:
    I still feel theres something else that could be done, what about buff the condi damage of toolkit #2?

    Improvements to Elixir gun #2, 3?

    Look again, my first 4 changes to kits are:

    Kits
    1.) Toolkit #3: Damage increased by 15%.

    2.) Toolkit #2. 1 Torment added to ticks, same duration as cripple.

    3.) Elixir Gun #2: Damage increased by 15%. Velocity increased by 50%.

    4.) Elixir Gun #3: Poison duration increased from 2 to 4 seconds.

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  • Wow... well, you really almost covered everything then, the only thing not covered is the turret's toolbelts, but yeah, those are in a lost cause as you said.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:
    Wow... well, you really almost covered everything then, the only thing not covered is the turret's toolbelts, but yeah, those are in a lost cause as you said.

    The turret toolbelt abilities are mostly great. After my proposed changes I legitimately would use Thumper and Net/Rocket turret as a inventions build variant on lots of builds, maybe even Holo - it could be another way to play it, probably slightly less viable, but could have niche uses. That's really what the aim is, not to create better builds than the best existing builds currently.

    Edit: I probably would reduce Net Turret and Thumper Turret's toolbelt abilities from 38s to 25s, to match all the others. That's about it.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Ivantreil.3092Ivantreil.3092 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:
    Wow... well, you really almost covered everything then, the only thing not covered is the turret's toolbelts, but yeah, those are in a lost cause as you said.

    The turret toolbelt abilities are mostly great. After my proposed changes I legitimately would use Thumper and Net/Rocket turret as a inventions build variant on lots of builds, maybe even Holo - it could be another way to play it, probably slightly less viable, but could have niche uses. That's really what the aim is, not to create better builds than the best existing builds currently.

    Edit: I probably would reduce Net Turret and Thumper Turret's toolbelt abilities from 38s to 25s, to match all the others. That's about it.

    Perhaps add a daze to the net toolbelt? 25 sec cooldown is still underwhelming for a 3 sec immobilize skill, considering how easy is to remove this nowadays.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:
    Wow... well, you really almost covered everything then, the only thing not covered is the turret's toolbelts, but yeah, those are in a lost cause as you said.

    The turret toolbelt abilities are mostly great. After my proposed changes I legitimately would use Thumper and Net/Rocket turret as a inventions build variant on lots of builds, maybe even Holo - it could be another way to play it, probably slightly less viable, but could have niche uses. That's really what the aim is, not to create better builds than the best existing builds currently.

    Edit: I probably would reduce Net Turret and Thumper Turret's toolbelt abilities from 38s to 25s, to match all the others. That's about it.

    Perhaps add a daze to the net toolbelt? 25 sec cooldown is still underwhelming for a 3 sec immobilize skill, considering how easy is to remove this nowadays.

    This is what I'm not sure about. As I've proposed, you can basically use Electrified Net and Net Attack together every 21-25s. If you use Deadshot amulet for example, that's two 4s immobilize, which you can add a Net Shot or Glue Shot for good measure. I'm worried about overbuffing Turrets at this point, with the base changes and trait buffs I suggested. Lol.

    The Scrapper's expert examination buff i proposed (all disables proc it) combined with base turret buffs and trait buffs (turrets knockback on death) seems like a lot of weakness generation, so I'd be cautious adding more tiny CC's.

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  • @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Jaruselka.5943 said:
    I just want gyros that can go up stairs!

    I just want Final Salvo's that can go up stairs. I'd play a slightly more mobile Scrapper so much more. Gotta run away from Scourges better to survive.

    Actually just generally less kitten gyros would be appreciated. Also it would be nice if rocket boots evaded in the direction in which the camera is pointing rather than the direction of the character since the character and camera regularly get out of alignment..

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jaruselka.5943 said:

    Actually just generally less kitten gyros would be appreciated. Also it would be nice if rocket boots evaded in the direction in which the camera is pointing rather than the direction of the character since the character and camera regularly get out of alignment..

    Yeah I've suggested lots of times for Rocket Boots to shoot in the mouse direction (Fiery Greatsword & Whirlwind Attack) but evading without equal nerfs is a no because they are currently viable.

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  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    I think the overcharging system and the auto-attack system is too complicated to work properly with. I'd like to see turrets changes like that :

    • turrets cooldown = 5 + 20x % health of the turret
    • each turret attack every 5s

    Healing Turret would proc healing mist every 5s, yes, so maybe it's time to nerf it in order to stop its supremacy nadof allow space for the other heals.

    Not sure I understand what you're saying. Turret cooldown = 5 + (20*%HP) ? Can you elaborate more on how that'd work

    "Each turret attack every 5s, so Healing turret would proc healing mist every 5s" Dude, nobody lets Healing Turret auto attack, it's just an overcharge and pick it up/detonate it. In fact, that's a nerf to Rifle with a 2s firing rate, Thumper with a 3s firing rate, and a big buff to Net Turret with a 10s firing rate. I don't get what the point is.

    I didn't explain enough, sorry, here's my idea : the base cooldown of every turret is 25s. Picking up a turret reduces the cooldown by 2s for each 10% life remaining to the turret. Picking up a full life turret puts it on a 5s cooldown, while having one your turret destroyed makes it full CD, 25 seconds. If the turret is midlife when you pick it up, the cooldown will be 5+10 = 15s. This would allow to travel with your turrets instead of putting all of them in the same spot, forcing you to stay in the same place.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    I think the overcharging system and the auto-attack system is too complicated to work properly with. I'd like to see turrets changes like that :

    • turrets cooldown = 5 + 20x % health of the turret
    • each turret attack every 5s

    Healing Turret would proc healing mist every 5s, yes, so maybe it's time to nerf it in order to stop its supremacy nadof allow space for the other heals.

    Not sure I understand what you're saying. Turret cooldown = 5 + (20*%HP) ? Can you elaborate more on how that'd work

    "Each turret attack every 5s, so Healing turret would proc healing mist every 5s" Dude, nobody lets Healing Turret auto attack, it's just an overcharge and pick it up/detonate it. In fact, that's a nerf to Rifle with a 2s firing rate, Thumper with a 3s firing rate, and a big buff to Net Turret with a 10s firing rate. I don't get what the point is.

    I didn't explain enough, sorry, here's my idea : the base cooldown of every turret is 25s. Picking up a turret reduces the cooldown by 2s for each 10% life remaining to the turret. Picking up a full life turret puts it on a 5s cooldown, while having one your turret destroyed makes it full CD, 25 seconds. If the turret is midlife when you pick it up, the cooldown will be 5+10 = 15s. This would allow to travel with your turrets instead of putting all of them in the same spot, forcing you to stay in the same place.

    Oh sweet, so I get to drop, overcharge, and pick up Healing Turret or Thumper Turret every 5s if nobody instantly damages it? Nice. Lol, maybe that's not so great. I mean, it'd make the Engi population explode but the game would be very ill.

    Edit: Picking up a Turret has to put it on a 15s cooldown at least! Also, you're not forced to stay in one spot under my proposal, shorter cooldown, non-auto attacking Turrets that start cooldown when they are placed - they're pretty available to be placed again when you need to move.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:
    Wow... well, you really almost covered everything then, the only thing not covered is the turret's toolbelts, but yeah, those are in a lost cause as you said.

    The turret toolbelt abilities are mostly great. After my proposed changes I legitimately would use Thumper and Net/Rocket turret as a inventions build variant on lots of builds, maybe even Holo - it could be another way to play it, probably slightly less viable, but could have niche uses. That's really what the aim is, not to create better builds than the best existing builds currently.

    Edit: I probably would reduce Net Turret and Thumper Turret's toolbelt abilities from 38s to 25s, to match all the others. That's about it.

    Perhaps add a daze to the net toolbelt? 25 sec cooldown is still underwhelming for a 3 sec immobilize skill, considering how easy is to remove this nowadays.

    This is what I'm not sure about. As I've proposed, you can basically use Electrified Net and Net Attack together every 21-25s. If you use Deadshot amulet for example, that's two 4s immobilize, which you can add a Net Shot or Glue Shot for good measure. I'm worried about overbuffing Turrets at this point, with the base changes and trait buffs I suggested. Lol.

    The Scrapper's expert examination buff i proposed (all disables proc it) combined with base turret buffs and trait buffs (turrets knockback on death) seems like OP Scourge levels of weakness application.

    Hmmm, i see your point, in that case, what about give it the ammo mechanic? sounds fair to me

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2017

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    I think the overcharging system and the auto-attack system is too complicated to work properly with. I'd like to see turrets changes like that :

    • turrets cooldown = 5 + 20x % health of the turret
    • each turret attack every 5s

    Healing Turret would proc healing mist every 5s, yes, so maybe it's time to nerf it in order to stop its supremacy nadof allow space for the other heals.

    Not sure I understand what you're saying. Turret cooldown = 5 + (20*%HP) ? Can you elaborate more on how that'd work

    "Each turret attack every 5s, so Healing turret would proc healing mist every 5s" Dude, nobody lets Healing Turret auto attack, it's just an overcharge and pick it up/detonate it. In fact, that's a nerf to Rifle with a 2s firing rate, Thumper with a 3s firing rate, and a big buff to Net Turret with a 10s firing rate. I don't get what the point is.

    I didn't explain enough, sorry, here's my idea : the base cooldown of every turret is 25s. Picking up a turret reduces the cooldown by 2s for each 10% life remaining to the turret. Picking up a full life turret puts it on a 5s cooldown, while having one your turret destroyed makes it full CD, 25 seconds. If the turret is midlife when you pick it up, the cooldown will be 5+10 = 15s. This would allow to travel with your turrets instead of putting all of them in the same spot, forcing you to stay in the same place.

    Oh sweet, so I get to drop, overcharge, and pick up Healing Turret or Thumper Turret every 5s if nobody instantly damages it? Nice. Lol, maybe that's not so great. I mean, it'd make the Engi population explode but the game would be very ill.

    Edit: Picking up a Turret has to put it on a 15s cooldown at least! Also, you're not forced to stay in one spot under my proposal, shorter cooldown, non-auto attacking Turrets that start cooldown when they are placed - they're pretty available to be placed again when you need to move.

    That's why I said the baseline rate of fire should then become 5s, and make the adjustment so that doesn't become OP, haha x) But 15s of CD seems fair to me anyway, that was just about giving more CD reduction the more the turret has remaining health.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:

    That's why I said the baseline rate of fire should then become 5s, and make the adjustment so that doesn't become OP, haha x) But 15s of CD seems fair to me anyway, that was just about giving more CD reduction the more the turret has remaining health.

    Don't forget that Healing Turret is meta AF, and any global buffs to Turrets should not affect Healing Turret which is a 15-20s cooldown.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    Then remove the self healing on cast and let it pulse cleansing bursts every 5s ? I don't know and in the end, I don't really care. I do think there's something to do about that healing turret supremacy, but currently there's so much other stuff bothering me when it comes to the engineer x) I'm ready for a deep rework of the profession. It was cool before all those new elite specialisation. The design of the engineer was the greatest before HoT IMO, now I'm really sad about how we can't properly adapt to the concept of elite spec.

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    You quoted the wrong guy with the right message btw xD

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2017

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    Then remove the self healing on cast and let it pulse cleansing bursts every 5s ? I don't know and in the end, I don't really care. I do think there's something to do about that healing turret supremacy, but currently there's so much other stuff bothering me when it comes to the engineer x) I'm ready for a deep rework of the profession. It was cool before all those new elite specialisation. The design of the engineer was the greatest before HoT IMO, now I'm really sad about how we can't properly adapt to the concept of elite spec.

    Pistols and kits are just relics of a much lower power level. They were considered weak by 2012 standards, relying on cycling through many skill bars and much better traits than today. Core Engi has been nerfed since launch I'd argue strongly.

    Turret Knockbacks deleted from core specs.
    Backpack regenerator, nerfed into uselessness from core specs.
    Slick Shoes, nerfed into uselessness because muh Gorseval raidboss/Scrapper.
    Healing Turret cast time Increased due to Scrapper.
    Automated Medical response nerfed to 120s cd due to Scrapper.
    Incendiary Powder moved out of Explosives from core specs.

    The HgH/Alchemy buff (combining all Elixir traits) from Core spec patch was not enough to offset huge nerfs to keystone defensive mechanics and close range counter-CCs.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2017

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    Then remove the self healing on cast and let it pulse cleansing bursts every 5s ? I don't know and in the end, I don't really care. I do think there's something to do about that healing turret supremacy, but currently there's so much other stuff bothering me when it comes to the engineer x) I'm ready for a deep rework of the profession. It was cool before all those new elite specialisation. The design of the engineer was the greatest before HoT IMO, now I'm really sad about how we can't properly adapt to the concept of elite spec.

    Could you explain what else is bothering you about engineer? Anet reworking engi is very unlikely (they still havent reworked revenant lol), although i think your turret changes are a step in the right direction

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    I'll just explain what is bothering me, not how to fix it. First is in my opinion our class mechanic which is supposed to be the toolbelt, but in the end, it seems like the kits would better fit the role since we don't have weapon swap and so are kinda forced to use kits in exchange. The problem is kits take a utility slot, and unlike Elementalists, because we must use kits, we can't take the utilities we would like to. Now that the toolbelt already exists for a long time now, it'll be quite complicated to just throw it away and do something else, because our utilities are meant to be two abilities in one because of that. Throwing away half of our skills is not an option. Also for balance and creating new things, there's a big problem, and I'll compare with Elementalists too. When the last one equip a weapon set, he gets 4 versions of one skill, one for each attunment. That means that he can't have in the same build Dagger 2 fire and Scepter 2 Earth for instance. Engineers are capable of mixing every ability they get in kits, and so are able to take skills that are very similar if it existed. And we all know that having the same skill two times, or at least a similar functionnality is very strong in any case. Just look at Rifle Holosmith : he has plenty of dashes when played with rocket boots, and you can evend add Elixir Gun to get a fifth dash. That's a lot, and that's actually why the profession is good in PvP. ArenaNet's option are very narrowed down due to the way kits work. If they want to create a new skill, they have to take in consideration that it could be OP when combined with another skill from one of our kit. I think that's why our elite specs were totally uncreative in my opinion. And I'm very sad about it because I play engineer because I value creative tools, I want to be able to match strange things to get a brand new one. But new engineers specs just keep countering what the core engie is.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2017

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    I'll just explain what is bothering me, not how to fix it.

    It would've made more sense from launch to have kits as the class mechanic, yes. As you are saying, Core Engineer often has to supplement their intentionally under-tuned weapons with 2 mandatory kits to rival the standard: two strong weapons, even a class weapon such as Death Shroud, Celestial Avatar, and so forth.

    This leaves 1 utility slot (for one stunbreak), with a few builds that can pick one kit, one stunbreak, and an actual utility from the remaining 12 skills that aren't kits or defensive stunbreaks. Right off the bat, being forced to burn utility slots to get the baseline weapon equivalent means that anything that's not a stunbreak is often not slot-able in PvP. So I understand why you are bothered.

    There is nothing stopping ArenaNet from balancing properly around having 1-2 mandatory kits as they've done before. When Engineer was powerful in vanilla, before Core Specializations, it was strong despite these restrictions.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2017

    Updated Suggestions (Maybe more, check the OP periodically.)

    Mine Field: Currently: Plant 5 mines around yourself. New: Instead, place a 300 radius field on the ground that lasts for 5 seconds. At every 1 second interval where a foe within the field is moving, a mine explodes on their position. Maximum 3 explosions per second. (Note: The mine's damage and effects are the same as the current Mine Field mines.)

    Explosives Master Short Fuse, now switched places with Inventions Grandmaster Bunker Down.

    Bunker Down, New: To reflect being placed in Explosives as a Master trait, reduced healing from dropped med packs by 33%.

    Short Fuse, New: Now an Inventions Grandmaster, in addition to its current effects, the first Bomb Kit #1 skill used inside a Bomb Kit combo field will generate a blast finisher.

    Orbital Command: New: In addition to its current effects, Your Orbital Strikes & Mortar Shot (Mortar #1) skill deals 33% additional damage.

    Autodefense Bomb Dispenser: In addition to its previous effects, all Smoke Bomb effects grant 3 seconds of stealth to up to 5 allies when activated.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • miriforst.1290miriforst.1290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2017

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    I think Scrapper should become more useful in WvW group content. It has WvW written all over it. A good idea would be for Decisive Renown to instead of granting might, instead, grant 10 targets maximum for abilities that apply super speed to allies.

    Im not sure what role they want scrapper to have. I usually outlive my teammates to power revive them and that's the special thing our "mechanic" brings. And it does nothing in a 1vs1, but doesn't scale up to 5 targets like most other support does (quite the opposite the larger the fight the faster the gyro dies).

    Regarding wvw, here is a few ideas on top of my head that individually might help scrappers in squads (just brainstorming, not all ideas need to be implemented as a complete package).
    [spoiler]

    1. Make the gyros focus on team support. Early on there seemed to be the idea that you could deploy your medic gyro who would then seek out injured targets and heal them, the same for purge. Then due to ai issues and navigation in a fast paced game they where instead made to be on a short leash. What could be done is to have them all pulse their effects (but weaker, so purge only cleanses one condition etc.) in an area similar to sneak gyro.

    2. Reduce personal stability in favor of shared stability. This would make scrapper less oppressive in small scale while helping out in larger fights.

    3. Allow super speed to stack at least once. We got frequent super speed but not in a way that allows us to be mobile outside of kiting around in a spvp capcircle. And since one second of super speed can kill 10 seconds of super speed it would lessen the chance of overwriting super speed by exploding gyros and so on. It would also increase personal survivability

    4. The poison field of purge gyro now has a 45-60s or so cooldown but applies a few seconds of resistance when thrown down. I know the poison helps for cleaving downed enemies, but a second or two of resistance could also allow us to potentially revive through a condibomb if we are lucky.

    5. Detection pulse is now a blast finisher. This can be useful as a non damage blast finisher for blasting waters or smoke.

    6. Shredder gyro toolbelt is now a smoke field/fire field instead of a lightning field. We got lightning fields coming out of our ears with final salvo. Don't know what else can be done for this sad gyro.

    7. Bulwark gyro now reduces damage and no longer transfers damage. In a 1v1 you would have to deal extreme amounts of damage to kill it with transfered damage anyhow while in a teamfight it would be something to focus down asap and in wvw scrapper in a frontline could help vs nukes. Potentially reduce the damage reduction in spvp. Reduce bulwark gyro hp to encouraging killing the gyro quickly.

    8. Give function gyro 1200 range. This might seem odd but it would allow us to creatively snipe corpses way behind an enemy frontline. Its a buff that would hopefully not be significant in the already close combat nature of spvp while allowing a bit more power to our signature move in wvw where its less useful with larger fights and you have to pick targets more carefully.

    9. Decisive renown. Maybe give the revived target some decent stability/resistance to allow them to gtfo out of the situation that got them downed in the first place? Increase icd in this case.

    10. Impact savant, This trait now instead gives you 1-2 seconds of stability when you are crowd controlled. Note that this is applied after the controlling effect takes place, meaning it would mainly prevent mindless chains of controling effects which is something i think most people find anoying. Thinking about it it would also increase the potency of single stability stacks (stability has a 0.75s icd on stack removal, but a single stack allows you to be instantly crowd controlled again). It might be too strong but it would certainly help creating a frontline option for the scrapper where rocket charge/shock shield can be quickly nullified by lightning auras and lines).

    11. Something to make mass momentum not so utterly boring and niche.
      [/spoiler]

    Some of these changes would hopefully weaken the individual scrapper while strengthening his presence with more allies.

    Of course most suggestions would be over the top but it still got me thinking. I love tanking and i love supporting.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    Some of these changes would hopefully weaken the individual scrapper while strengthening his presence with more allies.

    Things your post inspired me to think of:

    Detection pulse - Should be instant like every other AoE reveal that I know of. A blast finisher would be a fair buff but wouldn't quite make sense with the animation.

    Shredder Gyro - Sad Gyro, but an absurdly low CD could work as fodder for Final Salvo. 10s CD would be what it'd take.

    Spare Capacitor - Fire field would be ideal for the burning bolt Shredder Gyro whirl.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • I would argue that it does its job of revealing enemies in stealth fine with counterplay due to animation at the cost of resources like dodge bar or block. It would just be nice to have that blast utility for situations where the enemy does not have stealth (for pveers detection pulse is wasted space, even utility goggles causes vulnerability and for pvpers it does nothing against quite a few classes).

  • Disclaimer: I'm talking about PvP/WvW only.

    A decent elite condition based Mortar Kit could go a long way in making at least core condition Engineer viable (not competitive mind you, just not cannon fodder). With a decent elite weapon kit you could finally dedicate all your utility slots to survival/sustain. Poor power scaling could make the elite kit uninteresting for Holosmith and Scrapper. Additional fluff on the elite tool belt skill, like a decent condition burst and possibly a stun, would not hurt either. Since Holosmith loses the F5 ability a change like that would not directly impact the current top tier builds . Binding Function Gyro to the F5 ability could open up further possibilities. Since at least thematically the Mortar Kit is a firearm and since the Firearms traits are quite lacklustre, there is also room to replace some of them with specific Mortar Kit traits. The Mortar Kit could basically become a Grenade Kit/Bomb Kit 2.0. That idea is not very fresh and leaves core power Engineer in the dust, but at this point I'd much rather have one decent if uninspired PvP weapon kit over several equally bad alternatives.

    In short, in order to make core Engineer at least viable the Engineer elite specialisations, which are pure upgrades over the core class, need to lose some fluff. Making core Engineer the go to PvP/WvW condition build and giving only core Engineer access to a 5th tool belt skill ability might be a start.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    Disclaimer: I'm talking about PvP/WvW only.

    A decent elite condition based Mortar Kit could go a long way in making at least core condition Engineer viable (not competitive mind you, just not cannon fodder). With a decent elite weapon kit you could finally dedicate all your utility slots to survival/sustain. Poor power scaling could make the elite kit uninteresting for Holosmith and Scrapper. Additional fluff on the elite tool belt skill, like a decent condition burst and possibly a stun, would not hurt either. Since Holosmith loses the F5 ability a change like that would not directly impact the current top tier builds . Binding Function Gyro to the F5 ability could open up further possibilities. Since at least thematically the Mortar Kit is a firearm and since the Firearms traits are quite lacklustre, there is also room to replace some of them with specific Mortar Kit traits. The Mortar Kit could basically become a Grenade Kit/Bomb Kit 2.0. That idea is not very fresh and leaves core power Engineer in the dust, but at this point I'd much rather have one decent if uninspired PvP weapon kit over several equally bad alternatives.

    In short, in order to make core Engineer at least viable the Engineer elite specialisations, which are pure upgrades over the core class, need to lose some fluff. Making core Engineer the go to PvP/WvW condition build and giving only core Engineer access to a 5th tool belt skill ability might be a start.

    Engineer does have an F5 skill.... ???. Toss Moa, Orbital Strike, Drop Bandages, Detection Pulse for Scrapper, etc.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Elmo Benchwarmer.3025Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    Disclaimer: I'm talking about PvP/WvW only.

    A decent elite condition based Mortar Kit could go a long way in making at least core condition Engineer viable (not competitive mind you, just not cannon fodder). With a decent elite weapon kit you could finally dedicate all your utility slots to survival/sustain. Poor power scaling could make the elite kit uninteresting for Holosmith and Scrapper. Additional fluff on the elite tool belt skill, like a decent condition burst and possibly a stun, would not hurt either. Since Holosmith loses the F5 ability a change like that would not directly impact the current top tier builds . Binding Function Gyro to the F5 ability could open up further possibilities. Since at least thematically the Mortar Kit is a firearm and since the Firearms traits are quite lacklustre, there is also room to replace some of them with specific Mortar Kit traits. The Mortar Kit could basically become a Grenade Kit/Bomb Kit 2.0. That idea is not very fresh and leaves core power Engineer in the dust, but at this point I'd much rather have one decent if uninspired PvP weapon kit over several equally bad alternatives.

    In short, in order to make core Engineer at least viable the Engineer elite specialisations, which are pure upgrades over the core class, need to lose some fluff. Making core Engineer the go to PvP/WvW condition build and giving only core Engineer access to a 5th tool belt skill ability might be a start.

    Engineer does have an F5 skill.... ???. Toss Moa, Orbital Strike, Drop Bandages, Detection Pulse for Scrapper, etc.

    That's what I said ... ??? !!! Maybe read the post again ... ??? !!!

    Holosmith doesn't have an elite skill tool belt ability. Maybe Scrapper shouldn't have one neither. Maybe Function Gyro should be bound to F5 with some extra fluff to compensate for the lost skill slot. Maybe no future elite specialisation should have an F5 ability. Makes core stand out.

    An off topic advice:

    ... ??? !!!

    The excessive use of punctuation does not put emphasis on your posts. On the contrary. It makes them look rather silly.

    ... ??? !!!

  • @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    I'll just explain what is bothering me, not how to fix it. First is in my opinion our class mechanic which is supposed to be the toolbelt, but in the end, it seems like the kits would better fit the role since we don't have weapon swap and so are kinda forced to use kits in exchange. The problem is kits take a utility slot, and unlike Elementalists, because we must use kits, we can't take the utilities we would like to. Now that the toolbelt already exists for a long time now, it'll be quite complicated to just throw it away and do something else, because our utilities are meant to be two abilities in one because of that. Throwing away half of our skills is not an option. Also for balance and creating new things, there's a big problem, and I'll compare with Elementalists too. When the last one equip a weapon set, he gets 4 versions of one skill, one for each attunment. That means that he can't have in the same build Dagger 2 fire and Scepter 2 Earth for instance. Engineers are capable of mixing every ability they get in kits, and so are able to take skills that are very similar if it existed. And we all know that having the same skill two times, or at least a similar functionnality is very strong in any case. Just look at Rifle Holosmith : he has plenty of dashes when played with rocket boots, and you can evend add Elixir Gun to get a fifth dash. That's a lot, and that's actually why the profession is good in PvP. ArenaNet's option are very narrowed down due to the way kits work. If they want to create a new skill, they have to take in consideration that it could be OP when combined with another skill from one of our kit. I think that's why our elite specs were totally uncreative in my opinion. And I'm very sad about it because I play engineer because I value creative tools, I want to be able to match strange things to get a brand new one. But new engineers specs just keep countering what the core engie is.

    Kits would have be the profession mechanic if elementalist wasn't here.. At last that how i see the things, elementalist has attunments giving them 20 weapons skills with f1/f2/f3/f4 and i suppose anet wanted to do Something different for engineer other than kit swapping like elementalist attunements' that's why they have both:
    -giving kit utilities for engineer
    -Giving utilites swap for revenants

    Both was terrible ideas and don't work as well as elementalist attunements' idea. Revenant lack of personnalisation and effectiveness because of that design point and engineer has the same problem too. Kits are central in our class and so, take more of the utilites skills we have but yeah, they take utilites skills and that's the problem. At last engineer has tool belt which give us some utilites for the utilities we have not due to kits being mandatory that's why we perform better than revenant in my opinion but it still that engineer should have been designed toward kits and the fact that is not ruined all the class and engineer is now in a very odd situation as a class with a lot of broken traits and mechanics.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025
    An off topic advice:
    ... ??? !!!
    ... ??? !!!

    Sorry my dude, your post was genuinely confusing and your usage of the word fluff was not helpful. Took me a few reads to figure Fluff = multiple unspecified strong mechanics that an ability has.

    Giving (only) Engineers access to a fifth toolbelt skill, you can see how that can be interpreted the other way since you literally can not take away Holosmith F5, and it IS a Toolbelt ability (gives vigor/reduced recharge from tools.)

    A better description of that one suggestion would be deleting detection pulse from game which doesn't make core Engi better vs. every other option.

    Your first suggestion to totally re-work mortar kit & Toolbelt to be a Condi heavy beast, would be fun, but likely won't happen since PvE Condi Engi uses mortar for the poison shell & orbital strike already. Instead of devoting utility slots to defense it'll just take the same and enjoy mega PvE DPS buff.

    My preferred way to slide Condi Engi into viable status would be to allow inventions to actually provide highly relevant survivability as per my suggestions to change base turrets (20s CD, cooldown starts immediately, but no auto attacks, Flame Turret overcharge applies weakness too), Autodefense Bomb Dispenser (Smoke Bombs grant 3s Stealth), Soothing Detonation (Procs a Water Blast with 2s ICD when you blast.), Experimental Turrets (Boon durations buffed a bit.) Advanced Turrets (Faster Shielding & Turret knocks), Short Fuse (Swapped to Bunker Down's position & allows first Bomb #1 skill to blast each bomb field.)

    Now remember those proposed changes and look at these (now viable) condi builds:

    Rabid Turret Scrapper (Scrapper changes to note: Shocking Speed gives Shocking Aura when you proc Decisive Renown, which now also activates on Heal. Expert Examination procs on all disables, like shield/turret knocks.)
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelUUhatYlVwuKw6FLsFFYIWiBQYNMbxGdvX8JPA-jJxgABAs/gZPAgUPBAYWGAA

    Sage's Turret Engineer
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUhatYlVwqKw6FLsFlYHVF3Y4SNbxG4HWiBAA-jJhAQBn7BAIxyAEa/BAcCAAA

    Sage's Bomb Engineer (Iron-Blooded changed to give prot while in kits.)
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUhatY9VwPLQ7FLsFV4StivmYHVF3I4HWiBAA-jJBHABqt/A+lBa+BAAwJAAA

    Rabid Bomb Engineer
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUhatY9VwPLQ+FLsFV4SdRvG4HWiBgYHNFPBA-jJhAABws/AAnAgzfAAkVGAA

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    Mortar kit should be a power kit with disrupting condies such as blind daze and chill, instead of asking for mortar to be reworked as a condi kit ask for nades to be un nerfed i say, wish mortar kit had the old mortar 5 too :c