Conditions will ALWAYS be too strong — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Conditions will ALWAYS be too strong

gmmg.9210gmmg.9210 Member ✭✭

Anet said it themselves, they want condi's to be as viable as DPS. This statement alone forced me to conclude that this is a casual game and here's why:

Dots in MMO's have traditionally been a source of secondary damage, allowing for damage over time while primary damage remains as a bedrock. So why has it been like this in the past? Because unlike DPS, dots tend to have little to no counters or telegraphs, and essentially boils down to number damage. Removing or stalling them is the only counter. Other stats wouldn't help unlike their DPS counter-parts, and the animations wouldn't help convey that they would be hit by damage that does it's effects over time. And even with all of this said, dots have taken flak in the past.
Now let's go to this game: Condi's are as viable as DPS. That means that if you spec into a DPS build you have to go against someone's toughness and vitality to kill them. Because it's direct damage it can be evaded due to dodges in the game, blocked, negated due to boons or passives, etc.
Now with condi's, it helps to have more vitality (as it does against DPS because it's your life-bar essentially), but toughness doesn't do a thing. There's no counter stat against condition damage/duration.

  1. Power->Toughness, Condition damage/ Condition duration->Nothing.

Why haven't we seen a stat that increases boon effectiveness? Like a stat that makes a single stack of might give out more power, or a single stack of regen give out more health? Because then the game would be too boon-heavy and everyone would be too reliant on boons, especially with the added boon duration. But wait, conditions already have this in the form of dots with two stats attached to them and there's no counter stat (unlike the power counterpart). So... it's stronger by definition. Now this would be fine if conditions weren't as easy to dish out but of course Anet lets you throw them out like candy on Halloween.

  1. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

I don't expect either of these points will ever be addressed because Anet fundamentally disagrees with how dots and banes should work in their game. But if these simple two things were brought up and fixed, this game would live up to the combat system it already has.

What's so tragic about conditions and essentially number damage in this game is that combat at first glance is so physically motivated. It has a two weapon system, dodges, and telegraphed abilities that made it stand apart as not just another floaty feeling MMO. It feels designed for pvp.
But conditions, their power, and the unwillingness of Anet to address them, is wearing this game down to the point of hopelessness. It feels like this combat system was designed, nearly perfected, and then left to be slowly scrambled by the decadence of time.

Please Anet, I know it's a hard task to balance, but please address conditions.

Imagine there's no condi

<1

Comments

  • could at least give extra pvp armor/runes with condi resist...

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @GrahamW.5397 said:
    Conditions aren't an issue right now in wvw. The issue right now is the amount of boonrips/corrupts that scourges and spellbreakers are pooping out.

    Boonspam is a thing.

    Somewhere chasing bags....

  • @gmmg.9210 said:
    2. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

    This is the only real issue to me, Condis are beeing applied so incredibly fast that no amount of resistance (since it's getting corrupted/ripped) and especially no amount of condi clear can get rid of it. Maybe Condi Clears should also give 1/2s grace where you can't get any conditions or 1/2s per Condi cleared. And then we could also get rid of Resistance and start designing more interesting counterplay to Condis!

    Oh and either way Enchantment Collapse still needs a nerf.

    As the old worlds fall behind
    Our spirit reaches wide
    With no fear breathing new life
    Awaken from the dark dark slumber

    Wintersun - Awaken from the dark slumber (Spring) - Part II The Awakening

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭

    @gmmg.9210 said:

    1. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

    THIS. Exactly this 'effin thing is annoying the devil out of me. Seriously, this is wrong on so many levels. There's virtually no defence against this type of cancerous damage application.

    To clarify, I ran a boon druid loaded with utilities to clear condis and celestial avatar as well. Normally I have no issues defeating even the tankiest classes, but it's insane to even think of fighting something that endlessly passively applies condis and given how limiting the game is by design (limited in mobility due to endurance, limited due to cooldowns and in condi clearance) it's just impossible to fight the cheesiest of builds (which most run of course) like warriors that continuously apply burning around them (18 stacks of the most powerful condi is a everyday thing without the slightest effort) and everyone knows it's very hard to escape a warrior due to their excellent mobility (since they have been granted everything like god's favoured son) they just passively keep applying condis and once you run out of cleanse (which you eventually do) and mobility there is absolutely nothing to defend yourself with against them.

    Same with Scourges. These two classes are atm. entirely ruining the game. I was trying to evade a Scourge that due to very high range on their weapon constantly managed to keep up, chill me and apply a number of conditions that despite my enormous amount of condi cleanse I was just unable to get rid of because they apply condis with every breath.

    This game is beyond frustrating to play and it's the psychological factor they engineered it with so that you scratch your head and push yourself to try again - human nature, until you eventually realise it's utter nonsense and uninstall at some point.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017

    @Inoki.6048 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:

    1. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

    THIS. Exactly this 'effin thing is annoying the devil out of me. Seriously, this is wrong on so many levels. There's virtually no defence against this type of cancerous damage application.

    To clarify, I ran a boon druid loaded with utilities to clear condis and celestial avatar as well. Normally I have no issues defeating even the tankiest classes, but it's insane to even think of fighting something that endlessly passively applies condis and given how limiting the game is by design (limited in mobility due to endurance, limited due to cooldowns and in condi clearance) it's just impossible to fight the cheesiest of builds (which most run of course) like warriors that continuously apply burning around them (18 stacks of the most powerful condi is a everyday thing without the slightest effort) and everyone knows it's very hard to escape a warrior due to their excellent mobility (since they have been granted everything like god's favoured son) they just passively keep applying condis and once you run out of cleanse (which you eventually do) and mobility there is absolutely nothing to defend yourself with against them.

    Same with Scourges. These two classes are atm. entirely ruining the game. I was trying to evade a Scourge that due to very high range on their weapon constantly managed to keep up, chill me and apply a number of conditions that despite my enormous amount of condi cleanse I was just unable to get rid of because they apply condis with every breath.

    This game is beyond frustrating to play and it's the psychological factor they engineered it with so that you scratch your head and push yourself to try again - human nature, until you eventually realise it's utter nonsense and uninstall at some point.

    That is why i have been asking for changes to make skill more similiar to gw1, with hexes and some condis converted into hexes more based on stances and skills that end stances, real shouts, chants, wards, but then i remember this is a game to rewards low skill players with gimmicks...
    Everythin in gw2 is a bit more of the same...
    What was possible to reach on spike and gank on gw1 required very good team work, while here only 2 or 3 key mashes and u will down several players due how this game needs to carry and make not so good players "eficient".

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Inoki.6048 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:

    this is a game to rewards low skill players with gimmicks...

    Precisely.

  • Odokuro.5049Odokuro.5049 Member ✭✭✭

    They need to make Vitality the statistical counter to Condition Damage, like Toughness is for Power Damage. This alone will fix a lot of issues, that and changing how often you can apply Conditions, and the way Conditions are cleared at least when it comes to sPvP/WvW.

    When it comes to Armor sets, they need to make more glassy sets such as Vipers/Sinister and remove/nerf sets like Dire/Trailblazers because when it comes to stats needed to reach optimum DoT Damage, you require a single stat, opposed to Power Damage builds that need at least two if not three (Power+Precision / Ferocity) to reach optimum DPS, which allows most Condition Builds to utilize stats such as Dire/TB with little to no drawbacks.

    So as a list:
    1. Vitality needs to counter Condition Damage.
    2. How often Conditions are applied needs to be different then it is in PvE.
    3. Cleansing Conditions on your self needs to be far more effective, since most Condition Clears seem to be PvE centric, where Mobs are less likely to Condi-bomb/spam you to death.
    4. Gear sets such as Dire/Trailblazers need to be changed/nerfed so that Condition builds can not have the best of both worlds. (High Damage / High Sustain and Survivablity.)

    The Self-Appointed Pervy Sage of Dragonbrand.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017

    Conditions HAVE to be applied faster then they can be cleared. I am not sure why people continue to suggest this should not be the case. In a 1v1 virtually every matchup can see a person with cleanses versus a person using conditions prevail. It does not follow that in such an instance the person using condition cleanses should never take damage.I should not expect my blocks/invulns and heals to keep up with the power damage another class can inflict so am not clear as to why this should have to be the case with conditions.

    Once a person outnumbered by Condition classes he will take more damage and those cleanses will be much less adequate. This is how it should be because if they could handle a 1v2 and 3 cleanse wise, they would never have issues with a 1v1.

    Dire/Tb has little to nothing to do with this despite the insistence on the same. Power damage is more then adequate to take down people in dire or TB and in fact many condition builds use armors other than those and are just as effective if not more so. (Put a condition user warrior or Thief in a combo of shamans or apothecary as example and you will see what I mean. Slap on grievers and you will see what I mean). Added to that this is not a world of either/or. A Dire/tb user is just as susceptiple to conditions as is a power user and a hybrid build using a mix of power and conditions will generally win such a matchup.

    THE major issue in my opinion is AOE applications of conditions that are at range or mobile with user, that do not need targets and can just saturate areas thus neutralizing melee power , and that can be stacked with a multiple of other AOE's. These too easily distort any semblance of balance as the ability to apply conditions is magnified several times over due to it hitting multiple targets and the skill level drops due to there being no target needed.

    There does not need to be major changes made. Tuning is most certainly needed and especially when it comes to the use of AOEtype skills. With power most Applications of AOE damage (such as a trap) are one offs . Those that are not can be tuned if they deemed to powerful via the Damage factor of the given skill. With AOE condition apps in persistent fields two stacks of torment will hit JUST as hard as two stacks of torment on a given weapon skill intended for a single target. The frequency of these need to be looked at along with the amount of stacks and the types of conditions being applied on any given pulse as they are out of whack even in a 1v1.

    Boon Corruption is another matter entirely. Boon Spam is just as much an issue . If it were up to me I would never have put Boon corruption onto a weapon's AA as it is on Necro Sceptre. I would have put it on a skill with an ICD or it least one that needs an entirely separate trait to be taken for the same with an ICD.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Conditions HAVE to be applied faster then they can be cleared. I am not sure why people continue to suggest this should not be the case. In a 1v1 virtually every matchup can see a person with cleanses versus a person using conditions prevail. It does not follow that in such an instance the person using condition cleanses should never take damage.I should not expect my blocks/invulns and heals to keep up with the power damage another class can inflict so am not clear as to why this should have to be the case with conditions.

    It's because they don't think conditions have the right to harm them, that's why they hold them to a different standard.

    And that's aside from the fact that 90% of complaints about conditions are actually complaining about necromancers specifically, and generalizing onto all condition builds in the game.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is no different than several melee swinging at a player at once. This is also no different than several ranged players focusing down a player at once. People are dying because they are getting hit by multiple players casting conditions at once. The only difference is, conditions can be rendered 100% useless fairly easily due to resistance.

    So now the question is, why is melee allowed to run unopposed and be allowed to multiple melee focus down a player or group at once? Why are several ranged allowed to focus down a player at once? By your own accord, should physical damage then be reduced to allow a single player to out heal several melee attacking them at once?

    Physical damage can be applied faster than it can be healed through... Not only that, players can run around with 100% resistance up time.

    Perhaps resistance should be changed to nullify a portion of condition damage much like barrier does. Then get rid of that crippling problem that necros have with "obstructed obstructed obstructed obstructed obstructed" because frankly all a player has to do now to avoid being hit by a shade is hide behind a blade of grass.

  • From the perceive of someone new to wvw, This is worse than the Wvw system in Elder scrolls online, and that's honest to god amazing how they did it. I mean, pvp in Eso can be fun, you don't get instant death by Nightblades, don't get Jesus beamed to death by someone who is attacking on the backline, Or my favorite, gap closing into a loading screen lol. Pvp in eso is the most unbalance, unpolished, and unstable pvp environment I have ever played. But at the very least I can still have fun if no kitten is involved.
    In Wvw, the only way I'll have any real fun, is when I join a zerg wipe the enemy team with nonsense like condi. That's it. And I still somehow don't feel good about it, because I know how we went about it is kitten to. But what can me and a zerg do? We have no option to deal with this condi meta. And god help you if you're ever considering 1vxing. It leaves a poor, Poor impression to any player who joins Wvw the first time. It's kitten. It make me feel like a piece of kitten whenever I do wvw, and it's something I want to enjoy to.

    i think the worse thing is that the Devs of this game doesn't care. It doesn't help that the community manager is Condescending as all hell too. They're banking on Pve and lootboxes. Pvp and wvw are just afterthoughts imo.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    This is no different than several melee swinging at a player at once. This is also no different than several ranged players focusing down a player at once. People are dying because they are getting hit by multiple players casting conditions at once. The only difference is, conditions can be rendered 100% useless fairly easily due to resistance.

    So now the question is, why is melee allowed to run unopposed and be allowed to multiple melee focus down a player or group at once? Why are several ranged allowed to focus down a player at once? By your own accord, should physical damage then be reduced to allow a single player to out heal several melee attacking them at once?

    Physical damage can be applied faster than it can be healed through... Not only that, players can run around with 100% resistance up time.

    Perhaps resistance should be changed to nullify a portion of condition damage much like barrier does. Then get rid of that crippling problem that necros have with "obstructed obstructed obstructed obstructed obstructed" because frankly all a player has to do now to avoid being hit by a shade is hide behind a blade of grass.

    AOE conditions are very different then melee or ranged focus. Ranged focus with power requires a target outside a very few small number of attacks and is generally single target. P/P unload, Ranger Rapidfire are single target just as example. Added to that a ranged attack can be reflected or dodged much more easily then a big circle of AOE stacked on top of you. As example if two people focus me with a p/p unload I can dodge and both miss. If two people focus me with one of those persistent AOE fields I dodge out of one field and into the other.

    Cleave is very much the same thing. First its range is only 130 but added to that if two people cleaving I can dodge both at once. With a persistent AOE field this can not be done. When I am speaking about the AOE condition applications I am not talking about ones that are fired and then are gone. I am talking about the persistent fields that continously apply conditions to any in that area.

    Nor am i saying that those AOE type fields that apply conditions should not exist. I am suggesting they are overtuned. There a great difference in a field that applies one stack of torment every second from a field that lasts 5 seconds as compared to a field that applies 2 stacks of torment per second along with cripple in a field lasting 5 seconds. What I suggest is the durations of these fields and or the amounts of conditions applied per pulse needs to be tuned very much like those DH traps were tuned.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    oops can not delete a double post so ediuting

  • coglin.1496coglin.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    Anet said it themselves, they want condi's to be as viable as DPS. This statement alone forced me to conclude that this is a casual game.

    You lost me here, so I admit I did not go any further. If desiring something to be "viable" causes you to jump to the conclusion of inevitable and infinite over poweredness of one of two damage types, you are not approaching the notion from a rational perspective in the first place. Thus you clearly do not seek a discussion.

    Do not confuse your objective opinion with that of objective fact. Remember, what you say matters, not what you meant to say.

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Odokuro.5049 said:
    Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.

    It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".

    All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.

    Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

    Well said.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Reaper Alim.4176 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    it should just be a thing in pve not wvw or pvp. it'll take them years to figure out tho

    It only take a completely noob MMO development team like Zenimax Online Studios one year to figure this out. As many other MMO companies. I'm pretty sure ANet has been figured this out as well.

    They just refuse the implement it. Because then GW2 would actually be less inviting to the super bad or super casual gamers like all of the other MMOs on the market. Remember ANet's initial pledge about GW2? "If you like MMOs than you will like GW2. But if you don't like MMOs than you will really like GW2." ANet just has pretty been fully iterating on that pledge. More so since GW2 got kicked from ESL.

    So this is what we get. A game only meant for bad or super casual gamers. Most who don't fall in those brackets will just play other MMORPGs or actually PvP oriented titles.

    Well said

    As i said way too many times, Anet knows the problems but refuse to implement solutions

  • Odokuro.5049Odokuro.5049 Member ✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Reaper Alim.4176 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    it should just be a thing in pve not wvw or pvp. it'll take them years to figure out tho

    It only take a completely noob MMO development team like Zenimax Online Studios one year to figure this out. As many other MMO companies. I'm pretty sure ANet has been figured this out as well.

    They just refuse the implement it. Because then GW2 would actually be less inviting to the super bad or super casual gamers like all of the other MMOs on the market. Remember ANet's initial pledge about GW2? "If you like MMOs than you will like GW2. But if you don't like MMOs than you will really like GW2." ANet just has pretty been fully iterating on that pledge. More so since GW2 got kicked from ESL.

    So this is what we get. A game only meant for bad or super casual gamers. Most who don't fall in those brackets will just play other MMORPGs or actually PvP oriented titles.

    Well said

    As i said way too many times, Anet knows the problems but refuse to implement solutions

    Some time ago, a statement from ANet was released and it was something along the lines of, "Player A deals 1k damage upfront while Player B deals 1k damage over X amount of time", and they went on to, people would choose to be player A, all the time. Well here's the thing, player A has to land those hits over and over to deal that damage, while player B, gets to wiff conditions out at high speeds.

    The Self-Appointed Pervy Sage of Dragonbrand.

  • It's not conditions, it's the classes. I play either support firebrand (where you can pump out condi clear and conversion) support herald (where you get hella resistance from taking condis from your allies) or Condi renegade with legendary renegade stance (which is in no way overpowered at all and probably needs a buff)

    Blanket nerfing conditions is not the way to go. There is a lot of classes or specs that are just not amazing even with conditions. Nerfing the amount of conditions applied by certain classes is probably better, or by helping to reduce some of the boon rip. Guards, Revs, and Warriors who are usually leading the charge all have some way of getting resistance, the issue is that it's taken off immediately.

    Once again, PLEASE do not nerf conditions as a whole. I find condi legendary renegade staff super enjoyable even though it's not that great. It's already nowhere near meta and I get squashed by meta builds and if it gets nerfed even more it'll be entirely unusable.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Inoki.6048 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:

    1. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

    THIS. Exactly this 'effin thing is annoying the devil out of me. Seriously, this is wrong on so many levels. There's virtually no defence against this type of cancerous damage application.

    To clarify, I ran a boon druid loaded with utilities to clear condis and celestial avatar as well. Normally I have no issues defeating even the tankiest classes, but it's insane to even think of fighting something that endlessly passively applies condis and given how limiting the game is by design (limited in mobility due to endurance, limited due to cooldowns and in condi clearance) it's just impossible to fight the cheesiest of builds (which most run of course) like warriors that continuously apply burning around them (18 stacks of the most powerful condi is a everyday thing without the slightest effort) and everyone knows it's very hard to escape a warrior due to their excellent mobility (since they have been granted everything like god's favoured son) they just passively keep applying condis and once you run out of cleanse (which you eventually do) and mobility there is absolutely nothing to defend yourself with against them.

    Same with Scourges. These two classes are atm. entirely ruining the game. I was trying to evade a Scourge that due to very high range on their weapon constantly managed to keep up, chill me and apply a number of conditions that despite my enormous amount of condi cleanse I was just unable to get rid of because they apply condis with every breath.

    This game is beyond frustrating to play and it's the psychological factor they engineered it with so that you scratch your head and push yourself to try again - human nature, until you eventually realise it's utter nonsense and uninstall at some point.

    Well, son... Here's your problem... You don't adapt. Rangers have WAY more range than Scourges. As someone that has been mostly playing as scourge in PvP, i can tell you, there aren't many things that can mess me up more than a longbow ranger. Also, having played condi soulbeast for a while i had no issue burning through most scourges and spellbreakers.

    And yes, there's an issue with condition damage, especially in PvP.
    In PvE condi damage becomes prevalent in most bosses that don't have invulnerability phases, simply because condi damage grows geometrically, and it's ceiling is pretty high (the more condis you stack the more damage you do, so your damage is limited only by the duration of the stacks). While power damage has a very finite ceiling (that being of 100% crit with maxed power and ferocity), it doesn't grow over time like condition damage, but also it DOESN'T HAVE to grow over time.

    So in short fights, or bosses that phase quickly, power damage is superior, because of it's instant bursting potential. And for the most part those distinctions work well. Power delivers instant bursts of damage (which is mitigated with toughness), while condis grow over time (without mitigation).
    In PvE the balance is achieved somewhat easily simply by making sure that there's a balance between the time it takes for condis to scale into "cruise speed" and the damage output of power builds. And in most cases, in bosses that phase quickly you'll see a predominance of power builds vs a predominance of condi builds for the more drawn out fights.
    So, PvE is working fairly well, with balance being an issue of simply managing the speed of condi stacking.

    in PvP is a different matter altogether.
    For starters because of the comparatively low HP pools (as compared to mobs and bosses) the speed with which condition damage and power damage applies is pretty much the same. So classes that can stack multiple conditions faster (like scourge) end up overwhelming everything in the playing field.
    At the same time, again, because of the comparatively low HP pools, you can't really expect condi users to ramp up their damage slowly, because they'd die before that damage takes effect.

    So what could help this?
    Well, larger HP pools would give each side of the coin more time to work. But that would mean that fights also last a bit longer, potentially requiring the duration of matches to increase.
    Limiting the number of conditions per stack could allow some counter-play for condition damage.
    Adding a pvp-exclusive mechanic that reduces cooldowns on cleanses for each stack of conditions or different conditions applied on you might help.
    Adding a action skill for condi cleanse after you reach a certain threshold?

    TLDR:
    The real issue isn't condition damage vs power damage. Its that Arena Net focused solely on providing power creep, without providing the defensive component to answer that power creep. So we have higher offensive capabilities with very limited defensive ones.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Odokuro.5049 said:
    Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.

    It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".

    All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.

    Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

    Unlimited condition removal is NOT needed nor is it good for the game. Unlimited blocks and Invulns do not exist to deal with power , nor should it. Could you point to these posts where people claimed or suggested that condition removal was "unlimited" ?

  • @Odokuro.5049 said:
    Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.

    It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".

    All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.

    Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

    If you're gonna sit here and tell me condi renegade is OP and doesn't require hands on attention, we need to talk.

    Problem is certain classes, not conditions in general. In PvP/WvW condi elementalist isn't overly OP, neither is Condi renegade.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭

    The issue with conditions has always been the fact that condition mitigation in the form of cleanses loses its effects drastically when scaled up against multiple players. Power damage mitigation applies equally to everyone attacking you. If two condition players are dropping condis on you, classes are only built to handle removing the conditions from one other player (because more than that would obviously be overpowered and make PvP condition builds useless). This of course has the downside of making the game really feel lame to play. Where you could 1vX lesser skilled players in power builds thanks to mitigation and smart positioning, against conditions its drastically harder with far less skill on the enemies part because they debilitate you simply by existing and you can't counter multiple of them (except through resistance spam, guess who was the number one roamer for a while because of their ability to 1vX? Oh, the class with the best resistance uptime).

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Even before ANET decided to turn every condi into another type of bleed...condi was flawed from inception by even having a stat for it. This gave the expectation that it should/would scale.

    GW1 capped Degen for reason. Not only did it ignore armor, but this conditioned (hah pun) players to spread out the poison/hexes to put pressure on the whole party. This also meant encounters weren't just a few damage sponges (that GW2 pve ultimately boils down to). It was probably more of an issue wanting to change GW1's balance for the sake of variety in GW2 without assessing why GW1 did it that way...

    I somewhat recall degen uncapped at an early point in GW1 which was overpowered in terms of spike damage, so they made the change to cap it...memory could be bad but eh!

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • JayAction.9056JayAction.9056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    Pre-HOT coordinated groups had multiple individuals who brought group condi cleanse. (The only reason to be in a group along with boon/heal priority)

    Condis are stronger now and you see a lot less groups with condi cleanse.

    You guys need to # learn to play

  • My magic 8-ball says that a year from now, scourges and firebrands will get condi-clear on their auto-attack, with no significant other changes.

  • Odokuro.5049Odokuro.5049 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odokuro.5049 said:
    Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.

    It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".

    All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.

    Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

    Unlimited condition removal is NOT needed nor is it good for the game. Unlimited blocks and Invulns do not exist to deal with power , nor should it. Could you point to these posts where people claimed or suggested that condition removal was "unlimited" ?

    It's not that they have said those words, directly. It's the constant, "Use condition cleanses/clears", or "There's this thing called, RESISTANCE", which give you the impression that people think that you can somehow dish out unlimited uses of these cleans/clears/resistances, when they're just bombing/spamming the kitten out of you and there's nothing you can do about it.

    Most builds in WvW that are part of the, "Blob", mentality and do things like roam/small group/havoc, don't have umpteen cleanses/clears and mass sources of resistance to even counter act the mass amount of condition spam going around, and it all comes down to being able to burst them down, which again, is hard, when you have people running around with 3,100 Armor+ and 23,000 HP+, that only have to rely on one stat to dish out what power builds need three for.

    And people use scourge as an example not to cherry pick, but, because that's what you see the most out in WvW, they have two very very strong conditions burning/torment that will just keep getting re-applied over and over while your defense against it is used up, and on CD.

    The Self-Appointed Pervy Sage of Dragonbrand.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    Anet said it themselves, they want condi's to be as viable as DPS. This statement alone forced me to conclude that this is a casual game and here's why:

    Dots in MMO's have traditionally been a source of secondary damage, allowing for damage over time while primary damage remains as a bedrock. So why has it been like this in the past? Because unlike DPS, dots tend to have little to no counters or telegraphs, and essentially boils down to number damage. Removing or stalling them is the only counter. Other stats wouldn't help unlike their DPS counter-parts, and the animations wouldn't help convey that they would be hit by damage that does it's effects over time. And even with all of this said, dots have taken flak in the past.
    Now let's go to this game: Condi's are as viable as DPS. That means that if you spec into a DPS build you have to go against someone's toughness and vitality to kill them. Because it's direct damage it can be evaded due to dodges in the game, blocked, negated due to boons or passives, etc.
    Now with condi's, it helps to have more vitality (as it does against DPS because it's your life-bar essentially), but toughness doesn't do a thing. There's no counter stat against condition damage/duration.

    1. Power->Toughness, Condition damage/ Condition duration->Nothing.

    Why haven't we seen a stat that increases boon effectiveness? Like a stat that makes a single stack of might give out more power, or a single stack of regen give out more health? Because then the game would be too boon-heavy and everyone would be too reliant on boons, especially with the added boon duration. But wait, conditions already have this in the form of dots with two stats attached to them and there's no counter stat (unlike the power counterpart). So... it's stronger by definition. Now this would be fine if conditions weren't as easy to dish out but of course Anet lets you throw them out like candy on Halloween.

    vitality is the stat against condi dmg. you dont need to waste points in toughness, so its easier to defend against condis than against power, where you need toughness AND vitality

    1. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

    I don't expect either of these points will ever be addressed because Anet fundamentally disagrees with how dots and banes should work in their game. But if these simple two things were brought up and fixed, this game would live up to the combat system it already has.

    What's so tragic about conditions and essentially number damage in this game is that combat at first glance is so physically motivated. It has a two weapon system, dodges, and telegraphed abilities that made it stand apart as not just another floaty feeling MMO. It feels designed for pvp.
    But conditions, their power, and the unwillingness of Anet to address them, is wearing this game down to the point of hopelessness. It feels like this combat system was designed, nearly perfected, and then left to be slowly scrambled by the decadence of time.

    Please Anet, I know it's a hard task to balance, but please address conditions.

    most people just cannot handle conditions because they spam brainless their condi removals. if you play with brain you can handle condis on every class. use dodges, invuls to evade the burst skills (condition apllying skills can be dodged like power based skills, idk why you told omething else) of the enemy. if you get hitted you can cleans it. dont clean 1 stack of bleeding. you can collect them until a critical point and then clean it. on that way every class can ez handle that. simply l2p issue.

  • Odokuro.5049Odokuro.5049 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    Anet said it themselves, they want condi's to be as viable as DPS. This statement alone forced me to conclude that this is a casual game and here's why:

    Dots in MMO's have traditionally been a source of secondary damage, allowing for damage over time while primary damage remains as a bedrock. So why has it been like this in the past? Because unlike DPS, dots tend to have little to no counters or telegraphs, and essentially boils down to number damage. Removing or stalling them is the only counter. Other stats wouldn't help unlike their DPS counter-parts, and the animations wouldn't help convey that they would be hit by damage that does it's effects over time. And even with all of this said, dots have taken flak in the past.
    Now let's go to this game: Condi's are as viable as DPS. That means that if you spec into a DPS build you have to go against someone's toughness and vitality to kill them. Because it's direct damage it can be evaded due to dodges in the game, blocked, negated due to boons or passives, etc.
    Now with condi's, it helps to have more vitality (as it does against DPS because it's your life-bar essentially), but toughness doesn't do a thing. There's no counter stat against condition damage/duration.

    1. Power->Toughness, Condition damage/ Condition duration->Nothing.

    Why haven't we seen a stat that increases boon effectiveness? Like a stat that makes a single stack of might give out more power, or a single stack of regen give out more health? Because then the game would be too boon-heavy and everyone would be too reliant on boons, especially with the added boon duration. But wait, conditions already have this in the form of dots with two stats attached to them and there's no counter stat (unlike the power counterpart). So... it's stronger by definition. Now this would be fine if conditions weren't as easy to dish out but of course Anet lets you throw them out like candy on Halloween.

    vitality is the stat against condi dmg. you dont need to waste points in toughness, so its easier to defend against condis than against power, where you need toughness AND vitality

    1. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

    I don't expect either of these points will ever be addressed because Anet fundamentally disagrees with how dots and banes should work in their game. But if these simple two things were brought up and fixed, this game would live up to the combat system it already has.

    What's so tragic about conditions and essentially number damage in this game is that combat at first glance is so physically motivated. It has a two weapon system, dodges, and telegraphed abilities that made it stand apart as not just another floaty feeling MMO. It feels designed for pvp.
    But conditions, their power, and the unwillingness of Anet to address them, is wearing this game down to the point of hopelessness. It feels like this combat system was designed, nearly perfected, and then left to be slowly scrambled by the decadence of time.

    Please Anet, I know it's a hard task to balance, but please address conditions.

    most people just cannot handle conditions because they spam brainless their condi removals. if you play with brain you can handle condis on every class. use dodges, invuls to evade the burst skills (condition apllying skills can be dodged like power based skills, idk why you told omething else) of the enemy. if you get hitted you can cleans it. dont clean 1 stack of bleeding. you can collect them until a critical point and then clean it. on that way every class can ez handle that. simply l2p issue.

    Vitality does not counter incoming Condition damage, like Toughness counters incoming Power damage. And what if we do play smart and cleanse/clear at that critical point and them BAM, hit with the same condition spam again, what's that? Ohh, I can dodge twice, cool, I'll avoid two attacks and then stand up to get crapped on by more condition spam. Ohh wait, I can use Resistance, alright, popped that, it's over, BAM more conditions....

    I don't expect to be able to become invuln to conditions 100% of the time, but it starts to feel pointless to avoid/cleans/clear/resist conditions when as soon as you remove/resist those conditions, they're right back on you, melting you, and all you can do is pray that you can kill them before they kill you or else it's game over.

    The Self-Appointed Pervy Sage of Dragonbrand.

  • Would a map wide buff that decreases damage received by 5% do anything to help?

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    vitality is the stat against condi dmg. you dont need to waste points in toughness, so its easier to defend against condis than against power, where you need toughness AND vitality

    Well, technically, Toughness does help against condition attacks, because most of them apply direct damage as well as the conditions, so while VERY minor it will have a slight, if ineffectual affect. The same goes for Vitality. Health is rather point against Condition builds due to the sheer damage they do.

    @Zero.3871 said:
    most people just cannot handle conditions because they spam brainless their condi removals. if you play with brain you can handle condis on every class. use dodges, invuls to evade the burst skills (condition apllying skills can be dodged like power based skills, idk why you told omething else) of the enemy. if you get hitted you can cleans it. dont clean 1 stack of bleeding. you can collect them until a critical point and then clean it. on that way every class can ez handle that. simply l2p issue.

    This is also wrong. This also makes me think you are a condi player that wants to pretend that condition based builds actually require skill (they dont) until application is balanced against removal. May dont 50/50 but not the 90/10 it currently is in favor of conditions, they will never be considered skill based.

    You could wait until you have loads of conditions you before you remove them, the problem is. Seconds later you have another 5 conditions on you with various amounts of stacks. While application SO vastly out does removals never going to be fun playing against bunker condition builds.

    Condition damage AND application needs to be toned down, dont worry though. It wont be but its what SHOULD be happening. There are SO many builds where you spam a few buttons to riddle people with conditions then just jump around while the conditions do all the work. Those conditions get removed? Well, hes another 5 conditions for you to remove and then some more and more and more.

    The same goes for the broken direct damage builds that can down someone from 100% health to 0% in a second or 2. These arent skill based build. They are builds that are HEAVILY reliant on the DREADFUL balance for them to be effective. The problem is, these builds CANT be fixed. The player base for a VERY large part is now too reliant on easy builds now that its too the point that ANY attempt at bringing in ACTUAL balance would be met with hatred and anger for making their faceroll easy builds tougher to faceroll with.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017
    • Problem:. condi tends to be unavoidable, "cheesy" damage: Scourge instant massive corrupting aoe around the player, Thief evade spam, Mesmer clones applying condi passively, etc.
    • Solution: take condi application away from "cheesy" skills and move it to skills that have more counterplay.

    • Problem: condi only requires 1 stat to be effective. power requires 3

    • Solution: make condi require precision. i.e. take some of the condi stacks and make them conditional on crits. Possibly make condi damage also scale off ferocity slightly. Obviously, this would require some rebalancing to keep overall dps the same.

    • Problem: condi application (both # of condi, and # of stacks) and cleanse (across classes, across builds) are not balanced.

    • Solution: huge game-wide condi rebalance. eg. massive reduction in cleanse across classes, rebalance duration to make condi more DoT than burst. Possibly split damaging condi and damaging cleanse from other condi.
  • Jaruselka.5943Jaruselka.5943 Member ✭✭✭

    I've been wondering if the concept of AOE "saturation" would work. Basically an area can only have a certain number of conditions (a "saturation point") and ADDING more conditions to that area begins to REDUCE its effectiveness. This means that condi players have to actually think about how and when to apply AOE conditions instead of mindlessly pressing buttons. There could be some kind of indicator showing areas where the conditions are less effective...

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Possibly make condi damage also scale off ferocity slightly.

    Ferocity should have nothing to do with conditions at all.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    Possibly make condi damage also scale off ferocity slightly.

    Ferocity should have nothing to do with conditions at all.

    Yeah, just trying to find another stat to make full-dps condi be more glass and less tanky. If you're going to condi-burst like a glass cannon, you ought be fragile like a glass cannon too. That means spending stats on damage rather than getting it all 'for free' from one.

    It should probably be condi duration, so a condi build would be Condi Damage (primary), Condi Duration (secondary) and Precision (secondary).

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odokuro.5049 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odokuro.5049 said:
    Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.

    It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".

    All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.

    Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

    Unlimited condition removal is NOT needed nor is it good for the game. Unlimited blocks and Invulns do not exist to deal with power , nor should it. Could you point to these posts where people claimed or suggested that condition removal was "unlimited" ?

    It's not that they have said those words, directly. It's the constant, "Use condition cleanses/clears", or "There's this thing called, RESISTANCE", which give you the impression that people think that you can somehow dish out unlimited uses of these cleans/clears/resistances, when they're just bombing/spamming the kitten out of you and there's nothing you can do about it.

    Most builds in WvW that are part of the, "Blob", mentality and do things like roam/small group/havoc, don't have umpteen cleanses/clears and mass sources of resistance to even counter act the mass amount of condition spam going around, and it all comes down to being able to burst them down, which again, is hard, when you have people running around with 3,100 Armor+ and 23,000 HP+, that only have to rely on one stat to dish out what power builds need three for.

    And people use scourge as an example not to cherry pick, but, because that's what you see the most out in WvW, they have two very very strong conditions burning/torment that will just keep getting re-applied over and over while your defense against it is used up, and on CD.

    Well the same can be said of those who suggest that taking more cleanses does not do any good against a condition build.

    I play a variety of builds but for the purposes of examples will refer to two thief builds I use with regularity.

    One is all power predicated on getting out as much damage as possible in short order. This one traits ONLY shadowstep and trickster traits as cleanses. This one CAN beat condition builds if played perfectly and if I time my dodges and cleanses properly but without a doubt has little room for mitsakes when facing a condition build.

    A second thief is loaded with Cleanses including , PR , the EA trait out of DRD and trickster traits. This one fares FAR better against any condition build and any failing I do have against said builds have little to do with the build and inability to cleanse. I see a significant difference in the latters ability to survive against ANY condition build which suggests to me cleanses do make a difference and a significant one.

    If you wish to refer to the BLOB and the zerg all semblance of balance goes out the window including those that are power builds and this has little to do with Conditions or power builds being OP across the board.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    vitality is the stat against condi dmg. you dont need to waste points in toughness, so its easier to defend against condis than against power, where you need toughness AND vitality

    Well, technically, Toughness does help against condition attacks, because most of them apply direct damage as well as the conditions, so while VERY minor it will have a slight, if ineffectual affect. The same goes for Vitality. Health is rather point against Condition builds due to the sheer damage they do.

    @Zero.3871 said:
    most people just cannot handle conditions because they spam brainless their condi removals. if you play with brain you can handle condis on every class. use dodges, invuls to evade the burst skills (condition apllying skills can be dodged like power based skills, idk why you told omething else) of the enemy. if you get hitted you can cleans it. dont clean 1 stack of bleeding. you can collect them until a critical point and then clean it. on that way every class can ez handle that. simply l2p issue.

    This is also wrong. This also makes me think you are a condi player that wants to pretend that condition based builds actually require skill (they dont) until application is balanced against removal. May dont 50/50 but not the 90/10 it currently is in favor of conditions, they will never be considered skill based.

    You could wait until you have loads of conditions you before you remove them, the problem is. Seconds later you have another 5 conditions on you with various amounts of stacks. While application SO vastly out does removals never going to be fun playing against bunker condition builds.

    Condition damage AND application needs to be toned down, dont worry though. It wont be but its what SHOULD be happening. There are SO many builds where you spam a few buttons to riddle people with conditions then just jump around while the conditions do all the work. Those conditions get removed? Well, hes another 5 conditions for you to remove and then some more and more and more.

    The same goes for the broken direct damage builds that can down someone from 100% health to 0% in a second or 2. These arent skill based build. They are builds that are HEAVILY reliant on the DREADFUL balance for them to be effective. The problem is, these builds CANT be fixed. The player base for a VERY large part is now too reliant on easy builds now that its too the point that ANY attempt at bringing in ACTUAL balance would be met with hatred and anger for making their faceroll easy builds tougher to faceroll with.

    But the exact same thing can be said with physical damage.

    "you could wait until you've sustained lots of physical damage on you before you heal it, the problem is, seconds later, you've received another 5 direct hits against you with varying amounts of damage. While application of physical damage SO vastly outdoes any healing is never going to be fun playing against bunker builds dealing physical damage" Lets not even talk about if you're being focused by zerk spec'd players (which is exactly what I do to condition bunker builds, focus them down under zerk spec).

    By your own accord, physical damage needs something done to it so that "seconds later" we still have the means to out-heal through copious amounts of hits. The difference between the 2 is, there little to nothing you can do to stop the incoming physical damage because there is only so many blocks floating around. There is however 100% condition immunity up-time available which is fairly easy to maintain even through the boon corrupts.

    It gets to the point now that if you're playing scourge, that if the terrain is giving you the gears giving you "obstructed" all the time, your met with "immune" "immune" "immune" "immune" when you try dropping anything in a fight.

    Should condition classes be given to 100% physical immunity to even things out?

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭

    Even Vitality is nothing against someone who lands 20 stacks of burning on you in less than 2s. You go down in the same amount of time regardless of your health pool. I had 24k health on Druid, got 18 stacks on me, insta-down.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    Possibly make condi damage also scale off ferocity slightly.

    Ferocity should have nothing to do with conditions at all.

    It should, as it should precision.

    How does power work

    Power with no precision or ferocity

    Flat dmg, no random burst.

    Power + precision but not ferocity

    Flat dmg with some +150% dmg on crits. Affected by Weakness.

    Power + precision + ferocity

    Flat dmg with some +200/220% dmg on crits.

    Power DMG is affected by

    • Weakness
    • Protection
    • Toughness

    How does condition work

    Condition damage and nothing else

    Full damage

    Condition damage + eventually extra conditions on crits.

    Even more than full damage

    Condition DMG is affected by

    • Resistance
    • Condi Cleanse

    So, a condi user can definitely go tanky and deal full dps ( or more dps than a physical dps build ).

    The way to solve this problem is to mantain the actual condition DPS ( maybe physical dps should scale as the condi one's lvl ), but split this into more stats.
    Shortly, you will achieve the same dps but with a CONDI ( primary ) FEROCITY/PRECISION (secondary) set.

    This will

    • Allows you to have the same defense as a zerk user
    • You will benefit from precision ( conditions will deal low base damage but higher on crit ) and ferocity ( the higher ferocity, the higher the crit tick ).
    • You will suffer from Weakness ( less crit will mean less condi dmg )
    • You will have powerful ticks since the absence of expertise ( or condi duration ).

    Also, but most important, they should lower base POWER stat to 1 ( in order to let aegis and other shields proc ) , PRECISION and FEROCITY to ZERO, and incrase sets by equal amount in order to reach the current damage. This will prevent hybrid builds ( removing 1000 power from condi users, unless they go carrion or viper ie . Critical hit alone won't give you 50% extra damage because of the missing ferocity, and ferocity alone won't work ).

  • Odokuro.5049Odokuro.5049 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odokuro.5049 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odokuro.5049 said:
    Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.

    It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".

    All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.

    Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

    Unlimited condition removal is NOT needed nor is it good for the game. Unlimited blocks and Invulns do not exist to deal with power , nor should it. Could you point to these posts where people claimed or suggested that condition removal was "unlimited" ?

    It's not that they have said those words, directly. It's the constant, "Use condition cleanses/clears", or "There's this thing called, RESISTANCE", which give you the impression that people think that you can somehow dish out unlimited uses of these cleans/clears/resistances, when they're just bombing/spamming the kitten out of you and there's nothing you can do about it.

    Most builds in WvW that are part of the, "Blob", mentality and do things like roam/small group/havoc, don't have umpteen cleanses/clears and mass sources of resistance to even counter act the mass amount of condition spam going around, and it all comes down to being able to burst them down, which again, is hard, when you have people running around with 3,100 Armor+ and 23,000 HP+, that only have to rely on one stat to dish out what power builds need three for.

    And people use scourge as an example not to cherry pick, but, because that's what you see the most out in WvW, they have two very very strong conditions burning/torment that will just keep getting re-applied over and over while your defense against it is used up, and on CD.

    Well the same can be said of those who suggest that taking more cleanses does not do any good against a condition build.

    I play a variety of builds but for the purposes of examples will refer to two thief builds I use with regularity.

    One is all power predicated on getting out as much damage as possible in short order. This one traits ONLY shadowstep and trickster traits as cleanses. This one CAN beat condition builds if played perfectly and if I time my dodges and cleanses properly but without a doubt has little room for mitsakes when facing a condition build.

    A second thief is loaded with Cleanses including , PR , the EA trait out of DRD and trickster traits. This one fares FAR better against any condition build and any failing I do have against said builds have little to do with the build and inability to cleanse. I see a significant difference in the latters ability to survive against ANY condition build which suggests to me cleanses do make a difference and a significant one.

    If you wish to refer to the BLOB and the zerg all semblance of balance goes out the window including those that are power builds and this has little to do with Conditions or power builds being OP across the board.

    And while you need to play your power build flawlessly/perfectly in order to beat a condition build, that same condition build, can fail/screw up rotations ect. and still down you, because as you said, if you CAN beat them, it's only due to you perfectly executing your attacks/skills. Them on the other hand, lol, have you seen these condition builds people run, the majority of them use Dire/TB the ones that use Vipers are the ones where their base armor/health allows them to build glassy while maintaining sustain/survivability.

    While to perform as a power build, we need three stats.

    The Self-Appointed Pervy Sage of Dragonbrand.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    It should, as it should precision.

    So the way to balance conditions is to make it require 4 stats? As well as have a higher list of possible counters? Its a completely ridiculous notion. Where in your idea is the reduction in cleanse skills or the removal of the resistance boon? Condi should never be 'power damage over time' like you are suggesting. Its has to mechanically function and feel different. Which it currently does.

    Condition damage should only ever focus on its own 3 key stats which is Condition damage (main damage stat), precision and expertise(force multipliers). Nothing more. A skill does to much damage? Change the stacks, duration etc. 'Condi builds only need 1 stat'? Augment skills to benefit less innately but better through on crit procs for extra damage to make precision more valuable, lower durations to make expertise a proper investment. Change skill cool-downs so burst is less repeatable etc etc.

    One of the most accurate posts I have seen on the forum so far this year is

    And that's aside from the fact that 90% of complaints about conditions are actually complaining about necromancers specifically, and generalizing onto all condition builds in the game.

    In general if a power spec build does insane damage it usually gets called for that particular spec or skill to be changed. If a condi build or skill does insane damage all conditions are to blame.

    There are a lot of people who make suggestions on how to 'balance' conditions but in actual fact the idea or consequence behind their suggested change is to make conditions non-viable. Either that or the idea, be it good or bad, is just not feasible to implement into the game.

    Do certain condition builds and setups need looking at? Yes.
    Conditions as a whole? Not really.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    @Odokuro.5049 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odokuro.5049 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odokuro.5049 said:
    Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.

    It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".

    All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.

    Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

    Unlimited condition removal is NOT needed nor is it good for the game. Unlimited blocks and Invulns do not exist to deal with power , nor should it. Could you point to these posts where people claimed or suggested that condition removal was "unlimited" ?

    It's not that they have said those words, directly. It's the constant, "Use condition cleanses/clears", or "There's this thing called, RESISTANCE", which give you the impression that people think that you can somehow dish out unlimited uses of these cleans/clears/resistances, when they're just bombing/spamming the kitten out of you and there's nothing you can do about it.

    Most builds in WvW that are part of the, "Blob", mentality and do things like roam/small group/havoc, don't have umpteen cleanses/clears and mass sources of resistance to even counter act the mass amount of condition spam going around, and it all comes down to being able to burst them down, which again, is hard, when you have people running around with 3,100 Armor+ and 23,000 HP+, that only have to rely on one stat to dish out what power builds need three for.

    And people use scourge as an example not to cherry pick, but, because that's what you see the most out in WvW, they have two very very strong conditions burning/torment that will just keep getting re-applied over and over while your defense against it is used up, and on CD.

    Well the same can be said of those who suggest that taking more cleanses does not do any good against a condition build.

    I play a variety of builds but for the purposes of examples will refer to two thief builds I use with regularity.

    One is all power predicated on getting out as much damage as possible in short order. This one traits ONLY shadowstep and trickster traits as cleanses. This one CAN beat condition builds if played perfectly and if I time my dodges and cleanses properly but without a doubt has little room for mitsakes when facing a condition build.

    A second thief is loaded with Cleanses including , PR , the EA trait out of DRD and trickster traits. This one fares FAR better against any condition build and any failing I do have against said builds have little to do with the build and inability to cleanse. I see a significant difference in the latters ability to survive against ANY condition build which suggests to me cleanses do make a difference and a significant one.

    If you wish to refer to the BLOB and the zerg all semblance of balance goes out the window including those that are power builds and this has little to do with Conditions or power builds being OP across the board.

    And while you need to play your power build flawlessly/perfectly in order to beat a condition build, that same condition build, can fail/screw up rotations ect. and still down you, because as you said, if you CAN beat them, it's only due to you perfectly executing your attacks/skills. Them on the other hand, lol, have you seen these condition builds people run, the majority of them use Dire/TB the ones that use Vipers are the ones where their base armor/health allows them to build glassy while maintaining sustain/survivability.

    While to perform as a power build, we need three stats.

    The three stats needed for Conditions is immaterial and the case against it overstated. I can still do more damage on any given power attack INSTANTLY.

    The proper way to look at it is "Power builds have MORE ways of increasing damage then condition builds because they have two added stats that are useful to their damage output where Condition builds have only one". You do NOT NEED Three stats in a power build. You take them because you can do more damage. Condition builds reach their damage peak much earlier and have less flexibility in adding to the some without investing in traits. Power builds have MOR ways to increase overall damage and this is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

    My POWER thief has just as much Vitality and only a little less toughness then did my condition thief and can still generate generous damage against DIRE users given how the Damage stat multipliers out of traits work , and the way he can generate 100 percent crit rates through gear and traits.

    As to the "playing perfectly" you totally missed the point. You have to play perfectly if you take no cleanses against a condition build. If you take cleanses and use them properly you DO have room for error. My thief that is designed to deal with conditions can make a lot more errors then the one that does not.

    To the majoirty using dire and tb. This is just a,meme repeated by people over and over without considering the reality. A POWER user Warrior generally has more armor and vitality then a Condition using thief as example just with base gear. A power uysing spec can defeat that warrior. Power users generate plenty of damage and can take out people in Dire . Added to that Dire/Tb builds fare no better against Condition users then a person with no low toughness/armor and are more susceptiple to hybrids.

    Griever hybrid>dire Condition when comparing like for like. Any advantages a given condition user might have are related to class differences and not the armor they are wearing in this regard. As a further example if you are a d/d using condition thief, You will do much better in some combination of shamans , settlers or apothecary as you can leverage various TRAITS to take advantage of the types of heals avilable to the same. Many Necroes prefer sinister or some other precision add gear to leverage on crit adds of conditions. I have a few condition builds and across th e board none use Dire and only one uses TB. The one that uses TB is not taking it for the added toughness and Vitality as much as the duration add and this duration more for the Immobs and CC type conditions then the damaging.

    The Issue with Conditions boils down to a few outlier builds and traits. It is not a problem with Armor worn, with "needing three stats" or with Conditions in general.

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    I'm all for making conditions not even a viable sole source of damage.

    Or maybe every time you cleanse a condition, that condition cannot be reapplied to you for 3s (like stealth and revealed). The value of a single condition cleanse is too low with all the easy reapplication.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Cleanses don't really help when a scourge uses an instant skill to corrupt everything around it and also drop 8 separate condi. It would be one thing if it was JUST torment or JUST bleed or burn or whatever, but it's not.

    I agree that Condi complaints mostly come down to the playstyles of builds that use condi. However, that doesn't mean stats aren't a problem. If you want to do full damage, you should have to invest the same amount in damaging stats. If you don't, you're getting defensive stats 'for free' compared to a power build.

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