Conditions will ALWAYS be too strong

matthirten.6475 · December 5, 2017

It's not conditions, it's the classes. I play either support firebrand (where you can pump out condi clear and conversion) support herald (where you get hella resistance from taking condis from your allies) or Condi renegade with legendary renegade stance (which is in no way overpowered at all and probably needs a buff)

Blanket nerfing conditions is not the way to go. There is a lot of classes or specs that are just not amazing even with conditions. Nerfing the amount of conditions applied by certain classes is probably better, or by helping to reduce some of the boon rip. Guards, Revs, and Warriors who are usually leading the charge all have some way of getting resistance, the issue is that it's taken off immediately.

Once again, PLEASE do not nerf conditions as a whole. I find condi legendary renegade staff super enjoyable even though it's not that great. It's already nowhere near meta and I get squashed by meta builds and if it gets nerfed even more it'll be entirely unusable.

ReaverKane.7598 · December 5, 2017

@Inoki.6048 said:
@gmmg.9210 said:
Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

THIS. Exactly this 'effin thing is annoying the devil out of me. Seriously, this is wrong on so many levels. There's virtually no defence against this type of cancerous damage application.

To clarify, I ran a boon druid loaded with utilities to clear condis and celestial avatar as well. Normally I have no issues defeating even the tankiest classes, but it's insane to even think of fighting something that endlessly passively applies condis and given how limiting the game is by design (limited in mobility due to endurance, limited due to cooldowns and in condi clearance) it's just impossible to fight the cheesiest of builds (which most run of course) like warriors that continuously apply burning around them (18 stacks of the most powerful condi is a everyday thing without the slightest effort) and everyone knows it's very hard to escape a warrior due to their excellent mobility (since they have been granted everything like god's favoured son) they just passively keep applying condis and once you run out of cleanse (which you eventually do) and mobility there is absolutely nothing to defend yourself with against them.

Same with Scourges. These two classes are atm. entirely ruining the game. I was trying to evade a Scourge that due to very high range on their weapon constantly managed to keep up, chill me and apply a number of conditions that despite my enormous amount of condi cleanse I was just unable to get rid of because they apply condis with every breath.

This game is beyond frustrating to play and it's the psychological factor they engineered it with so that you scratch your head and push yourself to try again - human nature, until you eventually realise it's utter nonsense and uninstall at some point.

Well, son... Here's your problem... You don't adapt. Rangers have WAY more range than Scourges. As someone that has been mostly playing as scourge in PvP, i can tell you, there aren't many things that can mess me up more than a longbow ranger. Also, having played condi soulbeast for a while i had no issue burning through most scourges and spellbreakers.

And yes, there's an issue with condition damage, especially in PvP.In PvE condi damage becomes prevalent in most bosses that don't have invulnerability phases, simply because condi damage grows geometrically, and it's ceiling is pretty high (the more condis you stack the more damage you do, so your damage is limited only by the duration of the stacks). While power damage has a very finite ceiling (that being of 100% crit with maxed power and ferocity), it doesn't grow over time like condition damage, but also it DOESN'T HAVE to grow over time.

So in short fights, or bosses that phase quickly, power damage is superior, because of it's instant bursting potential. And for the most part those distinctions work well. Power delivers instant bursts of damage (which is mitigated with toughness), while condis grow over time (without mitigation).In PvE the balance is achieved somewhat easily simply by making sure that there's a balance between the time it takes for condis to scale into "cruise speed" and the damage output of power builds. And in most cases, in bosses that phase quickly you'll see a predominance of power builds vs a predominance of condi builds for the more drawn out fights.So, PvE is working fairly well, with balance being an issue of simply managing the speed of condi stacking.

in PvP is a different matter altogether.For starters because of the comparatively low HP pools (as compared to mobs and bosses) the speed with which condition damage and power damage applies is pretty much the same. So classes that can stack multiple conditions faster (like scourge) end up overwhelming everything in the playing field.At the same time, again, because of the comparatively low HP pools, you can't really expect condi users to ramp up their damage slowly, because they'd die before that damage takes effect.

So what could help this?Well, larger HP pools would give each side of the coin more time to work. But that would mean that fights also last a bit longer, potentially requiring the duration of matches to increase.Limiting the number of conditions per stack could allow some counter-play for condition damage.Adding a pvp-exclusive mechanic that reduces cooldowns on cleanses for each stack of conditions or different conditions applied on you might help.Adding a action skill for condi cleanse after you reach a certain threshold?

TLDR:The real issue isn't condition damage vs power damage. Its that Arena Net focused solely on providing power creep, without providing the defensive component to answer that power creep. So we have higher offensive capabilities with very limited defensive ones.

babazhook.6805 · December 5, 2017

@Odokuro.5049 said:Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.
It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".
All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.
Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

Unlimited condition removal is NOT needed nor is it good for the game. Unlimited blocks and Invulns do not exist to deal with power , nor should it. Could you point to these posts where people claimed or suggested that condition removal was "unlimited" ?

matthirten.6475 · December 5, 2017

@Odokuro.5049 said:Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.
It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".
All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.
Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

If you're gonna sit here and tell me condi renegade is OP and doesn't require hands on attention, we need to talk.

Problem is certain classes, not conditions in general. In PvP/WvW condi elementalist isn't overly OP, neither is Condi renegade.

God.2708 · December 5, 2017

The issue with conditions has always been the fact that condition mitigation in the form of cleanses loses its effects drastically when scaled up against multiple players. Power damage mitigation applies equally to everyone attacking you. If two condition players are dropping condis on you, classes are only built to handle removing the conditions from one other player (because more than that would obviously be overpowered and make PvP condition builds useless). This of course has the downside of making the game really feel lame to play. Where you could 1vX lesser skilled players in power builds thanks to mitigation and smart positioning, against conditions its drastically harder with far less skill on the enemies part because they debilitate you simply by existing and you can't counter multiple of them (except through resistance spam, guess who was the number one roamer for a while because of their ability to 1vX? Oh, the class with the best resistance uptime).

GDchiaScrub.3241 · December 5, 2017

Even before ANET decided to turn every condi into another type of bleed...condi was flawed from inception by even having a stat for it. This gave the expectation that it should/would scale.

GW1 capped Degen for reason. Not only did it ignore armor, but this conditioned (hah pun) players to spread out the poison/hexes to put pressure on the whole party. This also meant encounters weren't just a few damage sponges (that GW2 pve ultimately boils down to). It was probably more of an issue wanting to change GW1's balance for the sake of variety in GW2 without assessing why GW1 did it that way...

I somewhat recall degen uncapped at an early point in GW1 which was overpowered in terms of spike damage, so they made the change to cap it...memory could be bad but eh!

JayAction.9056 · December 5, 2017

Pre-HOT coordinated groups had multiple individuals who brought group condi cleanse. (The only reason to be in a group along with boon/heal priority)

Condis are stronger now and you see a lot less groups with condi cleanse.

You guys need to # learn to play

Lowen.7109 · December 5, 2017

My magic 8-ball says that a year from now, scourges and firebrands will get condi-clear on their auto-attack, with no significant other changes.

Odokuro.5049 · December 5, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:
@Odokuro.5049 said:Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.
It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".
All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.
Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

Unlimited condition removal is NOT needed nor is it good for the game. Unlimited blocks and Invulns do not exist to deal with power , nor should it. Could you point to these posts where people claimed or suggested that condition removal was "unlimited" ?

It's not that they have said those words, directly. It's the constant, "Use condition cleanses/clears", or "There's this thing called, RESISTANCE", which give you the impression that people think that you can somehow dish out unlimited uses of these cleans/clears/resistances, when they're just bombing/spamming the crap out of you and there's nothing you can do about it.

Most builds in WvW that are part of the, "Blob", mentality and do things like roam/small group/havoc, don't have umpteen cleanses/clears and mass sources of resistance to even counter act the mass amount of condition spam going around, and it all comes down to being able to burst them down, which again, is hard, when you have people running around with 3,100 Armor+ and 23,000 HP+, that only have to rely on one stat to dish out what power builds need three for.

And people use scourge as an example not to cherry pick, but, because that's what you see the most out in WvW, they have two very very strong conditions burning/torment that will just keep getting re-applied over and over while your defense against it is used up, and on CD.

Zero.3871 · December 5, 2017

@gmmg.9210 said:Anet said it themselves, they want condi's to be as viable as DPS. This statement alone forced me to conclude that this is a casual game and here's why:
Dots in MMO's have traditionally been a source of secondary damage, allowing for damage over time while primary damage remains as a bedrock. So why has it been like this in the past? Because unlike DPS, dots tend to have little to no counters or telegraphs, and essentially boils down to number damage. Removing or stalling them is the only counter. Other stats wouldn't help unlike their DPS counter-parts, and the animations wouldn't help convey that they would be hit by damage that does it's effects over time. And even with all of this said, dots have taken flak in the past.Now let's go to this game: Condi's are as viable as DPS. That means that if you spec into a DPS build you have to go against someone's toughness and vitality to kill them. Because it's direct damage it can be evaded due to dodges in the game, blocked, negated due to boons or passives, etc.Now with condi's, it helps to have more vitality (as it does against DPS because it's your life-bar essentially), but toughness doesn't do a thing. There's no counter stat against condition damage/duration.
Power->Toughness, Condition damage/ Condition duration->Nothing.
Why haven't we seen a stat that increases boon effectiveness? Like a stat that makes a single stack of might give out more power, or a single stack of regen give out more health? Because then the game would be too boon-heavy and everyone would be too reliant on boons, especially with the added boon duration. But wait, conditions already have this in the form of dots with two stats attached to them and there's no counter stat (unlike the power counterpart). So... it's stronger by definition. Now this would be fine if conditions weren't as easy to dish out but of course Anet lets you throw them out like candy on Halloween.

vitality is the stat against condi dmg. you dont need to waste points in toughness, so its easier to defend against condis than against power, where you need toughness AND vitality

Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.
I don't expect either of these points will ever be addressed because Anet fundamentally disagrees with how dots and banes should work in their game. But if these simple two things were brought up and fixed, this game would live up to the combat system it already has.
What's so tragic about conditions and essentially number damage in this game is that combat at first glance is so physically motivated. It has a two weapon system, dodges, and telegraphed abilities that made it stand apart as not just another floaty feeling MMO. It feels designed for pvp.But conditions, their power, and the unwillingness of Anet to address them, is wearing this game down to the point of hopelessness. It feels like this combat system was designed, nearly perfected, and then left to be slowly scrambled by the decadence of time.
Please Anet, I know it's a hard task to balance, but please address conditions.

most people just cannot handle conditions because they spam brainless their condi removals. if you play with brain you can handle condis on every class. use dodges, invuls to evade the burst skills (condition apllying skills can be dodged like power based skills, idk why you told omething else) of the enemy. if you get hitted you can cleans it. dont clean 1 stack of bleeding. you can collect them until a critical point and then clean it. on that way every class can ez handle that. simply l2p issue.

Odokuro.5049 · December 5, 2017

@Zero.3871 said:
@gmmg.9210 said:Anet said it themselves, they want condi's to be as viable as DPS. This statement alone forced me to conclude that this is a casual game and here's why:
Dots in MMO's have traditionally been a source of secondary damage, allowing for damage over time while primary damage remains as a bedrock. So why has it been like this in the past? Because unlike DPS, dots tend to have little to no counters or telegraphs, and essentially boils down to number damage. Removing or stalling them is the only counter. Other stats wouldn't help unlike their DPS counter-parts, and the animations wouldn't help convey that they would be hit by damage that does it's effects over time. And even with all of this said, dots have taken flak in the past.Now let's go to this game: Condi's are as viable as DPS. That means that if you spec into a DPS build you have to go against someone's toughness and vitality to kill them. Because it's direct damage it can be evaded due to dodges in the game, blocked, negated due to boons or passives, etc.Now with condi's, it helps to have more vitality (as it does against DPS because it's your life-bar essentially), but toughness doesn't do a thing. There's no counter stat against condition damage/duration.
Power->Toughness, Condition damage/ Condition duration->Nothing.
Why haven't we seen a stat that increases boon effectiveness? Like a stat that makes a single stack of might give out more power, or a single stack of regen give out more health? Because then the game would be too boon-heavy and everyone would be too reliant on boons, especially with the added boon duration. But wait, conditions already have this in the form of dots with two stats attached to them and there's no counter stat (unlike the power counterpart). So... it's stronger by definition. Now this would be fine if conditions weren't as easy to dish out but of course Anet lets you throw them out like candy on Halloween.

vitality is the stat against condi dmg. you dont need to waste points in toughness, so its easier to defend against condis than against power, where you need toughness AND vitality

Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.
I don't expect either of these points will ever be addressed because Anet fundamentally disagrees with how dots and banes should work in their game. But if these simple two things were brought up and fixed, this game would live up to the combat system it already has.
What's so tragic about conditions and essentially number damage in this game is that combat at first glance is so physically motivated. It has a two weapon system, dodges, and telegraphed abilities that made it stand apart as not just another floaty feeling MMO. It feels designed for pvp.But conditions, their power, and the unwillingness of Anet to address them, is wearing this game down to the point of hopelessness. It feels like this combat system was designed, nearly perfected, and then left to be slowly scrambled by the decadence of time.
Please Anet, I know it's a hard task to balance, but please address conditions.

most people just cannot handle conditions because they spam brainless their condi removals. if you play with brain you can handle condis on every class. use dodges, invuls to evade the burst skills (condition apllying skills can be dodged like power based skills, idk why you told omething else) of the enemy. if you get hitted you can cleans it. dont clean 1 stack of bleeding. you can collect them until a critical point and then clean it. on that way every class can ez handle that. simply l2p issue.

Vitality does not counter incoming Condition damage, like Toughness counters incoming Power damage. And what if we do play smart and cleanse/clear at that critical point and them BAM, hit with the same condition spam again, what's that? Ohh, I can dodge twice, cool, I'll avoid two attacks and then stand up to get crapped on by more condition spam. Ohh wait, I can use Resistance, alright, popped that, it's over, BAM more conditions....

I don't expect to be able to become invuln to conditions 100% of the time, but it starts to feel pointless to avoid/cleans/clear/resist conditions when as soon as you remove/resist those conditions, they're right back on you, melting you, and all you can do is pray that you can kill them before they kill you or else it's game over.

grifflyman.8102 · December 5, 2017

Would a map wide buff that decreases damage received by 5% do anything to help?

ArmageddonAsh.6430 · December 5, 2017

@Zero.3871 said:vitality is the stat against condi dmg. you dont need to waste points in toughness, so its easier to defend against condis than against power, where you need toughness AND vitality

Well, technically, Toughness does help against condition attacks, because most of them apply direct damage as well as the conditions, so while VERY minor it will have a slight, if ineffectual affect. The same goes for Vitality. Health is rather point against Condition builds due to the sheer damage they do.

@Zero.3871 said:most people just cannot handle conditions because they spam brainless their condi removals. if you play with brain you can handle condis on every class. use dodges, invuls to evade the burst skills (condition apllying skills can be dodged like power based skills, idk why you told omething else) of the enemy. if you get hitted you can cleans it. dont clean 1 stack of bleeding. you can collect them until a critical point and then clean it. on that way every class can ez handle that. simply l2p issue.

This is also wrong. This also makes me think you are a condi player that wants to pretend that condition based builds actually require skill (they dont) until application is balanced against removal. May dont 50/50 but not the 90/10 it currently is in favor of conditions, they will never be considered skill based.

You could wait until you have loads of conditions you before you remove them, the problem is. Seconds later you have another 5 conditions on you with various amounts of stacks. While application SO vastly out does removals never going to be fun playing against bunker condition builds.

Condition damage AND application needs to be toned down, dont worry though. It wont be but its what SHOULD be happening. There are SO many builds where you spam a few buttons to riddle people with conditions then just jump around while the conditions do all the work. Those conditions get removed? Well, hes another 5 conditions for you to remove and then some more and more and more.

The same goes for the broken direct damage builds that can down someone from 100% health to 0% in a second or 2. These arent skill based build. They are builds that are HEAVILY reliant on the DREADFUL balance for them to be effective. The problem is, these builds CANT be fixed. The player base for a VERY large part is now too reliant on easy builds now that its too the point that ANY attempt at bringing in ACTUAL balance would be met with hatred and anger for making their faceroll easy builds tougher to faceroll with.

coro.3176 · December 6, 2017

Problem:. condi tends to be unavoidable, "cheesy" damage: Scourge instant massive corrupting aoe around the player, Thief evade spam, Mesmer clones applying condi passively, etc.
Solution: take condi application away from "cheesy" skills and move it to skills that have more counterplay.
Problem: condi only requires 1 stat to be effective. power requires 3
Solution: make condi require precision. i.e. take some of the condi stacks and make them conditional on crits. Possibly make condi damage also scale off ferocity slightly. Obviously, this would require some rebalancing to keep overall dps the same.
Problem: condi application (both # of condi, and # of stacks) and cleanse (across classes, across builds) are not balanced.
Solution: huge game-wide condi rebalance. eg. massive reduction in cleanse across classes, rebalance duration to make condi more DoT than burst. Possibly split damaging condi and damaging cleanse from other condi.

Jaruselka.5943 · December 6, 2017

I've been wondering if the concept of AOE "saturation" would work. Basically an area can only have a certain number of conditions (a "saturation point") and ADDING more conditions to that area begins to REDUCE its effectiveness. This means that condi players have to actually think about how and when to apply AOE conditions instead of mindlessly pressing buttons. There could be some kind of indicator showing areas where the conditions are less effective...

Sigmoid.7082 · December 6, 2017

Possibly make condi damage also scale off ferocity slightly.Ferocity should have nothing to do with conditions at all.

coro.3176 · December 6, 2017

@Sigmoid.7082 said:
Possibly make condi damage also scale off ferocity slightly.Ferocity should have nothing to do with conditions at all.

Yeah, just trying to find another stat to make full-dps condi be more glass and less tanky. If you're going to condi-burst like a glass cannon, you ought be fragile like a glass cannon too. That means spending stats on damage rather than getting it all 'for free' from one.

It should probably be condi duration, so a condi build would be Condi Damage (primary), Condi Duration (secondary) and Precision (secondary).

babazhook.6805 · December 6, 2017

@Odokuro.5049 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:
@Odokuro.5049 said:Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.
It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".
All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.
Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

Unlimited condition removal is NOT needed nor is it good for the game. Unlimited blocks and Invulns do not exist to deal with power , nor should it. Could you point to these posts where people claimed or suggested that condition removal was "unlimited" ?

It's not that they have said those words, directly. It's the constant, "Use condition cleanses/clears", or "There's this thing called, RESISTANCE", which give you the impression that people think that you can somehow dish out unlimited uses of these cleans/clears/resistances, when they're just bombing/spamming the crap out of you and there's nothing you can do about it.

Most builds in WvW that are part of the, "Blob", mentality and do things like roam/small group/havoc, don't have umpteen cleanses/clears and mass sources of resistance to even counter act the mass amount of condition spam going around, and it all comes down to being able to burst them down, which again, is hard, when you have people running around with 3,100 Armor+ and 23,000 HP+, that only have to rely on one stat to dish out what power builds need three for.

And people use scourge as an example not to cherry pick, but, because that's what you see the most out in WvW, they have two very very strong conditions burning/torment that will just keep getting re-applied over and over while your defense against it is used up, and on CD.

Well the same can be said of those who suggest that taking more cleanses does not do any good against a condition build.

I play a variety of builds but for the purposes of examples will refer to two thief builds I use with regularity.

One is all power predicated on getting out as much damage as possible in short order. This one traits ONLY shadowstep and trickster traits as cleanses. This one CAN beat condition builds if played perfectly and if I time my dodges and cleanses properly but without a doubt has little room for mitsakes when facing a condition build.

A second thief is loaded with Cleanses including , PR , the EA trait out of DRD and trickster traits. This one fares FAR better against any condition build and any failing I do have against said builds have little to do with the build and inability to cleanse. I see a significant difference in the latters ability to survive against ANY condition build which suggests to me cleanses do make a difference and a significant one.

If you wish to refer to the BLOB and the zerg all semblance of balance goes out the window including those that are power builds and this has little to do with Conditions or power builds being OP across the board.

DeadlySynz.3471 · December 6, 2017

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
@Zero.3871 said:vitality is the stat against condi dmg. you dont need to waste points in toughness, so its easier to defend against condis than against power, where you need toughness AND vitality

Well, technically, Toughness does help against condition attacks, because most of them apply direct damage as well as the conditions, so while VERY minor it will have a slight, if ineffectual affect. The same goes for Vitality. Health is rather point against Condition builds due to the sheer damage they do.

@Zero.3871 said:most people just cannot handle conditions because they spam brainless their condi removals. if you play with brain you can handle condis on every class. use dodges, invuls to evade the burst skills (condition apllying skills can be dodged like power based skills, idk why you told omething else) of the enemy. if you get hitted you can cleans it. dont clean 1 stack of bleeding. you can collect them until a critical point and then clean it. on that way every class can ez handle that. simply l2p issue.

This is also wrong. This also makes me think you are a condi player that wants to pretend that condition based builds actually require skill (they dont) until application is balanced against removal. May dont 50/50 but not the 90/10 it currently is in favor of conditions, they will never be considered skill based.

You could wait until you have loads of conditions you before you remove them, the problem is. Seconds later you have another 5 conditions on you with various amounts of stacks. While application SO vastly out does removals never going to be fun playing against bunker condition builds.

Condition damage AND application needs to be toned down, dont worry though. It wont be but its what SHOULD be happening. There are SO many builds where you spam a few buttons to riddle people with conditions then just jump around while the conditions do all the work. Those conditions get removed? Well, hes another 5 conditions for you to remove and then some more and more and more.

The same goes for the broken direct damage builds that can down someone from 100% health to 0% in a second or 2. These arent skill based build. They are builds that are HEAVILY reliant on the DREADFUL balance for them to be effective. The problem is, these builds CANT be fixed. The player base for a VERY large part is now too reliant on easy builds now that its too the point that ANY attempt at bringing in ACTUAL balance would be met with hatred and anger for making their faceroll easy builds tougher to faceroll with.

But the exact same thing can be said with physical damage.

"you could wait until you've sustained lots of physical damage on you before you heal it, the problem is, seconds later, you've received another 5 direct hits against you with varying amounts of damage. While application of physical damage SO vastly outdoes any healing is never going to be fun playing against bunker builds dealing physical damage" Lets not even talk about if you're being focused by zerk spec'd players (which is exactly what I do to condition bunker builds, focus them down under zerk spec).

By your own accord, physical damage needs something done to it so that "seconds later" we still have the means to out-heal through copious amounts of hits. The difference between the 2 is, there little to nothing you can do to stop the incoming physical damage because there is only so many blocks floating around. There is however 100% condition immunity up-time available which is fairly easy to maintain even through the boon corrupts.

It gets to the point now that if you're playing scourge, that if the terrain is giving you the gears giving you "obstructed" all the time, your met with "immune" "immune" "immune" "immune" when you try dropping anything in a fight.

Should condition classes be given to 100% physical immunity to even things out?

snh.7091 · December 6, 2017

Even Vitality is nothing against someone who lands 20 stacks of burning on you in less than 2s. You go down in the same amount of time regardless of your health pool. I had 24k health on Druid, got 18 stacks on me, insta-down.

Shirlias.8104 · December 6, 2017

@Sigmoid.7082 said:
Possibly make condi damage also scale off ferocity slightly.Ferocity should have nothing to do with conditions at all.

It should, as it should precision.

How does power work

Power with no precision or ferocityFlat dmg, no random burst.Power + precision but not ferocityFlat dmg with some +150% dmg on crits. Affected by Weakness.Power + precision + ferocityFlat dmg with some +200/220% dmg on crits.

Power DMG is affected by

Weakness
Protection
Toughness

How does condition work

Condition damage and nothing elseFull damageCondition damage + eventually extra conditions on crits.Even more than full damage

Condition DMG is affected by

Resistance
Condi Cleanse

So, a condi user can definitely go tanky and deal full dps ( or more dps than a physical dps build ).

The way to solve this problem is to mantain the actual condition DPS ( maybe physical dps should scale as the condi one's lvl ), but split this into more stats.Shortly, you will achieve the same dps but with a CONDI ( primary ) FEROCITY/PRECISION (secondary) set.

This will

Allows you to have the same defense as a zerk user
You will benefit from precision ( conditions will deal low base damage but higher on crit ) and ferocity ( the higher ferocity, the higher the crit tick ).
You will suffer from Weakness ( less crit will mean less condi dmg )
You will have powerful ticks since the absence of expertise ( or condi duration ).

Also, but most important, they should lower base POWER stat to 1 ( in order to let aegis and other shields proc ) , PRECISION and FEROCITY to ZERO, and incrase sets by equal amount in order to reach the current damage. This will prevent hybrid builds ( removing 1000 power from condi users, unless they go carrion or viper ie . Critical hit alone won't give you 50% extra damage because of the missing ferocity, and ferocity alone won't work ).

Odokuro.5049 · December 6, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:
@Odokuro.5049 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:
@Odokuro.5049 said:Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.
It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".
All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.
Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.