Conditions will ALWAYS be too strong

Anet said it themselves, they want condi's to be as viable as DPS. This statement alone forced me to conclude that this is a casual game and here's why:

Dots in MMO's have traditionally been a source of secondary damage, allowing for damage over time while primary damage remains as a bedrock. So why has it been like this in the past? Because unlike DPS, dots tend to have little to no counters or telegraphs, and essentially boils down to number damage. Removing or stalling them is the only counter. Other stats wouldn't help unlike their DPS counter-parts, and the animations wouldn't help convey that they would be hit by damage that does it's effects over time. And even with all of this said, dots have taken flak in the past.Now let's go to this game: Condi's are as viable as DPS. That means that if you spec into a DPS build you have to go against someone's toughness and vitality to kill them. Because it's direct damage it can be evaded due to dodges in the game, blocked, negated due to boons or passives, etc.Now with condi's, it helps to have more vitality (as it does against DPS because it's your life-bar essentially), but toughness doesn't do a thing. There's no counter stat against condition damage/duration.

1. Power->Toughness, Condition damage/ Condition duration->Nothing.

Why haven't we seen a stat that increases boon effectiveness? Like a stat that makes a single stack of might give out more power, or a single stack of regen give out more health? Because then the game would be too boon-heavy and everyone would be too reliant on boons, especially with the added boon duration. But wait, conditions already have this in the form of dots with two stats attached to them and there's no counter stat (unlike the power counterpart). So... it's stronger by definition. Now this would be fine if conditions weren't as easy to dish out but of course Anet lets you throw them out like candy on Halloween.

2. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

I don't expect either of these points will ever be addressed because Anet fundamentally disagrees with how dots and banes should work in their game. But if these simple two things were brought up and fixed, this game would live up to the combat system it already has.

What's so tragic about conditions and essentially number damage in this game is that combat at first glance is so physically motivated. It has a two weapon system, dodges, and telegraphed abilities that made it stand apart as not just another floaty feeling MMO. It feels designed for pvp.But conditions, their power, and the unwillingness of Anet to address them, is wearing this game down to the point of hopelessness. It feels like this combat system was designed, nearly perfected, and then left to be slowly scrambled by the decadence of time.

Please Anet, I know it's a hard task to balance, but please address conditions.

it should just be a thing in pve not wvw or pvp. it'll take them years to figure out tho

@hunkamania.7561 said:it should just be a thing in pve not wvw or pvp. it'll take them years to figure out tho

It only take a completely noob MMO development team like Zenimax Online Studios one year to figure this out. As many other MMO companies. I'm pretty sure ANet has been figured this out as well.

They just refuse the implement it. Because then GW2 would actually be less inviting to the super bad or super casual gamers like all of the other MMOs on the market. Remember ANet's initial pledge about GW2? "If you like MMOs than you will like GW2. But if you don't like MMOs than you will really like GW2." ANet just has pretty been fully iterating on that pledge. More so since GW2 got kicked from ESL.

So this is what we get. A game only meant for bad or super casual gamers. Most who don't fall in those brackets will just play other MMORPGs or actually PvP oriented titles.

Conditions aren't an issue right now in wvw. The issue right now is the amount of boonrips/corrupts that scourges and spellbreakers are pooping out.

could at least give extra pvp armor/runes with condi resist...

@GrahamW.5397 said:Conditions aren't an issue right now in wvw. The issue right now is the amount of boonrips/corrupts that scourges and spellbreakers are pooping out.

Boonspam is a thing.

@gmmg.9210 said:

2. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

This is the only real issue to me, Condis are beeing applied so incredibly fast that no amount of resistance (since it's getting corrupted/ripped) and especially no amount of condi clear can get rid of it. Maybe Condi Clears should also give 1/2s grace where you can't get any conditions or 1/2s per Condi cleared. And then we could also get rid of Resistance and start designing more interesting counterplay to Condis!

Oh and either way Enchantment Collapse still needs a nerf.

Funny enough, at launch this was the complete opposite, condition builds wasn't worth looking at.

@Juidodin.5829

Haha, I got it! WvW infusions, ignore the stupid +/-1% guard damage, just give us -1% condi duration on all of them!

@gmmg.9210 said:Anet said it themselves, they want condi's to be as viable as DPS. This statement alone forced me to conclude that this is a casual game and here's why:

Dots in MMO's have traditionally been a source of secondary damage, allowing for damage over time while primary damage remains as a bedrock. So why has it been like this in the past? Because unlike DPS, dots tend to have little to no counters or telegraphs, and essentially boils down to number damage. Removing or stalling them is the only counter. Other stats wouldn't help unlike their DPS counter-parts, and the animations wouldn't help convey that they would be hit by damage that does it's effects over time. And even with all of this said, dots have taken flak in the past.Now let's go to this game: Condi's are as viable as DPS. That means that if you spec into a DPS build you have to go against someone's toughness and vitality to kill them. Because it's direct damage it can be evaded due to dodges in the game, blocked, negated due to boons or passives, etc.Now with condi's, it helps to have more vitality (as it does against DPS because it's your life-bar essentially), but toughness doesn't do a thing. There's no counter stat against condition damage/duration.

1. Power->Toughness, Condition damage/ Condition duration->Nothing.

Why haven't we seen a stat that increases boon effectiveness? Like a stat that makes a single stack of might give out more power, or a single stack of regen give out more health? Because then the game would be too boon-heavy and everyone would be too reliant on boons, especially with the added boon duration. But wait, conditions already have this in the form of dots with two stats attached to them and there's no counter stat (unlike the power counterpart). So... it's stronger by definition. Now this would be fine if conditions weren't as easy to dish out but of course Anet lets you throw them out like candy on Halloween.

2. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

I don't expect either of these points will ever be addressed because Anet fundamentally disagrees with how dots and banes should work in their game. But if these simple two things were brought up and fixed, this game would live up to the combat system it already has.

What's so tragic about conditions and essentially number damage in this game is that combat at first glance is so physically motivated. It has a two weapon system, dodges, and telegraphed abilities that made it stand apart as not just another floaty feeling MMO. It feels designed for pvp.But conditions, their power, and the unwillingness of Anet to address them, is wearing this game down to the point of hopelessness. It feels like this combat system was designed, nearly perfected, and then left to be slowly scrambled by the decadence of time.

Please Anet, I know it's a hard task to balance, but please address conditions.

You said it:

2. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

So a DPS vs a Condi player - lower cooldowns are usually on condi skills and higher ones are on most power skills.

Hmmm...

And I get at the most 4 clears, maybe five on most toons and they can put dozens of them while all my skills are on cooldown.

Balance hasn't happened yet.

What could help is raising the health pool by a LOT for WvW alone - and then let the cooldowns do their thing and the players actually win by skill,not by inequity.

@gmmg.9210 said:

2. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

THIS. Exactly this 'effin thing is annoying the devil out of me. Seriously, this is wrong on so many levels. There's virtually no defence against this type of cancerous damage application.

To clarify, I ran a boon druid loaded with utilities to clear condis and celestial avatar as well. Normally I have no issues defeating even the tankiest classes, but it's insane to even think of fighting something that endlessly passively applies condis and given how limiting the game is by design (limited in mobility due to endurance, limited due to cooldowns and in condi clearance) it's just impossible to fight the cheesiest of builds (which most run of course) like warriors that continuously apply burning around them (18 stacks of the most powerful condi is a everyday thing without the slightest effort) and everyone knows it's very hard to escape a warrior due to their excellent mobility (since they have been granted everything like god's favoured son) they just passively keep applying condis and once you run out of cleanse (which you eventually do) and mobility there is absolutely nothing to defend yourself with against them.

Same with Scourges. These two classes are atm. entirely ruining the game. I was trying to evade a Scourge that due to very high range on their weapon constantly managed to keep up, chill me and apply a number of conditions that despite my enormous amount of condi cleanse I was just unable to get rid of because they apply condis with every breath.

This game is beyond frustrating to play and it's the psychological factor they engineered it with so that you scratch your head and push yourself to try again - human nature, until you eventually realise it's utter nonsense and uninstall at some point.

@Inoki.6048 said:

@gmmg.9210 said:

2. Conditions can be applied more times than they can be cleared.

That is why i have been asking for changes to make skill more similiar to gw1, with hexes and some condis converted into hexes more based on stances and skills that end stances, real shouts, chants, wards, but then i remember this is a game to rewards low skill players with gimmicks...Everythin in gw2 is a bit more of the same...What was possible to reach on spike and gank on gw1 required very good team work, while here only 2 or 3 key mashes and u will down several players due how this game needs to carry and make not so good players "eficient".

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Inoki.6048 said:

@gmmg.9210 said:this is a game to rewards low skill players with gimmicks...

Precisely.

They need to make Vitality the statistical counter to Condition Damage, like Toughness is for Power Damage. This alone will fix a lot of issues, that and changing how often you can apply Conditions, and the way Conditions are cleared at least when it comes to sPvP/WvW.

When it comes to Armor sets, they need to make more glassy sets such as Vipers/Sinister and remove/nerf sets like Dire/Trailblazers because when it comes to stats needed to reach optimum DoT Damage, you require a single stat, opposed to Power Damage builds that need at least two if not three (Power+Precision / Ferocity) to reach optimum DPS, which allows most Condition Builds to utilize stats such as Dire/TB with little to no drawbacks.

So as a list:

1. Vitality needs to counter Condition Damage.
2. How often Conditions are applied needs to be different then it is in PvE.
3. Cleansing Conditions on your self needs to be far more effective, since most Condition Clears seem to be PvE centric, where Mobs are less likely to Condi-bomb/spam you to death.
4. Gear sets such as Dire/Trailblazers need to be changed/nerfed so that Condition builds can not have the best of both worlds. (High Damage / High Sustain and Survivablity.)

Conditions are far from the real issue in WvW. The amount of clear that classes like firebrand bring to the table FAR outstrips the output of the vast majority of groups.The real issue, currently, is the interaction between Winds of Disenchantment and a couple of traits. When a single player can press a single button that completely locks down 40 people and does 8-10k damage to all 40 with virtually no counter: that deserves far, far more focus than conditions which can be easily cleared.

Conditions HAVE to be applied faster then they can be cleared. I am not sure why people continue to suggest this should not be the case. In a 1v1 virtually every matchup can see a person with cleanses versus a person using conditions prevail. It does not follow that in such an instance the person using condition cleanses should never take damage.I should not expect my blocks/invulns and heals to keep up with the power damage another class can inflict so am not clear as to why this should have to be the case with conditions.

Once a person outnumbered by Condition classes he will take more damage and those cleanses will be much less adequate. This is how it should be because if they could handle a 1v2 and 3 cleanse wise, they would never have issues with a 1v1.

Dire/Tb has little to nothing to do with this despite the insistence on the same. Power damage is more then adequate to take down people in dire or TB and in fact many condition builds use armors other than those and are just as effective if not more so. (Put a condition user warrior or Thief in a combo of shamans or apothecary as example and you will see what I mean. Slap on grievers and you will see what I mean). Added to that this is not a world of either/or. A Dire/tb user is just as susceptiple to conditions as is a power user and a hybrid build using a mix of power and conditions will generally win such a matchup.

THE major issue in my opinion is AOE applications of conditions that are at range or mobile with user, that do not need targets and can just saturate areas thus neutralizing melee power , and that can be stacked with a multiple of other AOE's. These too easily distort any semblance of balance as the ability to apply conditions is magnified several times over due to it hitting multiple targets and the skill level drops due to there being no target needed.

There does not need to be major changes made. Tuning is most certainly needed and especially when it comes to the use of AOEtype skills. With power most Applications of AOE damage (such as a trap) are one offs . Those that are not can be tuned if they deemed to powerful via the Damage factor of the given skill. With AOE condition apps in persistent fields two stacks of torment will hit JUST as hard as two stacks of torment on a given weapon skill intended for a single target. The frequency of these need to be looked at along with the amount of stacks and the types of conditions being applied on any given pulse as they are out of whack even in a 1v1.

Boon Corruption is another matter entirely. Boon Spam is just as much an issue . If it were up to me I would never have put Boon corruption onto a weapon's AA as it is on Necro Sceptre. I would have put it on a skill with an ICD or it least one that needs an entirely separate trait to be taken for the same with an ICD.

@babazhook.6805 said:Conditions HAVE to be applied faster then they can be cleared. I am not sure why people continue to suggest this should not be the case. In a 1v1 virtually every matchup can see a person with cleanses versus a person using conditions prevail. It does not follow that in such an instance the person using condition cleanses should never take damage.I should not expect my blocks/invulns and heals to keep up with the power damage another class can inflict so am not clear as to why this should have to be the case with conditions.It's because they don't think conditions have the right to harm them, that's why they hold them to a different standard.

And that's aside from the fact that 90% of complaints about conditions are actually complaining about necromancers specifically, and generalizing onto all condition builds in the game.

This is no different than several melee swinging at a player at once. This is also no different than several ranged players focusing down a player at once. People are dying because they are getting hit by multiple players casting conditions at once. The only difference is, conditions can be rendered 100% useless fairly easily due to resistance.

So now the question is, why is melee allowed to run unopposed and be allowed to multiple melee focus down a player or group at once? Why are several ranged allowed to focus down a player at once? By your own accord, should physical damage then be reduced to allow a single player to out heal several melee attacking them at once?

Physical damage can be applied faster than it can be healed through... Not only that, players can run around with 100% resistance up time.

Perhaps resistance should be changed to nullify a portion of condition damage much like barrier does. Then get rid of that crippling problem that necros have with "obstructed obstructed obstructed obstructed obstructed" because frankly all a player has to do now to avoid being hit by a shade is hide behind a blade of grass.

From the perceive of someone new to wvw, This is worse than the Wvw system in Elder scrolls online, and that's honest to god amazing how they did it. I mean, pvp in Eso can be fun, you don't get instant death by Nightblades, don't get Jesus beamed to death by someone who is attacking on the backline, Or my favorite, gap closing into a loading screen lol. Pvp in eso is the most unbalance, unpolished, and unstable pvp environment I have ever played. But at the very least I can still have fun if no bullshit is involved.In Wvw, the only way I'll have any real fun, is when I join a zerg wipe the enemy team with nonsense like condi. That's it. And I still somehow don't feel good about it, because I know how we went about it is bullshit to. But what can me and a zerg do? We have no option to deal with this condi meta. And god help you if you're ever considering 1vxing. It leaves a poor, Poor impression to any player who joins Wvw the first time. It's shit. It make me feel like a piece of shit whenever I do wvw, and it's something I want to enjoy to.

i think the worse thing is that the Devs of this game doesn't care. It doesn't help that the community manager is Condescending as all hell too. They're banking on Pve and lootboxes. Pvp and wvw are just afterthoughts imo.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:This is no different than several melee swinging at a player at once. This is also no different than several ranged players focusing down a player at once. People are dying because they are getting hit by multiple players casting conditions at once. The only difference is, conditions can be rendered 100% useless fairly easily due to resistance.

So now the question is, why is melee allowed to run unopposed and be allowed to multiple melee focus down a player or group at once? Why are several ranged allowed to focus down a player at once? By your own accord, should physical damage then be reduced to allow a single player to out heal several melee attacking them at once?

Physical damage can be applied faster than it can be healed through... Not only that, players can run around with 100% resistance up time.

Perhaps resistance should be changed to nullify a portion of condition damage much like barrier does. Then get rid of that crippling problem that necros have with "obstructed obstructed obstructed obstructed obstructed" because frankly all a player has to do now to avoid being hit by a shade is hide behind a blade of grass.

AOE conditions are very different then melee or ranged focus. Ranged focus with power requires a target outside a very few small number of attacks and is generally single target. P/P unload, Ranger Rapidfire are single target just as example. Added to that a ranged attack can be reflected or dodged much more easily then a big circle of AOE stacked on top of you. As example if two people focus me with a p/p unload I can dodge and both miss. If two people focus me with one of those persistent AOE fields I dodge out of one field and into the other.

Cleave is very much the same thing. First its range is only 130 but added to that if two people cleaving I can dodge both at once. With a persistent AOE field this can not be done. When I am speaking about the AOE condition applications I am not talking about ones that are fired and then are gone. I am talking about the persistent fields that continously apply conditions to any in that area.

Nor am i saying that those AOE type fields that apply conditions should not exist. I am suggesting they are overtuned. There a great difference in a field that applies one stack of torment every second from a field that lasts 5 seconds as compared to a field that applies 2 stacks of torment per second along with cripple in a field lasting 5 seconds. What I suggest is the durations of these fields and or the amounts of conditions applied per pulse needs to be tuned very much like those DH traps were tuned.

oops can not delete a double post so ediuting

@gmmg.9210 said:Anet said it themselves, they want condi's to be as viable as DPS. This statement alone forced me to conclude that this is a casual game.

You lost me here, so I admit I did not go any further. If desiring something to be "viable" causes you to jump to the conclusion of inevitable and infinite over poweredness of one of two damage types, you are not approaching the notion from a rational perspective in the first place. Thus you clearly do not seek a discussion.

Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.

It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't gimp your build at all.".

All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.

Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

@Odokuro.5049 said:Funny thing about a lot of these, "Pro Condition" people, they think people have unlimited sources of removal and resistance, and that Conditions can be rendered completely useless.

It's like, "Hey guys/gals, I'm sure you don't need anything else on your bars than condition removal abilities and traits, surely that won't kitten your build at all.".

All the while they're laughing their arsses off watching a player trying to clear those 5k to 8k+ burning ect. ticks off of them for the umpteenth time, while the poor power melee build tries to land a hit through the conditioners 3k armor and 23k+ hp.

Just a bunch of OP build users wanting their, "Skillful", builds/gear left a lone so they don't need to be pressured into using something that actually requires hands on attention.

Well said.

@Reaper Alim.4176 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:it should just be a thing in pve not wvw or pvp. it'll take them years to figure out tho

Well said

As i said way too many times, Anet knows the problems but refuse to implement solutions

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Reaper Alim.4176 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:it should just be a thing in pve not wvw or pvp. it'll take them years to figure out tho

Some time ago, a statement from ANet was released and it was something along the lines of, "Player A deals 1k damage upfront while Player B deals 1k damage over X amount of time", and they went on to, people would choose to be player A, all the time. Well here's the thing, player A has to land those hits over and over to deal that damage, while player B, gets to wiff conditions out at high speeds.