Build diversity!!!!! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Build diversity!!!!!

will de grijze jager.6594will de grijze jager.6594 Member ✭✭✭
edited March 4, 2018 in PVP

Dear Anet please bring back the old trait system.
You guys want to bring back build diversity right? Now bringing back the old system will do that. The only thing you need to chance about the old system is, if you chance 1 point in a elite spec you can't choice any other elite spec. This would bring back build diversity. I don't mean the old system were some states were in the trait lines. The reason why the old system is much better for build diversity is, you can chose the first minor trait in a line and don't do anything else with the trait line. It is true that you could only chose 2,5 triat lines, but before the new trait system even with only 2.5 trait line build Diversity was much better.

An advies bring back the old system but make it that you can chose 3 full trait lines like we have it now, but with the options of the old system.

Comments

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    Dear Anet please bring back the old trait system.
    You guys want to bring back build diversity right? Now bringing back the old system will do that. The only thing you need to chance about the old system is, if you chance 1 point in a elite spec you can't choice any other elite spec. This would bring back build diversity.

    I think the old trait system was better for balance, but for diversity? I don't think so. It was actually quite limiting.

  • Mr Godlike.6098Mr Godlike.6098 Member ✭✭✭

    To be honest i remeber the old days ...and build diversity was kinda the same....so the question is what is your definition of build diversity?

    Core are viable on the same level as elite spec's?
    You can make support healer bunker thief? w8 there was something like that in old wvw XD.
    Or you just want more then 1 build's viable on single class?

    The old system was actually more restricted and having 3 grand master traits was mind blowing for community.
    For me you sound like you would want to hammer nerf everthing...ele would be completely unplayable in pvp

  • @Mr Godlike.6098 said:
    To be honest i remeber the old days ...and build diversity was kinda the same....so the question is what is your definition of build diversity?

    Core are viable on the same level as elite spec's?
    You can make support healer bunker thief? w8 there was something like that in old wvw XD.
    Or you just want more then 1 build's viable on single class?

    The old system was actually more restricted and having 3 grand master traits was mind blowing for community.
    For me you sound like you would want to hammer nerf everthing...ele would be completely unplayable in pvp

    Yes i would like a nerf to everything, more to damage numbers. They can bring back the old system but make it that you can get 3 grandmaster. If they do that in the old system you can get more build diversity

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    more options isn't good if 90% are absolute garbage.
    the new system is leagues better for build diversity

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • @derd.6413 said:
    more options isn't good if 90% are absolute garbage.
    the new system is leagues better for build diversity

    No it is not. You only have 3 lines to choose. You call that buil diversity. old system you could make a real build that worked together from 4 to 5 traitlines. Build diversity is that you can take more then the basice 2 lines (take ranger everyone takes wilderness survivel and a elite spec then you have only 1 traitline over that is no diversity) and then at 1 extra line to it that is no build diversity. Diversity was like the old system you could chose 1 trait from a line and don't go in the full line because you didn't need/wanted. That is diversity.

  • HeadCrowned.6834HeadCrowned.6834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2018

    The problem then is that you only have to spend only 1 point on an elite spec in order to have access to the new weapon belonging to that elite spec. If you want to have the old trait system, they have to remove the restriction of specific traitlines to unlock a specific weapon. They won't do that, cuz balance.

  • @HeadCrowned.6834 said:
    The problem then is that you only have to spend only 1 point on an elite spec in order to have access to the new weapon belonging to that elite spec. If you want to have the old trait system, they have to remove the restriction of specific traitlines to unlock a specific weapon. They won't do that, cuz balance.

    No i disagree if you want the elite spec weapon and not the gm trait that should be fine. If you want for the guardian a longbow you need to sacrifice that you can't take the FB spec. What you said is the exemple of build diversity. I want a longbow on my guardian so i spant 1 point in dragonhunter, but don't care abou the other traits. So i don't spend more points in it. Now i have 17 points to spend in the 5 core trait lines. Instead of ow i only have 2 more trait lines to chose. For guardian everyone will chose valor, because it has the best traits in it. So i have now only 1 trait line to chose. See why you have no build diversity in the trait system now and you had a lot of diversity in the old system.

  • HeadCrowned.6834HeadCrowned.6834 Member ✭✭✭

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @HeadCrowned.6834 said:
    The problem then is that you only have to spend only 1 point on an elite spec in order to have access to the new weapon belonging to that elite spec. If you want to have the old trait system, they have to remove the restriction of specific traitlines to unlock a specific weapon. They won't do that, cuz balance.

    No i disagree if you want the elite spec weapon and not the gm trait that should be fine. If you want for the guardian a longbow you need to sacrifice that you can't take the FB spec. What you said is the exemple of build diversity. I want a longbow on my guardian so i spant 1 point in dragonhunter, but don't care abou the other traits. So i don't spend more points in it. Now i have 17 points to spend in the 5 core trait lines. Instead of ow i only have 2 more trait lines to chose. For guardian everyone will chose valor, because it has the best traits in it. So i have now only 1 trait line to chose. See why you have no build diversity in the trait system now and you had a lot of diversity in the old system.

    You overestimate the build diversity there was with the old system. I'm all for more build diversity, but you don't seem to get the point. If you only have to sacrifice 1 point to get access to a whole different weapon, it would cause balance issues. Besides, the relevance of the placement of a trait inside a traitline is really absent now. Quite often, adept traits are better than Grandmaster traits. It would require huge changes to go back to the old trait system.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No it is not. You only have 3 lines to choose. You call that buil diversity. old system you could make a real build that worked together from 4 to 5 traitlines. Build diversity is that you can take more then the basice 2 lines (take ranger everyone takes wilderness survivel and a elite spec then you have only 1 traitline over that is no diversity) and then at 1 extra line to it that is no build diversity. Diversity was like the old system you could chose 1 trait from a line and don't go in the full line because you didn't need/wanted. That is diversity.

    more vaiable options > more options

    if i took a dump on a buffet table that'd ad more options, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don't you worry. After the next patch, we'll be talking a lot more about class diversity instead of build diversity.

  • @HeadCrowned.6834 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @HeadCrowned.6834 said:
    The problem then is that you only have to spend only 1 point on an elite spec in order to have access to the new weapon belonging to that elite spec. If you want to have the old trait system, they have to remove the restriction of specific traitlines to unlock a specific weapon. They won't do that, cuz balance.

    No i disagree if you want the elite spec weapon and not the gm trait that should be fine. If you want for the guardian a longbow you need to sacrifice that you can't take the FB spec. What you said is the exemple of build diversity. I want a longbow on my guardian so i spant 1 point in dragonhunter, but don't care abou the other traits. So i don't spend more points in it. Now i have 17 points to spend in the 5 core trait lines. Instead of ow i only have 2 more trait lines to chose. For guardian everyone will chose valor, because it has the best traits in it. So i have now only 1 trait line to chose. See why you have no build diversity in the trait system now and you had a lot of diversity in the old system.

    You overestimate the build diversity there was with the old system. I'm all for more build diversity, but you don't seem to get the point. If you only have to sacrifice 1 point to get access to a whole different weapon, it would cause balance issues. Besides, the relevance of the placement of a trait inside a traitline is really absent now. Quite often, adept traits are better than Grandmaster traits. It would require huge changes to go back to the old trait system.

    Now old system there were atleast 5 good build and even more if you were good in making builds for every class. Now it is more like 2 to maybe 3. So no diversity almost.

  • more vaiable options > more options
    if i took a dump on a buffet table that'd ad more options, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    More options for a good players means more vaible options. Do you see where i'm going. A bad player see more options not like how a good player see it. A good player can make a build out of options even if they are not good in the eyes of a bad player

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2018

    More options for a good players means more vaible options. Do you see where i'm going. A bad player see more options not like how a good player see it. A good player can make a build out of options even if they are not good in the eyes of a bad player

    a bad player will make more builds because a good player can recognize if something doesn't work. the only things that a good player will use and a bad one won't, are skills/traits that are bland.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    more options isn't good if 90% are absolute garbage.
    the new system is leagues better for build diversity

    No it is not. You only have 3 lines to choose. You call that buil diversity. old system you could make a real build that worked together from 4 to 5 traitlines. Build diversity is that you can take more then the basice 2 lines (take ranger everyone takes wilderness survivel and a elite spec then you have only 1 traitline over that is no diversity) and then at 1 extra line to it that is no build diversity. Diversity was like the old system you could chose 1 trait from a line and don't go in the full line because you didn't need/wanted. That is diversity.

    The old trait system only gave the illusion of choice. Most of the trait selections weren't viable and most builds all picked the same low-hanging fruit - traits which were available in adept or master slots but very powerful. Build diversity was present under the old system because good use of skills and traits mattered as much as selecting skills and traits. Power creep is what reduced diversity - when certain skill and trait combinations are significantly better, they can't be overcome with better gameplay.

    The strengths of the new trait system over the old one are not evident because the re-design was only half-done. The overarching design of limited lines and mutual exclusion of traits works well. However, traits weren't swapped or moved between lines in order to give each trait line a cohesive style. And the choices in each major slot are rarely competitive with each other. The end result is that overall weak trait lines with a couple strong choices which had seen a few points invested in the old system for the low-hanging fruit, are now ignored because of low overall power. Trait lines which were invested in heavily in the old system are still chosen today.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2018

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    With a heavy gimick class design and combat what were u guys expecting to happen???

    Gimmick gameplay is the oposite design of skilled gameplay(player side skill), when a game goes fully on that component for PVE reasons, expect pvp gamemodes to get super damaged, no matter how much balance it is done, the gimmick design is always present.

    And that's just how it is. For the sake of 'fluent combat' we have too much spam of everything. Too many skills with no activation time or aftercast, too many things that can be used over and over, too many recharges that are too short, too many passive effects that constantly trigger on their own. Too many gimmicks that work without the need of skill fooling players into thinking themselves as skilled when they are merely exploiting a gimmick that should not exist in the first place.

    That will not be fixed by returning to an old version of the trait system. That will be fixed with cover mechanics that prevent things going out of hand. Anti-juggle mechanics that prevent stun locks, diminishing returns that ease condition spam on a player past a certain limit, a better pace and rhythm for the game. More use of skill ammo. Shared cooldowns for skills not meant to be used at the same time. Aftercasts for skills meant to be used while stunned or added to individual attacks,so they can't be just stacked and spammed for an inordinate burst. Preventing stacking the same AoEs from different players on the same target, and so on.

  • @Exedore.6320 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    more options isn't good if 90% are absolute garbage.
    the new system is leagues better for build diversity

    No it is not. You only have 3 lines to choose. You call that buil diversity. old system you could make a real build that worked together from 4 to 5 traitlines. Build diversity is that you can take more then the basice 2 lines (take ranger everyone takes wilderness survivel and a elite spec then you have only 1 traitline over that is no diversity) and then at 1 extra line to it that is no build diversity. Diversity was like the old system you could chose 1 trait from a line and don't go in the full line because you didn't need/wanted. That is diversity.

    The old trait system only gave the illusion of choice. Most of the trait selections weren't viable and most builds all picked the same low-hanging fruit - traits which were available in adept or master slots but very powerful. Build diversity was present under the old system because good use of skills and traits mattered as much as selecting skills and traits. Power creep is what reduced diversity - when certain skill and trait combinations are significantly better, they can't be overcome with better gameplay.

    The strengths of the new trait system over the old one are not evident because the re-design was only half-done. The overarching design of limited lines and mutual exclusion of traits works well. However, traits weren't swapped or moved between lines in order to give each trait line a cohesive style. And the choices in each major slot are rarely competitive with each other. The end result is that overall weak trait lines with a couple strong choices which had seen a few points invested in the old system for the low-hanging fruit, are now ignored because of low overall power. Trait lines which were invested in heavily in the old system are still chosen today.

    Because of the new system on guardian the shoud build is not possible anymore. Maybe if they chance the trait lines so that build diversety will comeback, but how it looks now the old system was better sorry to say. I'm not talking about the potential of the new system, if i did you would be maybe right but i'm talking about how it is now.

  • Ragion.2831Ragion.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    Too much content and balancing has been done based on the new system.The horrible combat we have now started with the change to the trait system so It would be nice if it came back . But even if the game keeps on going for the next 20 years the old system wont come back.

  • @Ragion.2831 said:
    Too much content and balancing has been done based on the new system.The horrible combat we have now started with the change to the trait system so It would be nice if it came back . But even if the game keeps on going for the next 20 years the old system wont come back.

    true. But a men can hope

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are 2 options to help diversity but it may just make things worse in both cases.

    Option 1: Add a new trait line for each class that isn't a unholy spec. Just extra traits. Then make it to where you can choose 4 traitlines with the 4th being a spec from expansion or another triat line.

    Option 2: Bite the bullet and finally go old school gw1 and start up the dual class system. Your main char can only use it's Expansion specs but any of the other traits and skill from the secondary class.

  • @derd.6413 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    There are 2 options to help diversity but it may just make things worse in both cases.

    Option 1: Add a new trait line for each class that isn't a unholy spec. Just extra traits. Then make it to where you can choose 4 traitlines with the 4th being a spec from expansion or another triat line.

    Option 2: Bite the bullet and finally go old school gw1 and start up the dual class system. Your main char can only use it's Expansion specs but any of the other traits and skill from the secondary class.

    or option 3: make all traits/lines good

    Option 3 best option. We currently have too many traits that are just useless, good on paper but don’t perform, or pale in comparison to other traits. But the trouble is how will that be accomplished without massive power creep.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    There are 2 options to help diversity but it may just make things worse in both cases.

    Option 1: Add a new trait line for each class that isn't a unholy spec. Just extra traits. Then make it to where you can choose 4 traitlines with the 4th being a spec from expansion or another triat line.

    Option 2: Bite the bullet and finally go old school gw1 and start up the dual class system. Your main char can only use it's Expansion specs but any of the other traits and skill from the secondary class.

    or option 3: make all traits/lines good

    Option 3 best option. We currently have too many traits that are just useless, good on paper but don’t perform, or pale in comparison to other traits. But the trouble is how will that be accomplished without massive power creep.

    by figuring out what each trait line is supposed to do and make it work.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • @derd.6413 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    There are 2 options to help diversity but it may just make things worse in both cases.

    Option 1: Add a new trait line for each class that isn't a unholy spec. Just extra traits. Then make it to where you can choose 4 traitlines with the 4th being a spec from expansion or another triat line.

    Option 2: Bite the bullet and finally go old school gw1 and start up the dual class system. Your main char can only use it's Expansion specs but any of the other traits and skill from the secondary class.

    or option 3: make all traits/lines good

    Option 3 best option. We currently have too many traits that are just useless, good on paper but don’t perform, or pale in comparison to other traits. But the trouble is how will that be accomplished without massive power creep.

    by figuring out what each trait line is supposed to do and make it work.

    Yes well look at who we are depending on to do that. I’m not sure the balance team is capable of such a big undertaking.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    There are 2 options to help diversity but it may just make things worse in both cases.

    Option 1: Add a new trait line for each class that isn't a unholy spec. Just extra traits. Then make it to where you can choose 4 traitlines with the 4th being a spec from expansion or another triat line.

    Option 2: Bite the bullet and finally go old school gw1 and start up the dual class system. Your main char can only use it's Expansion specs but any of the other traits and skill from the secondary class.

    or option 3: make all traits/lines good

    Option 3 best option. We currently have too many traits that are just useless, good on paper but don’t perform, or pale in comparison to other traits. But the trouble is how will that be accomplished without massive power creep.

    by figuring out what each trait line is supposed to do and make it work.

    Yes well look at who we are depending on to do that. I’m not sure the balance team is capable of such a big undertaking.

    they do seem to like purity of purpose so maybe one day

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • BlackBeard.2873BlackBeard.2873 Member ✭✭✭

    The new trait system is much better for creating something balanced, as it prevents abuse of "picking and choosing the actually most OP stuff."

    The failure is that there balance cycle is every 3-4 months, and Anet never actually nerfed the OP stuff enough, and thus can only very gradually buff the UP stuff to prevent creating even more OP monster-builds.

    Balance is the biggest failure in this game.

  • This system only work if they Remove the power creep

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    Option 4: Make one of the core trait lines into an elite spec. For most professions, the best choice would be the last trait line which works with the unique profession mechanic. It would shake up a lot of current builds, but by limiting the interaction of that trait line with elite specs, developers have more control over what they want elite specs to do.

  • Xillllix.3485Xillllix.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    The stats tied to the old trait lines is actually what balanced the game. You couldn't just take defensive lines for example and then max out your power, or take all offensive lines and max out your def defensive stats. When they broke this they broke the balance completely.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2018

    @Xillllix.3485 said:
    The stats tied to the old trait lines is actually what balanced the game. You couldn't just take defensive lines for example and then max out your power, or take all offensive lines and max out your def defensive stats. When they broke this they broke the balance completely.

    False. Many popular builds from before the re-work did take the defensive lines and used offensive amulets and runes. In fact, that configuration was preferable. You got a some defensive stats and then could easily invest into all offense with the amulet and runes. Comparatively, trying to find a bit of defense from 3-stat amulets and with runes was hard (most of the runes with defensive stats had bad procs).

    The power creep came from the amount of stats added to amulets after removing them from traits (too much was added). And then with the 4-stat combos, even more total stats were added to the amulets.

  • @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Xillllix.3485 said:
    The stats tied to the old trait lines is actually what balanced the game. You couldn't just take defensive lines for example and then max out your power, or take all offensive lines and max out your def defensive stats. When they broke this they broke the balance completely.

    False. Many popular builds from before the re-work did take the defensive lines and used offensive amulets and runes. In fact, that configuration was preferable. You got a some defensive stats and then could easily invest into all offense with the amulet and runes. Comparatively, trying to find a bit of defense from 3-stat amulets and with runes was hard (most of the runes with defensive stats had bad procs).

    The power creep came from the amount of stats added to amulets after removing them from traits (too much was added). And then with the 4-stat combos, even more total stats were added to the amulets.

    true

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    I think keeping the new system intact is good. But, I think if we made all the major traits selectable from a drop down box, instead of choosing from 3 per major trait, then that would open up more in terms of build diversity. So, kind of a mix of old and new system styles.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    I think keeping the new system intact is good. But, I think if we made all the major traits selectable from a drop down box, instead of choosing from 3 per major trait, then that would open up more in terms of build diversity. So, kind of a mix of old and new system styles.

    Two problems with that which make this idea fall flat:
    1. In how many cases would your trait choices differ? Probably not much. This speaks to an overall lack of interesting or viable traits.
    2. In cases where your choice does change, you'll see a significant power increase. In this case, it's likely that the mutual exclusion of traits - only being able to pick one of three - was intended as a way to limit power and create interesting choices.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭

    Cheese or die!

    Necro. Never knowingly blasting combo fields since 2012.

  • First of all they need to split more because you get pve numbers and you don't want that. After they have done that nerf hammer and more balance patches that is how they can safe the game. If they also bring back the old system would be heaven.

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