Why do people pretend that Mesmers have a high skill floor?

Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season.

Suggestions to fix this shit:

Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, cd increase is ineffective due to signet of ether. Effectively, so long as the signet has a lower CD than the phantasm in question, a cd increase accomplishes nothing

Shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s

mes needs less access to instant cc

mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy

Sword ambush needs to either lose the daze, or lose the clone

Messmores, are the "baby" of gw. Too bad they lost a unique status when they became this cloniferous time mage thing. A bunch of made up words in my posting.

Honestly? Mesmers require more micro-managing than most players can deal with. And, again honestly? A lot of players are bad in PvE against AI controlled mobs. Put them against a player who has even a little bit of skill? And well . . . you get situations like in the video above.

In other words, it's not that mesmers require huge skill, it's that most PvP players lack the basic skill required to be competitive against competent and opposing players.

I agree with you. I've never seen a game where they've allowed one class to have Reflects, Invis, Evades, Illusions, Blocks, and the current meta dps (Condition) all in one go.The base mechanics for the class are excessiveAlso they are the only form of tank in PvE which leads to very boring and repetitive raids . So a nerf to em wouldn't be a bad.

It actually has the lowest skill floor. Any class with a ton of buttons which can make you invulnerable to damage is easy to play.

Why do people pretend any class in GW2 has high skill floor?

Imo you can't say anything is "skilled or not skilled" in pvp apart from when there are mechanics with a lack of player control reducing player input. Whoever plays better plays better. They do scale differently at different levels tho which people will distort into saying the class they dislike or whatever is unskilled. And people rather complain than compliment a class and it's design so in the end everyone says everything is unskilled which is just stupid. Strength is a seperate question.

As you said yourself

@Egorum.9506 said:over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon.

You've been playing for 5 years, I think by now you should understand abilities, combo's, rotations and most importantly the enemy team comp capabilities over the new players, of course you gunna do well.

I'm the worst thief there is, I can do well because I've also played for 5 years, have 3+ of every class and understand most class mechanics, that immediately gives me an edge over someone who started with PoF but I'm certainly not going to boast about how OP thief is, that would be illogical.

Experienced > Inexperienced.... As someone else pointed out too, not a lot of players have the competence to face another competent player.

To try and justify why it should never get nerfed out of the meta

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:To try and justify why it should never get nerfed out of the meta

As long as it has portal I doubt it will ever be out of meta again.

@"Egorum.9506" said:Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season.

Whoa there buddy, whoa! How dare you say mesmers have too much access to blocks, evades and invul! Mesmer defenders will say they don't have access to all that in one spec! Sure mirage doesn't, but they just trade blocks for more evades. Same crap different name.

Wait I'm confused at some of the posts here. A high skill FLOOR to me means that even if you're a clueless noob you can only play so poorly with the build because its easy to play. A low skill floor would indicate to me that some skill is involved and you can actually screw up pretty badly if you don't know what you're doing.

Some of the posts here make me think that's not the case though

@"Legatus.3608" said:Wait I'm confused at some of the posts here. A high skill FLOOR to me means that even if you're a clueless noob you can only play so poorly with the build because its easy to play. A low skill floor would indicate to me that some skill is involved and you can actually screw up pretty badly if you don't know what you're doing.

Some of the posts here make me think that's not the case though

https://esportsedition.com/general/skill-ceiling-skill-floor-esports-terminology/

They are getting the terms mixed up.

@"Egorum.9506" said:Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season.

I’m not going to comment on your gameplay or your opponents but go with this instead. There are multiple Mesmer mains (ithliwen doesn’t count so ignore her) that are advocating for nerfs. However, unlike you and the vast majority of people her, we want the right things nerfed. No one is denying(again ithliwen doesn’t count) that Mesmer is strong and needs certain things nerfed.That doesn’t mean it’s fine for you to come here, offer ZERO suggestions, and just essentially say I’ve played 300 games, I know everything, nerf everything. That’s bull kitten and you know it. So rather than having ambiguous posts come up with changes you think need to happen, post those instead so it can be debated. Otherwise your opinion is about as useless as ithliwen’s.

It's a bit odd that you think after 5 years you shouldn't be able to do that. I rarely play Ranger but can still win outnumbered fights because my knowledge of the game (also after 5 years) allows me to do so.

Also a video showing selected success can never be evidence of over performance. We could always get someone to do a video of all the times they've lost with the exact same build to show how weak it is and then demand buffs.

@alksoe.6198 said:I agree with you. I've never seen a game where they've allowed one class to have Reflects, Invis, Evades, Illusions, Blocks, and the current meta dps (Condition) all in one go.The base mechanics for the class are excessiveAlso they are the only form of tank in PvE which leads to very boring and repetitive raids . So a nerf to em wouldn't be a bad.

The fact you just said conditions were meta eliminates whatever you say. There’s one meta build based around conditions and that Scourge. Every other class is running a power based build. Not to mention that condi Mesmer isn’t nearly as strong as it was since the confusion nerf. It has two damaging conditions- torment and burn. With axe it has decent uptime on torment, burn comes from torch, decent up time on low power bleed, and everything else does poor damage through staff. The only way Staff condi will kill you is if you let them AA and if you’re doing that... please don’t post about things you don’t understand.

Anyone can pick up this class and do well within hours of using it. There are so many get out of jail free cards up its sleeves. Passive conditions cleanse, passive damage increases, passive cc. All you have to do is play defensively and people just drop around you. Decrease phantasm damage (because ether signet voids any cd increases you give) decrease access to block and invulnerable (1s on shield) add a 25% damage reduction to shatterstorm (just like imagined burden).

The fact is I have no muscle memory for the class and a fairly poor understanding of how it even works, much less an internal timer for when phantasms will attack to combo the damage effectively. But with a zerker ammy had almost no problems in 1v2s due to the abundance of low CD blocks and invulns available.

Mesmers atm just deliver an endless barrage of damage, all of them being dodge worthy (multiple ambush skills, mirror blade, mind stab, multiple shatters, stun mantra, damage mantra, multiple phantasm attacks, etc), while being nearly immune to retaliation (not the boon).

Like ok, you used your burst, let me try to use mine? Nope. Stealth, sword#2, dodges up the ass, blocks and more blocks, distortion invuln, disorienting clone spam (even if you get lost for 1 second, it still is disorienting). AND IF YOU DO LAND THE CC, THEY CAN DODGE WHILE CC'D OR EVEN BETTER, ELUSIVE MIND AWAY!

Braindead spec.

PS: I realize there are multiple mesmer builds, but they all share at least 80% of the things I mentioned so while the staff build might not use mantras, they have the blocks, etc.

@Egorum.9506 said:Anyone can pick up this class and do well within hours of using it. There are so many get out of jail free cards up its sleeves. Passive conditions cleanse, passive damage increases, passive cc. All you have to do is play defensively and people just drop around you. Decrease phantasm damage (because ether signet voids any cd increases you give) decrease access to block and invulnerable (1s on shield) add a 25% damage reduction to shatterstorm (just like imagined burden).

The fact is I have no muscle memory for the class and a fairly poor understanding of how it even works, much less an internal timer for when phantasms will attack to combo the damage effectively. But with a zerker ammy had almost no problems in 1v2s due to the abundance of low CD blocks and invulns available.

Well I must I thought I’d seen everything by passive condi cleanse? Mesmer doesn’t have passive condi cleanse.

As for your other points... where to start.Damage- mental anguish is being nerfed. Now that’s not the problem so it won’t really solve anything. They need to rework confounding suggestion as it, MoD and MA have too much synergy. They need to reduce the damage modifier on phantasm summon.

Name the passive CC please as I can’t think of any cc we have that’s passive.

Mesmer shield is fine. The amount of unblockable attacks in the game is higher than on release and it has counter play. Don’t carelessly throw out attacks and you won’t trigger the second block. You can also dodge the phantasm summon. The only phantasm you can dodge the summon on.

Certain phantasms do need a damage reduction. I’d start with a 10-15% base reduction on swordsman, defender and disenchanter. Those are the big ones, the others are fine.

Signet of Ether is only useful with Chrono and this is less a problem with it and phantasm cd’s(which are fine) than it is with there not being a phantasm cap. Cap phantasms off at 3 and problem solved. This eliminates the need to try and nerf SoE, Chrono f5 and chronophantasma.

I don’t see anyone run shatter storm but 20% should be ok.

Blocks- Mesmer has three weapons that provide block, 2 block one hit the other blocks for channel duration. You can counter play them all. Aegis can be gotten through RnG with staff and Signet of Inspiration but again, rng.

Invulns- the best one is on a 50s cd for up to 4 second. Kill clones and it’s 1 sec. that’s a lot of counter play. Blurred Frenzy isn’t an invuln as Mesmer still takes damage during it. Mirrors are a half baked mechanic that only works on small nodes.

And then we come to the biggest thing. You admit to having no idea about the class yet you want to start proposing nerfs and stating idiotic things like passive condi clear. Passive means you don’t do anything. Ranger has passive condi clear as every 10 seconds the pet takes a condi. No button press, no summoning skills, etc. it just does it on it own. If you can admit that you have a poor understanding of the class then don’t come asking for nerfs until you understand what is actually strong vs l2p.

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@Egorum.9506 said:Anyone can pick up this class and do well within hours of using it. There are so many get out of jail free cards up its sleeves. Passive conditions cleanse, passive damage increases, passive cc. All you have to do is play defensively and people just drop around you. Decrease phantasm damage (because ether signet voids any cd increases you give) decrease access to block and invulnerable (1s on shield) add a 25% damage reduction to shatterstorm (just like imagined burden).

The fact is I have no muscle memory for the class and a fairly poor understanding of how it even works, much less an internal timer for when phantasms will attack to combo the damage effectively. But with a zerker ammy had almost no problems in 1v2s due to the abundance of low CD blocks and invulns available.

@Egorum.9506 said:

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@Egorum.9506 said:Anyone can pick up this class and do well within hours of using it. There are so many get out of jail free cards up its sleeves. Passive conditions cleanse, passive damage increases, passive cc. All you have to do is play defensively and people just drop around you. Decrease phantasm damage (because ether signet voids any cd increases you give) decrease access to block and invulnerable (1s on shield) add a 25% damage reduction to shatterstorm (just like imagined burden).

The fact is I have no muscle memory for the class and a fairly poor understanding of how it even works, much less an internal timer for when phantasms will attack to combo the damage effectively. But with a zerker ammy had almost no problems in 1v2s due to the abundance of low CD blocks and invulns available.

No you said passive damage increase. Then later on you said reduce phantasm damage. Mental Anguish and Superiority Complex both boost passive damage and need slight nerfs. MA needs nerfed via a rework of confounding suggestions.

Name the passive CC please as I can’t think of any cc we have that’s passive.Mental defense.Mental defense summons a phantasm which then uses taunt. Not my definition of passive as the AI is taunting. But whatever.

Mesmer shield is fine. The amount of unblockable attacks in the game is higher than on release and it has counter play. Don’t carelessly throw out attacks and you won’t trigger the second block. You can also dodge the phantasm summon. The only phantasm you can dodge the summon on.Fun fact, you can use the block as they're using a skill, or standing in an aoe field! This triggers mental defense, which taunts the target so they can't dodge the phantasm. Disenchanter respawn should stop them from having stability, or you can immobilize with sw3. Either way, they can't dodge all 6 phantasms the shield and MD produces

Multiple things here. One if you’re getting caught by sword swap... lol. I feel bad for you. Second, there’s things called stun breaks for taunt so counterplay there. Not to mention the outrageous 50s cd on those skills. I addressed a solution to the multiple phantasm summons already.

Certain phantasms do need a damage reduction. I’d start with a 10-15% base reduction on swordsman, defender and disenchanter. Those are the big ones, the others are fine.Shield phantasm crits for 8k regularly

Yes, and as stated you can prevent the summon of it vs the others you can’t. I don’t see the problem here.

Signet of Ether is only useful with Chrono and this is less a problem with it and phantasm cd’s(which are fine) than it is with there not being a phantasm cap. Cap phantasms off at 3 and problem solved. This eliminates the need to try and nerf SoE, Chrono f5 and chronophantasma.Great solution

Thank you

I don’t see anyone run shatter storm but 20% should be ok.MO shatter MO heals.Blocks- Mesmer has three weapons that provide block, 2 block one hit the other blocks for channel duration. You can counter play them all. Aegis can be gotten through RnG with staff and Signet of Inspiration but again, rng.Sw2, shield 4 X2 (soe). Staff disengage, stealth, blink. Disengage and damage mitigation for days. Something has to give

Sw2 isn’t not a block, nor is phase retreat, stealth or blink. If you want to talk about those we can but they are separate issues than blocks.

Invulns- the best one is on a 50s cd for up to 4 second. Kill clones and it’s 1 sec. that’s a lot of counter play. Blurred Frenzy isn’t an invuln as Mesmer still takes damage during it. Mirrors are a half baked mechanic that only works on small nodes.You don't take damage during blur, and you take condition damage during both. Mirage dodge is able to be chained with these and makes it impossible to pin one down.

And you’re wrong. Retal damage is taken during blur which is a key difference.

And then we come to the biggest thing. You admit to having no idea about the class yet you want to start proposing nerfs and stating idiotic things like passive condi clear. Passive means you don’t do anything. Ranger has passive condi clear as every 10 seconds the pet takes a condi. No button press, no summoning skills, etc. it just does it on it own. If you can admit that you have a poor understanding of the class then don’t come asking for nerfs until you understand what is actually strong vs l2p.Pretty sure I don't need to know the class to see how broken it is, since I picked it up and spent an afternoon rocking people. Easy class is easy, it needs hit with the ugly stick.

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:You should just make a thread with solution how to make mesmer more balanced,i would add to it as well ;)Instead of posting it everywhere..On that video i recognized only silver players ,much wow ;)

@Odik.4587 said:

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:You should just make a thread with solution how to make mesmer more balanced,i would add to it as well ;)Instead of posting it everywhere..On that video i recognized only silver players ,much wow ;)

Maybe, I’ll think about it. Although I have the sneaking suspicion that it would turn into a thread where some people are being logical and others are just complaining because they don’t like Mesmer because they won’t take the time to see what they could do differently.

Seems generally people think mesmer is out of control. Usually a nerf is inbound when this many people talk about how broken something is. At this point mesmer mains should be worried. The wrong thing to do would be to straight nerf its defensive abilities or it will end up like thief (between the June 25th patch and HoT launch)

In case you dont know what happened, Anet went on a crusade to kill evades because many many people complained about thief evades. Vigor got nerfed for everyone and thief endurance gain on evade (old feline grace) got replaced with the nerfed vigor. Thief became useless and was the worst class in pvp until HoT launched. Vigor change eventually got reverted.

Mesmer has been built from the ground up to work only with extreme defense. Its worse now with all the damage. There was a time that mesmer was not all that, it was ok if you were good, but you had to be really good. Thief especially hard countered it and maybe warrior.

Mesmer used to be especially vulnerable right after it used its burst which caused a lot of cries so Anet used HoT to buff its attack frequency and defenses to oblivion. This is why we are where we are now.

Straight nerfing mes to the point where they dont evade or go invulnerable as often may end up killing the class. Like thief, it depends on the permanent evades. So maybe they could cut its offense by like 30%. So no more insta-combo kills and no more relentless clone spam and cut the amount of dazes, conditions and stuns they can apply

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:You should just make a thread with solution how to make mesmer more balanced,i would add to it as well ;)Instead of posting it everywhere..On that video i recognized only silver players ,much wow ;)

Give it a try ,this people that complaint endlessly alrdy have billion of their own threads