Unblock-able Deaths Judgement

So about a year ago I put a Thief into my rotation as a DE. I am still playing it, before I was really only playing P/P with some D/D thrown in for lulz. With the new rework I find the rifle aspect to be better for me at least, the old version really did not click with me. But there is one issue for me.

I also have been playing against the spec since release on my main and the new change to Deaths Judgment has been a big problem counter play wise. Before I could save my Shield Block for Deaths Judgement and if I used it at the right time I could negate a 20,000 damage hit and even reflect it back to the DE if he let me.

So I had a lot of close fights, if I managed to do the right thing at the right time I could win, if I did not I would loose and I was totally ok with that.

But now things are a lot different, Making Deaths Judgement a Unblock-able attack means an auto loss now, it really does not matter how my timing is, the single most important attack that I absolutely must block will instead hit me every time.

Its one thing to spam dodge rolls early and then get caught out, its another thing to have a really close battle only to get hit by an unblock-able attack for 20k plus. It feels really bad.

I really think piercing was the better route to take for DJ, this could increase the chance for a big hit on multiple targets, but by making it block-able/reflect-able would still have counter-play.

It's a sneak attack that takes resources to achieve high-damage and even more resources to even be able to activate. On top of require multiple prerequisites it also has without a doubt the largest and most visible tell as well as the loudest tell, which also reveals the Thief at the beginning of the cast. If this were to lose its unblockable nature, then be prepared for it to have no visual and audio queues - because that would be a fair tradeoff.

I am not going to argue about class mechanics, the thief resource system is fine, it has a high skill cap with high reward for skilled players. I am going to leave Stealth out of this for once, never going to agree on that.

I think for a 20k plus damaging hit in one single skill you should have to be aware of Shield Stances and reflects. Now they can simply be ignored, not sure how that RAISES the skill cap on using this skill.

I know I have to be aware of Shield Stances and Reflects when I use Kill-Shot on my Warrior, and I have a long channeling time while kneeling, and I am visible the whole time. If I want my Kill-Shot to to Unblock-able I have to drop a valuable utility slot to take Signet of Rage, and I still have to hit SoR at the right time, When I know my Kill-Shot will connect. I also need 3 bars of Adrenaline as well for max damage, the highest hit I have ever had is 16k.

I think is fair for the set-up on these higher damaging ranged single shot attacks, (KS and DJ) but they should be vulnerable to Blocks and Reflects (unless a trade off is made) playing around them is the real skill.

Right now DJ does not follow this rule.

@sneakytails.5629 said:I am not going to argue about class mechanics, the thief resource system is fine, it has a high skill cap with high reward for skilled players. I am going to leave Stealth out of this for once, never going to agree on that.

I think for a 20k plus damaging hit in one single skill you should have to be aware of Shield Stances and reflects. Now they can simply be ignored, not sure how that RAISES the skill cap on using this skill.

I know I have to be aware of Shield Stances and Reflects when I use Kill-Shot on my Warrior, and I have a long channeling time while kneeling, and I am visible the whole time. If I want my Kill-Shot to to Unblock-able I have to drop a valuable utility slot to take Signet of Rage, and I still have to hit SoR at the right time, When I know my Kill-Shot will connect. I also need 3 bars of Adrenaline as well for max damage, the highest hit I have ever had is 16k.

I think is fair for the set-up on these higher damaging ranged single shot attacks, (KS and DJ) but they should be vulnerable to Blocks and Reflects (unless a trade off is made) playing around them is the real skill.

Right now DJ does not follow this rule.

It still takes resources to build that Malice and On the use of DJ that malice is drained. You can counter by a change as to what you bl0ck and what you dodge. Instead of using a block or reflect on DJ yyou use it on the Two Round Burst or skirmishers as this all the theif will really use for malice gain. Time this properly and you can hurt with refelcts even as you delay the malice build. Eventually the thief WILL build that malice as you can not block everything and that when you use that dodge in response to the tell.

@sneakytails.5629 said:I think is fair for the set-up on these higher damaging ranged single shot attacks, (KS and DJ) but they should be vulnerable to Blocks and Reflects (unless a trade off is made) playing around them is the real skill.

Right now DJ does not follow this rule.

I literally just told you what the trade-offs were. I'll make a list of requirements for your convenience:

• Must trait M7 - losing higher initial burst from forsaking BQoBK
• Must spend initiative (successfully, cannot have those initiative-based attacks be blocked/evaded, etc) to gain malice
• Must gain stealth, therefore using either a dodge or a utility or elite skill
• Must have Power, Precision, and Ferocity, therefore being extremely squishy. It is debatable that you don't need precision, but that would be a weak argument considering you would lose out on two of the damage-increasing traits from CS.

Now on top of those requirements, you as the victim have to:

• Be unaware of the largest visual queue in the game telling you to Dodge (swap weapon for energy sigil if you're out?), Whirlwind attack, Full Counter, or LOS
• Be unaware of the loudest audio queue in the game telling you the same as above

@sneakytails.5629 said:I am not going to argue about class mechanics, the thief resource system is fine, it has a high skill cap with high reward for skilled players. I am going to leave Stealth out of this for once, never going to agree on that.

I think for a 20k plus damaging hit in one single skill you should have to be aware of Shield Stances and reflects. Now they can simply be ignored, not sure how that RAISES the skill cap on using this skill.

I know I have to be aware of Shield Stances and Reflects when I use Kill-Shot on my Warrior, and I have a long channeling time while kneeling, and I am visible the whole time. If I want my Kill-Shot to to Unblock-able I have to drop a valuable utility slot to take Signet of Rage, and I still have to hit SoR at the right time, When I know my Kill-Shot will connect. I also need 3 bars of Adrenaline as well for max damage, the highest hit I have ever had is 16k.

I think is fair for the set-up on these higher damaging ranged single shot attacks, (KS and DJ) but they should be vulnerable to Blocks and Reflects (unless a trade off is made) playing around them is the real skill.

Right now DJ does not follow this rule.

Um... Excuse my limited knowledge but I want to know how your dealing 20k DJs without malice? Unless your are factoring in malice in which case, I would hazard to call what you are doing a one-shot.

Also, comparing DE's Death's Judgement to warrior's Kill-shot seems wierd considering that not only is KS easier to gain access to, it also pierce and has higher base.

For DJ to deal more damage than KS, a DE has to skirmish in order to gain malice... Meaning that if a DE goes invisible, the DE's opponent should be expecting a DJ.

Count skills that hit you and preserve a dodge roll for every third or fourth attack when the thief enters stealth. DE gets 2 malice per crit on a skill using initiative. Instead of block or invuln, use a dodge roll as they're revealing for the attack (DJ self-reveals at the start of the animation). Blocks and invulns should be able to shut down a lot of the sources of damage leading up to the DJ, and the thief needs to spend several initiative assuming the hits land/crit to be able to max it out. If you conserve a dodge, there's not much it can do as far as your standard rotation is concerned. The warrior should otherwise be able to win the matchup quite easily since it current counters thief.

DJ has a low base damage and is made strong thanks to the damage amp on stealth attacks.

If you're getting one-shotted by D/P Deadeye with malicious backstab, there's no real tell and you just need to pray you kill it immediately and dodge roll at the right time. It's stupid.

Spellbreakers can also Full Counter the DJ as 100% of the damage is reduced if you don't feel like dodging.

Deaths Judgement does require setup, and yes its involved, but it really does hit hard, last night I was hit for 25k in one hit, I do not have a problem with the skill hitting this hard. The tension between the resource system of the class and the durability of the class is what makes the higher skill cap on the class and what makes it play the way it does, its kinda why I picked it up.

My issue is how Deaths Judgement went from a skill that needed to play around blocks and reflects to one that now does not, with the skill hitting just as hard as it was before. The Unblock-able addition has greatly reduced counter-play to this skill.

I really feel like a 25k hit from a skill should at least have a chance to be countered outside of a dodge roll.

It just feels more skill-full on the side of the player, and for those playing against it.

Pierce would have been the better choice.

Right now the odds are in your favor of a DJ being nullified by broken obstruction or range. If it does get through I don't know how common 20k+ is, it certainly isn't for me.

I have l2p issues, but it's a lot of work to get malice up, conserve a stealth, not let the DJ go early, and stay alive with someone all over you. If DJ doesn't force a heal, disengage, or finish them you're resource starved and have to start the whole cycle over again IF you survive. Rifle is an exercise in patience and execution, more so than any other thief kit imo.

Getting worn down and caught by a shield 4 to full adrenaline eviscerate sucks too, but......

Cast time and big audio cue. What more do you want? You have Full counter, dodge, stun, LOS, Defy pain to counter it.

Oh yeah, forgot to add that in the current state of the game this attack is also obstructed by slight differences in terrain or even invisible barriers in a completely open field. And much like every other attack with a rifle, it is often "out of range" even when you are only 1000 units away from your target...

So... In simple terms your writing off the DE until they hit you with DJ and then whining about the DJ that you know should be coming if you kept an eye on the DE.

Seems this is less of a problem with DE and more a map awereness problem.

@sneakytails.5629 said:Deaths Judgement does require setup, and yes its involved, but it really does hit hard, last night I was hit for 25k in one hit, I do not have a problem with the skill hitting this hard. The tension between the resource system of the class and the durability of the class is what makes the higher skill cap on the class and what makes it play the way it does, its kinda why I picked it up.

My issue is how Deaths Judgement went from a skill that needed to play around blocks and reflects to one that now does not, with the skill hitting just as hard as it was before. The Unblock-able addition has greatly reduced counter-play to this skill.

I really feel like a 25k hit from a skill should at least have a chance to be countered outside of a dodge roll.

It just feels more skill-full on the side of the player, and for those playing against it.

Pierce would have been the better choice.

In the current metagame with all Aegis, blocks and dodge frames going, DJ without unblockable would never hit anything. People would just play DE like pre-patch and kill targets spamming Rifle 3#.

BTW, ther eason DJ is unblockable is that the past stealth skill was unblockable. and the community asked to keep the unblockable skill.

DJ isn't broken in any way, there are simple too many warnings for it. And just like you say, Dodge negates ANYTHING.

I mean, it takes time, positioning and a blind opponent to land. That's a hefty cost.

With such a huge visual and audio queue in DJ, I don't know how it's possible to not see it happening in PvP (not WvW). If you're fighting a rifle deadeye, just save a dodge. Also, pretty sure every profession has a way to invulnerable or another way to negate damage, so it's not like you're forced to dodge everything being thrown at you. Deadeye has a considerably less amount of damage negation when compared to S/D and DrD so it's not like it's as if you're boxing with a super ouchy shadow.

How about we compare this to dragon's maw (which I know, DH has fallen out of favor with HoT).

Dragon's Maw2.4 ratio + 10 might + 4s slow + hard CC for about 1.5 seconds. Literally can't see traps. UNEVADABLE. Hit's up to 5 people.75 seconds cooldown, but cooldown starts on trap activation, not trap placement. So best case you can trap, wait 15 seconds, trap again.When traited, 1.5s extra slow, 60s cd instead.

DJ3.38 ratio if 7 malice. One person. UNBLOCKABLE and...that's it. Pretty huge tell. I admit that it's a lot harder to notice DJ if the thief has quickness, but there's not that many ways for them to get quickness.Takes at least a 10 second fight to even generate 7 malice (3 three round bursts). Also you must be hitting your marked target, so it definitely isn't going to be a surprise. Probably a good 20 seconds for the next high-powered DJ.Additionally, malice doesn't stack if you miss your target. And takes even longer if it doesn't crit.

Now I don't want to make it a "since the other one is more OP, this is OK". But if you think Dragon's Maw is fair, then DJ should be too. Also imagine a thief trying to fight a DH back in the good ol' days. Unless you take bandit's defense, you're going to get hit by Dragon's Maw.

@sneakytails.5629 said:

Its one thing to spam dodge rolls early and then get caught out, its another thing to have a really close battle only to get hit by an unblock-able attack for 20k plus. It feels really bad.

So.... Then dodge? Blind. Interrupt. Daze. Full Counter. Teleport. Run behind a wall. Whatever. You're complaining to thieves. The people who actively avoids damage because we don't have good passive defenses. We don't want to hear it. It's your fault if you get hit by it when you can see it coming with the number of tells that are in it by design

A stealth required. Rifle must be out. You're forced out of stealth. And they are momentarily immobile.

Combined with the current meta where everyone but thief is super tanky and stacks aegis, and deals bonkers damage without needing to go glass, what do you want Deadeye to do, exactly? Politely wait and hope you don't notice aegis is out while you're pummeling his face in?

If there's anything unfair about this, its how someone won't take responsibility for their own loss when they gave plenty of tools in almost every build to stop it.

I tested out, with my main Rifle Deadeye, the ways of hitting 16k+ damage out of DJ, and seriously, the Deadeye who hit you for 20k+ damage was extremely good at surviving. As a warrior, you can easily negate 3RB (3 round burst) with the shield stance, or anything that makes you invulnerable or that blocks attacks. Furthermore, as you know, we need to hit our marked targets to actually get any malice at all.To see how easy it was to hit the minimal 16k damage I used to do, I had to go full glass cannon - with a health pool of 11.6k. That makes us very, very vulnerable to any type of damage, be it condition damage or plain damage. I also had to pop Assassin's Signet within the cast of DJ (not that difficult, but it's easy to avoid by CC or by dodging).That basically means that the Deadeye you encountered had very well outplayed you since he or she could generate the full 7 stacks of malice necessary (because we need M7 to hit over 20k), evade or negate most to all of your damage output, cast A'sS while being revealed and having to cast DJ (which is very long).I do not see why we would need to nerf DJ to an unblockable attack, and I think you can agree with my mentioned elements.Removing the unblockable DJ would eliminate any type of pressure a Deadeye can do when there is a field or a bubble that blocks projectile. Then, Deadeye would be left with nothing but poor damage output.

Don't point a specialization's strongest attacks saying "It's OP, and needs a nerf" since there are counters to everything. People over this comment mentioned multiple ways to avoid DJ's damage output (and any of Deadeye's damage output too). There was a skill difference between you and the Deadeye, yes. There wasn't an imbalance between classes.

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:...As a warrior, you can easily negate 3RB (3 round burst) with the shield stance, or anything that makes you invulnerable or that blocks attacks. Furthermore, as you know, we need to hit our marked targets to actually get any malice at all.

Endure Pain will still allow malice to stack, even though we are hitting for "0" damage, it is still hitting the marked target thus generating malice.

@Turk.5460 said:

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:...As a warrior, you can easily negate 3RB (3 round burst) with the shield stance, or anything that makes you invulnerable or that blocks attacks. Furthermore, as you know, we need to hit our marked targets to actually get any malice at all.

same for full counter. i can oneshot many warriors with an m7 backstab so i often shoot into their fullcounter for malice as i dont need to care for adrenal health and their full counter hit wont touch me on range.

as for the thread i dont see the point in this, i mean if DJ was blockable there would be no reason to even use the skill and everyone would allways use the far more powerfull skill for their malice: malicious backstab. if you instead of a 20k DJ prefer a 25k backstab...but hey at least you can block a backstab :3fighting a deadeye you have to avoid malice build up and try them not to get in stealth, both pretty dificult on warrior. you can sustain the buildup shots with balanced stance, endure pain or full counter but they dont have enough reflects/evades to avoid it for long. they also dont have the option to burst the deadeye fast enough as they dont have instant gapclosers or range damage/cc, so till they reach the deadeye he can just roll into stealth again. and if you cant pressure the deadeye no amount of sustain will help you in the fight. the best option for warrior is probably to play as gunflame warrior and hope the deadeye is not on valkyre. but even then if the deadeye plays it safe and with dagger in offset the chances of the warrior are pretty low, cause to survive a malicious backstab you have to build that tanky that you wont be able to pressure enough.nerfing DJ wont make you win against deadeyes, good ones dont use it that often against competent opponents anyway, the unblockable nature is needed to pressure with rifle through perma reflect, i would still prefer cursed bullet there and would even be ok if DJ was deleted from the set for that, you know pvp wise. because cursed bullet was stronger as a stealth attack as it didnt reveal unless it hit, so you could bait dodges without cost and without risk. DJ is currently just a rather week skill, nerfing it further wont change fights for most only against groups with a firebrand spamming perma reflect and maybe some mesmers running some build with tons of mirror build in.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:...As a warrior, you can easily negate 3RB (3 round burst) with the shield stance, or anything that makes you invulnerable or that blocks attacks. Furthermore, as you know, we need to hit our marked targets to actually get any malice at all.

The tools a warrior has available to counter a DE thief using DJ are not AS limited as suggested, it just that the ones that can help have little other utility and rarely on a toolbar for that reason. As example bulls rush has to be used right away on the DE thief and will help close that gap . You then have the ability to use utilities that have a nearby effect but your timing has to be bang on. Even in stealth , thief still lacks stability access. I think if there a lower ICD on things like Fear me or Stomp those might be a bit more useable as a counter by the warrior. Warrior reveal skills also exist but again are not often traited up in places like WvW because the times they can work to down a DE are often seen as not worth the slot and something like WOD all round is always better then something like mageborne tether.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:...As a warrior, you can easily negate 3RB (3 round burst) with the shield stance, or anything that makes you invulnerable or that blocks attacks. Furthermore, as you know, we need to hit our marked targets to actually get any malice at all.

if the DE is only using DJ , yes the warrior can avoid it. but you can aswell kill a warrior with just auto attacks while kiting them as DE.bulls charge has a fairly long cooldown and is the only good gap closer warrior has. rush for example is just asking for DJ and GS 3 has too low range to come even close to the DE. if i get CCed in stealth - so what? i got 25% damage reduction there + heal and its not like i dont have stunbreaks. mageborne tether is really strong if it hits when you dont have a stunbreak ready any more, else you just move away wait for the pull and stunbreak it into dodge for stealth. as soon as your pulled the pulsing reveal will stop. but i have fought warriors were i just like in the 20th encounter realised they are running mageborne tether...you usually dont get hit by burst skills and you need to get hit by them for the tether. warrior reveals are not really helpful as you would give up a utility slot for it, you probably need bullscharge to have a chance getting in range safely, you should run endure pain / last stand to tank through the TRB or what ever spamm without them you cant even get close to the deadeye so you wont profit from the reveals. if i die to a single warrior and yes i have then i have failed, because the odds are just so bad for the warrior even getting a hit in. when i was playing with berserk they could at least oneshot me. now i can still oneshot them with valkyre but i havent seen many warrior deal 21k damage with their burst - i mean i know just one that does but i can kill him with a low malice backstab ( hes pretty good at avoiding that tho, has good movement :3 )

@MUDse.7623 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:...As a warrior, you can easily negate 3RB (3 round burst) with the shield stance, or anything that makes you invulnerable or that blocks attacks. Furthermore, as you know, we need to hit our marked targets to actually get any malice at all.

EDIT i meant to say a trait like Enchanmnet collapse or Revenge counter gnerally more used then mageborne. That said I HAVE used STOMP to ward off a thief setting up a backstab but success rate low and it has a high ICD so the theif can just reset.