Bring Back GW1 Heroes Feature?

If you played the original Guild Wars, you may remember you could fill your party with variously classed NPCs. In Eye of the North though, a new mechanic was brought in where you could add your other playable characters to your party. I thought this was a really neat idea and enjoyed the feature very much. I got to use all the characters I'd put together over the years at once with all their respective builds and gear. In addition to it just being a neat thing to see, it was also useful to me as a more casual player. I didn't have very many friends into mmo's at the time and still do not, but I still like to play even if it's usually by myself. The heroes came in handy as a reliable fallback for when I got stuck on a particularly difficult story quest. I'd love to see the feature return someday but worry at how it might affect server functionality and bog things down. Maybe if you could only use them in dungeons and fractals? I noticed lately that finding parties for dungeons especially seems difficult. I'd love to hear others thoughts on the feature especially if you weren't a fan of it and if you have thoughts on why it couldn't work in GW2.

In my opinion, it shouldn't work in GW 2 if it is to maintain healthy population. It would both mark the game's decline and actually lead to it.Right now there are enough players in the game to team up with, so let's enjoy real buddies while we can.

Eh, all that ai to incorporate... If you haven't noticed, gw2 ai is not the brightest. A good ai foundation from the get go is what made heros a realistic addition in gw1.

It's actually pretty amazing how "smart" gw1 ai is. Some hero roles are actually even competitive with human players because the ai is "all-seeing".https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Foe_behaviorhttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_behavior

@Airdive.2613 said:In my opinion, it shouldn't work in GW 2 if it is to maintain healthy population. It would both mark the game's decline and actually lead to it.Right now there are enough players in the game to team up with, so let's enjoy real buddies while we can.

Gw1 didn't die because of heros...in fact it's alive today because of them.

Just bring back the heroes control. With the flags and all. Don't care about builds and gear I just want Marjorie to go fight or revive me instead of standing 15 meters away staring blankly at my downed body.

@Justine.6351 said:

@"Airdive.2613" said:In my opinion, it

shouldn't

work in GW 2 if it is to maintain healthy population. It would both mark the game's decline and actually lead to it.Right now there are enough players in the game to team up with, so let's enjoy real buddies while we can.

Yet it is mostly "solo-alive", because of heroes. Quite a different feeling from an actual MMORPG.I'm all for implementing heroes - when GW 2 is ready to die and it's difficult to complete the majority of its content. It's too early for this now, because there are players everywhere.

@"Airdive.2613" said:...so let's enjoy real buddies while we can.

"Enjoy" is highly subjective, But I do agree with the rest of your point.

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:In my opinion, it

shouldn't

work in GW 2 if it is to maintain healthy population. It would both mark the game's decline and actually lead to it.Right now there are enough players in the game to team up with, so let's enjoy real buddies while we can.

That was why I was thinking maybe just for story or dungeon instances

I agree to a point with this.

I would love to have seen heroes from the get go. but that only worked in GW1 because of local zones. now that is something else.

Within instances I think even some form of "summoning stone" would be useful for players like me. I am not too social and although I am happy to chat to people in game and I like to! I am anxious about trying any content like raids or fractals, In fact, I only ever played 1 dungeon. Whereas in GW1 I could play whatever I wanted and although it wasn't the most efficient way, it was still solo-able. Before anyone says my reasoning as I shouldn't be playing an MMORPG then, I disagree, there are certain aspects of the MMORPG evolving world and player base that I like.

So some form of control within stories like flagging / reviving and even some form of summoning stone wouldn't be too detrimental to the game.

@carrolltech.9215 said:I am anxious about trying any content like raids or fractals, In fact, I only ever played 1 dungeon. Whereas in GW1 I could play whatever I wanted and although it wasn't the most efficient way, it was still solo-able. Before anyone says my reasoning as I shouldn't be playing an MMORPG then, I disagree, there are certain aspects of the MMORPG evolving world and player base that I like.

I hear you. A lot of players have a similar problem, really, myself included.The thing is, it may not seem like it, but the game is being monitored by the developers, and the developers can see the numbers. I'm 100% sure we would see changes if the numbers weren't right. That reasoning, combined with my own experience of successfully completing dungeons (almost) whenever I feel like it, tells me that things are fine from a purely statistical viewpoint.I'm also 100% sure that heroes will work in GW 2, but there are lots of implications, and personally, I wouldn't risk doing this to a completely healthy game that is GW 2 right now.

So they should add even more mechanic that do not encourage group play? More asocial mechanics?

NO!

@"Justine.6351" said:Eh, all that ai to incorporate... If you haven't noticed, gw2 ai is not the brightest. A good ai foundation from the get go is what made heros a realistic addition in gw1.

It's actually pretty amazing how "smart" gw1 ai is. Some hero roles are actually even competitive with human players because the ai is "all-seeing".https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Foe_behaviorhttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_behavior

Yeah, I have had too many situations where the NPCs in your group during story content are just standing there, watching you do everything. The most recent was yesterday, replaying the PoF story on a new character, I was reviving people after fighting Balthazar's herald for the second time, and all of the NPCs in my group just stood there. I know they can help heal, because they all jumped in on the last person. It's not a big deal, but it shows how bad the AI would be with the hero system in place.

@Poseidon.3852 said:So they should add even more mechanic that do not encourage group play? More asocial mechanics?

NO!

Not everyone wants group play, not all the time anyway.

@Klowdy.3126 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Eh, all that ai to incorporate... If you haven't noticed, gw2 ai is not the brightest. A good ai foundation from the get go is what made heros a realistic addition in gw1.

It's actually pretty amazing how "smart" gw1 ai is. Some hero roles are actually even competitive with human players because the ai is "all-seeing".

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Foe_behavior

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_behavior

Yeah I agree with this, They AI would need a serious overhaul if any intelligence was needed. They managed it in GW1 though and from what I understand the development is much more modular in GW2, So I cant see why they couldn't do it eventually.

@Dreadshow.9320 said:Just bring back the heroes control. With the flags and all. Don't care about builds and gear I just want Marjorie to go fight or revive me instead of standing 15 meters away staring blankly at my downed body.

LOL this......

@Airdive.2613 said:In my opinion, it shouldn't work in GW 2 if it is to maintain healthy population. It would both mark the game's decline and actually lead to it.Right now there are enough players in the game to team up with, so let's enjoy real buddies while we can.

This.

I felt that heroes were the beginning of the end for gw1.

It would be cool if we could choose which heroes we take into missions. Our heroes in gw2 should have normalized abilities instead of stuff that just serves the plot. Anyone remember Marjorie’s necro bone bridges? Wt f was that. Even simple henchmen commands like stay, guard, and attack would be very useful.

The main problem is the combat system, GW1 was about static gameplay and some tiny bit of prioritization by the AI. The AI of Guild Wars 1 was actually dumb, despite some people thinking that GW1 AI was actually smart, it wasn't. It was effective because the combat was static and didn't require a lot of movement (at times, no movement at all) and the best thing for an AI was instant cast skills, like interrupts, because the AI had much better reflexes than the average human. But it was also interrupting mostly random skills, wasting the interrupts.

Guild Wars 2 is all about moving and of course expert skill usage, in Guild Wars 1 the AI had to deal with only 8 skills and it couldn't even weapon swap to another set to get more energy or health. In Guild Wars 2 the AI would have to swap weapons just to be effective at playing the game. Add dodging, your personal healing skill and LOADS of active skills to consider and you can see that Guild Wars 2 is way way more complex than Guild Wars 1, it terms of what the AI (or even a player) has to do at any given moment.

A simple Warrior has to consider ~16 clicks, disregarding banners and transforms. That's double the amount of actions to consider than in Guild Wars 1.An Elementalist has at minimum 29 clicks, that's 3.6 times more actions than in Guild Wars 1.Add the active movement to move out of red circles and of course dodging and you can see why the complexity of Guild Wars 2 is so much higher than anything seen in Guild Wars 1, that making a good AI for it would be, if not impossible, really hard to implement.

@maddoctor.2738 said:The main problem is the combat system, GW1 was about static gameplay and some tiny bit of prioritization by the AI...

It's only a problem if you try to simulate human behaviour, and why would you want to?Remember stuff like Trahearne's sick multi flesh golem summon or Braham's neverending protective dome. Give a particular NPC several such abilities, make sure they work as intended, and you're good.

(edited for poor Trahearne :'( )

Don't forget; the Devs scaled back the effectiveness of the AI for NPCs in instances some time ago, because they did not want players relying too much on the NPCs.

Thus, doubtful they would want to add Heroes/Henchies/Mercenaries to GW2. Of course, anything is possible.

Good luck.

@Airdive.2613 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The main problem is the combat system, GW1 was about static gameplay and some tiny bit of prioritization by the AI...

Both of those abilities are useless. Braham is using his dome at any given point without any thought and at times he makes thing worse instead of helping. And Trahearne's ability mostly created fodder to block attacks as their actual combat usefulness was close to zero. Meaning, both of these would be fairly weak in a real fight. Also, do remember that most allied NPCs are immortal in story instances, either they have the "Determined" buff that makes them invulnerable, as is the case with Braham, or they are Legendary status with so many millions of hp that they could well be immortal (like Trahearne)

You can find some info about how dumb the AI of GW1 actually was here: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_behaviorThe important bits from that link:

while avoiding AI disadvantages (inability to use certain skills, lack of planning ability, not understanding positioning).All essential to survive in Guild Wars 2, but secondary things to survive in Guild Wars 1, andHeroes do not coordinate their actions with each other. This may result in redundant skill usage.Like two Brahams using their reflection dome at the same time. And of courseHeroes have no concept of the danger of hexes and conditions, or the usefulness of enchantments. They will remove these seemingly at random.

The reason all those do not exist in the AI of Guild Wars 1 is because they are also really hard to implement. Guild Wars 1 AI was doing things mostly at random, without any actual thought, it appeared to be intelligent because the combat system was so simplistic that it made it seem like it had intelligence.

If you remove the invulnerability from Guild Wars 2 NPCs then no number of skills like Braham's protective dome and Trahearne's minion summoning could make them useful. If you keep the invulnerability and make the NPCs deal more damage then you obviously risk making all content really easy as the player stands in a corner and watches their invulnerable friends finish the content for them.

This would go against the whole premise of an MMORPG, which GW1 was not, this would maybe only work for story missions, add some npcs you travel with or meet along the way, otherwise this would derail the entire game.

@"carrolltech.9215" said:Within instances I think even some form of "summoning stone" would be useful for players like me.Something like this already exists, the Sunspear Paragon Support from S4E1 and the Cannon in a Box from S4E3 are basically just that. You can even use them in fractals although they are consumables so you better stack up if you want to use them, they also have a 30 minute cooldown so there's that. Personally I find them rather useless thanks to their various limitations, if it were up to me they would have been gizmos with a much shorter cooldown (I'd prefer 90 seconds starting at the moment you summon the "minion" like the Rock Dog from the Ogre rune).

I suppose the Field Tech Turret system would also be a tremendous help for you if it had better QOL and weren't so ridiculously restricted (in multiple ways).

heck, you can be part of 5 guilds simultaneously, no other MMOs have done this

if you still need dumb AI NPCs (just look at how stupid they are in story missions) to follow you around, then there's something wrong with the guild communities you joined or you are not engaging with them

Companions are hardly a community building addition to any game. One of the big PvE features has always been the personal loot. Something that was supposed to negate the fighting over treasure and the need to low man or solo instances for increased loot. They wanted us to go and play together rather than hide in our solo instances. Seems rather counter productive if you keep this idea in mind. It could be a thing for story instances and possibly story dungeons but that's about. They are going to have a hard time balancing AI companions in any case given our more active and action based combat system. The line between making companions useless and making so strong that they do everything for you is a fine one. We have seen multiple changes to the existing NPCs already for this very reason.

Honestly, I don't see how having up to 4 additional ranger pets (sorry, "heroes") running around will help anybody. I don’t think allied AI can keep up with the design of GW2.