Would you consider Necromancer the most “turbulent” profession? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Would you consider Necromancer the most “turbulent” profession?

Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

In terms of balancing, as a on-and-off player since launch (Warrior main, not Necro) I would have to say “Yes”. Definitely the one that Anet has the most issue with “nailing it” just right: it is a constant roller coaster from overpowered like nuts (PoF launch) to hover in between mediocrity-to-underpowered.

There just seems to be something inherent to the core design of the class that prevents a happy medium like most of the other classes, wouldn’t you say?

Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

Comments

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You nailed it, the issue of the necromancer is that in GW2 he stand out as "non conventionnal". Where other professions have tools that are more or less normalized with each other, the necromancer's tools are mainly different.

    The issue lie here, the necromancer is to different and designed to counter what's "common" among other professions. Be it the defense (chunk of health point where other profession bet mainly on avoidance and block), the offense (Extra damage proc on ICD where other professions mainly bet on damage intensity) or the support (weakening the foes where other professions strengthen their allies).

    Everything the necromancer do is at odd with other professions. This make it difficult to balance against other professions (because he is pushed as a hard counter for many of their mechanisms) and at the same time against the environment (because most of it's tools that are extremly effective against players are simply negligible against the environment).

    Because anet gave a lot of boon gen to other professions, PvP and WvW became a boon spam feist that anet didn't expected. And since they want the necromancer to counter boons, since HoT they gave him more and more boon corruption to a point where it broke the game at the beginning of PoF.

    Another bad thing is that anet chose to concentrate a lot of different effect on single skills and with traits that proc new effect on top of specific effects, it easily give a feeling of being overloaded. In PvE this doesn't matter since mobs and boss don't even feel half of the soft conditions that a necromancer apply without limit, however against a player necromancer's skills can easily be felt as if a colony of weakening effect decided to come on a him with a single wave of the necromancer's sleeve.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    E-specs Are good core Is trash. Core weapons Are weaker then other proffesions, thats why they boost e-specs..
    You know something Is Wrong if only way how to win 1v1 Is hidding And using terrain. Because class alone Is weak And ultra simple

    Jokaurene

  • Swamurabi.7890Swamurabi.7890 Member ✭✭✭

    I can only remember three times when Necro was OP.

    Beta, Dhuumfire, and PoF Scourge. Each was quickly nerfed into trash tier. Necro has spent so little time at the top of the list that I'd hardly call it a roller coaster.

    sPvP: Necros have always been in the focus the Necro meta. No other class gets this treatment. Even scourge that counters melee is countered by range.
    PvE: Necros have spent so long as trash tier that we've stopped believing that Anet actually listens to the Necro forum.

    WvW: Necro has always been top tier. The reason is because in WvW a Necro gets the baby sitter it lacks in sPvP so they don't have to worry about being focused. The Necro also is used because of the all the AoE Necros can drop, skills that hit multiple players in WvW but don't do much against single target bosses in PvE.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    I can only remember three times when Necro was OP.

    Beta, Dhuumfire, and PoF Scourge. Each was quickly nerfed into trash tier. Necro has spent so little time at the top of the list that I'd hardly call it a roller coaster.

    It's more like:
    Beta, Dhuumfire, minionmaster (nightmare tower), Spectral master (no ICD on LF gen from spectral stances), HoT launch (blind chillmaster), HoT lich (infinite bleeding minions), PoF scourge, PoF epidemic (always was there but first time really used extensively).

    sPvP: Necros have always been in the focus the Necro meta. No other class gets this treatment. Even scourge that counters melee is countered by range.

    The necromancer is focused because he can be the ban of a team that overlook him. If it was really a bother to necromancers, PvP team would make necromancers build bunkerish and just take their opponent's aggro. However, such builds don't really have much threat so they would probably just be ignored. Necromancers are focused because they can screw with your boons and that can be really critical in spvp.

    PvE: Necros have spent so long as trash tier that we've stopped believing that Anet actually listens to the Necro forum.

    I think that it's there that the rollercoaster is but only since HoT.

    WvW: Necro has always been top tier. The reason is because in WvW a Necro gets the baby sitter it lacks in sPvP so they don't have to worry about being focused. The Necro also is used because of the all the AoE Necros can drop, skills that hit multiple players in WvW but don't do much against single target bosses in PvE.

    The necromancer have always been meta there because he can quickly screw with the boon of it's foes and it's proceless to do that just before an impact I wan't count the number of zerg I've seen destroyed in the vanilla game due to a single well of corruption. With HoT and PoF, sure the way zergs fight each other changed but the value of the necromancer's boon corruption is still great which is why the necromancer is still meta there.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    sPvP: Necros have always been in the focus the Necro meta. No other class gets this treatment. Even scourge that counters melee is countered by range.

    The necromancer is focused because he can be the ban of a team that overlook him. If it was really a bother to necromancers, PvP team would make necromancers build bunkerish and just take their opponent's aggro. However, such builds don't really have much threat so they would probably just be ignored. Necromancers are focused because they can screw with your boons and that can be really critical in spvp.

    Necro is Targeted first because he have 0 LF so no defence. Ez Kill. 2 stuns and burst.
    I agree with the rest

    Jokaurene

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Necro has not enjoyed the same ease of balance that Warrior has for a few reasons:
    1. Many of the skills stack in intensity (bleed, poison, etc.) or up-time (blind, chill, etc.) with more Necromancers while other professions lose some efficiency when stacked because their boons and other AoE skills are more easily capped.
    2. Debuffing players is a lot more powerful than debuffing a boss mob. What seems under-powered on a boss (100% chill up-time) is over-powered against playing characters. Necro is heavy on debuff skills so that just makes the gap in effectiveness that much wider between PvE and PvP/WvW.
    3. Necromancer tends to get fancy new mechanics that do not have as much practical testing as other professions; e.g., shroud, marks, wells, Dhuumfire, Deathly Chill, barriers, minions...
    4. An uncertain "role" for the profession, though roles officially do not exist, has been to be a debuffer, a low mobility and difficult to kill in melee combat profession, a pet (MM) profession, and now a spike-defense (barrier) profession. Many of us in this sub-forum wonder what the plan is for Necromancer at Arenanet because sometimes it is hard to tell from the results.

  • Swamurabi.7890Swamurabi.7890 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    The necromancer have always been meta there because he can quickly screw with the boon of it's foes and it's proceless to do that just before an impact I wan't count the number of zerg I've seen destroyed in the vanilla game due to a single well of corruption. With HoT and PoF, sure the way zergs fight each other changed but the value of the necromancer's boon corruption is still great which is why the necromancer is still meta there.

    Necros have only been part of the boon hate since PoF, because before scourge the boon apply greatly outpaced the boon strip/convert. Sure there was the corrupt boon pinsniping, but it wasn't something that everyone did.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    The necromancer have always been meta there because he can quickly screw with the boon of it's foes and it's proceless to do that just before an impact I wan't count the number of zerg I've seen destroyed in the vanilla game due to a single well of corruption. With HoT and PoF, sure the way zergs fight each other changed but the value of the necromancer's boon corruption is still great which is why the necromancer is still meta there.

    Necros have only been part of the boon hate since PoF, because before scourge the boon apply greatly outpaced the boon strip/convert. Sure there was the corrupt boon pinsniping, but it wasn't something that everyone did.

    Only necro corrupt boons, not "everyone". That's why necromancer was meta. The vanilla WvW meta have always been "GWEN" which stand for Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist and Necromancer. Necromancer would have never been part of this meta if it wasn't for it's ability to corrupt boons.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    sPvP: Necros have always been in the focus the Necro meta. No other class gets this treatment. Even scourge that counters melee is countered by range.

    The necromancer is focused because he can be the ban of a team that overlook him. If it was really a bother to necromancers, PvP team would make necromancers build bunkerish and just take their opponent's aggro. However, such builds don't really have much threat so they would probably just be ignored. Necromancers are focused because they can screw with your boons and that can be really critical in spvp.

    Necro is Targeted first because he have 0 LF so no defence. Ez Kill. 2 stuns and burst.
    I agree with the rest

    However, it's easy to make a spectral build and be hard to kill even without life force at the beginning of a fight. You just need to slot spectral mastery instead of vital persistence and take some spectral skills. The value of the build itself isn't great but you won't be killed by 2 stuns and a burst.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    You nailed it, the issue of the necromancer is that in GW2 he stand out as "non conventionnal". Where other professions have tools that are more or less normalized with each other, the necromancer's tools are mainly different.

    The issue lie here, the necromancer is to different and designed to counter what's "common" among other professions. Be it the defense (chunk of health point where other profession bet mainly on avoidance and block), the offense (Extra damage proc on ICD where other professions mainly bet on damage intensity) or the support (weakening the foes where other professions strengthen their allies).

    Everything the necromancer do is at odd with other professions. This make it difficult to balance against other professions (because he is pushed as a hard counter for many of their mechanisms) and at the same time against the environment (because most of it's tools that are extremly effective against players are simply negligible against the environment).

    Because anet gave a lot of boon gen to other professions, PvP and WvW became a boon spam feist that anet didn't expected. And since they want the necromancer to counter boons, since HoT they gave him more and more boon corruption to a point where it broke the game at the beginning of PoF.

    Another bad thing is that anet chose to concentrate a lot of different effect on single skills and with traits that proc new effect on top of specific effects, it easily give a feeling of being overloaded. In PvE this doesn't matter since mobs and boss don't even feel half of the soft conditions that a necromancer apply without limit, however against a player necromancer's skills can easily be felt as if a colony of weakening effect decided to come on a him with a single wave of the necromancer's sleeve.

    Nailed it. And all subsequent posts.

    Boon overloading is the core of the problem and has been for years. It's also why necro has been weak in PvE; mobs generally have no boons or don't face a big enough consequence for getting boons corrupted (rather than stripped), as most major encounters ignore things like weakness, chill, and don't heal or ignore the effects of poison.

    Without necros, things quickly get out of hand with boons - it's literally a second set of armor's worth of stats and a bunch of extra free stuff on a number of professions. It's why they're focused down. The reasoning (in sPvP) behind why they're focused down early on and suppressed is because they start at their weakest point and are not very influential if not allowed to gain resources. If they get LF, they can turn games around. So why give them the chance? It's also why good teams will and have hisotrically do/done what they can to support a necro early on to get him or her over the hump.

    Without the state of boons being as they are, necro could be made a lot more consistent along with the rest of the game. Until they change it, though, there's really not much they can fix about the necromancer without it being wildly overtuned if buffed.

    Most of the PvE problems are encounter-based rather than overarching balance. It'd be like if there were bosses out there which only dealt unblockable attacks (RIP guardian and even ele), ignored damage immunity effects (RIP warrior), and/or ignored stealth and caused dodges to fail (RIP thief). If they made encounters resemble the PvP modes more, necro would be generally seen as way better in PvE than it currently is, which is a pretty vocal base of players who don't realize its power and influence in the PvP modes.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • alez.2137alez.2137 Member ✭✭

    In PVE terms I used to play scourge. I created a berserk to see how it works and meh. Its pretty ridiculous that since first attemp Im doing like 5k more DPS with the warrior.

    I see it pretty obvious because you look at the skills warrior has, 6xbleeding, 8xbleeding, etc. With necro its theorically possible but not realistic to apply that much bleeding (6) from a single skill (you depend on ppl not cleansing because you are self applying bleed to transfer to boss). With the berserk you just press a button and its done.

    I think in the comparaison between warrior condi and necro condi PVE anet should look at number of condi stacks and rebalance.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    • Dhumfire - overpowered - nerfed
    • Cele/Marauder Signet Corrupts - probably the most balanced necro build ever - became useless on HoT release because of powercreep and signet gm-trait rework
    • Marauder Power Reaper - solid on Hot release - nerfed (stability nerfed, speed of shadows nerfed, power creep of other classes)
    • Mercenary Reaper - overpowered - amulet removed, chill nerfed
    • Condi Scourge - overpowered - nerfed
  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    sPvP: Necros have always been in the focus the Necro meta. No other class gets this treatment. Even scourge that counters melee is countered by range.

    The necromancer is focused because he can be the ban of a team that overlook him. If it was really a bother to necromancers, PvP team would make necromancers build bunkerish and just take their opponent's aggro. However, such builds don't really have much threat so they would probably just be ignored. Necromancers are focused because they can screw with your boons and that can be really critical in spvp.

    Necro is Targeted first because he have 0 LF so no defence. Ez Kill. 2 stuns and burst.
    I agree with the rest

    However, it's easy to make a spectral build and be hard to kill even without life force at the beginning of a fight. You just need to slot spectral mastery instead of vital persistence and take some spectral skills. The value of the build itself isn't great but you won't be killed by 2 stuns and a burst.

    I don't know what spvp rank you have. And I rarely play spvp myself. But I can tell you why necro gets focussed in wvw roaming groups:
    It's the easiest to kill target even if it's full bunker build with full lifeforce.

    It has no evades, no mobility, no invulns.
    And is very weak to cc and ranged attacks.

    So if you kill an easy target, you get number advantage, and then it's more likely to kill the whole enemy group.

    If you wanna know why necro is so weak, watch crinn's newest video.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:

    sPvP: Necros have always been in the focus the Necro meta. No other class gets this treatment. Even scourge that counters melee is countered by range.

    This part is a bit untrue back in the day necros could get away with doing what ever they wanted heck i even ran power shrould necro back in the day which back then 2-3 shot people consistently and you never heard people cry about it.

  • Swamurabi.7890Swamurabi.7890 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:

    sPvP: Necros have always been in the focus the Necro meta. No other class gets this treatment. Even scourge that counters melee is countered by range.

    This part is a bit untrue back in the day necros could get away with doing what ever they wanted heck i even ran power shrould necro back in the day which back then 2-3 shot people consistently and you never heard people cry about it.

    Necros in sPvP from day one have been asking for better in combat mobility and more stun breaks because of the focus the Necro meta. It was only because of Nos that Necros even were played at the highest levels.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:

    sPvP: Necros have always been in the focus the Necro meta. No other class gets this treatment. Even scourge that counters melee is countered by range.

    This part is a bit untrue back in the day necros could get away with doing what ever they wanted heck i even ran power shrould necro back in the day which back then 2-3 shot people consistently and you never heard people cry about it.

    Necros in sPvP from day one have been asking for better in combat mobility and more stun breaks because of the focus the Necro meta. It was only because of Nos that Necros even were played at the highest levels.

    oh no i dont doubt that but im just saying there was a point in time where they were not always focused first and thats for a simple reason. Because back in the day boons were not as out of hand as they are now. Back then it was hard to hold 20+ might to day 25 might easy is a standard across almost every profession and if you cant get it on your own 1 other player can get you there with no real effort at all.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem with necro is how in PvE it has evolved to become a relatively "easy" high-performance class.
    In PvP necro can't be an "easy" high-performance class because it's always been high risk high reward. Yes, necros get trained first. Not just because they don't have a million escapes, but because it's the highest teamfight pressure class in the game.

    And attempts to make necro easy in pvp just make it insanely OP.

    Also pretty hard to balance the game if PvE ignores half the combat mechanics in said game. Range, boon corrupt, condi management, advantage to high base hp / barrier / ..., being reliant on self buffing, ... are all non-existent in most of the PvE meta. No suprise necro drops off considering condi management, boon corrupt, self buffing and mix between sturdy and high damage are some of its best tools.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    If you wanna know why necro is so weak, watch crinn's newest video.

    I usually only agree with some things crinn says but in this case he is pretty spot on.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    While the discussion has wandered from the original topic, I agree Necro makes a great +1 in a team fight but I do not have many good experiences with other players properly protecting me from CC, pew pew, bursts, and other counters to the profession. Necro provides great condi pressure when not dead so a good team will run interference when the Necro is focused or use the Necro as bait for a burst.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    since every necro meta build has been nerfed hard, the answer is yes.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    If you wanna know why necro is so weak, watch crinn's newest video.

    While watching the video I found myself constantly thinking "no, just no...".

    I have a hard time explaining why, because the video ignores so many mechanical characteristics of the game, it would take hours for me to sum this up into a (very long) posting.

    Chaith and Trevor Boyer gave some good explanations in the related thread in the PvP subforum.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/50785/classes-need-to-scale-evenly-with-skill

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    In terms of balancing, as a on-and-off player since launch (Warrior main, not Necro) I would have to say “Yes”. Definitely the one that Anet has the most issue with “nailing it” just right: it is a constant roller coaster from overpowered like nuts (PoF launch) to hover in between mediocrity-to-underpowered.

    There just seems to be something inherent to the core design of the class that prevents a happy medium like most of the other classes, wouldn’t you say?

    When exactly necro has been UP?

    :2-4 necros per match in pvp
    20-30 necros out of 50 players in wvw meta
    tanky as hell in pve
    works in raid and more

    The profession has never been UP since 2013 when they started with Dhuumfire patch and people were spamming 4-5 necro per match....look how many play necro in gw2...where the hell do you see UP?....yeah they constantly cry for OP buffs while being OP af already but that has been the case since launch

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Step foot outside of PvP for once and you’ll see.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    If you wanna know why necro is so weak, watch crinn's newest video.

    While watching the video I found myself constantly thinking "no, just no...".

    I have a hard time explaining why, because the video ignores so many mechanical characteristics of the game, it would take hours for me to sum this up into a (very long) posting.

    Chaith and Trevor Boyer gave some good explanations in the related thread in the PvP subforum.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/50785/classes-need-to-scale-evenly-with-skill

    I read most of it. And I think they are wrong. They give examples like kiting and positioning is important. But that's the same for all other classes.
    Sure if played very well and babysitted by a support, scourge can carry. But if you have no support or a really bad one, you should loose fights against all classes when played by an equally high skilled player.

    And that's the assumption you have to have when thinking about crinn's video.
    2 equally high skilled players fighting each other. That's when crinn's video kicks in and is exactly on point. Maybe not all of ity but most of it.
    Active defense is superior to innate defense.

    But in pve all this doesn't matter. Enemy's aren't intelligent. Bosses follow the tank. Thats why innate defense is much stronger in pve. And that's why necro doesn't get more DPS output

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    In terms of balancing, as a on-and-off player since launch (Warrior main, not Necro) I would have to say “Yes”. Definitely the one that Anet has the most issue with “nailing it” just right: it is a constant roller coaster from overpowered like nuts (PoF launch) to hover in between mediocrity-to-underpowered.

    There just seems to be something inherent to the core design of the class that prevents a happy medium like most of the other classes, wouldn’t you say?

    When exactly necro has been UP?

    :2-4 necros per match in pvp
    20-30 necros out of 50 players in wvw meta
    tanky as hell in pve
    works in raid and more

    The profession has never been UP since 2013 when they started with Dhuumfire patch and people were spamming 4-5 necro per match....look how many play necro in gw2...where the hell do you see UP?....yeah they constantly cry for OP buffs while being OP af already but that has been the case since launch

    Let's keep to the fact:

    • PvP: Until anet started to overload the necromancer with boon corruption after HoT patch, the necromancer always hoovered between being "UP" and gimmicky builds. The necromancer was a popular character for it's thematic but not for it's performances.
    • WvW: The necromancer have always been meta in this gamemode but the "20-30 necros" thing only ever happen for PoF and it's been seriously nerfed since then. However, despite it's popularity in zerg, the necromancer have almost always been acknoledged as a poor roamer in WvW.
    • Open world PvE: being tanky in PvE have never been an advantage for any profession I don't understand why you would even put this here. The real advantage of the necromancer in PvE was it's staff which allowed him to easily tag mobs and make money.
    • Dungeon: Necromancers are and have always been poor dungeoneers. Alongside with rangers they were widely acknoledge as a liability in dungeons.
    • Fractal: Necromancers started to have a niche in this gamemode after HoT when anet started to put instability and more accurately the instability that grant boons to the mobs in fractals. Before that and even outside of this specific case the necromancer isn't seen as a powerfull profession in fractals.
    • Raid: Necromancers are acknowledged as the bottom of the barrel in raids, yes they work, but in expert hands, raids are doable with other professions without even putting an armor.

    But we can also look at the elementalist history in comparison:

    • PvP: Until anet removed the celestial amulet, elementalists were everywhere in PvP, dominating the gamemode.
    • WvW: Being the GWEN meta or the Pirateship meta, the elementalist was in a very good spot there. Outside of that, the elementalist was seen as a very good roamer up to HoT.
    • Openworld PvE: Same as the necromancer, the elementalist benefited a lot form it's ability to easily tag mobs in this gamemode. To be fair the benefit even more of this ability than the necromancer since their aoe are dealing damage over a "long time" which can be an advantage over necromancer's mark that often don't affect the mobs that trigger them due to invulnerability.
    • Dungeon: The elementalist have been the kings of dungeons. Undisputable buffer/dps, the dungeon meta comp was 4 elementalists and 1 thief. Even now, elementalist is the best profession if you intend to make a dungeon speed run or even try to crack a solo record.
    • Fractal: Elementalists are not kings of fractals, however they've been a favored pick since fractals launch. The elementalist's versatility and damages are quite usefull in fractals.
    • Raid: Until very recently elementalists were acknoledged as the single highest dps profession in raids leading them to be the favored pick for a dps spot. This spot of single best dps have been threaten 3 time: first by condi ranger, 2nd by epidemic scourge and now by power deadeye. Both condi ranger and epi scourge didn't last long on the spot, well maybe to long in the elementalist's eyes but objectively not that long.

    Those are facts.
    The reality is that the necromancer had to rely on gimmicky builds to exist outside of WvW until now and those gimmicky builds never lasted long. The reality is that the necromancer just don't have any possibility to reach other profession's dps in PvE, their support isn't needed and they've been used in raid only for their ability to cleave mobs. The reality is that the necromancer isn't the most played profession in the game, it's in 5th place behind guardian (1st), warrior(2nd), elementalist(3rd) and ranger(4th).

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    In terms of balancing, as a on-and-off player since launch (Warrior main, not Necro) I would have to say “Yes”. Definitely the one that Anet has the most issue with “nailing it” just right: it is a constant roller coaster from overpowered like nuts (PoF launch) to hover in between mediocrity-to-underpowered.

    There just seems to be something inherent to the core design of the class that prevents a happy medium like most of the other classes, wouldn’t you say?

    When exactly necro has been UP?

    :2-4 necros per match in pvp
    20-30 necros out of 50 players in wvw meta
    tanky as hell in pve
    works in raid and more

    The profession has never been UP since 2013 when they started with Dhuumfire patch and people were spamming 4-5 necro per match....look how many play necro in gw2...where the hell do you see UP?....yeah they constantly cry for OP buffs while being OP af already but that has been the case since launch

    Let's keep to the fact:

    • PvP: Until anet started to overload the necromancer with boon corruption after HoT patch, the necromancer always hoovered between being "UP" and gimmicky builds. The necromancer was a popular character for it's thematic but not for it's performances.
    • WvW: The necromancer have always been meta in this gamemode but the "20-30 necros" thing only ever happen for PoF and it's been seriously nerfed since then. However, despite it's popularity in zerg, the necromancer have almost always been acknoledged as a poor roamer in WvW.
    • Open world PvE: being tanky in PvE have never been an advantage for any profession I don't understand why you would even put this here. The real advantage of the necromancer in PvE was it's staff which allowed him to easily tag mobs and make money.
    • Dungeon: Necromancers are and have always been poor dungeoneers. Alongside with rangers they were widely acknoledge as a liability in dungeons.
    • Fractal: Necromancers started to have a niche in this gamemode after HoT when anet started to put instability and more accurately the instability that grant boons to the mobs in fractals. Before that and even outside of this specific case the necromancer isn't seen as a powerfull profession in fractals.
    • Raid: Necromancers are acknowledged as the bottom of the barrel in raids, yes they work, but in expert hands, raids are doable with other professions without even putting an armor.

    But we can also look at the elementalist history in comparison:

    • PvP: Until anet removed the celestial amulet, elementalists were everywhere in PvP, dominating the gamemode.
    • WvW: Being the GWEN meta or the Pirateship meta, the elementalist was in a very good spot there. Outside of that, the elementalist was seen as a very good roamer up to HoT.
    • Openworld PvE: Same as the necromancer, the elementalist benefited a lot form it's ability to easily tag mobs in this gamemode. To be fair the benefit even more of this ability than the necromancer since their aoe are dealing damage over a "long time" which can be an advantage over necromancer's mark that often don't affect the mobs that trigger them due to invulnerability.
    • Dungeon: The elementalist have been the kings of dungeons. Undisputable buffer/dps, the dungeon meta comp was 4 elementalists and 1 thief. Even now, elementalist is the best profession if you intend to make a dungeon speed run or even try to crack a solo record.
    • Fractal: Elementalists are not kings of fractals, however they've been a favored pick since fractals launch. The elementalist's versatility and damages are quite usefull in fractals.
    • Raid: Until very recently elementalists were acknoledged as the single highest dps profession in raids leading them to be the favored pick for a dps spot. This spot of single best dps have been threaten 3 time: first by condi ranger, 2nd by epidemic scourge and now by power deadeye. Both condi ranger and epi scourge didn't last long on the spot, well maybe to long in the elementalist's eyes but objectively not that long.

    Those are facts.
    The reality is that the necromancer had to rely on gimmicky builds to exist outside of WvW until now and those gimmicky builds never lasted long. The reality is that the necromancer just don't have any possibility to reach other profession's dps in PvE, their support isn't needed and they've been used in raid only for their ability to cleave mobs. The reality is that the necromancer isn't the most played profession in the game, it's in 5th place behind guardian (1st), warrior(2nd), elementalist(3rd) and ranger(4th).

    Pretending reaper and scourge aren't played by a LOT of casuals for being very effective, tanky and easy in PvE. Huge potential to self buff and cleave while very forgiving for tanking hits; often advertised for exactly that. High end PvE had epi-meta on as much bosses as weaver meta for a pretty long time. Necro is a fairly weak solo roamer; but small groups with necros were and are very powerful. Who on earth even uses STAFF in openworld PvE? It's a clear PvP / WvW utility weapon and if you struggle to tag on necro you're doing something wrong.

    So really, the only thing you can complain about it high-end PvE meta currently. Where it's still a very safe, decent option on condi and bosses or places where epi can be used, especially if the added defenses of running necro heavy are valuable like SH and dhuum CM and to a lesser extent VG, matthias, sabetha, ...

    The ONLY thing necro a small buff for its high end pve damage on both reaper and scourge; mostly on reaper. In PvP necro has been stronger than ele for quite a long time, at best ele was necro's healbot ever since HoT. Are we going to talk about ele vs necro in pvp after PoF? Yeah I thought not.

    I agree ele hs been OP for much of this games history at least for PvE. Unless you're salty and want necro in the same place in PvE; I don't see how most of this is relevant. If you're going to state "facts", don't be this biased.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    In terms of balancing, as a on-and-off player since launch (Warrior main, not Necro) I would have to say “Yes”. Definitely the one that Anet has the most issue with “nailing it” just right: it is a constant roller coaster from overpowered like nuts (PoF launch) to hover in between mediocrity-to-underpowered.

    There just seems to be something inherent to the core design of the class that prevents a happy medium like most of the other classes, wouldn’t you say?

    When exactly necro has been UP?

    :2-4 necros per match in pvp
    20-30 necros out of 50 players in wvw meta
    tanky as hell in pve
    works in raid and more

    The profession has never been UP since 2013 when they started with Dhuumfire patch and people were spamming 4-5 necro per match....look how many play necro in gw2...where the hell do you see UP?....yeah they constantly cry for OP buffs while being OP af already but that has been the case since launch

    Let's keep to the fact:

    • PvP: Until anet started to overload the necromancer with boon corruption after HoT patch, the necromancer always hoovered between being "UP" and gimmicky builds. The necromancer was a popular character for it's thematic but not for it's performances.
    • WvW: The necromancer have always been meta in this gamemode but the "20-30 necros" thing only ever happen for PoF and it's been seriously nerfed since then. However, despite it's popularity in zerg, the necromancer have almost always been acknoledged as a poor roamer in WvW.
    • Open world PvE: being tanky in PvE have never been an advantage for any profession I don't understand why you would even put this here. The real advantage of the necromancer in PvE was it's staff which allowed him to easily tag mobs and make money.
    • Dungeon: Necromancers are and have always been poor dungeoneers. Alongside with rangers they were widely acknoledge as a liability in dungeons.
    • Fractal: Necromancers started to have a niche in this gamemode after HoT when anet started to put instability and more accurately the instability that grant boons to the mobs in fractals. Before that and even outside of this specific case the necromancer isn't seen as a powerfull profession in fractals.
    • Raid: Necromancers are acknowledged as the bottom of the barrel in raids, yes they work, but in expert hands, raids are doable with other professions without even putting an armor.

    But we can also look at the elementalist history in comparison:

    • PvP: Until anet removed the celestial amulet, elementalists were everywhere in PvP, dominating the gamemode.
    • WvW: Being the GWEN meta or the Pirateship meta, the elementalist was in a very good spot there. Outside of that, the elementalist was seen as a very good roamer up to HoT.
    • Openworld PvE: Same as the necromancer, the elementalist benefited a lot form it's ability to easily tag mobs in this gamemode. To be fair the benefit even more of this ability than the necromancer since their aoe are dealing damage over a "long time" which can be an advantage over necromancer's mark that often don't affect the mobs that trigger them due to invulnerability.
    • Dungeon: The elementalist have been the kings of dungeons. Undisputable buffer/dps, the dungeon meta comp was 4 elementalists and 1 thief. Even now, elementalist is the best profession if you intend to make a dungeon speed run or even try to crack a solo record.
    • Fractal: Elementalists are not kings of fractals, however they've been a favored pick since fractals launch. The elementalist's versatility and damages are quite usefull in fractals.
    • Raid: Until very recently elementalists were acknoledged as the single highest dps profession in raids leading them to be the favored pick for a dps spot. This spot of single best dps have been threaten 3 time: first by condi ranger, 2nd by epidemic scourge and now by power deadeye. Both condi ranger and epi scourge didn't last long on the spot, well maybe to long in the elementalist's eyes but objectively not that long.

    Those are facts.
    The reality is that the necromancer had to rely on gimmicky builds to exist outside of WvW until now and those gimmicky builds never lasted long. The reality is that the necromancer just don't have any possibility to reach other profession's dps in PvE, their support isn't needed and they've been used in raid only for their ability to cleave mobs. The reality is that the necromancer isn't the most played profession in the game, it's in 5th place behind guardian (1st), warrior(2nd), elementalist(3rd) and ranger(4th).

    Pretending reaper and scourge aren't played by a LOT of casuals for being very effective, tanky and easy in PvE. Huge potential to self buff and cleave while very forgiving for tanking hits;

    Self buff? Outside of might, necro doesn't have good boon generation

    often advertised for exactly that. High end PvE had epi-meta on as much bosses as weaver meta for a pretty long time. Necro is a fairly weak solo roamer; but small groups with necros were and are very powerful.

    Groups without necro are even stronger because necro is the easiest target to kill out of all classes.

    Who on earth even uses STAFF in openworld PvE? It's a clear PvP / WvW utility weapon and if you struggle to tag on necro you're doing something wrong.

    Like every open world player plays staff. Or at least 80%

    So really, the only thing you can complain about it high-end PvE meta currently. Where it's still a very safe, decent option on condi and bosses or places where epi can be used, especially if the added defenses of running necro heavy are valuable like SH and dhuum CM and to a lesser extent VG, matthias, sabetha, ...

    Dhuum cm doesn't matter. Boonrip is done by other classes better than by necro. I really don't understand while mesmer is allowed to keep his boonremove on auto while necro isn't allowed to do so.

    The ONLY thing necro a small buff for its high end pve damage on both reaper and scourge; mostly on reaper. In PvP necro has been stronger than ele for quite a long time, at best ele was necro's healbot ever since HoT. Are we going to talk about ele vs necro in pvp after PoF? Yeah I thought not.

    If you are a good ele player, you should never have had problem to kill necro. Even when dhuumfire bug was in the game.

    I agree ele hs been OP for much of this games history at least for PvE. Unless you're salty and want necro in the same place in PvE; I don't see how most of this is relevant. If you're going to state "facts", don't be this biased.

    I can totally understand that thiefes or Eles have more DPS than necros. Innate defenses are just much stronger in pve than they are in PvP, where they fall way behind active defenses.
    But Necro at 28 while thief is at 37 that's definetly way too much of a difference

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, trivially stacking 25 might is pretty good in solo gameplay.

    "Necro useless because it's the easiest class to kill". Yeah, downsides that are commonly associated with having MORE PRESSURE than everything else. And in PvE "we're tanky and make others tankier too but that's useless because we're not top DPS!!"

    I have NO CLUE how necro is supposed to be "weaker" than ele during HoT or PoF from a PvP point of view. In HoT necro certainly won 1v1 and eles only role was being healbot for... the necro. In PoF ele can sustain and 1v1; but it struggles to even kill a necro. Meanwhile necro was dominant meta for months. Necro is STILL meta and ele isn't even close; after what 8 months of nerfs? If you're dying on your necro perhaps you should git gud.

    So yes, PvE DPS on necro is a little bit too low. everything else is meaningless tears of players who can't manage disadvantages but expect advantages for nothing. "Easiest class to kill" when you are higher pressure than anything else. "Tankiness is meaningless" when you aren't. Meanwhile we've had what, several seasons of necros being babysit by supports on PvP and WvW just to keep them alive and let them kill everything? Yeah.

    Funnily enough, even with the higher benchmark on weaver; ele is in a worse spot in all three gamemodes than necro right now. Worse in WvW where scourges are still and forever required in much larger amounts and regardless of playstyle as long as it isn't solo roaming; solo roaming where ele is useless as well. PvP where... scourge is still meta and weaver is pretty awful at the high end. PvE where the weaver benchmark is higher, but considering differences in "support", "tankiness" and how the weaver rotation is + requires large hitbox, it's only used on a few bosses requiring high cleave or power burst DPS (KC).

    BUT MUM I'M A NECRO AND I'M SUPPOSED TO BE OUTRAGED. :trollface:
    Other than a small buff in PvE, necro needs nothing.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    . Huge potential to self buff

    o.O ok i didnt notice

    I think all people here that are "Pro necro" wants just throw some of "ultra ez class" and get some "you're good at necro you benefit from it"
    I personaly wanna try make Reaper and Core same as Scourge(no HP only mana,still transform to shroud but if you get hit its to your HP)
    Its obious that Necro is for Anet only Corruptor and cure for Boons in nowdays. But nothing more.
    I think huge problem is that first necro was Tank and other E-specs suffer from it. even if you make lot of changes Necro still remains HP sponge. And weapons are too maked to tanky class, only E-specs weapons are catching with other classes basic weapons. And overall speed too.

    And its only class that need to hide and use bugs and terrain to win with same skilled player in 1v1 ONLY class.

    Jokaurene

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    . Huge potential to self buff

    o.O ok i didnt notice

    I think all people here that are "Pro necro" wants just throw some of "ultra ez class" and get some "you're good at necro you benefit from it"
    I personaly wanna try make Reaper and Core same as Scourge(no HP only mana,still transform to shroud but if you get hit its to your HP)
    Its obious that Necro is for Anet only Corruptor and cure for Boons in nowdays. But nothing more.
    I think huge problem is that first necro was Tank and other E-specs suffer from it. even if you make lot of changes Necro still remains HP sponge. And weapons are too maked to tanky class, only E-specs weapons are catching with other classes basic weapons. And overall speed too

    When it comes to having personal modifiers which allow you to trivially do fairly high damage despite being "tanky", reaper is one of the best classes in the game. 50% crit in shroud modifier is useless for high end PvE, but pretty good for running around being tanky AND having great damage. 25 might stacks by literally auto attacking anything in spite or hitting anything low is pretty good too. Having access to a trait which works similar to quickness in shroud is another thing that's pretty "meh" for speedclearing which has quickness and the two don't stack; but pretty neat for running around solo pressing some buttons clearing stuff left and right.

    But appearantly openworld necros are using staff so they can tag. I guess I was just spamming 1 wrong bois.
    Same for herald. Amazing damage modifiers for pvp / wvw and great ability to selfbuff is more valuable in openworld / solo play / pvp and wvw than it is in instanced PvE.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    I agree ele hs been OP for much of this games history at least for PvE. Unless you're salty and want necro in the same place in PvE; I don't see how most of this is relevant. If you're going to state "facts", don't be this biased.

    Excuse me but you put what I write outside of context. The context was that someone, a very pro elementalist player, dared to say that necromancer was always good everywhere and even borderingly OP. The reality and true fact are that the necromancer only ever existed in this game outside of WvW thanks to gimmick that ended up quickly nerfed and boon corruption after HoT. No elementalist fan can truly grasp how much the necromancer have and still suffer in PvE end game. And please, how can I take seriously someone that don't even know that necromancer's staff is one of the best weapon to tag mobs in PvE? It's like saying that guardian's staff auto before they changed it was bad for tagging mobs in open world PvE. Necromancer existed before PoF and scourge afterall and historically the necromancer had it worse than elementalist.

    I wasn't biased I just listed the time each were good with clear marks.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    Yeah, trivially stacking 25 might is pretty good in solo gameplay.

    "Necro useless because it's the easiest class to kill". Yeah, downsides that are commonly associated with having MORE PRESSURE than everything else. And in PvE "we're tanky and make others tankier too but that's useless because we're not top DPS!!"

    Pressure surely doesn't look like this, when you can facetank scourge without getting punished too hard.

    Make other tankier is pretty bad for pve, you just don't need it. There's a healer and a tank in raids you know?

    I have NO CLUE how necro is supposed to be "weaker" than ele during HoT or PoF from a PvP point of view. In HoT necro certainly won 1v1 and eles only role was being healbot for... the necro. In PoF ele can sustain and 1v1; but it struggles to even kill a necro. Meanwhile necro was dominant meta for months. Necro is STILL meta and ele isn't even close; after what 8 months of nerfs? If you're dying on your necro perhaps you should git gud.

    Or maybe you should git gud an get to fight good opponents. Lucky you if you only had bad opponents, that didn't know how to deal with necro. Recently I watched a stream of a very good PvP player. There was a ele, engi, firebrand in almost all teams, but guess what. Almost no necros.

    So yes, PvE DPS on necro is a little bit too low. everything else is meaningless tears of players who can't manage disadvantages but expect advantages for nothing. "Easiest class to kill" when you are higher pressure than anything else. "Tankiness is meaningless" when you aren't. Meanwhile we've had what, several seasons of necros being babysit by supports on PvP and WvW just to keep them alive and let them kill everything? Yeah.

    Nice you even acknowledge that necro is useless alone.

    Funnily enough, even with the higher benchmark on weaver; ele is in a worse spot in all three gamemodes than necro right now. Worse in WvW where scourges are still and forever required in much larger amounts and regardless of playstyle as long as it isn't solo roaming; solo roaming where ele is useless as well. PvP where... scourge is still meta and weaver is pretty awful at the high end. PvE where the weaver benchmark is higher, but considering differences in "support", "tankiness" and how the weaver rotation is + requires large hitbox, it's only used on a few bosses requiring high cleave or power burst DPS (KC).

    Give ele the necro heal and it will instantly surpass necro by pushing necro out of wvw meta, leaving it in a "nope you are not wanted in any gamemode"-state

    BUT MUM I'M A NECRO AND I'M SUPPOSED TO BE OUTRAGED. :trollface:
    Other than a small buff in PvE, necro needs nothing.

  • Milan.9035Milan.9035 Member ✭✭✭

    I think reaper is one of the best 1v1 classes right now. Just my opinion. Really i dont understand why so many people cry about necro. I do see the high end pve not being enough benchmark dps but thats about it. And no class should be measured on open world performance, that can be done with any spec.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    Yeah, trivially stacking 25 might is pretty good in solo gameplay.

    "Necro useless because it's the easiest class to kill". Yeah, downsides that are commonly associated with having MORE PRESSURE than everything else. And in PvE "we're tanky and make others tankier too but that's useless because we're not top DPS!!"

    Pressure surely doesn't look like this, when you can facetank scourge without getting punished too hard.

    I agree scourge has 0 pressure at all. That's why despite being the easiest to focus class it's /meta/ in PvP and WvW. Clearly it has NO pressure, NO tankiness and NO defensives. Literally the worst class everywhere in the game. /s

    Meanwhile for those of us who aren't playing in hyperboleland, scourge and reaper both have pretty good pressure. The only thing that even comes near is rev.

    Make other tankier is pretty bad for pve, you just don't need it. There's a healer and a tank in raids you know?

    I have NO CLUE how necro is supposed to be "weaker" than ele during HoT or PoF from a PvP point of view. In HoT necro certainly won 1v1 and eles only role was being healbot for... the necro. In PoF ele can sustain and 1v1; but it struggles to even kill a necro. Meanwhile necro was dominant meta for months. Necro is STILL meta and ele isn't even close; after what 8 months of nerfs? If you're dying on your necro perhaps you should git gud.

    Or maybe you should git gud an get to fight good opponents. Lucky you if you only had bad opponents, that didn't know how to deal with necro. Recently I watched a stream of a very good PvP player. There was a ele, engi, firebrand in almost all teams, but guess what. Almost no necros.

    Yes, necro is worse than weaver. Oh wait. Keep watching high end pvp streams pretending you have a clue about what goes on; meanwhile I remember ONE competitive game (NA rolling full bunker comp with heal tempest) compared to virtually EVERY AT finals having necros in them.

    My rating this season is 1722. There's more high rated eles than necros currently. Necro is still meta in PvP and weaver hasn't been since PoF hit, which was 8+ months ago.

    So yes, PvE DPS on necro is a little bit too low. everything else is meaningless tears of players who can't manage disadvantages but expect advantages for nothing. "Easiest class to kill" when you are higher pressure than anything else. "Tankiness is meaningless" when you aren't. Meanwhile we've had what, several seasons of necros being babysit by supports on PvP and WvW just to keep them alive and let them kill everything? Yeah.

    Nice you even acknowledge that necro is useless alone.

    Not meta. Neither is weaver, which has too low damage to kill any meta roamers. Just like necro is USEFUL alone in openworld PvE to do quite high damage with little work; but when given SUPPORTS other specs do far better.

    Funnily enough, even with the higher benchmark on weaver; ele is in a worse spot in all three gamemodes than necro right now. Worse in WvW where scourges are still and forever required in much larger amounts and regardless of playstyle as long as it isn't solo roaming; solo roaming where ele is useless as well. PvP where... scourge is still meta and weaver is pretty awful at the high end. PvE where the weaver benchmark is higher, but considering differences in "support", "tankiness" and how the weaver rotation is + requires large hitbox, it's only used on a few bosses requiring high cleave or power burst DPS (KC).

    Give ele the necro heal and it will instantly surpass necro by pushing necro out of wvw meta, leaving it in a "nope you are not wanted in any gamemode"-state

    This shows you have absolutely 0 understanding or insight into WvW or PvP. Glad I know I don't need to bother any further. If you think the reason necro is strong in pvp or wvw is ANY of their "heal" skills; then you're not worth discussing further with. Just no grasp of how these meta's work, why necro is strong or realistic approach.

    I'm sorry but the heal has nothing to do with necros viability in these gamemodes. Weaver can't corrupt, and as a result can never take necros place in WvW. Necro is still in a better spot than weaver in PvP and WvW and honestly probably pretty similar in PvE too.

    Please don't talk about wvw, pvp, meta or balance if you don't grasp any of those concepts. It's clear you don't play high end pvp if you think ele is better than necro. It's clear you have no clue about WvW is you think ele + necro heal would suddenly remove necro from the meta. Like honestly... what on earth are you even on about?

  • VanWilder.6923VanWilder.6923 Member ✭✭✭

    Idk, just got my Necro to 80 and unlocked both Elite Specs and I am having a blast. I am in love with Necro, I unlocked 1st Elite spec solo in PoF maps using core skill and it was so chill and super easy.

    I am main PvE btw.

  • Swamurabi.7890Swamurabi.7890 Member ✭✭✭

    @VanWilder.6923 said:
    Idk, just got my Necro to 80 and unlocked both Elite Specs and I am having a blast. I am in love with Necro, I unlocked 1st Elite spec solo in PoF maps using core skill and it was so chill and super easy.

    I am main PvE btw.

    Open world is irrelevant, unless you're running a bot.

    Try sPvP, raids, dungeons and fractals and come back with your report.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A lot of Necromancers I see in solo PvE are running Minion Master builds. If Necro is meta for anything other than WvW blob support, it is newbie support and we all know those builds have as low a dps as a skill threshold.

    Saying Necro's are everywhere in PvE ignores the desires of more experienced players for good performance on builds requiring more active play, and for builds that require more active play. Go read the complaints about greatsword being boring or the lack of modifiers.

    Sure, players flock to Necro when some broken mechanic becomes widely known but often leave, again, when the exploit is fixed but that happens with all professions. Most of us in this subforum want small improvements that increase skill requirement and are not broken-OP buffs.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    Yeah, trivially stacking 25 might is pretty good in solo gameplay.

    "Necro useless because it's the easiest class to kill". Yeah, downsides that are commonly associated with having MORE PRESSURE than everything else. And in PvE "we're tanky and make others tankier too but that's useless because we're not top DPS!!"

    Pressure surely doesn't look like this, when you can facetank scourge without getting punished too hard.

    I agree scourge has 0 pressure at all. That's why despite being the easiest to focus class it's /meta/ in PvP and WvW. Clearly it has NO pressure, NO tankiness and NO defensives. Literally the worst class everywhere in the game. /s

    Meanwhile for those of us who aren't playing in hyperboleland, scourge and reaper both have pretty good pressure. The only thing that even comes near is rev.

    Make other tankier is pretty bad for pve, you just don't need it. There's a healer and a tank in raids you know?

    I have NO CLUE how necro is supposed to be "weaker" than ele during HoT or PoF from a PvP point of view. In HoT necro certainly won 1v1 and eles only role was being healbot for... the necro. In PoF ele can sustain and 1v1; but it struggles to even kill a necro. Meanwhile necro was dominant meta for months. Necro is STILL meta and ele isn't even close; after what 8 months of nerfs? If you're dying on your necro perhaps you should git gud.

    Or maybe you should git gud an get to fight good opponents. Lucky you if you only had bad opponents, that didn't know how to deal with necro. Recently I watched a stream of a very good PvP player. There was a ele, engi, firebrand in almost all teams, but guess what. Almost no necros.

    Yes, necro is worse than weaver. Oh wait. Keep watching high end pvp streams pretending you have a clue about what goes on; meanwhile I remember ONE competitive game (NA rolling full bunker comp with heal tempest) compared to virtually EVERY AT finals having necros in them.

    My rating this season is 1722. There's more high rated eles than necros currently. Necro is still meta in PvP and weaver hasn't been since PoF hit, which was 8+ months ago.

    So yes, PvE DPS on necro is a little bit too low. everything else is meaningless tears of players who can't manage disadvantages but expect advantages for nothing. "Easiest class to kill" when you are higher pressure than anything else. "Tankiness is meaningless" when you aren't. Meanwhile we've had what, several seasons of necros being babysit by supports on PvP and WvW just to keep them alive and let them kill everything? Yeah.

    Nice you even acknowledge that necro is useless alone.

    Not meta. Neither is weaver, which has too low damage to kill any meta roamers. Just like necro is USEFUL alone in openworld PvE to do quite high damage with little work; but when given SUPPORTS other specs do far better.

    Funnily enough, even with the higher benchmark on weaver; ele is in a worse spot in all three gamemodes than necro right now. Worse in WvW where scourges are still and forever required in much larger amounts and regardless of playstyle as long as it isn't solo roaming; solo roaming where ele is useless as well. PvP where... scourge is still meta and weaver is pretty awful at the high end. PvE where the weaver benchmark is higher, but considering differences in "support", "tankiness" and how the weaver rotation is + requires large hitbox, it's only used on a few bosses requiring high cleave or power burst DPS (KC).

    Give ele the necro heal and it will instantly surpass necro by pushing necro out of wvw meta, leaving it in a "nope you are not wanted in any gamemode"-state

    This shows you have absolutely 0 understanding or insight into WvW or PvP. Glad I know I don't need to bother any further. If you think the reason necro is strong in pvp or wvw is ANY of their "heal" skills; then you're not worth discussing further with. Just no grasp of how these meta's work, why necro is strong or realistic approach.

    I'm sorry but the heal has nothing to do with necros viability in these gamemodes. Weaver can't corrupt, and as a result can never take necros place in WvW. Necro is still in a better spot than weaver in PvP and WvW and honestly probably pretty similar in PvE too.

    Please don't talk about wvw, pvp, meta or balance if you don't grasp any of those concepts. It's clear you don't play high end pvp if you think ele is better than necro. It's clear you have no clue about WvW is you think ele + necro heal would suddenly remove necro from the meta. Like honestly... what on earth are you even on about?

    As a main corrupt you take warrior bubbles anyways. Necros meta in wvw doesn't have as many corrupts as people think. It's well of corruption, maybe the trait, that corrupts on F1 use and that's it for the main course. Most people run spite nowadays over curses. Some people run both so they get the corrupt for f2 that's it for long range corrupts. And punishments have a very low radius so..... Not really countable.

    But what boons do you want to corrupt if enemy is inside a warrior bubble? You didn't think well about your post or about builds... Or how wvw is played at the moment. Maybe it's different in high tier. I don't know. right now, we have so few people that we rarely get queue on any map. So we won't be getting higher. But from what people tell me it's the same in t1. Zergs using warrior bubbles to kill enemies.

    But in aoe bombing ele is way better than necro is.

  • VanWilder.6923VanWilder.6923 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:

    @VanWilder.6923 said:
    Idk, just got my Necro to 80 and unlocked both Elite Specs and I am having a blast. I am in love with Necro, I unlocked 1st Elite spec solo in PoF maps using core skill and it was so chill and super easy.

    I am main PvE btw.

    Open world is irrelevant, unless you're running a bot.

    Try sPvP, raids, dungeons and fractals and come back with your report.

    With average ping of 300, Can't and don't want to do PvP, Raids require time commitment and I don't have that, Dungeons is dead, Fractals are good but then I need lot of time to gear it up to Meta build, currently gearing up Warrior, Guardian, Thief, Mesmer.

    For me, open world, so far I love Necro the most and I don't do bot. ;)

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is going to be fun.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    Yeah, trivially stacking 25 might is pretty good in solo gameplay.

    "Necro useless because it's the easiest class to kill". Yeah, downsides that are commonly associated with having MORE PRESSURE than everything else. And in PvE "we're tanky and make others tankier too but that's useless because we're not top DPS!!"

    Pressure surely doesn't look like this, when you can facetank scourge without getting punished too hard.

    I agree scourge has 0 pressure at all. That's why despite being the easiest to focus class it's /meta/ in PvP and WvW. Clearly it has NO pressure, NO tankiness and NO defensives. Literally the worst class everywhere in the game. /s

    Meanwhile for those of us who aren't playing in hyperboleland, scourge and reaper both have pretty good pressure. The only thing that even comes near is rev.

    Make other tankier is pretty bad for pve, you just don't need it. There's a healer and a tank in raids you know?

    I have NO CLUE how necro is supposed to be "weaker" than ele during HoT or PoF from a PvP point of view. In HoT necro certainly won 1v1 and eles only role was being healbot for... the necro. In PoF ele can sustain and 1v1; but it struggles to even kill a necro. Meanwhile necro was dominant meta for months. Necro is STILL meta and ele isn't even close; after what 8 months of nerfs? If you're dying on your necro perhaps you should git gud.

    Or maybe you should git gud an get to fight good opponents. Lucky you if you only had bad opponents, that didn't know how to deal with necro. Recently I watched a stream of a very good PvP player. There was a ele, engi, firebrand in almost all teams, but guess what. Almost no necros.

    Yes, necro is worse than weaver. Oh wait. Keep watching high end pvp streams pretending you have a clue about what goes on; meanwhile I remember ONE competitive game (NA rolling full bunker comp with heal tempest) compared to virtually EVERY AT finals having necros in them.

    My rating this season is 1722. There's more high rated eles than necros currently. Necro is still meta in PvP and weaver hasn't been since PoF hit, which was 8+ months ago.

    So yes, PvE DPS on necro is a little bit too low. everything else is meaningless tears of players who can't manage disadvantages but expect advantages for nothing. "Easiest class to kill" when you are higher pressure than anything else. "Tankiness is meaningless" when you aren't. Meanwhile we've had what, several seasons of necros being babysit by supports on PvP and WvW just to keep them alive and let them kill everything? Yeah.

    Nice you even acknowledge that necro is useless alone.

    Not meta. Neither is weaver, which has too low damage to kill any meta roamers. Just like necro is USEFUL alone in openworld PvE to do quite high damage with little work; but when given SUPPORTS other specs do far better.

    Funnily enough, even with the higher benchmark on weaver; ele is in a worse spot in all three gamemodes than necro right now. Worse in WvW where scourges are still and forever required in much larger amounts and regardless of playstyle as long as it isn't solo roaming; solo roaming where ele is useless as well. PvP where... scourge is still meta and weaver is pretty awful at the high end. PvE where the weaver benchmark is higher, but considering differences in "support", "tankiness" and how the weaver rotation is + requires large hitbox, it's only used on a few bosses requiring high cleave or power burst DPS (KC).

    Give ele the necro heal and it will instantly surpass necro by pushing necro out of wvw meta, leaving it in a "nope you are not wanted in any gamemode"-state

    This shows you have absolutely 0 understanding or insight into WvW or PvP. Glad I know I don't need to bother any further. If you think the reason necro is strong in pvp or wvw is ANY of their "heal" skills; then you're not worth discussing further with. Just no grasp of how these meta's work, why necro is strong or realistic approach.

    I'm sorry but the heal has nothing to do with necros viability in these gamemodes. Weaver can't corrupt, and as a result can never take necros place in WvW. Necro is still in a better spot than weaver in PvP and WvW and honestly probably pretty similar in PvE too.

    Please don't talk about wvw, pvp, meta or balance if you don't grasp any of those concepts. It's clear you don't play high end pvp if you think ele is better than necro. It's clear you have no clue about WvW is you think ele + necro heal would suddenly remove necro from the meta. Like honestly... what on earth are you even on about?

    As a main corrupt you take warrior bubbles anyways. Necros meta in wvw doesn't have as many corrupts as people think. It's well of corruption, maybe the trait, that corrupts on F1 use and that's it for the main course. Most people run spite nowadays over curses. Some people run both so they get the corrupt for f2 that's it for long range corrupts. And punishments have a very low radius so..... Not really countable.

    Warrior bubble prevents enemies from reapplying boons. It doesn't strip the 6-8 boons from melee before they literally dodge out; that's what you need SCOURGES for. The bubble is there to prevent them from reapplying the boons as quickly as you strip them and noping out. A warrior bubble without necros stripping on it does what... strip 1-2 boons before you're through? Sick.

    If people play SPITE, then they run with the CORRUPT TRAIT (spiteful spirit) on F5 to be able to spike corrupt more. They also run it with AXE, giving them 4 to 6 boon corrupts in AoE with 600 range on pushes / selfbombs. Most play this on top of curses, which gives corrupts on F1 / F2 spike from 900 range and optionally another proc on F5. Then there's well of corruption... And if you really have to, punishments. If your scourges aren't playing "main corrupt" they've got some L2P issues. And if you're actually good on necro, you're frequently using these corrupt spikes to kill players where as a spellbreaker only gets to "corrupt" anything the moment you push into melee range, they yolo for an offensive bubble or the enemies yolo into them. Both are far more rare than being able to bomb from 900 or 600 range.

    But what boons do you want to corrupt if enemy is inside a warrior bubble? You didn't think well about your post or about builds...

    I don't know, ALL the boons they have left? So you can pull and CC them and keep them in the bubble? You know, playing META against players who actually use skills. Players who HAVE BOONS on their melee before walking into a bubble and who will do what they need to to dodge / get out asap? Do you think a person with 6-10 boons that walks into a bubble magically loses them all? Poof gone? I think without scourges actually corrupting you lose 1-3 boons when going straight through. Pretty decent chances of even keeping stab.

    It's almost like, mhm, I command in WvW and discuss pug builds for WvW regularly with guild / server (ez builds). I think you honestly should stop posting about WvW and PvP all together. It's clear you do not actually know what's happening in either WvW or PvP. You talk about what you "see" while demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of both metas. "Weaver better than scourge in pvp. Necro not main corrupt in wvw :trollface: "

    Or how wvw is played at the moment. Maybe it's different in high tier. I don't know. right now, we have so few people that we rarely get queue on any map. So we won't be getting higher. But from what people tell me it's the same in t1. Zergs using warrior bubbles to kill enemies.

    Yet again; another statement showing you barely play or grasp what you're talking about yet you're here being an expert on balance. You then have the audacity to say I don't know builds or the meta; when it's clear you don't have ANY IDEA what you're talking about. Of course players coordinate both necro damage and bubbles. Coordinating a bomb is WvW 101. Here you are with the idea that players in bubbles magically have 0 boons because a bubble was dropped? At some point you should really stop arguing and listen to players that know better. Even the idea that T1 is somehow good gameplay shows you don't play wvw fights.

    But in aoe bombing ele is way better than necro is.

    Ele has better raw DPS and cleave. It has lower overall benefit as it can't survive on melee as well, doesn't help melee sustain, NEEDS necros to corrupt for them or it doesn't do damage at all, ... Eles without necros are next to useless and every decent guild and server runs more necros than eles. But hey, what do I know? 5k hours in WvW leading and playing ele, I just don't get the builds that are played you know. It's almost like... having higher hp, higher armor, corrupts, barrier, condi cleanse, ... are valuable tools to have on top of damage. OH WAIT WE WERE IGNORING THOSE MECHANICS! "Ele is better" but every meta comm runs what... 2-5 times more necros than weavers? Whooops.

    Please just stop arguing. It's clear you do not play WvW and PvP at a level required to talk about meta or balance. I'm sorry you just don't know what's going on, how the meta works the way it does or what's being played. As a result, you really can't talk about WvW or PvP balance. Spamming opinions which are plain false won't help anyone.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    In terms of balancing, as a on-and-off player since launch (Warrior main, not Necro) I would have to say “Yes”. Definitely the one that Anet has the most issue with “nailing it” just right: it is a constant roller coaster from overpowered like nuts (PoF launch) to hover in between mediocrity-to-underpowered.

    There just seems to be something inherent to the core design of the class that prevents a happy medium like most of the other classes, wouldn’t you say?

    When exactly necro has been UP?

    :2-4 necros per match in pvp
    20-30 necros out of 50 players in wvw meta
    tanky as hell in pve
    works in raid and more

    The profession has never been UP since 2013 when they started with Dhuumfire patch and people were spamming 4-5 necro per match....look how many play necro in gw2...where the hell do you see UP?....yeah they constantly cry for OP buffs while being OP af already but that has been the case since launch

    Let's keep to the fact:

    • PvP: Until anet started to overload the necromancer with boon corruption after HoT patch, the necromancer always hoovered between being "UP" and gimmicky builds. The necromancer was a popular character for it's thematic but not for it's performances.
    • WvW: The necromancer have always been meta in this gamemode but the "20-30 necros" thing only ever happen for PoF and it's been seriously nerfed since then. However, despite it's popularity in zerg, the necromancer have almost always been acknoledged as a poor roamer in WvW.
    • Open world PvE: being tanky in PvE have never been an advantage for any profession I don't understand why you would even put this here. The real advantage of the necromancer in PvE was it's staff which allowed him to easily tag mobs and make money.
    • Dungeon: Necromancers are and have always been poor dungeoneers. Alongside with rangers they were widely acknoledge as a liability in dungeons.
    • Fractal: Necromancers started to have a niche in this gamemode after HoT when anet started to put instability and more accurately the instability that grant boons to the mobs in fractals. Before that and even outside of this specific case the necromancer isn't seen as a powerfull profession in fractals.
    • Raid: Necromancers are acknowledged as the bottom of the barrel in raids, yes they work, but in expert hands, raids are doable with other professions without even putting an armor.

    But we can also look at the elementalist history in comparison:

    • PvP: Until anet removed the celestial amulet, elementalists were everywhere in PvP, dominating the gamemode.
    • WvW: Being the GWEN meta or the Pirateship meta, the elementalist was in a very good spot there. Outside of that, the elementalist was seen as a very good roamer up to HoT.
    • Openworld PvE: Same as the necromancer, the elementalist benefited a lot form it's ability to easily tag mobs in this gamemode. To be fair the benefit even more of this ability than the necromancer since their aoe are dealing damage over a "long time" which can be an advantage over necromancer's mark that often don't affect the mobs that trigger them due to invulnerability.
    • Dungeon: The elementalist have been the kings of dungeons. Undisputable buffer/dps, the dungeon meta comp was 4 elementalists and 1 thief. Even now, elementalist is the best profession if you intend to make a dungeon speed run or even try to crack a solo record.
    • Fractal: Elementalists are not kings of fractals, however they've been a favored pick since fractals launch. The elementalist's versatility and damages are quite usefull in fractals.
    • Raid: Until very recently elementalists were acknoledged as the single highest dps profession in raids leading them to be the favored pick for a dps spot. This spot of single best dps have been threaten 3 time: first by condi ranger, 2nd by epidemic scourge and now by power deadeye. Both condi ranger and epi scourge didn't last long on the spot, well maybe to long in the elementalist's eyes but objectively not that long.

    Those are facts.
    The reality is that the necromancer had to rely on gimmicky builds to exist outside of WvW until now and those gimmicky builds never lasted long. The reality is that the necromancer just don't have any possibility to reach other profession's dps in PvE, their support isn't needed and they've been used in raid only for their ability to cleave mobs. The reality is that the necromancer isn't the most played profession in the game, it's in 5th place behind guardian (1st), warrior(2nd), elementalist(3rd) and ranger(4th).

    Just stop already and look at the status of ele,somebody here can come any day and play ele while I stream ....where is it this almighty OP/super broken class called elementalist? https://metabattle.com/wiki/Elementalist where? where? where? can somebody link this set of god like builds that no ele apparently know?

    Look at necro : https://metabattle.com/wiki/Necromancer and people still cry their eyes out about a non existent class with zero sustain, drop that tanky reaper and do play an ele and see how fun it is....drop that celestial scourge in wvw and play a zerker staff ele and let's see any of you coming here and still making claims

    Elementalist has been unfun to play since HoT launch and before that it was already being riddled with nerfs at every turn, the class has still traits/weapon skills that have not been changed since launch...have the courage to drop necro to play ele for 1 month, 1 month then come back and tell us your experiences

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Elementalist has been unfun to play since HoT launch and before that it was already being riddled with nerfs at every turn, the class has still traits/weapon skills that have not been changed since launch...have the courage to drop necro to play ele for 1 month, 1 month then come back and tell us your experiences

    Personally, and this is my opinion:the nerfs to tempest rubbed me the wrong way.I don't agree with the nerfs done to meteor atack and air, but thats off topic here and we migth get hit with a warning from mods so lets keep the conversation on necros pls.

    Necros have been hit constantly with nerfs whenever they were good.The proof of this is from heart of thorns all the way up to pof where reapers got nerfed repeatedly, and were insanely easy to kill in spvp at one point then scourge came out reaper got nerfed more for the upcoming new elite spec and then scourge is now nerfed super hard.

    What i want is for Anet to personally write here and say what they think necros should be.How are we supposed to survive if we are constantly being hunted down and haven't the tools to escape properly or invulns and stuff like that?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Just stop already and look at the status of ele,somebody here can come any day and play ele while I stream ....where is it this almighty OP/super broken class called elementalist? https://metabattle.com/wiki/Elementalist where? where? where? can somebody link this set of god like builds that no ele apparently know?

    Look at necro : https://metabattle.com/wiki/Necromancer and people still cry their eyes out about a non existent class with zero sustain, drop that tanky reaper and do play an ele and see how fun it is....drop that celestial scourge in wvw and play a zerker staff ele and let's see any of you coming here and still making claims

    Elementalist has been unfun to play since HoT launch and before that it was already being riddled with nerfs at every turn, the class has still traits/weapon skills that have not been changed since launch...have the courage to drop necro to play ele for 1 month, 1 month then come back and tell us your experiences

    You clearly didn't read what I wrote or ignored my points. First of all, I play all professions equally so I'm pretty keen on what are the pro and cons of all professions. I am also not blinded by the metabattle site like you seem to be showing of metabattle as an absolute argument of your point.

    Let's be clear, You are not commenting on a wall of text that concern the state of elementalist and necromancer today, but on a wall of text that show the popularity history of both professions. And I wrote this wall of text to counter your false argument stating that necromancer have always been OP.

    Now, get yourself together because what I'll write might hurt you:

    • The elementalist is still in a better position than the necromancer in PvE.
    • Players are still successfull with the elementalist in PvP by playing semi-bunker builds.
    • Elementalist can still be played as both roamer and zergling in WvW.

    Most professions have not had any change to some of their traits and skills since launch. Most professions often see those changes as nerfs just like you do with the elementalists. The elementalist is not the only one who get nerfed patch after patch.

    Now, we all know that elementalists are frustrated to not be able to play offensively in PvP. We all know that elementalists feel shackled to the water traitline in PvP. We all know that the elementalists don't want to play anything than power dps builds in PvE and want their build to be the top dps build.

    However, you got to have to get over it, You think the necromancer isn't shackled to a specific kind of build? You think necromancers exploited epidemic easily? The epidemic exploit was possible years ago but the necromancer resigned itself to this gimmick only because there was no place for him in PvE, only a place for the "top dps". You think that elementalist can't use again tempest in PvP because metabattle say so? You're wrong, you can still use it for a role that elementalists just don't want to play.

    You ask me to broaden my horizon and play elementalist for a month. I've Played elementalist for 5 years already. You might be the one that need to stop clinging to a specific profession and try your luck at a profession that will be more "fun" for you to play since it seem like since HoT playing elementalist have been a chore to you.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Just stop already and look at the status of ele,somebody here can come any day and play ele while I stream ....where is it this almighty OP/super broken class called elementalist? https://metabattle.com/wiki/Elementalist where? where? where? can somebody link this set of god like builds that no ele apparently know?

    Look at necro : https://metabattle.com/wiki/Necromancer and people still cry their eyes out about a non existent class with zero sustain, drop that tanky reaper and do play an ele and see how fun it is....drop that celestial scourge in wvw and play a zerker staff ele and let's see any of you coming here and still making claims

    Elementalist has been unfun to play since HoT launch and before that it was already being riddled with nerfs at every turn, the class has still traits/weapon skills that have not been changed since launch...have the courage to drop necro to play ele for 1 month, 1 month then come back and tell us your experiences

    You clearly didn't read what I wrote or ignored my points. First of all, I play all professions equally so I'm pretty keen on what are the pro and cons of all professions. I am also not blinded by the metabattle site like you seem to be showing of metabattle as an absolute argument of your point.

    Let's be clear, You are not commenting on a wall of text that concern the state of elementalist and necromancer today, but on a wall of text that show the popularity history of both professions. And I wrote this wall of text to counter your false argument stating that necromancer have always been OP.

    Now, get yourself together because what I'll write might hurt you:

    • The elementalist is still in a better position than the necromancer in PvE.
    • Players are still successfull with the elementalist in PvP by playing semi-bunker builds.
    • Elementalist can still be played as both roamer and zergling in WvW.

    Most professions have not had any change to some of their traits and skills since launch. Most professions often see those changes as nerfs just like you do with the elementalists. The elementalist is not the only one who get nerfed patch after patch.

    Now, we all know that elementalists are frustrated to not be able to play offensively in PvP. We all know that elementalists feel shackled to the water traitline in PvP. We all know that the elementalists don't want to play anything than power dps builds in PvE and want their build to be the top dps build.

    However, you got to have to get over it, You think the necromancer isn't shackled to a specific kind of build? You think necromancers exploited epidemic easily? The epidemic exploit was possible years ago but the necromancer resigned itself to this gimmick only because there was no place for him in PvE, only a place for the "top dps". You think that elementalist can't use again tempest in PvP because metabattle say so? You're wrong, you can still use it for a role that elementalists just don't want to play.

    You ask me to broaden my horizon and play elementalist for a month. I've Played elementalist for 5 years already. You might be the one that need to stop clinging to a specific profession and try your luck at a profession that will be more "fun" for you to play since it seem like since HoT playing elementalist have been a chore to you.

    Sick tired of this pve talk BS, having troubles killing scripted creep aoe sponges?

    Now, get yourself together because what I'll write might hurt you:
    - The necromancer is still in a better position than the elementalist in PvP/WvW.
    - Players are successful with the necromancer in PvP by playing power reaper or blood scourge
    - Necromancer can be played as both reaper roamer and zergling with celestial blood scourge in WvW.

    Now, we all know that necromancers are frustrated to not be able to be top pick in Pve. We all know that necromancers feel shackled to the shroud mechanic. We all know that the necromancer don't want to play anything else but PvE and want their build to be the top dps build.

    However, you got to have to get over it, You think the elementalist isn't shackled to a specific kind of build?

    You might be the one that need to stop clinging to a specific profession and try your luck at a profession that will be more "useful" for you to play since it seem like since forever playing necromancer has been a curse to you.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    You might be the one that need to stop clinging to a specific profession and try your luck at a profession that will be more "useful" for you to play since it seem like since forever playing necromancer has been a curse to you.

    At least you have a pve build that heals well enough to be desired.

    Necros don't even do support that well and some have touted scourge as "A suport class" well riddle me this, what do you get if a class fails to be good at any 3 stuff? give up? DEAD WEIGHT!! thats what we get.

    Now if you don't want to contribute to pve please stop´

    Tempest has:Great healing.
    Pretty darn good support with wind you have constant uptime with wind got good amount of projectile hate good amount of invulns such as mist mode onyx skin for instance anyone? protection of course freely available from many sources

    Overall you got much more to offer than necros and scourges ability to corrupt boons got nerfed, and necro was already doing adly due to the fact it was one of the few things it had going for now its 1 instead of 2 boons.

    Lets not forget that the support part of scourge was butchered and sand savant with a weird lag and icd on everything.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You and the rest should finally (gasp) realise that all ele are asking is for a kitten reason behind the squishiness ...makes sense? If being squishy by design cannot mean top dps...what's the reason for the whole design? in the same case...necros are asking to be as effective as ele in pve dps while being 2-3x more naturally tanky..I fail to see the logic behind

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    You and the rest should finally (gasp) realise that all ele are asking is for a kitten reason behind the squishiness ...makes sense? If being squishy by design cannot mean top dps...what's the reason for the whole design? in the same case...necros are asking to be as effective as ele in pve dps while being 2-3x more naturally tanky..I fail to see the logic behind

    Because scourge isn't tanky , only reaper is and reaper is slow.

    Reaper also doesn't have invulns.You equate second health bar to something else, and besides:Shroud doesn't last that long anymore because it wears out fairly fast, and we cannot regen fast enough.

    What about thief? they are quite squishy too.I think you want to be having high dps and tankiness, well you can have reaper tankiness if you give me all your support and ccs that ele have, since you got tons of it.

    You also have invulns and protection and stuff like that.

    Eles have their issues but this isn't the place to complain about that, do that in the elementalist forum before we get a warning from the mods i will ignore you if you talk about ele as i don't want to get a warning so please stop.

    Let me put in another thing i thought of, (yes a lot of editing)

    Necros function differently in pve than pvp for obvious reason:A lot easier to LOS npcs than players, and when you lack mobility but have 2 health bars, its pointless to have 2 health bars if you cannot escape, making it a super frustrating experience.Necros dream of having things like e teleport on low cd resistances to immob, and some form of way to outsmart rangers and not instantly lose because rangers hard con you and there is next to zero way to outplay anyone now due to overnerfed traits.

    Pve problems necro have of survival is that some tools like condi corrupt and boon corrupt got nerfed fairly hard, and that was already one of the few things we had, and now you might as well bring any other class to strip instead of corrupt in pve.

    Forget about pvp problems as necro can stink there, but i want to be desired and useful in fractals dungeons and raids and have competitive edge.

    Personally i don't even like spvp that much, i much prefer WVW as its much more fun in large groups and having invasions rather than the toxic mess of spvp and camping.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    Both elementalist and necromancer have been subjected to terrible balance decisions. Instead of being petty and trying to appear to be the bigger victims, maybe people should go back to discussing solutions to these problems. There is no point for elementalist mains to come here and complain about the profession. There is also no point for necromancer mains to compare these two professions and act like elementalist is somehow good. This is all entirely unproductive.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Both elementalist and necromancer have been subjected to terrible balance decisions. Instead of being petty and trying to appear to be the bigger victims, maybe people should go back to discussing solutions to these problems. There is no point for elementalist mains to come here and complain about the profession. There is also no point for necromancer mains to compare these two professions and act like elementalist is somehow good. This is all entirely unproductive.

    Well-said. Was about to comment about how we’ve sorta gone off track. :+1:

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

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