Classes need to scale evenly with skill. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Classes need to scale evenly with skill.

Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They need more than half a year after an expansion to produce a pvp metagame that allows "most" of the classes to have some viable, somewhat diverse builds. Almost all of them still hard-stuck in a single role but hey.
    They haven't produced a single healthy or balanced WvW meta in at least 3 years. That said, overall balance isn't even that bad at the moment. Fixing problematic skills has often taken more than half a year here too.

    In PvP chrono, druid and BS play essentially the same role ever since raids were added to the game. They're also not replacable unless you sacrifice optimization for it, for chrono on all bosses.

    And somehow you think they can balance this game across ALL skill levels; producing a smooth learning curve for each class? Considering the skill difference between the average player and "high end", I think they can't do it for a single class.

    I agree if possible we should strive towards it. But realistically I don't think there's anything wrong with classes being great for newer players and not so great for the high end; or the other way around.

  • NecroSummonsMors.7816NecroSummonsMors.7816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    I mostly agree with what you said. Especially in guild wars 2 dev should stop buffing active defences for classes that already have them and cut them but giving them the passive ones, same thing goes for classes with passive defences that should get active ones and get the passive ones cut. This would create some sort of balance among classes, without throwing the class theme into garbage.
    What I think it's most important is to stop developing games with passive defences, they don't promote skillfull playstyle. Because if the only way, for you and all the other players, is to defend yourself actively your forced to learn to play in a skillfull way, thus developing a healthy competitive side at all level of play( from real noob to pro levels)

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    I mostly agree with what you said. Especially in guild wars 2 dev should stop buffing active defences for classes that already have them and cut them but giving them the passive ones, same thing goes for classes with passive defences that should get active ones and get the passive ones cut. This would create some sort of balance among classes, without throwing the class theme into garbage.
    What I think it's most important is to stop developing games with passive defences, they don't promote skillfull playstyle. Because if the only way, for you and all the other players, is to defend yourself actively your forced to learn to play in a skillfull way, thus developing a healthy competitive side at all level of play( from real noob to pro levels)

    That happens due the amount of AOE and cleave game has.
    Anet will continue to increase the aoe spambility of the game every expantion they dont do armor stats progressions but deliver the damage progression towards the expantions new gimmicks, so it will require more passives to "balance" in their heads the game.

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i think its too late to change gw2 cuz gw2 only move forward to the next expansion

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    I mostly agree with what you said. Especially in guild wars 2 dev should stop buffing active defences for classes that already have them and cut them but giving them the passive ones, same thing goes for classes with passive defences that should get active ones and get the passive ones cut. This would create some sort of balance among classes, without throwing the class theme into garbage.
    What I think it's most important is to stop developing games with passive defences, they don't promote skillfull playstyle. Because if the only way, for you and all the other players, is to defend yourself actively your forced to learn to play in a skillfull way, thus developing a healthy competitive side at all level of play( from real noob to pro levels)

    That happens due the amount of AOE and cleave game has.
    Anet will continue to increase the aoe spambility of the game every expantion they dont do armor stats progressions but deliver the damage progression towards the expantions new gimmicks, so it will require more passives to "balance" in their heads the game.

    Where is the correlation between armor stats and aoe cleave?

    And in what way did anet increase it? By introducing Scourge?

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I disagree with this guy's main point.. being that "Big burly dude with armor and big sword" is good for low skill brackets and "sneaky stabby active defense guy" are good in high skill brackets.

    He goes on to say how innate defense guy has much lower skill-scaling.. active defense guy has much higher skill-scaling...

    This just isn't true in GW2. The high skill-cap doesn't come from what kind of defenses you have. It's more tied in to how using your entire kit perfectly will allow you to obliterate your opponents.

    GW2 isn't purely a 'staying alive' simulator, you also have to factor in the entire kit. Necromancer for example has a very innate defense defensive style, but does the class scale evenly with skill, despite that? Hell freaking yes it does. It scales insanely well with skill.. Necros have the highest potential to carry games offensively due to their kit, lots of FAST and deadly skills like Spiteful Spirit, Chill of Death, Ghastly Claws, Corrupt Boon, instant transfers, look at the difference between top Necros who do insane pressure vs. even just slightly worse ones.

    Also, every profession regardless of active or innate defenses has a relatively large skill cap in staying alive. Positioning, kiting, jumping puzzles..

    Really the only message that I agree with entirely from this vid is that thief could maybe have a little more innate defense and necro maybe a little more active defense... like, just a touch??

    Chaith you misunderstand. I am by no means saying that necro has no scaling with skill. That is demonstrably false. I am saying that it does not scale equally with other classes. I think we can probably agree that a silver necro against silver opponents will be much more effective than a platinum necro against platinum opponents. Conversely a silver thief against silver opponents will be much less effective than a platinum thief against platinum opponents.

    Tell me Chaith if the January 2016 Balance patch never occurred would you have ever considered running a necro on your tournament team? You talk about how strong Spiteful Spirit, CoD, GC, and CB are, yet you don't realize that the reason those things are so freaking strong is because that's what it takes to make necro useful at high tier. For god's sake Spiteful Spirit's tooltip is almost as long as fully traited Steal, and Spiteful Spirit is just a single trait. Half of Power Reaper's traits would make any other class godly, yet on Power Reaper they make it B-tier. Can you imagine how insanely busted Warriors would be if they had Soul Eater? Can you imagine how insanely busted Revenants would be if they had Blighter's Boon? Can you imagine how insanely busted thieves would be if they had Chill of Death? Can you imagine how insanely busted Guardian would be if one of it's weapon symbols was Nightfall?

    Necromancer is only competitive in high tier because it had to be massively compensated to attempt to offset how kitten the base design concept of necro for pvp. Meanwhile Thief is kitten at basically everything except mobility and dodging yet thief had been meta for most of the game's history. Why? Because the basic concept of thief is perfectly suited for PvP.

    Oh and everytime the devs manage to compensate necro hard enough to make it able to compete on equal terms at high level, necro ends up completely and utterly breaking mid and low level PvP, because again the class does not scale in the same way other classes do.

    Classes must scale evenly with skill, if they do not then you get the mess that is both necro and thief. Where the former is doomed to always require babysitting in platinum, yet be godly in silver. While the latter is doomed to be a free kill in silver, yet practically untouchable in platinum.

    I am not ignoring your post here but I will have to jump straight to the question that interests me;
    what is untouchable Thief in your mind? Do you mean as it can bail on a lost fight and run away or do you mean win the fights? Fight-wise speaking, because the "basic concept of thief suited for PvP" can be very much reduced to Shortbow, with +1s happily loosing it's relevancy due to current state of "things".

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I disagree with this guy's main point.. being that "Big burly dude with armor and big sword" is good for low skill brackets and "sneaky stabby active defense guy" are good in high skill brackets.

    He goes on to say how innate defense guy has much lower skill-scaling.. active defense guy has much higher skill-scaling...

    This just isn't true in GW2. The high skill-cap doesn't come from what kind of defenses you have. It's more tied in to how using your entire kit perfectly will allow you to obliterate your opponents.

    GW2 isn't purely a 'staying alive' simulator, you also have to factor in the entire kit. Necromancer for example has a very innate defense defensive style, but does the class scale evenly with skill, despite that? Hell freaking yes it does. It scales insanely well with skill.. Necros have the highest potential to carry games offensively due to their kit, lots of FAST and deadly skills like Spiteful Spirit, Chill of Death, Ghastly Claws, Corrupt Boon, instant transfers, look at the difference between top Necros who do insane pressure vs. even just slightly worse ones.

    Also, every profession regardless of active or innate defenses has a relatively large skill cap in staying alive. Positioning, kiting, jumping puzzles..

    Really the only message that I agree with entirely from this vid is that thief could maybe have a little more innate defense and necro maybe a little more active defense... like, just a touch??

    Chaith you misunderstand. I am by no means saying that necro has no scaling with skill. That is demonstrably false. I am saying that it does not scale equally with other classes. I think we can probably agree that a silver necro against silver opponents will be much more effective than a platinum necro against platinum opponents. Conversely a silver thief against silver opponents will be much less effective than a platinum thief against platinum opponents.

    Tell me Chaith if the January 2016 Balance patch never occurred would you have ever considered running a necro on your tournament team? You talk about how strong Spiteful Spirit, CoD, GC, and CB are, yet you don't realize that the reason those things are so freaking strong is because that's what it takes to make necro useful at high tier. For god's sake Spiteful Spirit's tooltip is almost as long as fully traited Steal, and Spiteful Spirit is just a single trait. Half of Power Reaper's traits would make any other class godly, yet on Power Reaper they make it B-tier. Can you imagine how insanely busted Warriors would be if they had Soul Eater? Can you imagine how insanely busted Revenants would be if they had Blighter's Boon? Can you imagine how insanely busted thieves would be if they had Chill of Death? Can you imagine how insanely busted Guardian would be if one of it's weapon symbols was Nightfall?

    Necromancer is only competitive in high tier because it had to be massively compensated to attempt to offset how kitten the base design concept of necro for pvp. Meanwhile Thief is kitten at basically everything except mobility and dodging yet thief had been meta for most of the game's history. Why? Because the basic concept of thief is perfectly suited for PvP.

    Oh and everytime the devs manage to compensate necro hard enough to make it able to compete on equal terms at high level, necro ends up completely and utterly breaking mid and low level PvP, because again the class does not scale in the same way other classes do.

    Classes must scale evenly with skill, if they do not then you get the mess that is both necro and thief. Where the former is doomed to always require babysitting in platinum, yet be godly in silver. While the latter is doomed to be a free kill in silver, yet practically untouchable in platinum.

    I am not ignoring your post here but I will have to jump straight to the question that interests me;
    what is untouchable Thief in your mind? Do you mean as it can bail on a lost fight and run away or do you mean win the fights? Fight-wise speaking, because the "basic concept of thief suited for PvP" can be very much reduced to Shortbow, with +1s happily loosing it's relevancy due to current state of "things".

    I'm referring to the ability of a non-thief to kill a thief. Generally speaking if I as a non-thief get into a fight with a thief, there are two outcomes: Either the thief kills me outright, or the fight stalemates and the thief disengages. Thieves are only truly threatened by other other thieves. That's not to say that thieves are never killed by non-thieves, but it's far less common, and when it does happen it's usually a case of a p-shatter Mesmer or some other zerk instagib class managing to surprise a thief and instagib them before they react, as once a thief becomes aware of a threat your window for killing them is over.

    Also the +1 role is one of most impactful roles in conquest. You may not like being constrained to just that role, but that does not change how impactful that role is on the outcome of a match. Also being a good +1 is more than just mobility, if it was just about mobility then GS+sword ranger would be a viable +1 class, but it's not. +1 is not just about getting to a fight, but about how quickly you can kill the victim after reaching the fight.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I don't misunderstand, I'm saying Necro skill scaling is every bit as high as thief. Simply put, P/P or Deadeye is not bad in silver. Plat Reaper/scourge with FB in plat is not outpaced due to poor skill scaling either. Conflating skill scaling to how active your defenses are, that's a completely wrong statement. Necro and Thief scale out of silver/gold tier off of mastering entirely different mindsets, equally rewarding and equally difficult

    But would you say that skill can be put to better use with active defenses than with innate defenses? If all other things are equal, does active mechanics scale equally with innate mechanics?

    Also p/p or deadeye are a perfect example of non-scaling, since both of those lose relevance as you go into a higher level of play. It also creates a problem of thieves having to completely relearn how to play their class once they get high enough that spamming 3 stops being effective. Or they don't relearn and just ragequit the game after becoming convinced that their class is the most victimized class ever.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I disagree with this guy's main point.. being that "Big burly dude with armor and big sword" is good for low skill brackets and "sneaky stabby active defense guy" are good in high skill brackets.

    He goes on to say how innate defense guy has much lower skill-scaling.. active defense guy has much higher skill-scaling...

    This just isn't true in GW2. The high skill-cap doesn't come from what kind of defenses you have. It's more tied in to how using your entire kit perfectly will allow you to obliterate your opponents.

    GW2 isn't purely a 'staying alive' simulator, you also have to factor in the entire kit. Necromancer for example has a very innate defense defensive style, but does the class scale evenly with skill, despite that? Hell freaking yes it does. It scales insanely well with skill.. Necros have the highest potential to carry games offensively due to their kit, lots of FAST and deadly skills like Spiteful Spirit, Chill of Death, Ghastly Claws, Corrupt Boon, instant transfers, look at the difference between top Necros who do insane pressure vs. even just slightly worse ones.

    Also, every profession regardless of active or innate defenses has a relatively large skill cap in staying alive. Positioning, kiting, jumping puzzles..

    Really the only message that I agree with entirely from this vid is that thief could maybe have a little more innate defense and necro maybe a little more active defense... like, just a touch??

    Chaith you misunderstand. I am by no means saying that necro has no scaling with skill. That is demonstrably false. I am saying that it does not scale equally with other classes. I think we can probably agree that a silver necro against silver opponents will be much more effective than a platinum necro against platinum opponents. Conversely a silver thief against silver opponents will be much less effective than a platinum thief against platinum opponents.

    Tell me Chaith if the January 2016 Balance patch never occurred would you have ever considered running a necro on your tournament team? You talk about how strong Spiteful Spirit, CoD, GC, and CB are, yet you don't realize that the reason those things are so freaking strong is because that's what it takes to make necro useful at high tier. For god's sake Spiteful Spirit's tooltip is almost as long as fully traited Steal, and Spiteful Spirit is just a single trait. Half of Power Reaper's traits would make any other class godly, yet on Power Reaper they make it B-tier. Can you imagine how insanely busted Warriors would be if they had Soul Eater? Can you imagine how insanely busted Revenants would be if they had Blighter's Boon? Can you imagine how insanely busted thieves would be if they had Chill of Death? Can you imagine how insanely busted Guardian would be if one of it's weapon symbols was Nightfall?

    Necromancer is only competitive in high tier because it had to be massively compensated to attempt to offset how kitten the base design concept of necro for pvp. Meanwhile Thief is kitten at basically everything except mobility and dodging yet thief had been meta for most of the game's history. Why? Because the basic concept of thief is perfectly suited for PvP.

    Oh and everytime the devs manage to compensate necro hard enough to make it able to compete on equal terms at high level, necro ends up completely and utterly breaking mid and low level PvP, because again the class does not scale in the same way other classes do.

    Classes must scale evenly with skill, if they do not then you get the mess that is both necro and thief. Where the former is doomed to always require babysitting in platinum, yet be godly in silver. While the latter is doomed to be a free kill in silver, yet practically untouchable in platinum.

    I am not ignoring your post here but I will have to jump straight to the question that interests me;
    what is untouchable Thief in your mind? Do you mean as it can bail on a lost fight and run away or do you mean win the fights? Fight-wise speaking, because the "basic concept of thief suited for PvP" can be very much reduced to Shortbow, with +1s happily loosing it's relevancy due to current state of "things".

    I'm referring to the ability of a non-thief to kill a thief. Generally speaking if I as a non-thief get into a fight with a thief, there are two outcomes: Either the thief kills me outright, or the fight stalemates and the thief disengages. Thieves are only truly threatened by other other thieves. That's not to say that thieves are never killed by non-thieves, but it's far less common, and when it does happen it's usually a case of a p-shatter Mesmer or some other zerk instagib class managing to surprise a thief and instagib them before they react, as once a thief becomes aware of a threat your window for killing them is over.

    So the by "untouchable Thief" you ment it can disengage.
    Good, for a second I got impression you were implying that Thief dominates fights.
    Also, just to note I wouldn't exactly call a scenario in which Thief can't kill someone and is getting deleted instead, a "stalemate", that suggests both players can go on fighting, that's absolutely not possible for Thief vs any other profession in game, unless full bunker enemy of course.

    About the +1, of course it is impactuf... If it works out, that's what I ment that it's relevancy is being reduced due to most opponents having so many heals or blocks or sand shroud or AoE being 90% present all over the place or Invuls, If you go d/p (or any other set for that matter) and you'll +1 someone, then you can notice that in literally most cases even though you watch for Retaliation and AoEs, you will still get hit for several Ks dmg just be jumping at the target, that's how bad it is for Thief in current meta.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I disagree with this guy's main point.. being that "Big burly dude with armor and big sword" is good for low skill brackets and "sneaky stabby active defense guy" are good in high skill brackets.

    He goes on to say how innate defense guy has much lower skill-scaling.. active defense guy has much higher skill-scaling...

    This just isn't true in GW2. The high skill-cap doesn't come from what kind of defenses you have. It's more tied in to how using your entire kit perfectly will allow you to obliterate your opponents.

    GW2 isn't purely a 'staying alive' simulator, you also have to factor in the entire kit. Necromancer for example has a very innate defense defensive style, but does the class scale evenly with skill, despite that? Hell freaking yes it does. It scales insanely well with skill.. Necros have the highest potential to carry games offensively due to their kit, lots of FAST and deadly skills like Spiteful Spirit, Chill of Death, Ghastly Claws, Corrupt Boon, instant transfers, look at the difference between top Necros who do insane pressure vs. even just slightly worse ones.

    Also, every profession regardless of active or innate defenses has a relatively large skill cap in staying alive. Positioning, kiting, jumping puzzles..

    Really the only message that I agree with entirely from this vid is that thief could maybe have a little more innate defense and necro maybe a little more active defense... like, just a touch??

    Chaith you misunderstand. I am by no means saying that necro has no scaling with skill. That is demonstrably false. I am saying that it does not scale equally with other classes. I think we can probably agree that a silver necro against silver opponents will be much more effective than a platinum necro against platinum opponents. Conversely a silver thief against silver opponents will be much less effective than a platinum thief against platinum opponents.

    Tell me Chaith if the January 2016 Balance patch never occurred would you have ever considered running a necro on your tournament team? You talk about how strong Spiteful Spirit, CoD, GC, and CB are, yet you don't realize that the reason those things are so freaking strong is because that's what it takes to make necro useful at high tier. For god's sake Spiteful Spirit's tooltip is almost as long as fully traited Steal, and Spiteful Spirit is just a single trait. Half of Power Reaper's traits would make any other class godly, yet on Power Reaper they make it B-tier. Can you imagine how insanely busted Warriors would be if they had Soul Eater? Can you imagine how insanely busted Revenants would be if they had Blighter's Boon? Can you imagine how insanely busted thieves would be if they had Chill of Death? Can you imagine how insanely busted Guardian would be if one of it's weapon symbols was Nightfall?

    Necromancer is only competitive in high tier because it had to be massively compensated to attempt to offset how kitten the base design concept of necro for pvp. Meanwhile Thief is kitten at basically everything except mobility and dodging yet thief had been meta for most of the game's history. Why? Because the basic concept of thief is perfectly suited for PvP.

    Oh and everytime the devs manage to compensate necro hard enough to make it able to compete on equal terms at high level, necro ends up completely and utterly breaking mid and low level PvP, because again the class does not scale in the same way other classes do.

    Classes must scale evenly with skill, if they do not then you get the mess that is both necro and thief. Where the former is doomed to always require babysitting in platinum, yet be godly in silver. While the latter is doomed to be a free kill in silver, yet practically untouchable in platinum.

    I am not ignoring your post here but I will have to jump straight to the question that interests me;
    what is untouchable Thief in your mind? Do you mean as it can bail on a lost fight and run away or do you mean win the fights? Fight-wise speaking, because the "basic concept of thief suited for PvP" can be very much reduced to Shortbow, with +1s happily loosing it's relevancy due to current state of "things".

    I'm referring to the ability of a non-thief to kill a thief. Generally speaking if I as a non-thief get into a fight with a thief, there are two outcomes: Either the thief kills me outright, or the fight stalemates and the thief disengages. Thieves are only truly threatened by other other thieves. That's not to say that thieves are never killed by non-thieves, but it's far less common, and when it does happen it's usually a case of a p-shatter Mesmer or some other zerk instagib class managing to surprise a thief and instagib them before they react, as once a thief becomes aware of a threat your window for killing them is over.

    So the by "untouchable Thief" you ment it can disengage.
    Good, for a second I got impression you were implying that Thief dominates fights.
    Also, just to note I wouldn't exactly call a scenario in which Thief can't kill someone and is getting deleted instead, a "stalemate", that suggests both players can go on fighting, that's absolutely not possible for Thief vs any other profession in game, unless full bunker enemy of course.

    About the +1, of course it is impactuf... If it works out, that's what I ment that it's relevancy is being reduced due to most opponents having so many heals or blocks or sand shroud or AoE being 90% present all over the place or Invuls, If you go d/p (or any other set for that matter) and you'll +1 someone, then you can notice that in literally most cases even though you watch for Retaliation and AoEs, you will still get hit for several Ks dmg just be jumping at the target, that's how bad it is for Thief in current meta.

    When talking about the ability of a thief to disengage wherein people suggest this gives Thief too much an ability to avoid threats, I am reminded of the old debate in the British Navy regarding Battleships and Battle Cruisers. The Battleship was heavily armored and had big guns. The Battle Cruiser had big guns abut little armor. The Admiralty in promoting the Battle Cruiser claimed it could engage and destroy any foe it met until the battleship showed where it would then just use its superior speed to get away. All well and good until it came down to a battle . If it had to flee because Mr Battleship showed up it would play no role in that battle. if it did try to fight in such a battle it would be obliberated. At the end of the day it was NOT a success. The Concept was deemed a failure.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I disagree with this guy's main point.. being that "Big burly dude with armor and big sword" is good for low skill brackets and "sneaky stabby active defense guy" are good in high skill brackets.

    He goes on to say how innate defense guy has much lower skill-scaling.. active defense guy has much higher skill-scaling...

    This just isn't true in GW2. The high skill-cap doesn't come from what kind of defenses you have. It's more tied in to how using your entire kit perfectly will allow you to obliterate your opponents.

    GW2 isn't purely a 'staying alive' simulator, you also have to factor in the entire kit. Necromancer for example has a very innate defense defensive style, but does the class scale evenly with skill, despite that? Hell freaking yes it does. It scales insanely well with skill.. Necros have the highest potential to carry games offensively due to their kit, lots of FAST and deadly skills like Spiteful Spirit, Chill of Death, Ghastly Claws, Corrupt Boon, instant transfers, look at the difference between top Necros who do insane pressure vs. even just slightly worse ones.

    Also, every profession regardless of active or innate defenses has a relatively large skill cap in staying alive. Positioning, kiting, jumping puzzles..

    Really the only message that I agree with entirely from this vid is that thief could maybe have a little more innate defense and necro maybe a little more active defense... like, just a touch??

    Chaith you misunderstand. I am by no means saying that necro has no scaling with skill. That is demonstrably false. I am saying that it does not scale equally with other classes. I think we can probably agree that a silver necro against silver opponents will be much more effective than a platinum necro against platinum opponents. Conversely a silver thief against silver opponents will be much less effective than a platinum thief against platinum opponents.

    Tell me Chaith if the January 2016 Balance patch never occurred would you have ever considered running a necro on your tournament team? You talk about how strong Spiteful Spirit, CoD, GC, and CB are, yet you don't realize that the reason those things are so freaking strong is because that's what it takes to make necro useful at high tier. For god's sake Spiteful Spirit's tooltip is almost as long as fully traited Steal, and Spiteful Spirit is just a single trait. Half of Power Reaper's traits would make any other class godly, yet on Power Reaper they make it B-tier. Can you imagine how insanely busted Warriors would be if they had Soul Eater? Can you imagine how insanely busted Revenants would be if they had Blighter's Boon? Can you imagine how insanely busted thieves would be if they had Chill of Death? Can you imagine how insanely busted Guardian would be if one of it's weapon symbols was Nightfall?

    Necromancer is only competitive in high tier because it had to be massively compensated to attempt to offset how kitten the base design concept of necro for pvp. Meanwhile Thief is kitten at basically everything except mobility and dodging yet thief had been meta for most of the game's history. Why? Because the basic concept of thief is perfectly suited for PvP.

    Oh and everytime the devs manage to compensate necro hard enough to make it able to compete on equal terms at high level, necro ends up completely and utterly breaking mid and low level PvP, because again the class does not scale in the same way other classes do.

    Classes must scale evenly with skill, if they do not then you get the mess that is both necro and thief. Where the former is doomed to always require babysitting in platinum, yet be godly in silver. While the latter is doomed to be a free kill in silver, yet practically untouchable in platinum.

    I am not ignoring your post here but I will have to jump straight to the question that interests me;
    what is untouchable Thief in your mind? Do you mean as it can bail on a lost fight and run away or do you mean win the fights? Fight-wise speaking, because the "basic concept of thief suited for PvP" can be very much reduced to Shortbow, with +1s happily loosing it's relevancy due to current state of "things".

    I'm referring to the ability of a non-thief to kill a thief. Generally speaking if I as a non-thief get into a fight with a thief, there are two outcomes: Either the thief kills me outright, or the fight stalemates and the thief disengages. Thieves are only truly threatened by other other thieves. That's not to say that thieves are never killed by non-thieves, but it's far less common, and when it does happen it's usually a case of a p-shatter Mesmer or some other zerk instagib class managing to surprise a thief and instagib them before they react, as once a thief becomes aware of a threat your window for killing them is over.

    So the by "untouchable Thief" you ment it can disengage.
    Good, for a second I got impression you were implying that Thief dominates fights.
    Also, just to note I wouldn't exactly call a scenario in which Thief can't kill someone and is getting deleted instead, a "stalemate", that suggests both players can go on fighting, that's absolutely not possible for Thief vs any other profession in game, unless full bunker enemy of course.

    About the +1, of course it is impactuf... If it works out, that's what I ment that it's relevancy is being reduced due to most opponents having so many heals or blocks or sand shroud or AoE being 90% present all over the place or Invuls, If you go d/p (or any other set for that matter) and you'll +1 someone, then you can notice that in literally most cases even though you watch for Retaliation and AoEs, you will still get hit for several Ks dmg just be jumping at the target, that's how bad it is for Thief in current meta.

    When talking about the ability of a thief to disengage wherein people suggest this gives Thief too much an ability to avoid threats, I am reminded of the old debate in the British Navy regarding Battleships and Battle Cruisers. The Battleship was heavily armored and had big guns. The Battle Cruiser had big guns abut little armor. The Admiralty in promoting the Battle Cruiser claimed it could engage and destroy any foe it met until the battleship showed where it would then just use its superior speed to get away. All well and good until it came down to a battle . If it had to flee because Mr Battleship showed up it would play no role in that battle. if it did try to fight in such a battle it would be obliberated. At the end of the day it was NOT a success. The Concept was deemed a failure.

    Indeed.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Rufo.3716Rufo.3716 Member ✭✭✭

    A lot of the scaling has to do with builds as well. You can have 1 build that just obliterates people in silver/low gold. But that same build won't work worth a kitten in plat. Opposite is also true, some builds will work much better against plat level players due to sustainability, where as in lower tiers, more burst will kill your opponents quicker and you don't need the sustain just due to the fact of player skill you are against.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    I mostly agree with what you said. Especially in guild wars 2 dev should stop buffing active defences for classes that already have them and cut them but giving them the passive ones, same thing goes for classes with passive defences that should get active ones and get the passive ones cut. This would create some sort of balance among classes, without throwing the class theme into garbage.
    What I think it's most important is to stop developing games with passive defences, they don't promote skillfull playstyle. Because if the only way, for you and all the other players, is to defend yourself actively your forced to learn to play in a skillfull way, thus developing a healthy competitive side at all level of play( from real noob to pro levels)

    That happens due the amount of AOE and cleave game has.
    Anet will continue to increase the aoe spambility of the game every expantion they dont do armor stats progressions but deliver the damage progression towards the expantions new gimmicks, so it will require more passives to "balance" in their heads the game.

    Where is the correlation between armor stats and aoe cleave?

    And in what way did anet increase it? By introducing Scourge?

    There inst needed a direct correlations between armor and the aoe cause wath will hit hard, will still hit hard with armor 1 more atack wont make much diference, since armor it is mostly there to reduce damage on the cleaves that are being "lost" on the batlefield while ur trying to kite red cricles (im surviving way more with paper revenant than "bunker" guard and doing much more damage even on frontlines), what i ment by "lost damage"is the atacks that gona hit you like u were the targeted to be hitted, while in fact was the targets/players nearby you and ur eating alot of the cleaves no matter if turn left or right(this scheme is a bit dull...this remminds when im auto'ing wiht my hammer 1 wich is 5 targets if i reccal well(so it is a aoe....), when i cleave and kill the guy or 2 at his right or left while i notice they are dyign just to cleave damage and not being targeted directly........ lold kill given by how game is ment to carry me offensivly...that's how i feel), in a team of 5 if 3 players are just being selected, damage will hit all 5 players for sure with alot of redudancy since well most autos are cleaves and theres more aoe and cleaves skills, that's making game where people dont need to know what they have to atack, still understandable since this is game for pve casuals, even that would be to much difficult for most.

    Now just having some skills with cleaves and far less AOE skills would be far more interesting and balanced than have full auto atacks plus other skills that cleave all the way with more aoe skills at mixture to ease the process of hit something, the current cleave number of skills help overburden the game with the aoe spam wich makes Anet enforce more passive skills.

    Actually scourge is just a simpton of Anet bad class design, same hapened with the awful DH spec, broken to win with traps powercreeping in short time targets(i never won so many matches w/o effort in a game like i did with DH traps).
    So it is not only scourge alone, Spambrand, and most classes autos cleaves plus more cleaves and aoe on other skills/utilities also help the overburden of aoe game has wich leads sometimes to broken and unbalances passives, also with the aoe/cleave spam gameplay players dont need to know who they will heal, just keep pressing numbers.

    Gw2 skill design remminds alot of Diablo3 (im a diablo player btw, Anet if ur reading this i know what u have done in some of the mobs skills from PoF, LoL), and for some reason PvP dont exist there due how dumb it is...classes simply are not made for it, wich is the same for gw2.

    Pve 1st, america 2nd, skill balance... lold.
    And sorry if my english sounds confuse.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If all other things are equal, does active mechanics scale equally with innate mechanics?

    'All other things equal' doesn't exist.. every profession that has fewer active defense mechanics has higher impact offensive mechanics where they can scale with skill there instead.

    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver. But it's not, the most dominant classes in silver are not the most dominant classes in platinum.

    Also p/p or deadeye are a perfect example of non-scaling, since both of those lose relevance as you go into a higher level of play.

    It's a perfect example of how a build with purely active defenses is at a high power level silver/gold... which 100% directly contradicts the original video's points.

    Does P/p work in silver because the silver thief is making strong use of his actives, or is it working because spamming 3 is easy, but countering 3 spam is (relatively) more difficult.

    Classes must scale evenly with skill, if they do not then you get the mess that is both necro and thief. Where the former is doomed to always require babysitting in platinum, yet be godly in silver. While the latter is doomed to be a free kill in silver, yet practically untouchable in platinum.

    You're confusing a symbiotic relationship between Necro and Support with lack of skill scaling, completely failing to take into account that Necros scale with skill immensely when it comes to offensive combos & killing efficiently. Scourge is still the highest power level option available when played at the highest skill possible.. it provably scales with skill.
    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    Tell me Chaith if the January 2016 Balance patch never occurred would you have ever considered running a necro on your tournament team?

    What kind of hypothetical would that serve? If a patch didn't happen that massively buffed Necro, would I take a Necro? Who cares, since the reality is that Necromancer through Vanilla, HoT and PoF has always been utterly dominant in the highest echelons of play, when built around properly, if you had a Necro player worth that effort.

    Let me rephrase. If necromancer did not have a exclusive monopoly on boon corrupt, would the class have any value in high tier?

    Surely you have noticed that ever since the January 2016 patch, ArenaNet's method for balancing necro is to just shovel on more boon corrupt whenever the class is struggling. Actually I know you've noticed since you made comments toward such back when Scourge came out. Look at power necro. It didn't work post HoT, so Anet added a corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't good so Anet added corrupts to Nightfall. It still wasn't good so they added a second corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't nearly good so they added another 2 corrupts to Spiteful Spirit on a <50% proc, and then gave Corrupt Boon a 2nd charge for good measure.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018

    While you make a few good points, I feel this 20 min video is a bit simplified. Your arguments about the binary differences between active and passive (innate) defenses seem outdated; in the sense that it would make perfect sense if we were still in the core meta. But we have had 2 expansions and 3 times the number of possible professions.

    You take Warrior as a good indicator of the balance between active and passive defenses. I'd have to disagree. Warriors are in the upper echelon of innate defenses. They have the highest armor, highest base vitality, and have more passive defenses than most classes. That doesn't mean Warriors are the best class, but I hold the firm belief that Warriors are currently the best heavy armor class in low scale PvP.

    In my opinion, I don't think comparing classes in GW2's PvP setting is appropriate, as you focus in on the defensive abilities of classes as an estimation of average balance. It's a team based game mode where the whole is greater than the parts (you, your teammates, and what builds they use). This is compounded by the fact that GW2 1v1 is a rock-paper-scissors interaction. At absolute equal skill, you will have a build that fares better vs different builds and fares worse against other builds. Teamplay is the reason why we win or lose, and we are often held as hostage to whether or not our teammates can adapt or swap to different styles of play.

    Reading back, I'm not sure I've made my real point, so here it is flat out: this game has become too complicated (in both mechanics and number of professions) that the past and current (imo) iteration of the rock-paper-scissors battle makes the PvP game incredibly hard to balance and difficult to include all professions into the meta. Take Warrior (Berserker, Spellbreaker) for example. The best counter is higher sustain and sustained ranged damage. That makes me think, "Druid would be the best counter", but Druid isn't part of the meta, and that's a reason why Warriors do well in PvP. Warriors won't have to deal with the water to their fire, since most Rangers will be playing Soulbeast because that class does better versus other meta professions, enabling Warriors to do their thing without consequence. There isn't enough time during pre-match to swap traits, weapons, skills, sigils, etc. and Anet's refusal to implement build templates further exacerbates the issue.

    In addition, I feel like the developers have been focusing on designing elite specializations based on thematics instead of balance. What looks good when you're immersing yourself in the PvE world doesn't translate well when you're aiming for a higher PvP rank. Active versus passive defense is only a part of, what I believe (as in my own opinion), the main issue at hand.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018

    i dont see how warrior attacks fast.. there is no other class as telegraphed and easy to avoid. the reason warrior is still good in sPvP is because of the node forcing the opponents to stay in the area wich limits kiting options. but on just open open field 1 vs 1 a warrior is together with necro at the bottom, warrior with worst offensive options and necro with worse selfdefense.
    the issue with your video is that it would only be relevant if there was you know real 1 vs 1 arena as a game mode and the game balanced for that. but we have as PvP modes only group content. we also dont have a pure deathsmatch or last man standig mode, so not just the fighting potential is important.
    you are right that players will be able to utilize more mechanics on higher levels of play wich can render easier to learn basics rather obsolete. but that is for every class. and in group content every player affects everyone in the team your skill scales more as a team than as an individual, you have to be aware what your teammates know and can utilize aswell.
    for winning on higher levels of play it is also more important to predict and bait your opponent than knowledge and reaction time, because everyone has knowlege and reaction on higher levels. but predicting and baiting you can utilize on any build no matter if your offense and defense is slow or fast. you can perfectly bait your opponent to get hit by a slow attack.
    thief is IMO strong for 1vs1 fights not because of the speed but because it is less predictable mainly due to initative and stealth, lowering ini regen and giving 2 seperate ini bars for the weapon sets would make thieves more predictable as they would have to use both sets, they could even buff individual weapon skills ontop, thief would still be more in line with other professions then. but then again there is no 1 vs 1 mode and thieves 1 vs 1 ailities are much lower in the context of the conquest mode. for example:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    Also p/p or deadeye are a perfect example of non-scaling, since both of those lose relevance as you go into a higher level of play. It also creates a problem of thieves having to completely relearn how to play their class once they get high enough that spamming 3 stops being effective. Or they don't relearn and just ragequit the game after becoming convinced that their class is the most victimized class ever.

    while deadeye might be not efficient in higher levels of conquest. considering the 1 vs 1 capabilities outside of a conquest context, it is still one of the strongest options in the game. but range + stealth is punished by conquest design and you also need frontloaded damage yet deadeye truely excells in building up a huge burst wich might take time. so you can utilize your skill for deadeye alot (ofc not spamming 3) just not in conquest, but for example in WvW solo roaming. if there was a last man standing mode, then a deadeye would be top tier. the meta thief builds are just better for the role in conquest.
    îts not the classes that dont scale with skill, its just roles or entire modes that do not favour all options in the game wich can make some builds appear to not scale with skill. with more diverse modes this could be different.

    as for playing what you like and not what the game demands, well you cant expect to win then. you wont win a car race if you join with a lawnmower. but this is a major reason for a ton of complains in the forums, more so from WvW roaming than sPvP but also a little from here. a better explaination of such behaviour can be found here. and example for this are power d/d thieves. some people still like to play it because of the style, they may claim to be the best player in the game, thats no use if you dont have tools in your kit you can utilize to actually win fights against more than a targetdummy. so they do not use any skill at all as the build wont allow it, wont make their opponents worse players only cause they have a less limited build.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver.

    All classes have options scaling very equally with skill, not every build, man.

    Does P/p work in silver because the silver thief is making strong use of his actives, or is it working because spamming 3 is easy, but countering 3 spam is (relatively) more difficult.

    This is also my point, it's pointing out that it's not just all about what kind off defenses you have, as all the necro mains are trying to spin due to their perceived low skill scaling.

    Surely you have noticed that ever since the January 2016 patch, ArenaNet's method for balancing necro is to just shovel on more boon corrupt whenever the class is struggling. Actually I know you've noticed since you made comments toward such back when Scourge came out. Look at power necro. It didn't work post HoT, so Anet added a corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't good so Anet added corrupts to Nightfall. It still wasn't good so they added a second corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't nearly good so they added another 2 corrupts to Spiteful Spirit on a <50% proc, and then gave Corrupt Boon a 2nd charge for good measure.

    So what? Necro is designed to be strong at boon corruption, and it takes patience and timing to optimally take someone apart using corruption.

    You were expecting them to buff Necro with stealth/invulns/blocks/evades/teleports instead? Why is balancing Necro at its designed purpose met with such disdainful comments like 'shoveling on' corruption?

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So I started watching this video so I could understand what the hell this thread was about so I could join in on this discussion. I stopped the video at 11:20 after hearing the example of: "big bulky guy with sword is having fun in low tier with his innate defenses and then he gets to high tier and realizes his class is useless because he is being outplayed by active defenses." Its like I hear what the guy in the video is saying and it would almost seem to be true, but after that comment I was confused and had to ask myself "What game is he discussing here?" because:

    • In Guild Wars 2 the big bulky guy with a sword is called a Spellbreaker and it definitely has plenty of active defenses that function maybe a bit too well considering it also has the highest values of innate defenses.
    • Other big bulky guys in Guild Wars 2 -> Guardian based builds, Heralds = All of which have plenty of active defenses. Firebrands have active defenses for the entire team. Heralds have sword 3 as a frequent active defense, and their offensive pressure IS their active defense. That's how the class works.
    • Rangers, Engis = Plenty of active defenses, plenty. Thieves, pleeeenty of active defenses but at higher tiers these active defenses are often not enough because the Thieves seriously lack innate defenses. The active defenses of a Thief certainly do not carry it to godhood in higher tier play. In fact, Thieve struggle in combat at higher tier play and their main role really is just to decap and + when/if it becomes advantageous. They actually lose combats to the classes with stronger innate defenses because every class has active defenses.
    • Eles, a mish-mash of active & innate defenses. Slightly underpowered as a class as a whole right now, so no reason to really comment on this other than pointing out it has plenty of active defenses at its disposal.
    • Mesmers <- Here is the 1st half of what I think the OP is feeling in the video. Mesmers are widely acknowledged as simply over powered. Too much damage, Too much utility, Too much mobility/disengage, Way too many active defenses for its damage/utility/mobility/disengage. At higher tiers, Mesmers win combats, and it often does feel like it is because of an enormous amount of active defenses, that other classes cannot front. We all feel this, but remember that this is the only class that is broken in this way. The theory in the video doesn't necessarily hold true vs. the rest of the intra-class dynamic.
    • Necros <- Here is the 2nd half of what I think the OP is feeling in the video. Can't help to notice that the guy talking is playing a Reaper and he is concerned with the skill scaling of classes from entry level to high tiers. He is likening the difference between classes with innate defenses "which is claims are strong entry level" but how they fall prey to classes with better active defenses "which he claims outplay innate defenses at higher tiers." I kind of don't feel this is true at all in Guild Wars 2 because every class has plenty of active defenses, even Necromancers. I feel like there are only 2x things that would make the OP of the video form his opinion: 1. He is playing a Reaper, which although it does have active defenses like Flesh Wurm, Spectral Walk, Plague Signet, they aren't always convenient to run in spvp build structures. Reaper is the ONE class in the game that does sort of struggle with applicable & viable active defenses. Pretty much a Reaper's best active defenses are a very aggressive offense, well timed CC play and correct positioning. Necros have also been notoriously bad in 1v1 situations since launch, due to a lack of mobility and yes, a lack of active defenses. This is probably a lot of what he is feeling. IE: Getting trashed by Thieves because they actively disengage shroud to waste LF and come back when it is on CD. All highly mobile/high DPS classes can treat Necromancers like this. But rest assured, this is a problem exclusively for Necromancers and that is mainly because Necromancers were not designed to be 1v1 characters. Necromancers were designed to tear apart team fights with nuclear cleaving and abundant boon conversions.

    So all in all, I can see why the OP of the video feels the way he does, but he should identify that the problem he is speaking of is pretty exclusive to Necromancers when we are talking about Guild Wars 2 and not other games. Furthermore, I think he is seeing this as an issue with classes scaling with skill, when really he may be feeling the effects of power creep and how it effects these innate & active defenses. This is a pretty good explanation of what happens:

    The higher damage output gets game wide, the less important statistical numeric defenses become, such as "toughness" "vitality" or even "protection". Although an unrealistic example, as not many people actually run the spec, the best example I can use here is that of the 1-Shot Soulbeast. This build is capable of landing so much damage output with a single strike, that toughness, vitality, protection buff, passive defenses like defy pain, none of it matters because if you get hit, you die. This creates an effect where it doesn't even matter if the opponent has 10,000 health or 20,000 health, or protection, or even the presence of his heal skill doesn't matter. The only things that matter for counter-play are active defenses -> dodges, evades, blocks, active invulns, stealths, sheer mobility. This leads to the real problem with such power creep. When the damage potential gets so high, it becomes much more rewarding to run bursty classes such as Thief or Mesmer because not only are they amongst the heaviest burst classes in the game, but these type of burst classes intrinsically were originally designed with the most active defenses -> dodges, evades, stealths, sheer mobility, ect. ect. All resulting in a situation where we find ourselves in a high DPS meta where the squishies have become the classes with the better sustain and the slower classes that were meant to be tanky through statistical power "toughness" "vitality" "lots of protection buffs stability" "ect. ect." actually become the easiest targets to kill. The more power creeping we see to DPS without adequate defensive boosts to balance, the more true the above effect becomes.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Skill is a complex topic. It is not defined purely by rotation complexity as many newbies boil the topic down to.

    For example, delaying the use of a finisher for the correct combo field takes skill. It may throw off the rotation but doing so could prevent a wasted skill use. It also takes skill to watch the status and tells of the opponent.

    Just because the next skill in a rotation is off cool down it does not mean it should automatically be used. This is why discussions on dps, rotation complexity, and skill equality, especially against a training golem, can be tricky.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    So I started watching this video so I could understand what the hell this thread was about so I could join in on this discussion. I stopped the video at 11:20 after hearing the example of: "big bulky guy with sword is having fun in low tier with his innate defenses and then he gets to high tier and realizes his class is useless because he is being outplayed by active defenses." Its like I hear what the guy in the video is saying and it would almost seem to be true, but after that comment I was confused and had to ask myself "What game is he discussing here?" because:

    • In Guild Wars 2 the big bulky guy with a sword is called a Spellbreaker and it definitely has plenty of active defenses that function maybe a bit too well considering it also has the highest values of innate defenses.

    If you had actually watched the entire video instead of closing it halfway through, I talked about Warrior specifically. Warrior is in my opinion the best example of a class that manages to mix innate and active defenses perfectly.

    The use of "big bulky guy with a big sword" was me making a trope generalization for all games not just GW2. In GW2 the class that is closest to "big bulky guy with a big sword" would be Reaper which takes the trope to the extreme. In many other games the innate class is often the "warrior" class. However GW2 warrior does carry some aspects of the innate defenses trope.

    • Other big bulky guys in Guild Wars 2 -> Guardian based builds, Heralds = All of which have plenty of active defenses. Firebrands have active defenses for the entire team. Heralds have sword 3 as a frequent active defense, and their offensive pressure IS their active defense. That's how the class works.

    Neither Guardian nor Revenant meet the trope at all though. Revenant is closer to the "rogue" trope in terms of mechanics. The only thing about either Rev or Guardian that overlaps the innate defense trope is that they have heavy armor. That's literally it.

    Please note the video talks about game design tropes, not story writing tropes.

    • Necros <- Here is the 2nd half of what I think the OP is feeling in the video. Can't help to notice that the guy talking is playing a Reaper and he is concerned with the skill scaling of classes from entry level to high tiers. He is likening the difference between classes with innate defenses "which is claims are strong entry level" but how they fall prey to classes with better active defenses "which he claims outplay innate defenses at higher tiers." I kind of don't feel this is true at all in Guild Wars 2 because every class has plenty of active defenses, even Necromancers. I feel like there are only 2x things that would make the OP of the video form his opinion: 1. He is playing a Reaper, which although it does have active defenses like Flesh Wurm, Spectral Walk, Plague Signet, they aren't always convenient to run in spvp build structures. Reaper is the ONE class in the game that does sort of struggle with applicable & viable active defenses. Pretty much a Reaper's best active defenses are a very aggressive offense, well timed CC play and correct positioning. Necros have also been notoriously bad in 1v1 situations since launch, due to a lack of mobility and yes, a lack of active defenses. This is probably a lot of what he is feeling. IE: Getting trashed by Thieves because they actively disengage shroud to waste LF and come back when it is on CD. All highly mobile/high DPS classes can treat Necromancers like this. But rest assured, this is a problem exclusively for Necromancers and that is mainly because Necromancers were not designed to be 1v1 characters. Necromancers were designed to tear apart team fights with nuclear cleaving and abundant boon conversions.

    The complaint is not about balance and more about Agency. Classes built around innate defenses have less tools available to them to keep themselves alive. If the incoming attacks outscale your innate defenses you're dead. And this does effect other classes and the game as a whole. Necro and thief are used in the video as a example because those two classes represent the extreme far ends of the spectrum.

    Please watch the entire video and don't draw conclusions from just half of it.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Namless.4028Namless.4028 Member ✭✭✭

    I do see your point that there is a difference in your learning curve depending what kind of class you play. The problem is that if you try to eliminate that you would have a lot of classes that feel the same (yes you can still have classes that feel different, but having a guy with a lot of passive defences and a guy with lots of active defences creates a vastly different feeling with low effort). I think having both types helps to create teamplay (example necro + fb). I wanted to add that as someone with big telegraphs you are able to learn to play around them (showing the animation of a skill without actually aktivating it for example).
    Both types of classes do scale with skill but I have to agree with you that active defence classes allow you to show your skill better.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 I got it. Watched the rest of the video, that clears up a few things.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver.

    All classes have options scaling very equally with skill, not every build, man.

    If all classes scale equally, then they should all be equally desirable at every tier, if they are equally desirable then they should have equivalent representation across all tiers, and therefore the representation of the class at any arbitrary skill tier should be equivalent to the class's representation in the total population.
    In other words if 10% of bronze players play Class A, then we should expect 10% of platinum players to play Class A. This can then be expanded to that if 10% of PvP'ers play class A then we can assume that 10% of whatever-tier-you-want plays Class A.

    As far as I am aware there are 15 necros on the NA leaderboard. I probably missed a few so lets say there are 20 necros on the leaderboard. That gives us a 8% necro representation on the leaderboard. The best player available statistics for overall class population that I could find is gw2efficieny which puts necros between 11%-12% of the overall population.

    Since the representation of the necros on the leaderboard is less that the class's overall representation, we can draw the conclusion that the class is not as favored at higher tiers as it is at lower tiers. Also if necro is underrepresented relative to it's population then we can also conclude that one or more other classes have a representation that is above what is expected.

    Does P/p work in silver because the silver thief is making strong use of his actives, or is it working because spamming 3 is easy, but countering 3 spam is (relatively) more difficult.

    This is also my point, it's pointing out that it's not just all about what kind off defenses you have, as all the necro mains are trying to spin due to their perceived low skill scaling.

    So if we move beyond defenses, what about necro gives it equal playmaking or carrying power to classes like thief, FB, holo, Mesmer, etc? Because I don't see how necro is supposed to have equal impact on the outcome of the match, especially when the class is rotationally chained to teamfights and is extremely limited in matchups.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 is right about necro having an abnormally high skill cap. Unlike builds where offensive CC chains are enough to win duels (i.e. Holosmith) due to their combination of active and passive defenses, necro builds can't handle that. So as Chaith mentioned, positioning is highly important. One of the best necros in NA is Lu Bu; I've played alongside him and dueled him quite a bit, and he is just fantastic. The reason is that he's memorized the terrain of maps down to little details and can take advantage of them at a moment's notice; for instance, he'll position himself slightly in front of the gravestones at the midpoint on Foefire, then when you approach him he'll hop up on them backwards, which allows him to keep attacking you while simultaneously kiting. If I had footage I would show it but I think I deleted that recording. @Crinn.7864 you should practice that maneuver.

    Another example of this level of play is Nos. I once saw him being chased by a warrior on Kyhlo; he got to the edge of the platform at mid and faked jumping off of it, meaning that he started jumping forward, then reversed direction in mid-air. The guy chasing him got juked and fell all the way down, which both relieved pressure on Nos and allowed him to get some free hits on the guy.

    The one area where I disagree with Chaith is that Scourge is the best build for people at the highest skill-cap; when the July 10th patch moved boon corruption from Scepter auto attack to Feast of Corruption, this improved condi necro's "burst" potential in teamfights, but devalued attacking-while-kiting as described above. Necro scepter auto went from being the gold-standard auto to, if I'm being honest, not even worth using unless literally everything else is on cooldown. That's a problem for a number of reasons, partly because condi clears like Contemplation of Purity and Eternal Oasis instantly clear so many condis, but also because invulns negate condi damage while still ticking. As it is now I'm better off running away and casting Scepter 2 as I'm moving, which honestly is a pretty bad skill. If they halved the bleed duration and doubled the stacks then it would be more viable. So as a result condi necro just isn't what it was, it's more rewarding at lower skill levels than it used to be, but worse at higher tiers.

  • I feel like this argument might have some validity if you're just talking abstractly about class-based, competitive games in general, but it falls apart once you actually try to apply it to GW2, specifically, because you'll find classes with primarily innate defenses (e.g. necromancer) that are dominant and classes with primarily active defenses (e.g. elementalist) that are under-performing. There's so much more that goes into determining how strong a class is at the highest level of play than just the type of defenses a class has; how good it is at putting out damage and cc, at supporting teammates, at moving across the map, are all every bit as important. Like, it only makes sense to draw a direct comparison between the defensive capabilities of classes like necromancer and thief if you're going to compare their offensive capabilities as well.

    I also don't think there's anything inherently wrong with classes being more team-dependent than others. Not every class has to be self-sufficient.

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If all other things are equal, does active mechanics scale equally with innate mechanics?

    'All other things equal' doesn't exist.. every profession that has fewer active defense mechanics has higher impact offensive mechanics where they can scale with skill there instead.

    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver. But it's not, the most dominant classes in silver are not the most dominant classes in platinum.

    This is going to be true in every class-based, competitive game. Like, unless you make every class play exactly the same, you're not going to escape the fact that some classes will have lower or higher skill floors than others. It's perfectly okay for there to be classes that are difficult for a complete beginner to pick up and do well with.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    @Chaith.8256 is right about necro having an abnormally high skill cap. Unlike builds where offensive CC chains are enough to win duels (i.e. Holosmith) due to their combination of active and passive defenses, necro builds can't handle that. So as Chaith mentioned, positioning is highly important. One of the best necros in NA is Lu Bu; I've played alongside him and dueled him quite a bit, and he is just fantastic. The reason is that he's memorized the terrain of maps down to little details and can take advantage of them at a moment's notice; for instance, he'll position himself slightly in front of the gravestones at the midpoint on Foefire, then when you approach him he'll hop up on them backwards, which allows him to keep attacking you while simultaneously kiting. If I had footage I would show it but I think I deleted that recording. @Crinn.7864 you should practice that maneuver.
    Another example of this level of play is Nos. I once saw him being chased by a warrior on Kyhlo; he got to the edge of the platform at mid and faked jumping off of it, meaning that he started jumping forward, then reversed direction in mid-air. The guy chasing him got juked and fell all the way down, which both relieved pressure on Nos and allowed him to get some free hits on the guy.

    Positioning is not something that exclusively limited to necros. I am well aware of the jumping puzzles on Forefire and the other maps, this isn't something new. Juking with about face is not something new either, and you can actually see an engi attempt a about-face juke in the video, albeit in the engi's case nobody fell for it.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    @Chaith.8256 is right about necro having an abnormally high skill cap. Unlike builds where offensive CC chains are enough to win duels (i.e. Holosmith) due to their combination of active and passive defenses, necro builds can't handle that. So as Chaith mentioned, positioning is highly important. One of the best necros in NA is Lu Bu; I've played alongside him and dueled him quite a bit, and he is just fantastic. The reason is that he's memorized the terrain of maps down to little details and can take advantage of them at a moment's notice; for instance, he'll position himself slightly in front of the gravestones at the midpoint on Foefire, then when you approach him he'll hop up on them backwards, which allows him to keep attacking you while simultaneously kiting. If I had footage I would show it but I think I deleted that recording. @Crinn.7864 you should practice that maneuver.
    Another example of this level of play is Nos. I once saw him being chased by a warrior on Kyhlo; he got to the edge of the platform at mid and faked jumping off of it, meaning that he started jumping forward, then reversed direction in mid-air. The guy chasing him got juked and fell all the way down, which both relieved pressure on Nos and allowed him to get some free hits on the guy.

    Positioning is not something that exclusively limited to necros. I am well aware of the jumping puzzles on Forefire and the other maps, this isn't something new. Juking with about face is not something new either, and you can actually see an engi attempt a about-face juke in the video, albeit in the engi's case nobody fell for it.

    I never claimed that you don't know about attacking while kiting (not actually the same as about faces), I said you should practice it. Unlike many other classes, necro's auto attacks on scepter AND axe are quite strong, so you get quite a lot of value out of using them while kiting. I'm free to duel you this evening if you like. I'm sure you know more than the basics, but what separates the good from the great is correctly applying what you should do under pressure. Point being that Lu Bu makes a habit of correctly positioning himself, and uses jumping puzzles even while moving backwards. I'm sure you know about that on some level, but if you're not doing as well as he has been then it's an issue of properly applying that knowledge. And if you are doing as well as he is (at one point he was top 10 in NA and could've stayed there if he had been more conservative) then there's nothing that needs to be changed.

  • @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver.

    All classes have options scaling very equally with skill, not every build, man.

    As far as I am aware there are 15 necros on the NA leaderboard. I probably missed a few so lets say there are 20 necros on the leaderboard. That gives us a 8% necro representation on the leaderboard. The best player available statistics for overall class population that I could find is gw2efficieny which puts necros between 11%-12% of the overall population.

    Since the representation of the necros on the leaderboard is less that the class's overall representation, we can draw the conclusion that the class is not as favored at higher tiers as it is at lower tiers. Also if necro is underrepresented relative to it's population then we can also conclude that one or more other classes have a representation that is above what is expected.

    This is more of an issue of solo queue making it more favorable to focus on being self-sufficient than on being good at working as a team, than it is necromancer 'not scaling well with player skill'. In a match with coordinated teams, necromancer is so strong that it's essentially a must-pick

    Does P/p work in silver because the silver thief is making strong use of his actives, or is it working because spamming 3 is easy, but countering 3 spam is (relatively) more difficult.

    This is also my point, it's pointing out that it's not just all about what kind off defenses you have, as all the necro mains are trying to spin due to their perceived low skill scaling.

    So if we move beyond defenses, what about necro gives it equal playmaking or carrying power to classes like thief, FB, holo, Mesmer, etc? Because I don't see how necro is supposed to have equal impact on the outcome of the match, especially when the class is rotationally chained to teamfights and is extremely limited in matchups.

    Winning teamfights is an incredibly important aspect of winning a match, so clearly being the better necro and carrying your team in teamfights is going to have a huge impact. Like, are you arguing that Firebrand has way stronger playmaking ability and carrying power than Scourge, despite both specs being 'rotationally chained to teamfights', simply because its defenses are 'active'?

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Clearly nobody here seems to understand how frustrating it can be to be a necro main if you don't have a firebrand babysitting you.

    The game is soloqueue based. Nobody wants to have to rely on a certain team comp to be able to play their main class and necro falls heavily into that cathegory. If you do not have a team that is team fight oriented playing necro is just the most frustrating thing you can do.

    Arguments like "necros dominate with proper comp" are completely worthless, simply because that is not realistic most of the time. Sure, if you're a high tier necro who hangs out with high tier buddies you can run the occasional AT and dominate while being babysitted, but that is just ONE scenario.

    I'd say this hits the nail on the head concerning the Thief also. Only instead of needing a Firebrand to babysit you, you're having to hope your four teammates will both rotate properly and stay alive long enough for you to get to them from wherever you may be at any given time. Unfortunately, solo queue does NOT lead to good results.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I disagree with this guy's main point.. being that "Big burly dude with armor and big sword" is good for low skill brackets and "sneaky stabby active defense guy" are good in high skill brackets.

    He goes on to say how innate defense guy has much lower skill-scaling.. active defense guy has much higher skill-scaling...

    This just isn't true in GW2. The high skill-cap doesn't come from what kind of defenses you have. It's more tied in to how using your entire kit perfectly will allow you to obliterate your opponents.

    GW2 isn't purely a 'staying alive' simulator, you also have to factor in the entire kit. Necromancer for example has a very innate defense defensive style, but does the class scale evenly with skill, despite that? Hell freaking yes it does. It scales insanely well with skill.. Necros have the highest potential to carry games offensively due to their kit, lots of FAST and deadly skills like Spiteful Spirit, Chill of Death, Ghastly Claws, Corrupt Boon, instant transfers, look at the difference between top Necros who do insane pressure vs. even just slightly worse ones.

    Also, every profession regardless of active or innate defenses has a relatively large skill cap in staying alive. Positioning, kiting, jumping puzzles..

    Really the only message that I agree with entirely from this vid is that thief could maybe have a little more innate defense and necro maybe a little more active defense... like, just a touch??

    I don't agree. Necro can only carry, if he's babysitted by another class.

    Positioning and kiting is the same on all classes. So that's no point.

    If you take an evenly high skilled necro and thief. Who do you think would win?

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    So if we move beyond defenses, what about necro gives it equal playmaking or carrying power to classes like thief, FB, holo, Mesmer, etc? Because I don't see how necro is supposed to have equal impact on the outcome of the match, especially when the class is rotationally chained to teamfights and is extremely limited in matchups.

    Even in Plat I carry a lot more on reaper than on thief. I main both classes. In a lot of matchups thief is completely useless unlike a reaper who has an impact in pretty much every matchup. Climbing to plat in solo q on reaper is a lot easier than on thief.

    Btw. the build you were running in that video is bad as it ignores the strenghs of the class, which is corruptions. You played basically a worse version of a warrior (lots of blood magic regen, some burst). You also did not slot one single mobility skill (wurm, walk) or use the SR traitline which would boost your sustain by a significant amount. I think your video was not recoreded in bronze matches. And you were still doing fine!

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I disagree with this guy's main point.. being that "Big burly dude with armor and big sword" is good for low skill brackets and "sneaky stabby active defense guy" are good in high skill brackets.

    He goes on to say how innate defense guy has much lower skill-scaling.. active defense guy has much higher skill-scaling...

    This just isn't true in GW2. The high skill-cap doesn't come from what kind of defenses you have. It's more tied in to how using your entire kit perfectly will allow you to obliterate your opponents.

    GW2 isn't purely a 'staying alive' simulator, you also have to factor in the entire kit. Necromancer for example has a very innate defense defensive style, but does the class scale evenly with skill, despite that? Hell freaking yes it does. It scales insanely well with skill.. Necros have the highest potential to carry games offensively due to their kit, lots of FAST and deadly skills like Spiteful Spirit, Chill of Death, Ghastly Claws, Corrupt Boon, instant transfers, look at the difference between top Necros who do insane pressure vs. even just slightly worse ones.

    Also, every profession regardless of active or innate defenses has a relatively large skill cap in staying alive. Positioning, kiting, jumping puzzles..

    Really the only message that I agree with entirely from this vid is that thief could maybe have a little more innate defense and necro maybe a little more active defense... like, just a touch??

    I don't agree. Necro can only carry, if he's babysitted by another class.

    Positioning and kiting is the same on all classes. So that's no point.

    If you take an evenly high skilled necro and thief. Who do you think would win?

    Necro just needs to not be outnumbered, not necessarily requiring dedicated support. If you're versus a fast comp then a support is smart.

    Evenly high skilled necro, if you want to make that the subject, I know a lot. I played with Noscoc for years, learning a lot about what necro can do. Here's some stats on equally high-skilled Necros vs. everyone else:

    • Nos vs. Toker in a 1v1 matchup favors the necro throughout 95% of GW2's balance history.
    • Thief has not had good 1v1 matchups overall, whereas Necro has had the best of any class, just very weak to +1 and higher scaling in 2v2+ size fights so it never ended up succeeding in the role.
    • High skill necros have historically been the best class at winning even numbered fights and a required class for anything to die at bunker meta times, but the worst at dealing with being outrotated. Even in the no-dedicated support Cele meta in vanilla Necro held it's own.

    Put it this way, when duo queue comes back, Necros will get a huge buff. Just one player of any class dedicated to rotating to you will improve Necro greatly.

    Necro mains will continue to think their class is underpowered and low skill scaling but continue to only soloQ with bad teammates!

    Who are these guys? They seem pretty bad to me if necro wins 95% of the 1v1s.

    Sorry to tell you, but most pvpers are pretty bad. Even in the upper ranks people do silly mistakes when fighting each other, and sometimes still win.

    So as I don't count spvp as a gamemode, because there's literally no build diversity due to amulet system. I have only wvw left to judge. Necro is a sitting duck. If the high mobile/high burst with easy to land interrupt skills, can't manage to solokill a necro, he's just straight up bad.

    I saw pvpers going to wvw roaming loosing to some solo people with zerg builds, and afterwards ragequitting and going back to PvP.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Who are these guys? They seem pretty bad to me

    Sorry to tell you, but most pvpers are pretty bad.

    So as I don't count spvp as a gamemode

    wvw roaming

    This is the PvP forum, Thief is not 1v1ing in PvP. Also lol @ the highlighted comments. Toker is a 20k+ USD earned as thief from gw2.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    I saw pvpers going to wvw roaming loosing to some solo people with zerg builds, and afterwards ragequitting and going back to PvP.

    The exact opposite also happens because people get arrogant when they are on the top of THEIR preferred gamemode. I'm sensing a little of that from this comment. Then they go to another gamemode, get their kitten handed to them because they don't know squat about what they are doing. WvW roamers come to PvP, duel all match and then wonder why they don't win. It's because they don't rotate, or take duels based on what they know from WvW just to get shut down.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver.

    All classes have options scaling very equally with skill, not every build, man.

    Does P/p work in silver because the silver thief is making strong use of his actives, or is it working because spamming 3 is easy, but countering 3 spam is (relatively) more difficult.

    This is also my point, it's pointing out that it's not just all about what kind off defenses you have, as all the necro mains are trying to spin due to their perceived low skill scaling.

    Surely you have noticed that ever since the January 2016 patch, ArenaNet's method for balancing necro is to just shovel on more boon corrupt whenever the class is struggling. Actually I know you've noticed since you made comments toward such back when Scourge came out. Look at power necro. It didn't work post HoT, so Anet added a corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't good so Anet added corrupts to Nightfall. It still wasn't good so they added a second corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't nearly good so they added another 2 corrupts to Spiteful Spirit on a <50% proc, and then gave Corrupt Boon a 2nd charge for good measure.

    So what? Necro is designed to be strong at boon corruption, and it takes patience and timing to optimally take someone apart using corruption.

    You were expecting them to buff Necro with stealth/invulns/blocks/evades/teleports instead? Why is balancing Necro at its designed purpose met with such disdainful comments like 'shoveling on' corruption?

    it would be ok if we could play without babysitter, even if you take most tank build other classes outsustain you(cuz you do no harm to them). Its sad necro is only class bad at 1v1

    Jokaurene

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Who are these guys? They seem pretty bad to me

    Sorry to tell you, but most pvpers are pretty bad.

    So as I don't count spvp as a gamemode

    wvw roaming

    This is the PvP forum, Thief is not 1v1ing in PvP. Also lol @ the highlighted comments. Toker is a 20k+ USD earned as thief from gw2.

    I'll quote a part of another post of his :

    Or maybe you should git gud an get to fight good opponents. Lucky you if you only had bad opponents, that didn't know how to deal with necro. Recently I watched a stream of a very good PvP player. There was a ele, engi, firebrand in almost all teams, but guess what. Almost no necros.

    So chaith, as a very good pvp streamer (citation needed) : would you say ele is more popular or more meta than necro in high-end PvP? :trollface:

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver.

    All classes have options scaling very equally with skill, not every build, man.

    Does P/p work in silver because the silver thief is making strong use of his actives, or is it working because spamming 3 is easy, but countering 3 spam is (relatively) more difficult.

    This is also my point, it's pointing out that it's not just all about what kind off defenses you have, as all the necro mains are trying to spin due to their perceived low skill scaling.

    Surely you have noticed that ever since the January 2016 patch, ArenaNet's method for balancing necro is to just shovel on more boon corrupt whenever the class is struggling. Actually I know you've noticed since you made comments toward such back when Scourge came out. Look at power necro. It didn't work post HoT, so Anet added a corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't good so Anet added corrupts to Nightfall. It still wasn't good so they added a second corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't nearly good so they added another 2 corrupts to Spiteful Spirit on a <50% proc, and then gave Corrupt Boon a 2nd charge for good measure.

    So what? Necro is designed to be strong at boon corruption, and it takes patience and timing to optimally take someone apart using corruption.

    You were expecting them to buff Necro with stealth/invulns/blocks/evades/teleports instead? Why is balancing Necro at its designed purpose met with such disdainful comments like 'shoveling on' corruption?

    it would be ok if we could play without babysitter, even if you take most tank build other classes outsustain you(cuz you do no harm to them). Its sad necro is only class bad at 1v1

    Lets see :
    Meta firebrand is worse at 1v1
    Meta thief builds are worse at 1v1
    ...
    It's almost as if there are builds which are designed to 1v1, and builds which are designed to do other things, and each have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's almost as if having a super mobile +1 build be the strongest 1v1 would be very broken. Just like how having the strongest teamfight DPS class also beat everything 1v1 - something that happened at PoF release - is also very broken.

  • Namless.4028Namless.4028 Member ✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver.

    All classes have options scaling very equally with skill, not every build, man.

    Does P/p work in silver because the silver thief is making strong use of his actives, or is it working because spamming 3 is easy, but countering 3 spam is (relatively) more difficult.

    This is also my point, it's pointing out that it's not just all about what kind off defenses you have, as all the necro mains are trying to spin due to their perceived low skill scaling.

    Surely you have noticed that ever since the January 2016 patch, ArenaNet's method for balancing necro is to just shovel on more boon corrupt whenever the class is struggling. Actually I know you've noticed since you made comments toward such back when Scourge came out. Look at power necro. It didn't work post HoT, so Anet added a corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't good so Anet added corrupts to Nightfall. It still wasn't good so they added a second corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't nearly good so they added another 2 corrupts to Spiteful Spirit on a <50% proc, and then gave Corrupt Boon a 2nd charge for good measure.

    So what? Necro is designed to be strong at boon corruption, and it takes patience and timing to optimally take someone apart using corruption.

    You were expecting them to buff Necro with stealth/invulns/blocks/evades/teleports instead? Why is balancing Necro at its designed purpose met with such disdainful comments like 'shoveling on' corruption?

    it would be ok if we could play without babysitter, even if you take most tank build other classes outsustain you(cuz you do no harm to them). Its sad necro is only class bad at 1v1

    Lets see :
    Meta firebrand is worse at 1v1
    Meta thief builds are worse at 1v1
    ...
    It's almost as if there are builds which are designed to 1v1, and builds which are designed to do other things, and each have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's almost as if having a super mobile +1 build be the strongest 1v1 would be very broken. Just like how having the strongest teamfight DPS class also beat everything 1v1 - something that happened at PoF release - is also very broken.

    when were looking on the overall class there are builds for guardian that are good in 1v1 (or were) and also for thieves. there is no build for necro thats good in 1v1

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    @Namless.4028 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver.

    All classes have options scaling very equally with skill, not every build, man.

    Does P/p work in silver because the silver thief is making strong use of his actives, or is it working because spamming 3 is easy, but countering 3 spam is (relatively) more difficult.

    This is also my point, it's pointing out that it's not just all about what kind off defenses you have, as all the necro mains are trying to spin due to their perceived low skill scaling.

    Surely you have noticed that ever since the January 2016 patch, ArenaNet's method for balancing necro is to just shovel on more boon corrupt whenever the class is struggling. Actually I know you've noticed since you made comments toward such back when Scourge came out. Look at power necro. It didn't work post HoT, so Anet added a corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't good so Anet added corrupts to Nightfall. It still wasn't good so they added a second corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't nearly good so they added another 2 corrupts to Spiteful Spirit on a <50% proc, and then gave Corrupt Boon a 2nd charge for good measure.

    So what? Necro is designed to be strong at boon corruption, and it takes patience and timing to optimally take someone apart using corruption.

    You were expecting them to buff Necro with stealth/invulns/blocks/evades/teleports instead? Why is balancing Necro at its designed purpose met with such disdainful comments like 'shoveling on' corruption?

    it would be ok if we could play without babysitter, even if you take most tank build other classes outsustain you(cuz you do no harm to them). Its sad necro is only class bad at 1v1

    Lets see :
    Meta firebrand is worse at 1v1
    Meta thief builds are worse at 1v1
    ...
    It's almost as if there are builds which are designed to 1v1, and builds which are designed to do other things, and each have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's almost as if having a super mobile +1 build be the strongest 1v1 would be very broken. Just like how having the strongest teamfight DPS class also beat everything 1v1 - something that happened at PoF release - is also very broken.

    when were looking on the overall class there are builds for guardian that are good in 1v1 (or were) and also for thieves. there is no build for necro thats good in 1v1

    Necro in a pure 1v1 is stronger than most classes. There are particular reaper builds ran at high rating which are more or less duellist. It's only the moment they get +1'd that they really struggle. Which is exactly what chaith also stated in this thread.

    So again; necros not aware of high-end meta upset about their class not being able to do EVERYTHING without appreciating howmany things it actually does well.
    I happily discuss balance, but not with players who don't grasp the meta or how the game is played. If you don't know how the game is played and which counterplay each class has, then there's no point for you to discuss balance.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    So if we move beyond defenses, what about necro gives it equal playmaking or carrying power to classes like thief, FB, holo, Mesmer, etc? Because I don't see how necro is supposed to have equal impact on the outcome of the match, especially when the class is rotationally chained to teamfights and is extremely limited in matchups.

    Even in Plat I carry a lot more on reaper than on thief. I main both classes. In a lot of matchups thief is completely useless unlike a reaper who has an impact in pretty much every matchup. Climbing to plat in solo q on reaper is a lot easier than on thief.

    Btw. the build you were running in that video is bad as it ignores the strenghs of the class, which is corruptions. You played basically a worse version of a warrior (lots of blood magic regen, some burst). You also did not slot one single mobility skill (wurm, walk) or use the SR traitline which would boost your sustain by a significant amount. I think your video was not recoreded in bronze matches. And you were still doing fine!

    Taking Soul Reaping would reduce my sustain by a large degree, because I'd either have to give up either Spite or Blood Magic and both of those traitlines are more valuable. Giving up Martyr from Blood would literally kill the build, and giving up Spiteful Spirit and might generation from Spite is likewise a total kill.

    The build was designed to be able to completely shutout a scourge+FB combo, or any other condi build (such as the ubiquitous condi Mesmer.) The build fulfills it's purpose and I have found greater success on it than on traditional corruption focused builds.

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Namless.4028 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    If classes all scale equally with skill as you say, then the meta in platinum should be exactly the same as the meta in silver.

    All classes have options scaling very equally with skill, not every build, man.

    Does P/p work in silver because the silver thief is making strong use of his actives, or is it working because spamming 3 is easy, but countering 3 spam is (relatively) more difficult.

    This is also my point, it's pointing out that it's not just all about what kind off defenses you have, as all the necro mains are trying to spin due to their perceived low skill scaling.

    Surely you have noticed that ever since the January 2016 patch, ArenaNet's method for balancing necro is to just shovel on more boon corrupt whenever the class is struggling. Actually I know you've noticed since you made comments toward such back when Scourge came out. Look at power necro. It didn't work post HoT, so Anet added a corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't good so Anet added corrupts to Nightfall. It still wasn't good so they added a second corrupt to Unholy Feast and Spiteful Spirit. It still wasn't nearly good so they added another 2 corrupts to Spiteful Spirit on a <50% proc, and then gave Corrupt Boon a 2nd charge for good measure.

    So what? Necro is designed to be strong at boon corruption, and it takes patience and timing to optimally take someone apart using corruption.

    You were expecting them to buff Necro with stealth/invulns/blocks/evades/teleports instead? Why is balancing Necro at its designed purpose met with such disdainful comments like 'shoveling on' corruption?

    it would be ok if we could play without babysitter, even if you take most tank build other classes outsustain you(cuz you do no harm to them). Its sad necro is only class bad at 1v1

    Lets see :
    Meta firebrand is worse at 1v1
    Meta thief builds are worse at 1v1
    ...
    It's almost as if there are builds which are designed to 1v1, and builds which are designed to do other things, and each have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's almost as if having a super mobile +1 build be the strongest 1v1 would be very broken. Just like how having the strongest teamfight DPS class also beat everything 1v1 - something that happened at PoF release - is also very broken.

    when were looking on the overall class there are builds for guardian that are good in 1v1 (or were) and also for thieves. there is no build for necro thats good in 1v1

    Necro in a pure 1v1 is stronger than most classes. There are particular reaper builds ran at high rating which are more or less duellist. It's only the moment they get +1'd that they really struggle. Which is exactly what chaith also stated in this thread.

    So again; necros not aware of high-end meta upset about their class not being able to do EVERYTHING without appreciating howmany things it actually does well.
    I happily discuss balance, but not with players who don't grasp the meta or how the game is played. If you don't know how the game is played and which counterplay each class has, then there's no point for you to discuss balance.

    A necro that engages in a 1v1 will always be +1'ed. It's completely pointless to bring in the class's effectiveness in a situation that will never occur.

    All 1v1 classes must be able to 1vX, if they can't, they are worthless in the role.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is kind of why A-net threw their arms in the air said "we can't balance for this, so we'll give them cap points to fight over."

  • Something to think about is that every class has an answer to either high burst damage, crowd control centric openers or combo pieces, or both. It's just that they aren't always on lines that you want. For a comparison, Mesmer versus Thief.

    When Mesmer hits 50% life or lower, Mesmer summons a clone (which will absorb a non-cleave attack) and this has a 40 second cooldown. This is on the Dueling Line. For reference, the freebies are Vigor on crit, bleeding on crit from illusions, Fury when you strike opponents below 75% hp. Notice this synergy? Vigor and bleeding from critical hits, and from my understanding Illusions share your critical hit chance. The stealth on damage is fighting Phantasms having fury, and Pistol cdr+bleed on crit. Very little drawback to a clone + stealth against these other 2. The next tier offers blind on shatter (no trait cooldown), projectile reflect on dodge (2s reflect, 1.5s trait cooldown), or more damage from using Sword abilities and critically hitting. The final tier offers Critical hits doing more damage, blinding inflicting confusion, and free clones on dodge. Look at this level of synergy. On a defensive trait line. That can still go highly offensive. And don't forget the clone can still apply pressure with a condition build.

    Another one for Mesmer is that being crowd controlled inflicts the same crowd control on the afflicter on a 90 second cooldown. The freebies here are regeneration when health goes below 75%, protection when you get regeneration, and boons on Mesmer giving Mesmer more expertise/concentration.Tier 1 fights falling damage, gives stacking damage reduction, or reduce manipulation skills that will then grant reflect. The next tier is where the "Mirror of Anguish" exists, fighting Toughness->Condition Damage, and Staff cdr with protection on chaos armor. The last tier offers no trait cooldown mass condition/boon grant on interrupts, longer stealth with free boons in stealth, and stability + free boons on shatter. Again, this trait line is able to go where it wants with almost no drawback. You take the the CC reflect, get the stacking damage reduction, and then the last tier is so good you can choose on preference or playstyle.

    Now if you REALLY want to break stuns, you can do it on a 3 second cooldown. Mirage trait line- Elusive Mind. Yes it competes with a class specific trait (which would require it's own paragraph) and another class specific trait- but if you really wanted to break out of stuns, you can do it by dodging every 3 seconds. Technically you can do it twice in a row. Only drawback is -100% endurance regeneration. But you also have stealth, teleports, plenty of dazes/roots/stuns/slow, distortions, or stun breaks that allow you to stay on the offense.

    Now for Thief, in the Shadow Arts line we have at 50% life or lower, gain stealth and blind nearby enemies on a 40 second cooldown. Debatable better/worse. Freebies are that you revive faster and reviving grants stealth on 10s cooldown, stealth lasts longer IF granted by skills (reviving is a no go), and stealth reduces incoming attack damage (note: not condition). In the first tier we have the damage reaction trait that also goes on ICD if you take falling damage (welp, now it's bad. it's so easy to randomly take 30 falling damage in a lot of maps), smoke screen when downed (blinds and absorbs projectiles) and deception skills cdr, or remove burn/bleed/poison/torment/confusion while in stealth every 3 seconds (only one of those at a time). Unlike Mesmer, this 50% damage reaction passive actually competes against a near necessary talent- the removal of damaging conditions while in stealth. The next tier offers allies (not you) regeneration in stealth if you grant them stealth, stealing giving stealth AND move speed in stealth, or life siphon + cdr on venoms. The last tier offers blind on stealth + no critical hits while in stealth, health+initiative regen in stealth, or boon steal on stealth attacks + reduced damage from boonless opponents. This trait line is all defensive. And overly redundant. You cannot go offensive anywhere in this line unlike Mesmer's Dueling Trait line.

    The other defensive option is that being hit below 50% will grant evasion for 2 seconds on 40 second cooldown. Freebies here are Swiftness on dodge, vigor on successfully dodging an attack, and enhanced vigor + concentration. Tier 1 of traits is this damage reduction talent, vigor on heal skill use, or removing bleed/burn/poison/confusion/torment (all 5 at once) when struck below 75% hp and gain regeneration on a 16 second cooldown. Again, unlike Mesmer's choice- this one is hard. Yes, there is hide in Shadows but that's on a 30 second cooldown and requires an ability slot (you have 5 of those as opposed to 9 selectable/18 total traits). Tier 2 is while you are above 75% hp, striking a foe removes vulnerability/weakness/slow/or confusion on a 1 second cooldown which competes with sword does more damage + recharge steal every 20 seconds, or break stun and refill endurance every 30 seconds. Yet again- do I take removal of super harmful and impairing conditions, or break a stun. And you might think "well stun obviously" then you remember that some classes have multiple crowd controls in their combo. Unlike Mesmer who hits you back for it, this just says "wait, one second please so I can dodge". The last tier is heal on using 2-5 weapon abilities, gain regen+ initiative on successful dodges, or reduced effectiveness of chill/cripple/immobilize+ swiftness clears 1 of those.

    TLDR: Classes can't scale evenly when the trait lines are so blatantly different on power levels. And you can't say "well take the class abilities, weapons, and utilities into account" when these different power levels are also stronger on the stronger classes.

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