Can WvW server be made not pay to win. - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can WvW server be made not pay to win.

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Answers

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade:

    And yet you want them to turn on expansion classes for WvW for free. You want the new shirt for free because you bought several pairs of pants last year. Entitlement isn't difficult to understand!

    Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things.

    Free accounts come with restrictions that can be removed by purchasing a paid account. If the difference is "really nothing of significance", then why do you keep demanding that expansion classes get turned on for free in WvW? You destroyed your own argument.

    Using your example:

    I bought a shirt from them.
    They later come up to me and spray me with battery acid putting holes in my perfectly good shirt.
    Then they say...hey we'll sell you another shirt! After all that shirt wasn't meant to last.

    Oh...and comprehension skills for the win...that was comparing my current account to a free one. Bags and some areas you can't speak...no flying...thats about it.

    No one sprayed battery acid on your perfectly good shirt. It is still usable for 2012's fashion. No, you are not entitled to an upgrade to 2018 fashion for free just because you bought a shirt in 2012.

    If you hold onto that old shirt, it'll go retro and you can sell it to the hipsters for triple what you paid for it

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade:

    And yet you want them to turn on expansion classes for WvW for free. You want the new shirt for free because you bought several pairs of pants last year. Entitlement isn't difficult to understand!

    Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things.

    Free accounts come with restrictions that can be removed by purchasing a paid account. If the difference is "really nothing of significance", then why do you keep demanding that expansion classes get turned on for free in WvW? You destroyed your own argument.

    Using your example:

    I bought a shirt from them.
    They later come up to me and spray me with battery acid putting holes in my perfectly good shirt.
    Then they say...hey we'll sell you another shirt! After all that shirt wasn't meant to last.

    Oh...and comprehension skills for the win...that was comparing my current account to a free one. Bags and some areas you can't speak...no flying...thats about it.

    No one sprayed battery acid on your perfectly good shirt. It is still usable for 2012's fashion. No, you are not entitled to an upgrade to 2018 fashion for free just because you bought a shirt in 2012.

    If you hold onto that old shirt, it'll go retro and you can sell it to the hipsters for triple what you paid for it

    Maybe if it's acid washed..

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade:

    And yet you want them to turn on expansion classes for WvW for free. You want the new shirt for free because you bought several pairs of pants last year. Entitlement isn't difficult to understand!

    Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things.

    Free accounts come with restrictions that can be removed by purchasing a paid account. If the difference is "really nothing of significance", then why do you keep demanding that expansion classes get turned on for free in WvW? You destroyed your own argument.

    Using your example:

    I bought a shirt from them.
    They later come up to me and spray me with battery acid putting holes in my perfectly good shirt.
    Then they say...hey we'll sell you another shirt! After all that shirt wasn't meant to last.

    Oh...and comprehension skills for the win...that was comparing my current account to a free one. Bags and some areas you can't speak...no flying...thats about it.

    No one sprayed battery acid on your perfectly good shirt. It is still usable for 2012's fashion. No, you are not entitled to an upgrade to 2018 fashion for free just because you bought a shirt in 2012.

    If you hold onto that old shirt, it'll go retro and you can sell it to the hipsters for triple what you paid for it

    Yea, I had that thought too. Free skill balance patches making your shirt fashionable again!

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    If you can find a game that doesn't ask for any money whatsoever in order to be able to play it and you prefer that game's gameplay to GW2 then play that other game.

    If you aren't the customer, you may be the product. Things only get worse out there for freeloaders than gw2

    Missing the point. I paid MORE than someone who never has played the game and now buys the latest version.
    I didn't get any extra value because a free account is the same as mine now.
    Its like buying a ticket on a boat. You get 1/2 across the river and they ask for the same amount again. If you don't pay people start calling you a free loader.

    The game is supposed to make money off its transactions - ANET has actually lost money with me because I have done no transactions since they did this. I have 12 or 14 toons on my paid for account (I lose count because I have at least 4 free ones too.) How much is a character slot? Well now its 0 because you make an account.

    Previous to this I had bought 14700 gems. Thats like 175 bucks of gems. Further my original account was a digital deluxe.
    ANET throws away its good customers is the lesson they should learn.

    I'm such a freeloader!

    Just sounds like you poorly invested your money. Have you tried minesweeper?

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Michelin rated WvW guild since 2015. The gold standard. Never transferred, never reformed, adapting and reloading with or without Anet.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In my opinion of all free models GW2 has the best models.there are no random packs you can use real money to get advantages like some pvp games, and what you can buy is all just clothing graphics and stuff.A few stuff you can get that are really useful, like infinite pickaxe, but you don't have to pay a dime, just go farm gold and buy gems from the game store and then get the asthetical clothe you want BOOM.

    Happy wars is a pvp game i played that has/had a p2w scenario.The best gear you have to use real money to get so you have an advantage, and anyone who didn't was at a severe disadvantage, now that is what i call pay to win.

    Runescape for instance doesn't have nearly asmuch to do as guild wars 2, and the content is well done and varied, plus you get new fractal content in guild wars 2.

    Are you at a disadvantage vs the new elite specs? sure, because the designers need to give you a reason to buy the new shiny expansion.No designer in their right mind is going to make something they worked hard for for free in a expansion, because they need money to support themselves.

    Besides:its not just better elites, you get a new zone and new content and a new mount thing, so keep that in mind.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade:

    And yet you want them to turn on expansion classes for WvW for free. You want the new shirt for free because you bought several pairs of pants last year. Entitlement isn't difficult to understand!

    Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things.

    Free accounts come with restrictions that can be removed by purchasing a paid account. If the difference is "really nothing of significance", then why do you keep demanding that expansion classes get turned on for free in WvW? You destroyed your own argument.

    Using your example:

    I bought a shirt from them.
    They later come up to me and spray me with battery acid putting holes in my perfectly good shirt.
    Then they say...hey we'll sell you another shirt! After all that shirt wasn't meant to last.

    Oh...and comprehension skills for the win...that was comparing my current account to a free one. Bags and some areas you can't speak...no flying...thats about it.

    No one sprayed battery acid on your perfectly good shirt. It is still usable for 2012's fashion. No, you are not entitled to an upgrade to 2018 fashion for free just because you bought a shirt in 2012.

    If you hold onto that old shirt, it'll go retro and you can sell it to the hipsters for triple what you paid for it

    Yea, I had that thought too. Free skill balance patches making your shirt fashionable again!

    You mock me now, but when my DefLeppard: Hysteria tour sleeveless fringed jean jacket sells Cel and I are buying Anet. THEN we'll have balance (and guardian stealth)

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade:

    And yet you want them to turn on expansion classes for WvW for free. You want the new shirt for free because you bought several pairs of pants last year. Entitlement isn't difficult to understand!

    Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things.

    Free accounts come with restrictions that can be removed by purchasing a paid account. If the difference is "really nothing of significance", then why do you keep demanding that expansion classes get turned on for free in WvW? You destroyed your own argument.

    Using your example:

    I bought a shirt from them.
    They later come up to me and spray me with battery acid putting holes in my perfectly good shirt.
    Then they say...hey we'll sell you another shirt! After all that shirt wasn't meant to last.

    Oh...and comprehension skills for the win...that was comparing my current account to a free one. Bags and some areas you can't speak...no flying...thats about it.

    No one sprayed battery acid on your perfectly good shirt. It is still usable for 2012's fashion. No, you are not entitled to an upgrade to 2018 fashion for free just because you bought a shirt in 2012.

    If you hold onto that old shirt, it'll go retro and you can sell it to the hipsters for triple what you paid for it

    Yea, I had that thought too. Free skill balance patches making your shirt fashionable again!

    You mock me now, but when my DefLeppard: Hysteria tour sleeveless fringed jean jacket sells Cel and I are buying Anet. THEN we'll have balance (and guardian stealth)

    But will you make it P2W?!?!?!?!!

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    But will you make it P2W?!?!?!?!!

    Nobody will win but me

    But I'll have paid so yes

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Yes if you can spend real money JUST to get a power advantage, and NOTHING ELSE, that would be pay to win. But an expansion isn't just a power advantage. It's the continuation of the game. When you buy an MMO you're buying access, not a game. It's like buying a membership to a club. That's just the way it is. In the old days you had a sub. You'd just pay the sub. If you stopped paying the sub, you had to stop playing the game. So yeah, you had to pay to play, which I guess means you'd pay to win as well, since you couldn't play at all without paying. This is a very similar thing. It's a purchase instead of a sub, to let you keep playing. Because you're expected to move forward and continue with the game, it's okay to raise the power. Because you're buying an entire game, not just power. The power is incidental to what you're buying.

    Well I have to ask what if it's now an expected part of gaming that in some games you can buy power out of a cash shop for real money? What if players who play these games now expect to be able to progress and get advantages over players who don't pay in that way? They could turn your argument around and say it's not "pay to win" because they expect the games to work like that. Would you then say their expectations are irrelevant?

    If you only PvP, well, that doesn't matter. As I said it's like buying a Season ticket to Disney World, but only riding roller coasters. Not enough of them to make that worth it, and you'd have to decide it. Keep in mind, the game simply isn't meant to be free forever. It's a membership you're paying for...even if you're not paying for it monthly.

    It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF.

    Yes, it's expected that some games will sell power alone out of the cash shop and those games are pay to win. And calling them so you'll be using the name right. There are people who won't play those games because they don't want to play a pay to win game. But those that understand the funding system of MMOs will still buy an MMO that requires you to buy expansions because it's expected that if you're going to continue to play the game, you'll support it by buying those expansions.

    For people who don't minding paying to win, they'll know which games they are. Once every game is pay to win the term loses its original definition. We then can't decide between the original types of games, funded by expansions and the new games, funded by pay to win. There is a difference, even if you personally don't pay most of the game. It's like buying a car for the leather seats and then claiming you shouldn't have to pay for the motor. It's still a car. It's made to be a car. If you're just paying to sit in the seat, that's on you. This isn't a PvP game. It's a game. You pay for it and support it or all bets are off. Whether you don't play the rest of the game or not, the company is still paying the employees making and supporting the game.

    And make no mistake. If the PvE portion of this game was removed, there would be no game and you'd be playing nothing.

    I think I rest my case on this one.

    In the course of this discussion you have contradicted two of the key premises of your position though I'm not sure that you even realize it.

    Interesting talk though to be sure.

  • i normally roam core classes even though i own both expansions, going without expansion stats/runes would be the difficult part.

    Idaeus [Eo]

  • @Andalus.9476 said:
    GW2 was never made to be F2P. It was introduced to the game to let you know if you like it or not. If you do just buy the product. You should consider your free account as a demo version of the game. With just HoT or PoF you gain access to full version. Expansions gives you not only specs but the entire new story, new map, new bosses.
    P2W is when you pay for something that gives you advantage, no more no less. Expansions gives you not only specs but the entire new story, new map, new bosses.

    Honestly people should feel ashamed for asking expansions (core game atm) to be free.

    Really tired of new players not realizing that some of us paid for the game. Then an expansion came out which degraded our accounts in game content that we paid for. The only way to not be downgraded in power was to pay for the expansion - in old content. Nobody is asking for a freebie. We are asking that either you give away the new abilities in the old content OR you remove the abilities from the old content.

    And just so you know. There was no free version at the start. It became free partly as a political ploy to reduce the strength of arguments from players who got downgraded.

    I am just guessing...but I bet a bunch of people left on the first upgrade and that also was a reason to attract new players. Unfortunately what that decision did was grant them a huge amount of bad press.

  • I'm agree 100% with the OP. It IS PAY TO WIN, and the people who says the opposite are who bought the expansions.
    Class specializations are an empowerment that canntot be obtained in the game. We who only bought the core version in 2012 and dont want or cant buy the next 2 are being treated bad because we cant compete with pay to win specs in PVP and WvW.
    We deserve a vanilla server to play in equality of conditions. We that bought the game initially are being treated as bad as the stingy people that plays in f2p accounts and thats unfair.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axelteas.7192 said:
    I'm agree 100% with the OP. It IS PAY TO WIN, and the people who says the opposite are who bought the expansions.
    Class specializations are an empowerment that canntot be obtained in the game. We who only bought the core version in 2012 and dont want or cant buy the next 2 are being treated bad because we cant compete with pay to win specs in PVP and WvW.
    We deserve a vanilla server to play in equality of conditions. We that bought the game initially are being treated as bad as the stingy people that plays in f2p accounts and thats unfair.

    I agree with the first part but I don't agree with the conclusion.

  • @phs.6089 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    Really tired of new players not realizing that some of us paid for the game. Then an expansion came out which degraded our accounts in game content that we paid for. The only way to not be downgraded in power was to pay for the expansion - in old content. Nobody is asking for a freebie. We are asking that either you give away the new abilities in the old content OR you remove the abilities from the old content.

    I'm sure Arena would be happy to introduce subs to get access to elits and maps for those that don't own exapcs. Like TESO did. If there are many players like you.
    Giving you access to a paid product for free isn't an option

    Other comments look like i bought this car in 1999, then the model got modifications and enchantments. Why factory is treating us that bad? If we who bought original model in 1999 can't have those modifications, downgrade the rest of production line.

    Wrong analogy. Think what if the factory modifies the road to be only used by new models, while 1999 models would have problems and accidents driving in the new road? Thats what Anet has done!

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Seriously guys if you don't wanna get expacs ask Arena to introduce subs for a small fee per month. It's win-win.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axelteas.7192 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    Really tired of new players not realizing that some of us paid for the game. Then an expansion came out which degraded our accounts in game content that we paid for. The only way to not be downgraded in power was to pay for the expansion - in old content. Nobody is asking for a freebie. We are asking that either you give away the new abilities in the old content OR you remove the abilities from the old content.

    I'm sure Arena would be happy to introduce subs to get access to elits and maps for those that don't own exapcs. Like TESO did. If there are many players like you.
    Giving you access to a paid product for free isn't an option

    Other comments look like i bought this car in 1999, then the model got modifications and enchantments. Why factory is treating us that bad? If we who bought original model in 1999 can't have those modifications, downgrade the rest of production line.

    Wrong analogy. Think what if the factory modifies the road to be only used by new models, while 1999 models would have problems and accidents driving in the new road? Thats what Anet has done!

    Public roads are a form of common good which is to say they're non-excludable. Gw2 is not.

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @Axelteas.7192 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    Really tired of new players not realizing that some of us paid for the game. Then an expansion came out which degraded our accounts in game content that we paid for. The only way to not be downgraded in power was to pay for the expansion - in old content. Nobody is asking for a freebie. We are asking that either you give away the new abilities in the old content OR you remove the abilities from the old content.

    I'm sure Arena would be happy to introduce subs to get access to elits and maps for those that don't own exapcs. Like TESO did. If there are many players like you.
    Giving you access to a paid product for free isn't an option

    Other comments look like i bought this car in 1999, then the model got modifications and enchantments. Why factory is treating us that bad? If we who bought original model in 1999 can't have those modifications, downgrade the rest of production line.

    Wrong analogy. Think what if the factory modifies the road to be only used by new models, while 1999 models would have problems and accidents driving in the new road? Thats what Anet has done!

    Public roads are a form of common good which is to say they're non-excludable. Gw2 is not.

    Yes but you cant drive a Frod T in the highway because modern cars will kick you in the as, like core builds are kicked by overpowered expansion builds

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2018

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    And just so you know. There was no free version at the start. It became free partly as a political ploy to reduce the strength of arguments from players who got downgraded.

    ?????

    OT: Anet didn't properly address the whole "switching to a F2P model". Sure, they were in a hole with low revenue and such, but if the main differences between old purchased accounts and new free accounts are only map chat restrictions and lower character slots, that's unfair for veteran players.
    Some people say "the content you played from when you started to when it became F2P accounts for the price you paid", but Far Cry 3 was also released in 2012 and still isn't free.

    Nobody is asking for a freebie. We are asking that either you give away the new abilities in the old content OR you remove the abilities from the old content.

    That's selfish and alienates those who paid for the expansions. If we paid for mounts, I'm sure we'd want to use them in Lion's Arch, other major towns, and for map completion.
    What's included in the "old-content" category? PvP and WvW were part of the core game. Many players who bought the expansion bought it for the new specs to play with and fight against. The elite specializations were a breath of fresh air to a stagnant game.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axelteas.7192 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Axelteas.7192 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    Really tired of new players not realizing that some of us paid for the game. Then an expansion came out which degraded our accounts in game content that we paid for. The only way to not be downgraded in power was to pay for the expansion - in old content. Nobody is asking for a freebie. We are asking that either you give away the new abilities in the old content OR you remove the abilities from the old content.

    I'm sure Arena would be happy to introduce subs to get access to elits and maps for those that don't own exapcs. Like TESO did. If there are many players like you.
    Giving you access to a paid product for free isn't an option

    Other comments look like i bought this car in 1999, then the model got modifications and enchantments. Why factory is treating us that bad? If we who bought original model in 1999 can't have those modifications, downgrade the rest of production line.

    Wrong analogy. Think what if the factory modifies the road to be only used by new models, while 1999 models would have problems and accidents driving in the new road? Thats what Anet has done!

    Public roads are a form of common good which is to say they're non-excludable. Gw2 is not.

    Yes but you cant drive a Frod T in the highway because modern cars will kick you in the as, like core builds are kicked by overpowered expansion builds

    Yeah and that definitely appears to be their intention even though they originally talked about elites as sidegrades.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Paying a reasonable amount to enjoy the full features of the game is not pay 2 win in any way.

    Definitely didn't read the thread.

  • Funny I slaughter people in wvw with core builds ;3

    you've got: Whackamole warrior, Mortar engi/w nades, ret guardian,burn guardian, spiritual necro, Poison thief, staff ele,pew pew ranger, kitten heal Mesmer.

    All good builds covering different types of situations that crop up. In fact spiritual necro is the op's combo in the game for awhile crossing multiple game modes.

    So have you tried not running into the middle of a zerg and dieing? I see idiots doing that alot and its funny.

    PS: I've killed people on my ele with Conjure earth shield. Just for the fun of it. Its a wonder what a dodge roll can do to keep you from dieing alot of the time.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    this may segway from the original issue but most death i see when we raid has nothing to do with profession but more to do with the following:

    1. back pedalling
    2. turn with keyboard
    3. being in the wrong location
    4. standing on the enemy bubble

    to remedy:

    it's kind of our tradesecret but what the hey. ppl should know this by now

    1. key bind skills
    2. turn with mouse
    3. stay near the commander
    4. dodge
      5th one - you can msg me in game or send me mail to know.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • wanya.1697wanya.1697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2018

    @Larenc.1269 said:
    Funny I slaughter people in wvw with core builds ;3

    you've got: Whackamole warrior, Mortar engi/w nades, ret guardian,burn guardian, spiritual necro, Poison thief, staff ele,pew pew ranger, kitten heal Mesmer.

    All good builds covering different types of situations that crop up. In fact spiritual necro is the op's combo in the game for awhile crossing multiple game modes.

    So have you tried not running into the middle of a zerg and dieing? I see idiots doing that alot and its funny.

    PS: I've killed people on my ele with Conjure earth shield. Just for the fun of it. Its a wonder what a dodge roll can do to keep you from dieing alot of the time.

    that just shows you are a better player
    it´s imposible to win against non core builds if both players have the same skill
    as elite specs are just so much better that´s why there is so much complain in the forum about the power creep
    so it´s p2w simple as that

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2018

    @wanya.1697 said:
    that just shows you are a better player
    it´s imposible to win against non core builds if both players have the same skill
    as elite specs are just so much better that´s why there is so much complain in the forum about the power creep
    so it´s p2w simple as that

    mmm.. fb > than all other guard specs if in a group.

    herald > renegade or base right now

    solo - core warrior > berserker or spell. spell > all specs for group.

    damage reaper > base or scourge. group support scourge > all necro. solo core> others.

    chron as group support beats all mess. mirage > all mes as solo.

    weaver > all as damage.

    ...

    could be gear, food, bonuses, lag. lots of factors you know.

    but these things, no matter how small or big has a l2play part.

    and as game expands, yes, they will release new specs. it is not directly pay to win but maybe thinking out of the box.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2018

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Yes if you can spend real money JUST to get a power advantage, and NOTHING ELSE, that would be pay to win. But an expansion isn't just a power advantage. It's the continuation of the game. When you buy an MMO you're buying access, not a game. It's like buying a membership to a club. That's just the way it is. In the old days you had a sub. You'd just pay the sub. If you stopped paying the sub, you had to stop playing the game. So yeah, you had to pay to play, which I guess means you'd pay to win as well, since you couldn't play at all without paying. This is a very similar thing. It's a purchase instead of a sub, to let you keep playing. Because you're expected to move forward and continue with the game, it's okay to raise the power. Because you're buying an entire game, not just power. The power is incidental to what you're buying.

    Well I have to ask what if it's now an expected part of gaming that in some games you can buy power out of a cash shop for real money? What if players who play these games now expect to be able to progress and get advantages over players who don't pay in that way? They could turn your argument around and say it's not "pay to win" because they expect the games to work like that. Would you then say their expectations are irrelevant?

    If you only PvP, well, that doesn't matter. As I said it's like buying a Season ticket to Disney World, but only riding roller coasters. Not enough of them to make that worth it, and you'd have to decide it. Keep in mind, the game simply isn't meant to be free forever. It's a membership you're paying for...even if you're not paying for it monthly.

    It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF.

    Yes, it's expected that some games will sell power alone out of the cash shop and those games are pay to win. And calling them so you'll be using the name right. There are people who won't play those games because they don't want to play a pay to win game. But those that understand the funding system of MMOs will still buy an MMO that requires you to buy expansions because it's expected that if you're going to continue to play the game, you'll support it by buying those expansions.

    For people who don't minding paying to win, they'll know which games they are. Once every game is pay to win the term loses its original definition. We then can't decide between the original types of games, funded by expansions and the new games, funded by pay to win. There is a difference, even if you personally don't pay most of the game. It's like buying a car for the leather seats and then claiming you shouldn't have to pay for the motor. It's still a car. It's made to be a car. If you're just paying to sit in the seat, that's on you. This isn't a PvP game. It's a game. You pay for it and support it or all bets are off. Whether you don't play the rest of the game or not, the company is still paying the employees making and supporting the game.

    And make no mistake. If the PvE portion of this game was removed, there would be no game and you'd be playing nothing.

    I think I rest my case on this one.

    In the course of this discussion you have contradicted two of the key premises of your position though I'm not sure that you even realize it.

    Interesting talk though to be sure.

    The vast majority of people understand what I'm saying. If you really think expansions are fair game for pay to win, why not go post it to any MMORPG site and see what kind of response you get.

    What I'm saying isn't some mystical hidden lore, nor is it something I've made up in my basement. It's common knowledge.

    And not detailing a supposed flaw isn't going to win an argument. There's no case to defend here. No one calls WoW pay to win, but by your definition it is. Either we all follow the same rules or none of us do. Pay to win was invented to single out free games that sold power in the cash shop period. Not a guess. Not a rewriting of history. Until you can address that, there's really no point in even talking further about it.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Yes if you can spend real money JUST to get a power advantage, and NOTHING ELSE, that would be pay to win. But an expansion isn't just a power advantage. It's the continuation of the game. When you buy an MMO you're buying access, not a game. It's like buying a membership to a club. That's just the way it is. In the old days you had a sub. You'd just pay the sub. If you stopped paying the sub, you had to stop playing the game. So yeah, you had to pay to play, which I guess means you'd pay to win as well, since you couldn't play at all without paying. This is a very similar thing. It's a purchase instead of a sub, to let you keep playing. Because you're expected to move forward and continue with the game, it's okay to raise the power. Because you're buying an entire game, not just power. The power is incidental to what you're buying.

    Well I have to ask what if it's now an expected part of gaming that in some games you can buy power out of a cash shop for real money? What if players who play these games now expect to be able to progress and get advantages over players who don't pay in that way? They could turn your argument around and say it's not "pay to win" because they expect the games to work like that. Would you then say their expectations are irrelevant?

    If you only PvP, well, that doesn't matter. As I said it's like buying a Season ticket to Disney World, but only riding roller coasters. Not enough of them to make that worth it, and you'd have to decide it. Keep in mind, the game simply isn't meant to be free forever. It's a membership you're paying for...even if you're not paying for it monthly.

    It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF.

    Yes, it's expected that some games will sell power alone out of the cash shop and those games are pay to win. And calling them so you'll be using the name right. There are people who won't play those games because they don't want to play a pay to win game. But those that understand the funding system of MMOs will still buy an MMO that requires you to buy expansions because it's expected that if you're going to continue to play the game, you'll support it by buying those expansions.

    For people who don't minding paying to win, they'll know which games they are. Once every game is pay to win the term loses its original definition. We then can't decide between the original types of games, funded by expansions and the new games, funded by pay to win. There is a difference, even if you personally don't pay most of the game. It's like buying a car for the leather seats and then claiming you shouldn't have to pay for the motor. It's still a car. It's made to be a car. If you're just paying to sit in the seat, that's on you. This isn't a PvP game. It's a game. You pay for it and support it or all bets are off. Whether you don't play the rest of the game or not, the company is still paying the employees making and supporting the game.

    And make no mistake. If the PvE portion of this game was removed, there would be no game and you'd be playing nothing.

    I think I rest my case on this one.

    In the course of this discussion you have contradicted two of the key premises of your position though I'm not sure that you even realize it.

    Interesting talk though to be sure.

    The vast majority of people understand what I'm saying. If you really think expansions are fair game for pay to win, why not go post it to any MMORPG site and see what kind of response you get.

    What I'm saying isn't some mystical hidden lore, nor is it something I've made up in my basement. It's common knowledge.

    And not detailing a supposed flaw isn't going to win an argument. There's no case to defend here. No one calls WoW pay to win, but by your definition it is. Either we all follow the same rules or none of us do. Pay to win was invented to single out free games that sold power in the cash shop period. Not a guess. Not a rewriting of history. Until you can address that, there's really no point in even talking further about it.

    My argument is that the term as it's commonly used is inherently logically inconsistent and marred with arbitrary distinctions that quickly fall apart upon scrutiny and I think you have demonstrated that pretty clearly here in this discussion.

    I agree that there's no reason to discuss this further as it seems to me that I have nothing left to demonstrate to try to prove my point.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Yes if you can spend real money JUST to get a power advantage, and NOTHING ELSE, that would be pay to win. But an expansion isn't just a power advantage. It's the continuation of the game. When you buy an MMO you're buying access, not a game. It's like buying a membership to a club. That's just the way it is. In the old days you had a sub. You'd just pay the sub. If you stopped paying the sub, you had to stop playing the game. So yeah, you had to pay to play, which I guess means you'd pay to win as well, since you couldn't play at all without paying. This is a very similar thing. It's a purchase instead of a sub, to let you keep playing. Because you're expected to move forward and continue with the game, it's okay to raise the power. Because you're buying an entire game, not just power. The power is incidental to what you're buying.

    Well I have to ask what if it's now an expected part of gaming that in some games you can buy power out of a cash shop for real money? What if players who play these games now expect to be able to progress and get advantages over players who don't pay in that way? They could turn your argument around and say it's not "pay to win" because they expect the games to work like that. Would you then say their expectations are irrelevant?

    If you only PvP, well, that doesn't matter. As I said it's like buying a Season ticket to Disney World, but only riding roller coasters. Not enough of them to make that worth it, and you'd have to decide it. Keep in mind, the game simply isn't meant to be free forever. It's a membership you're paying for...even if you're not paying for it monthly.

    It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF.

    Yes, it's expected that some games will sell power alone out of the cash shop and those games are pay to win. And calling them so you'll be using the name right. There are people who won't play those games because they don't want to play a pay to win game. But those that understand the funding system of MMOs will still buy an MMO that requires you to buy expansions because it's expected that if you're going to continue to play the game, you'll support it by buying those expansions.

    For people who don't minding paying to win, they'll know which games they are. Once every game is pay to win the term loses its original definition. We then can't decide between the original types of games, funded by expansions and the new games, funded by pay to win. There is a difference, even if you personally don't pay most of the game. It's like buying a car for the leather seats and then claiming you shouldn't have to pay for the motor. It's still a car. It's made to be a car. If you're just paying to sit in the seat, that's on you. This isn't a PvP game. It's a game. You pay for it and support it or all bets are off. Whether you don't play the rest of the game or not, the company is still paying the employees making and supporting the game.

    And make no mistake. If the PvE portion of this game was removed, there would be no game and you'd be playing nothing.

    I think I rest my case on this one.

    In the course of this discussion you have contradicted two of the key premises of your position though I'm not sure that you even realize it.

    Interesting talk though to be sure.

    The vast majority of people understand what I'm saying. If you really think expansions are fair game for pay to win, why not go post it to any MMORPG site and see what kind of response you get.

    What I'm saying isn't some mystical hidden lore, nor is it something I've made up in my basement. It's common knowledge.

    And not detailing a supposed flaw isn't going to win an argument. There's no case to defend here. No one calls WoW pay to win, but by your definition it is. Either we all follow the same rules or none of us do. Pay to win was invented to single out free games that sold power in the cash shop period. Not a guess. Not a rewriting of history. Until you can address that, there's really no point in even talking further about it.

    My argument is that the term as it's commonly used is inherently logically inconsistent and marred with arbitrary distinctions that quickly fall apart upon scrutiny and I think you have demonstrated that pretty clearly here in this discussion.

    I agree that there's no reason to discuss this further as it seems to me that I have nothing left to demonstrate to try to prove my point.

    The original definition isn't arbitrary. It's the original definition. The new definition, that's arbitrary. You're the one changing it from it's original intention, not me. It had a definitive purpose. You're trying to repurpose it. Without good reason, and you've yet to give any reason, you have no argument.

    The original definition is based on entirely arbitrary distinctions and inconsistent logic as i believe you have clearly shown in your attempted rebuttals to my original contentions.

    You have subsequently contradicted every one of your major premises as I outlined them earlier and which you seemed to agree to at the time.

    I believe i presented my argument several times very clearly and succinctly in the course of our discussion. If you still don't know what it is i honestly don't know how to help you here.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2018

    For the record im not saying that all expansions for all games are necessarily p2w.

    I'm saying that I agree with the op's assertion that these particular expansions have been structured as p2w because of the elite specs and even then only because the elite specs have consistently offered competitive advantages against those who do not have them which i think is inarguably the case.

  • Appears that some are salty they can't fight vs expansion classes, whether they can't play the classes to learn weaknesses, or because they are unable to get the expansion for their own reasons and feel its unfair that they cannot when others can.

    If its the fact you are getting beat, let me know and I will be more than happy to go over some weaknesses and strategies of these classes you have issues with.

    If its that you cannot obtain any of the expansions for you own personal reasons, then look at it this way....I am a streamer on twitch. I have people that subscribe to me. Because they subscribe to me, they pay money for such. Because they do such, they get perks. Whether it be a special sub badge, special emoticons, sub priority for things...whichever. They get a small special treatment in some/way/shape or form because they are spending the money. Its like if a viewer complains that its not fair they get these perks.

    You wouldn't go to Costco and see a beautiful Smart TV thats $3000 and complain that it gives a better viewing experience and you are unable to get it for whatever personal reasons, so they shouldn't be able to sell it if all TV's are not smart TV's.

    People pay for percs. Whether its mounts, gliding or specs. If its teh specs you are complaining about, its not because its p2w, its potentially due to balancing reasons.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Appears that some are salty they can't fight vs expansion classes, whether they can't play the classes to learn weaknesses, or because they are unable to get the expansion for their own reasons and feel its unfair that they cannot when others can.

    If its the fact you are getting beat, let me know and I will be more than happy to go over some weaknesses and strategies of these classes you have issues with.

    If its that you cannot obtain any of the expansions for you own personal reasons, then look at it this way....I am a streamer on twitch. I have people that subscribe to me. Because they subscribe to me, they pay money for such. Because they do such, they get perks. Whether it be a special sub badge, special emoticons, sub priority for things...whichever. They get a small special treatment in some/way/shape or form because they are spending the money. Its like if a viewer complains that its not fair they get these perks.

    You wouldn't go to Costco and see a beautiful Smart TV thats $3000 and complain that it gives a better viewing experience and you are unable to get it for whatever personal reasons, so they shouldn't be able to sell it if all TV's are not smart TV's.

    People pay for percs. Whether its mounts, gliding or specs. If its teh specs you are complaining about, its not because its p2w, its potentially due to balancing reasons.

    I'm gonna assume this one is addressed to the op.

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Appears that some are salty they can't fight vs expansion classes, whether they can't play the classes to learn weaknesses, or because they are unable to get the expansion for their own reasons and feel its unfair that they cannot when others can.

    If its the fact you are getting beat, let me know and I will be more than happy to go over some weaknesses and strategies of these classes you have issues with.

    If its that you cannot obtain any of the expansions for you own personal reasons, then look at it this way....I am a streamer on twitch. I have people that subscribe to me. Because they subscribe to me, they pay money for such. Because they do such, they get perks. Whether it be a special sub badge, special emoticons, sub priority for things...whichever. They get a small special treatment in some/way/shape or form because they are spending the money. Its like if a viewer complains that its not fair they get these perks.

    You wouldn't go to Costco and see a beautiful Smart TV thats $3000 and complain that it gives a better viewing experience and you are unable to get it for whatever personal reasons, so they shouldn't be able to sell it if all TV's are not smart TV's.

    People pay for percs. Whether its mounts, gliding or specs. If its teh specs you are complaining about, its not because its p2w, its potentially due to balancing reasons.

    I'm gonna assume this one is addressed to the op.

    Where I did not quote anyone, that would be a safe assumption :)

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Aury.1367Aury.1367 Member ✭✭✭

    WvW people want you to max out your usage. No one cares what you choose in open world PvE, you can also use whatever you want in WvW roaming. But in blobs/GvGs its always: Usage + performance first. People in WvW (And i think generally in all modes) dont care what expansion you have bought. Its only about usage + performance. If your class has no viability in WvW, use another, adapt or handle getting kicked out of squad.

    GW2 is a game which is almost free. Youre not forced to buy expansions (which is like 20-30€ each two years). So if you decide not to buy expansions for that ridiculous small amount of money (Sorry but, if you cant get 20€ each two years, you shouldnt be playing on the computer but thats just my opinion) you should handle that others have an advantage.

    And just in case you decide to not buy any expansion:

    • Core warrior still OP for roaming
    • Core Ele still okay for blobbing
  • At least they could make expansion classes fun to play or boost vanilla specs.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe playable choya can be p2w it will be awesome but before they do it we need a month long wvw event where everyone is a choya so when you get to buy playable choya it can be p2w. Yes I love this idea so we have it where you explode on death so we get to see which side explodes the most choya.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    For the record im not saying that all expansions for all games are necessarily p2w.

    I'm saying that I agree with the op's assertion that these particular expansions have been structured as p2w because of the elite specs and even then only because the elite specs have consistently offered competitive advantages against those who do not have them which i think is inarguably the case.

    And I'm saying it's not true, because EVERY expansion is structured that way for every MMO and it's never counted before. You're changing the narrative by taking this out of context.

    If WoW gives you an advantage for having an expansion for 12 years and no one is saying WOW is pay to win, then why is suddenly this game pay to win, when it's doing what MMOs have been doing from the beginning. We never even had the term P2W until free to play MMOs started coming out and doing something different. That something different was selling power, alone, by itself, in the cash shop.

    We all expected to have to buy expansions to keep current and stay with the game. That was a normal, expected part of MMOs, so no one counted it. If you're going to start counting it, you have to also say WoW is pay to win. You'd probably have to say every MMO is pay to win. And once you do that, I'm asking again, what value does the term have.

    Keep in mind the term was already defined back then. If you want to change the definition you need a different term, that's all. If you want to say that you need to buy expansions to be current in an MMO and be as powerful as people who have the expansion, well that's true of all expansions.

    Exactly...

    And some context for those that don’t know...

    World of Warcraft was released November 23, 2004.

    The Burning Crusade was released on January 16, 2007.

    Wrath of the Lich King was released on November 13, 2008.

    Cataclysm was released on December 7, 2010.

    Mists of Pandaria was released on September 25, 2012.

    Warlords of Draenor was released on November 13, 2014.

    Legion was released on August 30, 2016.

    Battle for Azeroth was released on August 14, 2018.

    World of Warcraft max level was 60 on release. Battle for Azeroth max level is now 110.

    You had to buy expansions to gain access to increased levels, better gear, new races, new classes, new content, new zones... and a ton more... All while having to pay a monthly fee regardless of what expansion you had...

    ...Long story short for the “pay to win” crew... Spend $30 every couple years to update your game to support a fair and good game company... Let your suggestion stand alone without the labels that paint xpac updates as some unethical cash grab practice.

    Sorry but no...you have made an invalid argument.
    See as a WvW player that plays almost all of his time on the middle map. - There was no expansion at all. Few slight map alterations, but nothing close to an expansion. Really just design/bug fixes.

    Now to use your analogy of WoW.
    Say I PVP'ed on WoW just like I do with GW2 and locked my pvp toon to 25 or whatever that magic level is.
    I twink out my character and buy stuff off the AH to do so.
    None of the expansions you mention would DOWN grade my character because I have access to all the same character skills as somebody who purchased all the expansion packs. In fact friends could give me the very best level 25 gear.

    So thank you very much for proving my point. I have no option like that in GW2. WoW is not pay to win BTW as I just proved. GW2is totally P2W because you have no alternatives. Sorry but themz the facts. You don't like it encourage the GW2 team to make changes. My suggestion is to use desert maps as expansion maps and other maps as "classic". Then the maps which have had NO expansion on them are as they were and all is even expansion or not.

    BTW: Had a fantastic night with my ranger - I'm so awesome! No deaths. A good 5 stomps and maybe 50 downs and finished at range for a bag.

    Some peoples hopes of me getting rolled are terribly unfulfilled! lol

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    For the record im not saying that all expansions for all games are necessarily p2w.

    I'm saying that I agree with the op's assertion that these particular expansions have been structured as p2w because of the elite specs and even then only because the elite specs have consistently offered competitive advantages against those who do not have them which i think is inarguably the case.

    And I'm saying it's not true, because EVERY expansion is structured that way for every MMO and it's never counted before. You're changing the narrative by taking this out of context.

    If WoW gives you an advantage for having an expansion for 12 years and no one is saying WOW is pay to win, then why is suddenly this game pay to win, when it's doing what MMOs have been doing from the beginning. We never even had the term P2W until free to play MMOs started coming out and doing something different. That something different was selling power, alone, by itself, in the cash shop.

    We all expected to have to buy expansions to keep current and stay with the game. That was a normal, expected part of MMOs, so no one counted it. If you're going to start counting it, you have to also say WoW is pay to win. You'd probably have to say every MMO is pay to win. And once you do that, I'm asking again, what value does the term have.

    Keep in mind the term was already defined back then. If you want to change the definition you need a different term, that's all. If you want to say that you need to buy expansions to be current in an MMO and be as powerful as people who have the expansion, well that's true of all expansions.

    Exactly...

    And some context for those that don’t know...

    World of Warcraft was released November 23, 2004.

    The Burning Crusade was released on January 16, 2007.

    Wrath of the Lich King was released on November 13, 2008.

    Cataclysm was released on December 7, 2010.

    Mists of Pandaria was released on September 25, 2012.

    Warlords of Draenor was released on November 13, 2014.

    Legion was released on August 30, 2016.

    Battle for Azeroth was released on August 14, 2018.

    World of Warcraft max level was 60 on release. Battle for Azeroth max level is now 110.

    You had to buy expansions to gain access to increased levels, better gear, new races, new classes, new content, new zones... and a ton more... All while having to pay a monthly fee regardless of what expansion you had...

    ...Long story short for the “pay to win” crew... Spend $30 every couple years to update your game to support a fair and good game company... Let your suggestion stand alone without the labels that paint xpac updates as some unethical cash grab practice.

    Sorry but no...you have made an invalid argument.
    See as a WvW player that plays almost all of his time on the middle map. - There was no expansion at all. Few slight map alterations, but nothing close to an expansion. Really just design/bug fixes.

    Now to use your analogy of WoW.
    Say I PVP'ed on WoW just like I do with GW2 and locked my pvp toon to 25 or whatever that magic level is.
    I twink out my character and buy stuff off the AH to do so.
    None of the expansions you mention would DOWN grade my character because I have access to all the same character skills as somebody who purchased all the expansion packs. In fact friends could give me the very best level 25 gear.

    So thank you very much for proving my point. I have no option like that in GW2. WoW is not pay to win BTW as I just proved. GW2is totally P2W because you have no alternatives. Sorry but themz the facts. You don't like it encourage the GW2 team to make changes. My suggestion is to use desert maps as expansion maps and other maps as "classic". Then the maps which have had NO expansion on them are as they were and all is even expansion or not.

    BTW: Had a fantastic night with my ranger - I'm so awesome! No deaths. A good 5 stomps and maybe 50 downs and finished at range for a bag.

    Some peoples hopes of me getting rolled are terribly unfulfilled! lol

    He didn't prove your point since WOW has maps that have open world PvP in them, and on PvP servers, you're at a disadvantage if you're lower level. You're just ignoring anything in the game or any argument that doesn't support your cause.

    Yea, like it was already explained why he wasn't downgraded, but he'll continue to say it.

    • You can complete all the old content without needing to upgrade: not a downgrade.
    • Free skill balance patches that don't need to be paid for allow for some core non-expansion builds to compete against expansion specs.
  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    wow's pve and pvp servers has been merged fyi. you only need to turn on pvp.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    For the record im not saying that all expansions for all games are necessarily p2w.

    I'm saying that I agree with the op's assertion that these particular expansions have been structured as p2w because of the elite specs and even then only because the elite specs have consistently offered competitive advantages against those who do not have them which i think is inarguably the case.

    And I'm saying it's not true, because EVERY expansion is structured that way for every MMO and it's never counted before. You're changing the narrative by taking this out of context.

    If WoW gives you an advantage for having an expansion for 12 years and no one is saying WOW is pay to win, then why is suddenly this game pay to win, when it's doing what MMOs have been doing from the beginning. We never even had the term P2W until free to play MMOs started coming out and doing something different. That something different was selling power, alone, by itself, in the cash shop.

    We all expected to have to buy expansions to keep current and stay with the game. That was a normal, expected part of MMOs, so no one counted it. If you're going to start counting it, you have to also say WoW is pay to win. You'd probably have to say every MMO is pay to win. And once you do that, I'm asking again, what value does the term have.

    Keep in mind the term was already defined back then. If you want to change the definition you need a different term, that's all. If you want to say that you need to buy expansions to be current in an MMO and be as powerful as people who have the expansion, well that's true of all expansions.

    Exactly...

    And some context for those that don’t know...

    World of Warcraft was released November 23, 2004.

    The Burning Crusade was released on January 16, 2007.

    Wrath of the Lich King was released on November 13, 2008.

    Cataclysm was released on December 7, 2010.

    Mists of Pandaria was released on September 25, 2012.

    Warlords of Draenor was released on November 13, 2014.

    Legion was released on August 30, 2016.

    Battle for Azeroth was released on August 14, 2018.

    World of Warcraft max level was 60 on release. Battle for Azeroth max level is now 110.

    You had to buy expansions to gain access to increased levels, better gear, new races, new classes, new content, new zones... and a ton more... All while having to pay a monthly fee regardless of what expansion you had...

    ...Long story short for the “pay to win” crew... Spend $30 every couple years to update your game to support a fair and good game company... Let your suggestion stand alone without the labels that paint xpac updates as some unethical cash grab practice.

    Sorry but no...you have made an invalid argument.
    See as a WvW player that plays almost all of his time on the middle map. - There was no expansion at all. Few slight map alterations, but nothing close to an expansion. Really just design/bug fixes.

    Now to use your analogy of WoW.
    Say I PVP'ed on WoW just like I do with GW2 and locked my pvp toon to 25 or whatever that magic level is.
    I twink out my character and buy stuff off the AH to do so.
    None of the expansions you mention would DOWN grade my character because I have access to all the same character skills as somebody who purchased all the expansion packs. In fact friends could give me the very best level 25 gear.

    So thank you very much for proving my point. I have no option like that in GW2. WoW is not pay to win BTW as I just proved. GW2is totally P2W because you have no alternatives. Sorry but themz the facts. You don't like it encourage the GW2 team to make changes. My suggestion is to use desert maps as expansion maps and other maps as "classic". Then the maps which have had NO expansion on them are as they were and all is even expansion or not.

    BTW: Had a fantastic night with my ranger - I'm so awesome! No deaths. A good 5 stomps and maybe 50 downs and finished at range for a bag.

    Some peoples hopes of me getting rolled are terribly unfulfilled! lol

    Again. In WoW you pay subs to play, stop ignoring this fact. It is 3rd time i bring up this argument and all you just prefer not to note. You pay-you play. So is it P2W?

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Orakus.1863Orakus.1863 Member
    edited September 17, 2018

    I'm a bit confused with some of the people that say this is pay to win, yet on their comments they keep saying that they kill other HoT/PoF players, or as you can see below you die once an hour etc... Its seems to me that your base class is still viable based on your comments, so by definition not pay to win with POF +HOT.

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    So you might get the feeling that I'm frustrated and dying a bunch. Well its true. But what is a bunch for me? Once an hour. Used to be once 4 hours. Why am I dying more now. Well I used to be able to compete against a good player and win most of the time. If I couldn't win I'd at least survive. Now however a ranger has 3 invisibility skills. How many does my base one have? One. Do I hit harder because of less skills? Nope. Do I have more heals? Nope he does? What about movement skills. Again he has way better ones.

    Well thats just rangers...NOPE...

    thief..same have 2
    mesmer...same have 2
    warriar...same have 1
    Guardian...same have 1
    engineer...same have 2
    elementalist have 1

    So you see I'm not some noob that is getting owned and crying. There are REAL problems. Don't believe me or disagree? Roll a base class and post your unedited 4 hours session. It will be a target fest most likely or a structure hugging event.

    Are there balance issues that moved your death timer from 4 to 1 ? Sure and ANET really needs to work there, I for one do not like to be OS by someone I can not see until I'm down ( deadeye in WvW ). But tell me which perfect game does not have balance issues please I'll go play that.

    As I red WOW a bunch of times on posts, and level brackets that some people like and you can be competitive with base game still etc. In pandaria MoP you could own level 10 to 70 brackets with a monk and guess what you needed the expansion to play that class , oh and on top of that you needed the expansions coming before mist of pandaria. Same wotlk and brackets from 51+ to max with death knight etc. IMHO GW2 model is as fair as you can get on the industry and far from P2W.

    This said I think that the problematic is not the P2W aspect but your idea for core only WvW. Which I believe is a good one and I hope they implement something like this, or better yet give us the freedom to do that on our own with alliances maybe? For example three alliances (only core members) can choose to fight each other.
    I hope they do this for sure but I will also say that as someone who bought core+HOT+POF, they do not put this on a priority before any new content we can have in game that would bring novelty and not a time travel on the early days. I think most of the players in WvW have the expansions (at least on my server) and most of them do not really care for core WvW maps but something really new for WvW that will revitalize the scene and bring a breath of fresh air to it.

    At the end of the day I think it will be a business decision, put resources on customers not happy with our last content and try to get them back without Anet earning anything out of their daily work on it. Or keep the people that like PoF , maybe a Cantha Xpack (yes still dreaming for a Kurzick armor in GW2) or any new content on a faster schedule if possible happy. If I was Anet, I would not put any effort in core WvW only and certainly not put any good valuable programmers on it, but who knows maybe they will...

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    Eeeerm, you know the game is Buy 2 Play, right?

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Wow has level brackets for battleground pvp, or max level for arena, and they also have the new open world pvp mode which has level scaling.
    A person without an expansion won't be playing into the new expansion levels, with those that do.
    They also revamp classes from top to bottom which everyone has access to, not just add separate specs that only expansion people have access to.
    Unlike gw2 which allows everyone free/core/hot/pof to join wvw and spvp in one massive pool of players, which in turn allows the new specs which are usually overtuned, to be dominating, which in turn makes anyone without the latest expansion to call it p2w.

    also wow has monthly subscription, so wow is p2w, if you don't pay subs, you can't play and you lose to those that can pay

    You can buy tokens for gold which can be used for subs, I haven't paid for subs the last 6 months I've been in wow and another 4 tokens in my bags. Also that's not pay to win that's pay to play.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

  • @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Eeeerm, you know the game is Buy 2 Play, right?

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Wow has level brackets for battleground pvp, or max level for arena, and they also have the new open world pvp mode which has level scaling.
    A person without an expansion won't be playing into the new expansion levels, with those that do.
    They also revamp classes from top to bottom which everyone has access to, not just add separate specs that only expansion people have access to.
    Unlike gw2 which allows everyone free/core/hot/pof to join wvw and spvp in one massive pool of players, which in turn allows the new specs which are usually overtuned, to be dominating, which in turn makes anyone without the latest expansion to call it p2w.

    also wow has monthly subscription, so wow is p2w, if you don't pay subs, you can't play and you lose to those that can pay

    You can buy tokens for gold which can be used for subs, I haven't paid for subs the last 6 months I've been in wow and another 4 tokens in my bags. Also that's not pay to win that's pay to play.

    As you like wow brackets for their fairness to vanilla (core game owners) , whoever got WOTLK and a DK destroyed brackets who did not have the xpack, same with monk when it came out, so WOW is P2W as well...

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Orakus.1863 said:
    As you like wow brackets for their fairness to vanilla (core game owners) , whoever got WOTLK and a DK destroyed brackets who did not have the xpack, same with monk when it came out, so WOW is P2W as well...

    Deathknights start at 55, they were only in the 55-70 brackets, 71-80 were expansion players only, the expansion players eventually don't play with the old ones, which I originally stated. They also were heavily restricted to already having a level 55 on the server, plus only 1 dk was allowed to be created on your account per server, eventually the restrictions were lifted. Monks started from level 1 but again eventually they go into the expansion levels too, away from those that do not pick up the expansion, most new races or classes to a game need to level up even in gw2 so that can't really be avoided.

    That's not an excuse for making them overpowered though, and blizzard does the same mistake as anet and makes their brand new classes op for like the first 6-12 months, I mean they want to sell expansions too so not surprising if they're over tuned for the first period. But here's the the thing, they've only brought out 2 new classes in 14 years and they tend to constantly rebalance skills on classes, like today dk's are one of the top tanks but middle of the pack with the 2 dps specs, same with monks, every class gets their period in the sun. Gw2 has had 1 new class and 18 elite specs over a period of 3 years of it's 6 years, and refuse to do proper balance when each and every one of those are in the same pool for spvp and wvw.

    If gw2 had "brackets" in that elite specs had their own separate pool of players this wouldn't be a problem, but there isn't enough players for them to do this and not have humongous queue times. These elite specs were originally intended to be different ways to play the class while still having similar power levels to their other specs which includes core, but they've turned it into play the recent ones or have a hard time.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

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