The plot has not been this bad since War with Scarlet (SPOILERS) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The plot has not been this bad since War with Scarlet (SPOILERS)

Rikimaru.7890Rikimaru.7890 Member ✭✭✭

PoF is arguably better than HoT, but the story had made a turn for the worst since it came out. To better explain I will point out a few plot points that irk me the most.

Killing Balthazar with Sohothin
Yes that makes a ton of sense - killing the God of Fire with a firey sword. I mean this is like trying to drown a fish. More over Sohothin was by lore Balthazar's own sword once, also Balthazar himself reignited it when it lost it's power inside The Mists. If this was taken seriously then once we reach Balthazar he would be like: Oh nice sword you got there! snaps fingers and Sohophin loses all it's powers Woops how did that happen?

Getting the Awakened drunk
Yes we all know undead corpses can imbibe alcohol. They don't eat, sleep, breathe, but getting drunk - sure that works. I mean it's not like they lack a digestive tract or bloodstream now is it?

The Ghost Army
Do you mean to tell me that ghosts can actually do whatever they want? Then why do they always hang out near their resting place? I mean even if we assume only certain ghosts can do that, then there still should be some ghosts walking freely around the world. When Palawa Joko took over Elona the Awakened and the living started to coexist with one another, so there should also be some ghosts that continue to roam among the living.

Kralkatorrik inside The Mists
I have mixed feeling about this one since it does raise the tension up a lot, however it should be game over at this point. I mean The Mists have unlimited magic so I don't see how we can hope to stop Kralkatorrik at this point. It doesn't make sense that he is even interested in attacking Tyria at this point, since all the magic Tyria has to offer is nothing but a fraction of what The Mists have to offer. Are we are suppose to lure Kralkatorrik out of The Mists? Why would he ever leave them? He wants to kill Aurene sure but I'm pretty sure fighting inside The Mists would be a better option for him. So it's more logical for Kralkatorrik to wait for us to come to him, since we have no choice anyway, than to risk it and go back to Tyria.
It also makes no sense why he would want Balthazar's sword so badly, not only do The Mists have way more magic to offer but also the Sword lost it's power when we found it and had to reignite it. One of the methods to do it was using a brandstorm lightning, which in reality would be Kralkatorrik's own power, so I really don't see how the sword would be so attractive to him.

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Comments

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Weren't we told by Kormir herself that the sword would work? "The means are already within your grasp", or something like that?

  • I'm not sure magic is something you can just take back like that in this universe. Didn't Balthazar reignite the sword for the purpose of breaking something unbreakable anyway?

  • Fight fire with fire is a phrase that comes to mind, and like has been said magic doesn't work like that and we fight a fallen Balthazar anyway. So any connection to the sword doesn't exist anymore.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rikimaru.7890 said:
    PoF is arguably better than HoT, but the story had made a turn for the worst since it came out. To better explain I will point out a few plot points that irk me the most.

    Killing Balthazar with Sohothin
    Yes that makes a ton of sense - killing the God of Fire with a firey sword. I mean this is like trying to drown a fish. More over Sohothin was by lore Balthazar's own sword once, also Balthazar himself reignited it when it lost it's power inside The Mists. If this was taken seriously then once we reach Balthazar he would be like: Oh nice sword you got there! snaps fingers and Sohophin loses all it's powers Woops how did that happen?

    Getting the Awakened drunk
    Yes we all know undead corpses can imbibe alcohol. They don't eat, sleep, breathe, but getting drunk - sure that works. I mean it's not like they lack a digestive tract or bloodstream now is it?

    The Ghost Army
    Do you mean to tell me that ghosts can actually do whatever they want? Then why do they always hang out near their resting place? I mean even if we assume only certain ghosts can do that, then there still should be some ghosts walking freely around the world. When Palawa Joko took over Elona the Awakened and the living started to coexist with one another, so there should also be some ghosts that continue to roam among the living.

    Kralkatorrik inside The Mists
    I have mixed feeling about this one since it does raise the tension up a lot, however it should be game over at this point. I mean The Mists have unlimited magic so I don't see how we can hope to stop Kralkatorrik at this point. It doesn't make sense that he is even interested in attacking Tyria at this point, since all the magic Tyria has to offer is nothing but a fraction of what The Mists have to offer. Are we are suppose to lure Kralkatorrik out of The Mists? Why would he ever leave them? He wants to kill Aurene sure but I'm pretty sure fighting inside The Mists would be a better option for him. So it's more logical for Kralkatorrik to wait for us to come to him, since we have no choice anyway, than to risk it and go back to Tyria.
    It also makes no sense why he would want Balthazar's sword so badly, not only do The Mists have way more magic to offer but also the Sword lost it's power when we found it and had to reignite it. One of the methods to do it was using a brandstorm lightning, which in reality would be Kralkatorrik's own power, so I really don't see how the sword would be so attractive to him.

    You can also kill Balthazar with your weapons, there is even an achievement if you do so. :D

    Kormir could mean anything, maybe Sohothin, maybe the Spear, and most likely she meant Aurene. @Westenev.5289

    They are not Zhaitan's Risen, they were Awakened just after their death, so their livers, hearts etc were kinda Awakened with their body. I think. :D

    Those ghosts had a very easy road from the world of the Living and the Mists- portal to the Mists in the Tomb. So they most likely can stay in the world for a bit, but must return to the Mists. Maybe because their death was traumatic, they can travel between the worlds more freely?

    It was not only the sword imo, but also Glint/her echo that was flying above us to additionally draw his attention.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    The storyline definitely lacks some explanations but its by far better than what we had before. Certain things should be a bit better explained or otherwise they seem like random plot devices. Sure, we can make viable speculations but honestly whenever the game makes me speculate too much my Mass Effect 3 traumatic disorder triggers and I start to tire of the game's story.

    I have to agree with most of the things you have said, especially Sohotin. Sure there are possible explanations for that but they are all pure speculation. Especially since Sohotin flew into the Mists right next to Balthazar (make what you want out of it).

    My biggest issue with Kralk in the Mist is how is him leaving Tyria different than us killing him from the perspective of the "balance" and dragons role in magical central banking system.

    Problem is that (in my experience) sensical stories dont make suspensful stories. Or better said, its hard to make a story thats both suspensful, dramatic, intriguing and respectful of the previous lore because strict continuation implies predictibility.

    But overall, i would say that exposition is far better than it was previously. Story is presented in a more structured and articulated way with characters providing more details and personal impressions. Story itself I personally find meh. I seriously still don't understand why would writers create entire PoF storyline and Joko storyline. These two feel like very long filler episodes. But hey maybe all will reveal itself to us in the end (pun intended)

  • @Arden.7480 said:

    They are not Zhaitan's Risen, they were Awakened just after their death, so their livers, hearts etc were kinda Awakened with their body. I think. :D

    Comes up in Vabbi that the formal process has the organs removed before the body is Awakened. Obviously wouldn't be the case with on-the-spot Awakenings... but what were the odds that our guards in the Great Hall would have been of that sort?

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Kitty.6219Kitty.6219 Member ✭✭✭

    And don't forget the self cleaning dragonbrandstorm corruption, leaves only a fresh scent of grapes!

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 I dunno, I don't think Kormir was speaking in riddles. In any case, by that point, the spear had been shattered and Aurine was nowhere to be found - about as far out of reach as you could possibly get.

  • Nikolai.3648Nikolai.3648 Member ✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    While I mostly agree with what you said, there are a few points I would like to talk about:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Rikimaru.7890 said:
    Killing Balthazar with Sohothin
    Yes that makes a ton of sense - killing the God of Fire with a firey sword. I mean this is like trying to drown a fish. More over Sohothin was by lore Balthazar's own sword once, also Balthazar himself reignited it when it lost it's power inside The Mists. If this was taken seriously then once we reach Balthazar he would be like: Oh nice sword you got there! snaps fingers and Sohophin loses all it's powers Woops how did that happen?

    Sohothin was made by Balthazar when he was a god. It's divine magic, magic greater than himself, and the idea is "using one's strength as their weakness" which is a pretty common trope, especially in GW2 (almost overdone imo).

    Balthazar also shows that he is only capable of absorbing unleashed magic. Those inside artifacts or spells he cannot freely absorb. So he wouldn't be able to just snap his fingers and extinguish any fiery sword, let alone one made by divine power. Reigniting seems to be a different deal - after all, you merely need a spark to start a burner.

    The magic greater than himself deal should be off the table the second he is able to reignite the magic. Sure, it looks logical at first glance, use a spark to ignite a liter of gasoline. But is that a fair comparison? We don’t know what kind of energy is used to power the flames of the sword, but seeing as it went out in the mists, would it not make sense for it to be like a lightly exotherm reaction with a high activation energy? If whatever reaction producing the energy of the sword was stronger, it should not have gone out in the first place. And if only a small amount of activation energy was needed, why would Rytlock need Balthazar to reignite it? So those two instances do not seem comparable to me. Going behind that, it is rather odd that Balthazar would just let Rytlock leave with the sword when he had the chance to reclaim it right there. Even if he was still weakened, he had enough power to open a portal to Tyria (seeing how it is stated multiple times in the lore that Balthazar opened portals, I would guess it was him doing it and not some random phenomenon) – why not use this power to force Rytlock to hand over the sword instead of giving him a way to run away from him? Even if he wanted to wait, why not let Rytlock wander around in the mists and get back to Tyria on his own first and go back to reclaim the sword later? This sounds like character breaking incompetence to me. While we are at it:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Balthazar's Sword was likely recovered from his reliquary, reignited with Sohothin, and Kralkatorrik got a taste of what divine magic could have been like (Balthazar was a former god at the point, but he was still a god once).

    I might have just missed that, but at what point did Balthazar reignite his sword with Sohothin? I don’t recall a time after he got it from his vaults that he was in possession of Sohothin, which fits nicely into my critique from above: If he wanted some nice weapons from his former time as a god, why would he just let go of Sohothin like that?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Actually it's not all speculation. Devs explained this in AMA. Sohothin was Balthazar's sword and that, combined with him having lost his divinity and power (the entire purpose of his goal to take magic from the Elder Dragons), and Aurene's aide is why we were able to kill him.

    Speculation or not, as you have said yourself, this trope has been used more than it should be in GW2 and this time it does not even fit well: Using fire against fire is a nice metaphor, but using it against the former god of Fire and War? At that point Balthazar more or less only incorporated the dark sides of war as his character, making that the perfect point to show the players that using fire against fire just leaves the world a burned-up place, just like war does. Using it should have made the fight harder for us, not easier. If they would have pulled a stunt like giving Balthazar a power boost each time we used the sword against him and making him remark something about the irony that we try to kill him with a sword reignited by his own, only to give us the achievement if we manage to carry it through the whole fight, while making the battle much harder while we try that – that would be nice, unique and challenging. But the way it is right now? It is boring at best, an overused trope and wasted potential – in other words, it is a badly written scene.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That said, Awakened do breathe and sleep, I believe. Even if they don't biologically need to they likely would out of habit and mental need, we can see breathing animation on them, and the human psyche isn't strong enough to remain awake 24/7. Eating and drinking though...

    Most ghosts seem to be able to deal with it – so why should awakened not? Regardless, the fact that awakened are supposed to still eat (stated multiple times) and drink is another example of bad writing. Even if they did it out of habit (they most likely don’t, as we can see in the newest living story), why would the alcohol affect them when they lack the organs to absorb it (no metabolism = no problem)? It appears to me like the writers oftentimes do not care about logic – the by far biggest sin when creating a plot we are supposed to take seriously.

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    While I mostly agree with what you said, there are a few points I would like to talk about:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Rikimaru.7890 said:
    Killing Balthazar with Sohothin
    Yes that makes a ton of sense - killing the God of Fire with a firey sword. I mean this is like trying to drown a fish. More over Sohothin was by lore Balthazar's own sword once, also Balthazar himself reignited it when it lost it's power inside The Mists. If this was taken seriously then once we reach Balthazar he would be like: Oh nice sword you got there! snaps fingers and Sohophin loses all it's powers Woops how did that happen?

    Sohothin was made by Balthazar when he was a god. It's divine magic, magic greater than himself, and the idea is "using one's strength as their weakness" which is a pretty common trope, especially in GW2 (almost overdone imo).

    Balthazar also shows that he is only capable of absorbing unleashed magic. Those inside artifacts or spells he cannot freely absorb. So he wouldn't be able to just snap his fingers and extinguish any fiery sword, let alone one made by divine power. Reigniting seems to be a different deal - after all, you merely need a spark to start a burner.

    The magic greater than himself deal should be off the table the second he is able to reignite the magic. Sure, it looks logical at first glance, use a spark to ignite a liter of gasoline. But is that a fair comparison? We don’t know what kind of energy is used to power the flames of the sword, but seeing as it went out in the mists, would it not make sense for it to be like a lightly exotherm reaction with a high activation energy? If whatever reaction producing the energy of the sword was stronger, it should not have gone out in the first place. And if only a small amount of activation energy was needed, why would Rytlock need Balthazar to reignite it? So those two instances do not seem comparable to me. Going behind that, it is rather odd that Balthazar would just let Rytlock leave with the sword when he had the chance to reclaim it right there. Even if he was still weakened, he had enough power to open a portal to Tyria (seeing how it is stated multiple times in the lore that Balthazar opened portals, I would guess it was him doing it and not some random phenomenon) – why not use this power to force Rytlock to hand over the sword instead of giving him a way to run away from him? Even if he wanted to wait, why not let Rytlock wander around in the mists and get back to Tyria on his own first and go back to reclaim the sword later? This sounds like character breaking incompetence to me. While we are at it:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Balthazar's Sword was likely recovered from his reliquary, reignited with Sohothin, and Kralkatorrik got a taste of what divine magic could have been like (Balthazar was a former god at the point, but he was still a god once).

    I might have just missed that, but at what point did Balthazar reignite his sword with Sohothin? I don’t recall a time after he got it from his vaults that he was in possession of Sohothin, which fits nicely into my critique from above: If he wanted some nice weapons from his former time as a god, why would he just let go of Sohothin like that?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Actually it's not all speculation. Devs explained this in AMA. Sohothin was Balthazar's sword and that, combined with him having lost his divinity and power (the entire purpose of his goal to take magic from the Elder Dragons), and Aurene's aide is why we were able to kill him.

    Speculation or not, as you have said yourself, this trope has been used more than it should be in GW2 and this time it does not even fit well: Using fire against fire is a nice metaphor, but using it against the former god of Fire and War? At that point Balthazar more or less only incorporated the dark sides of war as his character, making that the perfect point to show the players that using fire against fire just leaves the world a burned-up place, just like war does. Using it should have made the fight harder for us, not easier. If they would have pulled a stunt like giving Balthazar a power boost each time we used the sword against him and making him remark something about the irony that we try to kill him with a sword reignited by his own, only to give us the achievement if we manage to carry it through the whole fight, while making the battle much harder while we try that – that would be nice, unique and challenging. But the way it is right now? It is boring at best, an overused trope and wasted potential – in other words, it is a badly written scene.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That said, Awakened do breathe and sleep, I believe. Even if they don't biologically need to they likely would out of habit and mental need, we can see breathing animation on them, and the human psyche isn't strong enough to remain awake 24/7. Eating and drinking though...

    Most ghosts seem to be able to deal with it – so why should awakened not? Regardless, the fact that awakened are supposed to still eat (stated multiple times) and drink is another example of bad writing. Even if they did it out of habit (they most likely don’t, as we can see in the newest living story), why would the alcohol affect them when they lack the organs to absorb it (no metabolism = no problem)? It appears to me like the writers oftentimes do not care about logic – the by far biggest sin when creating a plot we are supposed to take seriously.

    I believe that Konig was talking about how we, the PC, reignited Balthazar's Sword with Sohothin, not that Balthazar had done it.

    Also, I do recall some discussion of the possibility that the water from the Astralarium maybe having similar magical effects to toned down holy water, possibly explaining that the awakened were drunk by magical means, not biological (of course mostly specilation). All I know is that Saida did seem to know that they needed this specific brew to get the awakened drunk, not just any alcohol.

  • TheBravery.9615TheBravery.9615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2018

    the story is all nonsense to me too, agreed.

    Feel like they get inspirations from fan fiction

    BUT THIS IS ALL OK BECAUSE IT'S "MAGIC"

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    I have to agree with most of the things you have said, especially Sohotin. Sure there are possible explanations for that but they are all pure speculation. Especially since Sohotin flew into the Mists right next to Balthazar (make what you want out of it).

    Actually it's not all speculation. Devs explained this in AMA. Sohothin was Balthazar's sword and that, combined with him having lost his divinity and power (the entire purpose of his goal to take magic from the Elder Dragons), and Aurene's aide is why we were able to kill him.

    But thats not the answer to the raised question. If the question itself is "how was Sohoting able to be used against Balthazar if its his own magical sword?" then the answer cannot be "Sohoting and Aurene and lack of divine powers is what helped us kill Balthazar".

    What helped us kill him is quite clear to everyone. Its just that some people have a problem with one particular element. And yes, so far it stays as just speculation.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2018

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    And if only a small amount of activation energy was needed, why would Rytlock need Balthazar to reignite it?

    probably Rytlock didnt know how to handle fire magic.

    So those two instances do not seem comparable to me. Going behind that, it is rather odd that Balthazar would just let Rytlock leave with the sword when he had the >chance to reclaim it right there. Even if he was still weakened, he had enough power to open a portal to Tyria (seeing how it is stated multiple times in the lore that >Balthazar opened portals, I would guess it was him doing it and not some random phenomenon) – why not use this power to force Rytlock to hand over the sword >instead of giving him a way to run away from him? Even if he wanted to wait, why not let Rytlock wander around in the mists and get back to Tyria on his own first and go >back to reclaim the sword later? This sounds like character breaking incompetence to me. While we are at it:

    to reclaim it he should fight Rytlock with reignited Sohotin in hands, and in his weakened state it does not seem like a good idea, and somehow Balthazar felt the need to honor Rytlock's favor.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • @Nikolai.3648 said:
    The magic greater than himself deal should be off the table the second he is able to reignite the magic. Sure, it looks logical at first glance, use a spark to ignite a liter of gasoline. But is that a fair comparison? We don’t know what kind of energy is used to power the flames of the sword, but seeing as it went out in the mists, would it not make sense for it to be like a lightly exotherm reaction with a high activation energy? If whatever reaction producing the energy of the sword was stronger, it should not have gone out in the first place. And if only a small amount of activation energy was needed, why would Rytlock need Balthazar to reignite it? So those two instances do not seem comparable to me. Going behind that, it is rather odd that Balthazar would just let Rytlock leave with the sword when he had the chance to reclaim it right there. Even if he was still weakened, he had enough power to open a portal to Tyria (seeing how it is stated multiple times in the lore that Balthazar opened portals, I would guess it was him doing it and not some random phenomenon) – why not use this power to force Rytlock to hand over the sword instead of giving him a way to run away from him? Even if he wanted to wait, why not let Rytlock wander around in the mists and get back to Tyria on his own first and go back to reclaim the sword later? This sounds like character breaking incompetence to me. While we are at it:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Balthazar's Sword was likely recovered from his reliquary, reignited with Sohothin, and Kralkatorrik got a taste of what divine magic could have been like (Balthazar was a former god at the point, but he was still a god once).

    I might have just missed that, but at what point did Balthazar reignite his sword with Sohothin? I don’t recall a time after he got it from his vaults that he was in possession of Sohothin, which fits nicely into my critique from above: If he wanted some nice weapons from his former time as a god, why would he just let go of Sohothin like that?

    We reignited Balthazar's Sword with Sohothin, thus why Kralkatorrik went after it for its divine magic (as Sohothin would be).

    As to Balthazar reigniting Sohothin - he didn't give the sword the magic, he just sparked the flame. There's a pretty fine difference. And some speculation is that the entire reason it was extinguished was because Balthazar took its magic. If he did, then reigniting it would mean giving up everything that made him superior to the sword, since he needed Rytlock to break him free. I actually like that Balthazar let Rytlock keep the sword - this was a sign of the honor that GW1 had Balthazar's teachings enforcing full fold. It's really the only part of Path of Fire and Season 3 where GW2 Balthazar felt like GW1 Balthazar.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    But the way it is right now? It is boring at best, an overused trope and wasted potential – in other words, it is a badly written scene.

    While I don't disagree that it was poorly written and could have been done better, it is still superior than the lore mess that was Season 1 and Scarlet's alliances and motivations.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That said, Awakened do breathe and sleep, I believe. Even if they don't biologically need to they likely would out of habit and mental need, we can see breathing animation on them, and the human psyche isn't strong enough to remain awake 24/7. Eating and drinking though...

    Most ghosts seem to be able to deal with it – so why should awakened not? Regardless, the fact that awakened are supposed to still eat (stated multiple times) and drink is another example of bad writing. Even if they did it out of habit (they most likely don’t, as we can see in the newest living story), why would the alcohol affect them when they lack the organs to absorb it (no metabolism = no problem)? It appears to me like the writers oftentimes do not care about logic – the by far biggest sin when creating a plot we are supposed to take seriously.

    I'd imagine lacking a body alters one's mentality fairly drastically.

    And who says ghosts don't sleep? I mean, we do see more than a handful of ghosts which are idle inside objects until prodded.

    And what part of the new LW episode indicates that the Awakened need to eat? If you refer to the village heart, that village has living people in it, and I've not seen any dialogue indicating the Awakened there eat the food.

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    Bunch of BS excuses. What Braham needed was HIS MOM.

    Honestly, no, not really. Braham never needed Eir. He wanted Eir, but didn't need her presence. Humans can survive just fine without a biological parent, and Braham had two adopted parents after his father died. And norn have a long standing aspect of their culture that only one parent would raise the kid while the other went out to fulfill their legend. Knut's wife, for example, didn't raise her kids either. Sigfast and his brother were raised fine.

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    I have to agree with most of the things you have said, especially Sohotin. Sure there are possible explanations for that but they are all pure speculation. Especially since Sohotin flew into the Mists right next to Balthazar (make what you want out of it).

    Actually it's not all speculation. Devs explained this in AMA. Sohothin was Balthazar's sword and that, combined with him having lost his divinity and power (the entire purpose of his goal to take magic from the Elder Dragons), and Aurene's aide is why we were able to kill him.

    But thats not the answer to the raised question. If the question itself is "how was Sohoting able to be used against Balthazar if its his own magical sword?" then the answer cannot be "Sohoting and Aurene and lack of divine powers is what helped us kill Balthazar".

    What helped us kill him is quite clear to everyone. Its just that some people have a problem with one particular element. And yes, so far it stays as just speculation.

    It actually is an answer. "His own sword" from the time he was a god, was able to overpower the non-god state of Balthazar. How is that at all confusing?

    And it's not speculation because ArenaNet themselves stated such.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    We reignited Balthazar's Sword with Sohothin, thus why Kralkatorrik went after it for its divine magic (as Sohothin would be).

    Thank you (and Narcemus of course), it totally evaded me that you could have meant that.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    As to Balthazar reigniting Sohothin - he didn't give the sword the magic, he just sparked the flame. There's a pretty fine difference. And some speculation is that the entire reason it was extinguished was because Balthazar took its magic. If he did, then reigniting it would mean giving up everything that made him superior to the sword, since he needed Rytlock to break him free.

    A difference I mentioned. It leaves the problem that it went out in the first place, which can only be explained by it´s energy being set free by only a lightly exotherm reaction with a high activation energy. A stronger reaction would produce enough energy to not be ended by a little bit of mist traveling (which I would count as a light disturbance, seeing as Rytlock was fine) and a smaller activation barrier would have not needed Balthazar’s spark. While this problem disappears when we assume that Balthazar did extinguish the sword to begin with, it creates the new plot hole that Balthazar was able to extinguish the flames when he was chained down and powerless, but no longer after he was freed and regained quite some power.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I actually like that Balthazar let Rytlock keep the sword - this was a sign of the honor that GW1 had Balthazar's teachings enforcing full fold. It's really the only part of Path of Fire and Season 3 where GW2 Balthazar felt like GW1 Balthazar.

    Really? I can kind of understand your reasoning, but to me it had a totally different effect: On one hand we are shown that Balthazar at this time had already made a U-turn regarding his former teachings, but here we are suddenly to believe that he still had enough honor left to just let go of his best chance to regain his power quickly? The fact that he still felt like GW1 Balthazar there feels like a farce, seeing that he does no longer care about those virtues every single time we try to argue with him based on them.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    But the way it is right now? It is boring at best, an overused trope and wasted potential – in other words, it is a badly written scene.

    While I don't disagree that it was poorly written and could have been done better, it is still superior than the lore mess that was Season 1 and Scarlet's alliances and motivations.

    I agree. But honestly: If you have to compare a story to Scarlet´s arc in an attempt to not make it look too horrible, you have lost any real chance of doing so.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And what part of the new LW episode indicates that the Awakened need to eat? If you refer to the village heart, that village has living people in it, and I've not seen any dialogue indicating the Awakened there eat the food.

    I was talking about the Junundu and how they serve as food to the Awakened. The defense of them/ bringing the Awakened Army food so they don’t touch them - event gives a nice hindsight to Osa Ekolos´ character and how the Awakaned´s need to eat seems to be nothing new.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I'd imagine lacking a body alters one's mentality fairly drastically.

    And I would imagine being undead would do the same.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And who says ghosts don't sleep? I mean, we do see more than a handful of ghosts which are idle inside objects until prodded.

    I was sure to have heard some ghost state this in the Lair of the forgotten, but I can’t find it right now. I did however find this quote from one of the spirits there, talking about the Awakened: “The march isn't long for them; undead don't need rest or food.” This should prove that the writers often times forget the rules they laid down themselves. If it solves our discussion regarding if they really do need to sleep or not is up to debate, since apparently the writers can’t get their small cat babies together and agree on one version of the story. This may sound like I hate all of the writers with a passion, which I don’t! I really like how they often come up with little plots that make me smile or references to GW1. I do respect the amount of labor they put into their work. But as someone who has observed the quality of their work since GW1, I am afraid the quality of the story has suffered greatly. It may be the changes in the writing department or the limited time they have to come up with a story, make it compatible with what’s going on right now and then slowly connect it all. I don’t know what exactly is at fault here, but I am afraid that the plot holes alone are slowly piling up to something I might not be able to enjoy much longer. I can only hope they do put more empathy on continuity in the future.

  • @Nikolai.3648 said:
    A difference I mentioned. It leaves the problem that it went out in the first place, which can only be explained by it´s energy being set free by only a lightly exotherm reaction with a high activation energy. A stronger reaction would produce enough energy to not be ended by a little bit of mist traveling (which I would count as a light disturbance, seeing as Rytlock was fine) and a smaller activation barrier would have not needed Balthazar’s spark. While this problem disappears when we assume that Balthazar did extinguish the sword to begin with, it creates the new plot hole that Balthazar was able to extinguish the flames when he was chained down and powerless, but no longer after he was freed and regained quite some power.

    Sparking a flame requires less effort than maintaining it. Sohothin's flames could be similar.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Really? I can kind of understand your reasoning, but to me it had a totally different effect: On one hand we are shown that Balthazar at this time had already made a U-turn regarding his former teachings, but here we are suddenly to believe that he still had enough honor left to just let go of his best chance to regain his power quickly? The fact that he still felt like GW1 Balthazar there feels like a farce, seeing that he does no longer care about those virtues every single time we try to argue with him based on them.

    Could Balthazar have gained much from Sohothin? It being strong enough to do damage to Balthazar is one thing, but is it strong enough to do damage to an Elder Dragon or proper god? If not, then wielding it had no benefit.

    Could Balthazar have taken the magic from Balthazar (ignoring the unproven theory that he is why it was extinguished, Balthazar is never shown taking magic from artifacts or spells, just loose magic like the Bloodstone or the magic torn out of Primordus and Jormag by Taimi's Machine)? If not, then keeping it held no benefit unless it proved a useful weapon against Elder Dragons and gods.

    Sohothin might have been Balthazar's, but it was a gift to human kings. And after he was freed, it was in the hands of Rytlock. If Balthazar wanted it back, he would have to battle Rytlock who wielded Sohothin, while less than what we see him as in Season 3. He was at a clear disadvantage if Sohothin would be enough to take Balthazar down after he gourged himself on a Bloodstone and skimmed off two Elder Dragons' magic.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I agree. But honestly: If you have to compare a story to Scarlet´s arc in an attempt to not make it look too horrible, you have lost any real chance of doing so.

    I wasn't. OP was, and I was disagreeing with the comparison. You disagreed with me, so I was reinforcing what it was being compared to.

    There really isn't a single part of GW writing - of either game really - that couldn't be improved quite a bit. But Scarlet's lore was by far the worst of it all, and PoF goes nowhere near as bad (though the fake Lazarus deal does come a bit close due to how poorly it was done...).

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    And I would imagine being undead would do the same.

    Yes, but not as much, given you still have a physical body.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I was sure to have heard some ghost state this in the Lair of the forgotten, but I can’t find it right now. I did however find this quote from one of the spirits there, talking about the Awakened: “The march isn't long for them; undead don't need rest or food.” This should prove that the writers often times forget the rules they laid down themselves. If it solves our discussion regarding if they really do need to sleep or not is up to debate, since apparently the writers can’t get their small cat babies together and agree on one version of the story. This may sound like I hate all of the writers with a passion, which I don’t! I really like how they often come up with little plots that make me smile or references to GW1. I do respect the amount of labor they put into their work. But as someone who has observed the quality of their work since GW1, I am afraid the quality of the story has suffered greatly. It may be the changes in the writing department or the limited time they have to come up with a story, make it compatible with what’s going on right now and then slowly connect it all. I don’t know what exactly is at fault here, but I am afraid that the plot holes alone are slowly piling up to something I might not be able to enjoy much longer. I can only hope they do put more empathy on continuity in the future.

    Even GW1 has a quest about Awakened eating, which I just remembered, so this isn't exactly a new oversight, despite Awakened in GW1 having an even more mummified appearance than in GW2.

    It's likely a case of "they don't need to eat, but they still feel the sensation of being hungry, so eating puts that sensation at ease, which could otherwise drive them mad."

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Could Balthazar have gained much from Sohothin? It being strong enough to do damage to Balthazar is one thing, but is it strong enough to do damage to an Elder Dragon or proper god? If not, then wielding it had no benefit.

    Could Balthazar have taken the magic from Balthazar (ignoring the unproven theory that he is why it was extinguished, Balthazar is never shown taking magic from artifacts or spells, just loose magic like the Bloodstone or the magic torn out of Primordus and Jormag by Taimi's Machine)? If not, then keeping it held no benefit unless it proved a useful weapon against Elder Dragons and gods.

    It would have the benefit of not being int his potential enemies’ hands. So yes, he would have gained something from it - it might have even saved his life, as we know by now.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Sohothin might have been Balthazar's, but it was a gift to human kings. And after he was freed, it was in the hands of Rytlock. If Balthazar wanted it back, he would have to battle Rytlock who wielded Sohothin, while less than what we see him as in Season 3. He was at a clear disadvantage if Sohothin would be enough to take Balthazar down after he gourged himself on a Bloodstone and skimmed off two Elder Dragons' magic.

    If he feared to lose (we can see during POF that he does no longer at that point, but we don’t know if he ever did), why open the portal then and there? Why not just wait a bit and come back later to pick it up? Or play it smart: Why would he offer to reignite the swords flames for free? Why not just trade it and his freedom for a safe way back to Tyria. He could even throw in some information that would help kill Mordremoth if Rytlock would not like the deal, the dragon’s death seemed to be in his interest too, after all. But nothing like this happens. Instead, we are shown a Balthazar who does no longer honor his former virtues but is still smart enough to recover his stuff and hide himself with the mirror, making the worst decision he can in that situation – that is not good writing. I dislike villains being incompetent because it is needed to progress the plot nearly as much as “heroes” who we are supposed to believe when they say that they just now have realized that they might have done something bad during their stay in the mists they never talked about with us in detail, despite it being potentially really important for…what reasons again?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I wasn't. OP was, and I was disagreeing with the comparison. You disagreed with me, so I was reinforcing what it was being compared to.

    I did indeed not notice that this was not your opinion, too. But that again might also say quite something about the quality of the story.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    And I would imagine being undead would do the same.

    Yes, but not as much, given you still have a physical body.

    Why not? We speak about the brain as a limiting factor here. Awakened clearly do not depend on their brain any longer – it is dead after all and does no longer fulfill is biological function. So why would you think they are still bound by the limits of the living?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Even GW1 has a quest about Awakened eating, which I just remembered, so this isn't exactly a new oversight, despite Awakened in GW1 having an even more mummified appearance than in GW2.

    It's likely a case of "they don't need to eat, but they still feel the sensation of being hungry, so eating puts that sensation at ease, which could otherwise drive them mad."

    I don’t see any other awakened mentioning something like that and as you mentioned yourself, GW1 Awakened do differ from GW2 Awakened, making her not the best example. We have no reason to think that such a psychological effect exists for the majority of Awakened in the first place, neither do we have any reason to assume one (if it even exists) to be strong enough to not be suppressed by Joko’s mind control if necessary, after seeing to what lengths his thought manipulation really went with the latest episode. It would make more sense if they really needed to consume something to regenerate (seeing what they are supposed to eat would fit into that), because I would most certainly doubt that sacrificing Junundu, which are depicted as a strong elite unit, would be even considered if it was not absolutely necessary. This of course would go against what the spirits at the Lair state, but since we are stuck between two inconsistencies, it might be the smaller sacrifice to make.

  • @Nikolai.3648 said:
    It would have the benefit of not being int his potential enemies’ hands. So yes, he would have gained something from it - it might have even saved his life, as we know by now.

    Why would Balthazar think Rytlock would oppose him?

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    If he feared to lose (we can see during POF that he does no longer at that point, but we don’t know if he ever did), why open the portal then and there? Why not just wait a bit and come back later to pick it up? Or play it smart: Why would he offer to reignite the swords flames for free? Why not just trade it and his freedom for a safe way back to Tyria. He could even throw in some information that would help kill Mordremoth if Rytlock would not like the deal, the dragon’s death seemed to be in his interest too, after all. But nothing like this happens. Instead, we are shown a Balthazar who does no longer honor his former virtues but is still smart enough to recover his stuff and hide himself with the mirror, making the worst decision he can in that situation – that is not good writing. I dislike villains being incompetent because it is needed to progress the plot nearly as much as “heroes” who we are supposed to believe when they say that they just now have realized that they might have done something bad during their stay in the mists they never talked about with us in detail, despite it being potentially really important for…what reasons again?

    Put it this way: Balthazar promised Rytlock to ignite the sword and open a fast way home in exchange for freedom. If you were in Balthazar's shoes, of being mortal-levels weak at the time, would you really break your promise with a burling charr who's wandered the Mists, and is wielding that flaming sword? Would you hedge your bets on being able to outrun that charr, to open, pass through, and close a portal before the charr could reach you or the portal?

    And would you think that someone who delved into what is literally purgatory would be willing for ANY reason to give up what they delved into for?

    If you cannot accept the "I will honor my deals" approach, then it is fully logical thinking that someone who'd probably lose to Logan in an arm wrestling match, and lose to Zojja in a fireball throwing match, to not pick a fight with the guy who wields a divine sword.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Why not? We speak about the brain as a limiting factor here. Awakened clearly do not depend on their brain any longer – it is dead after all and does no longer fulfill is biological function. So why would you think they are still bound by the limits of the living?

    Who said anything about the brain? Mentality, when souls have personality and thought processes, is more than the physical brain.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I don’t see any other awakened mentioning something like that and as you mentioned yourself, GW1 Awakened do differ from GW2 Awakened, making her not the best example.

    Even though the GW1 Awakened appear MORE mummified than the GW2 Awakened, which means MORE likely to not have a stomach? That's really the only difference, the fact the GW1 Awakened are multi-racial and in wrappings. Beyond that, they seem to be pretty much the same.

    We have no reason to think that such a psychological effect exists for the majority of Awakened in the first place,

    Except for the fact we know that some Awakened have a sensation of hunger. We as living beings know what that sensation can do over an extended period of time on mental processes let alone physical ones. Given the Awakened are lacking the physical requirements for digestion (their stomachs, kidneys, and intestines are removed), that isn't an issue, but there's nothing to suggest the mental need is gone. You say there's no reason to think the effect exists, except for the fact we're told it exists twice (if not more).

    neither do we have any reason to assume one (if it even exists) to be strong enough to not be suppressed by Joko’s mind control if necessary,

    Whoever said it couldn't? In both cases, Joko's efforts are placed elsewhere - either because he's busy reorganizing his army, or because he's dead.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    Bunch of BS excuses. What Braham needed was HIS MOM.

    Honestly, no, not really. Braham never needed Eir. He wanted Eir, but didn't need her presence. Humans can survive just fine without a biological parent, and Braham had two adopted parents after his father died. And norn have a long standing aspect of their culture that only one parent would raise the kid while the other went out to fulfill their legend. Knut's wife, for example, didn't raise her kids either. Sigfast and his brother were raised fine.

    This seems to me to be one of the places where the plot has been done right, actually. As easy as it is to forget that Norn aren't just tall humans, this is an example of how they're not.

    For a norn, being bound to look after someone at the expense of the great feats you could be performing is a death while you're still breathing.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    I've actually been fighting an itch to bring that up since the first person used the phrase, because it does not apply here.

    Fighting fire with fire, in real life, operates solely on the principle that fuel and/or oxygen are limited resources. Your fire uses it up so that the other fire can't, and, done right, the end result is that it hastens along an outcome where both fires are burned out. As soon as your fire runs off an internal magical reservoir instead of fuel, the whole thing stops working- all introducing more fire does is give you more fire, which is presumably the exact opposite of what you're going for. Unless Sohothin was siphoning off Balthazar's power the whole time to keep itself running, the origin of the phrase couldn't have applied.

    (Hypothetically, it might be possible to extinguish a magical fire by using up all of the oxygen, but A.) the battle arena is wide open, which, from my limited understanding of the procedure, would make it somewhere between exceedingly difficult and functionally impossible, and B.) our character is standing in the middle of it all, and they happen to need that oxygen to breathe, and are unlikely to appreciate the amount of fire needed to exhaust it.)

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    It actually is an answer. "His own sword" from the time he was a god, was able to overpower the non-god state of Balthazar. How is that at all confusing?

    And it's not speculation because ArenaNet themselves stated such.

    But that's not the question. We all played the game, we know that sword was used to kill him. That's not the part people are having a problem with.

    You are completely misunderstanding the question. Problem isn't that how come Sohoting was able to kill him, but how come Sohotin was able to kill him since it is his magical sword which implies some sort of connection. It makes no sense that his weakness would be an item with special magical connection to him.

    You are treating this as if the question is how come Sohotin was physically able to kill Balthazarr but that's not even the question.

    If it makes no sense that element A is able to be used against X then the answer to the problem cannot be "Yes, the A killed X".

    The answer you are quoting from Arena Net is not the answer to the question that some people are raising. Its like you ask someone what day it is and they answer January.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    what's with the notion that a connection automaticly means immunity to something.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    It actually is an answer. "His own sword" from the time he was a god, was able to overpower the non-god state of Balthazar. How is that at all confusing?

    And it's not speculation because ArenaNet themselves stated such.

    But that's not the question. We all played the game, we know that sword was used to kill him. That's not the part people are having a problem with.

    You are completely misunderstanding the question. Problem isn't that how come Sohoting was able to kill him, but how come Sohotin was able to kill him since it is his magical sword which implies some sort of connection. It makes no sense that his weakness would be an item with special magical connection to him.

    You are treating this as if the question is how come Sohotin was physically able to kill Balthazarr but that's not even the question.

    If it makes no sense that element A is able to be used against X then the answer to the problem cannot be "Yes, the A killed X".

    The answer you are quoting from Arena Net is not the answer to the question that some people are raising. Its like you ask someone what day it is and they answer January.

    I'm not misunderstanding the question. You're making a false assumption that, were it true, would make the answer false.

    You're presuming that "because it's his own magic, it cannot harm him" but this is simply not true. And at no point in the franchise has this ever been presented to be the case. A prime example would be the Destroyer of Life in the Edge of Destiny novel. It was killed when Eir took one of its burning arrows and fired it back at the Destroyer of Life's core. The primordial fire of the arrow was the only thing able to withstand the heat of the Destroyer of Life's fire, thus the only thing capable of reaching and harming that core.

    Under your presumption, this should be impossible because "the arrow is its own magic", but that's not how magic works.

    Just because Balthazar made Sohothin, doesn't mean he can command its magic at his own whim. Sohothin has, for millennia, been its own separate item independent of Balthazar's state of being. Sohothin might have been made by Balthazar, but it is as much capable of damaging Balthazar as a blacksmith's sword is capable of stabbing the blacksmith because Sohothin is not the same entity as Balthazar, and an entity's magic can be used against them.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    It would have the benefit of not being int his potential enemies’ hands. So yes, he would have gained something from it - it might have even saved his life, as we know by now.

    Why would Balthazar think Rytlock would oppose him?

    Why would he leave it up to chance instead of making sure it can’t happen? He gains nothing from leaving the sword with Rytlock.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Put it this way: Balthazar promised Rytlock to ignite the sword and open a fast way home in exchange for freedom. If you were in Balthazar's shoes, of being mortal-levels weak at the time, would you really break your promise with a burling charr who's wandered the Mists, and is wielding that flaming sword?

    Why would he break a promise? I already said that he could for example try to convince Rytlock to give him the sword as part of a trade. He also never promised Rytlock to open a portal in the first place. He had all the cards in his hands there and went for the worst possible option, not even trying to bargain.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Would you hedge your bets on being able to outrun that charr, to open, pass through, and close a portal before the charr could reach you or the portal?

    The mists are no small place. He could have just waited a while until Rytlock would eventually leave him alone.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And would you think that someone who delved into what is literally purgatory would be willing for ANY reason to give up what they delved into for?

    Yes, I can. More importantly, Balthazar did not know about Rytlock´s obsession with the sword, making this point void.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    If you cannot accept the "I will honor my deals" approach, then it is fully logical thinking that someone who'd probably lose to Logan in an arm wrestling match, and lose to Zojja in a fireball throwing match, to not pick a fight with the guy who wields a divine sword.

    It would be fully logical to think that someone like that would resort to the options I already mentioned.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Why not? We speak about the brain as a limiting factor here. Awakened clearly do not depend on their brain any longer – it is dead after all and does no longer fulfill is biological function. So why would you think they are still bound by the limits of the living?

    Who said anything about the brain? Mentality, when souls have personality and thought processes, is more than the physical brain.

    You did try to justify the difference between spirits and Awakened with the lack of the body, which leaves us with the brain. Spirits are no longer bound by the limits of a body, but neither are the minds of the Awakened.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You say there's no reason to think the effect exists, except for the fact we're told it exists twice (if not more).

    We are not told that it is a psychological effect, we are told that they are hungry, which makes a big difference, because it leaves us with the option that the writers thought they need to eat. I also said that we have no reason to think that such a psychological effect exists for the majority of Awakened. And I still don’t think Joko would be willing to sacrifice Junundu for that, we know how he treats his soldiers.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    neither do we have any reason to assume one (if it even exists) to be strong enough to not be suppressed by Joko’s mind control if necessary,

    Whoever said it couldn't? In both cases, Joko's efforts are placed elsewhere - either because he's busy reorganizing his army, or because he's dead.

    And since you seem to agree that Joko could have suppressed it (he was after all still able to hold onto all his awakened mind control even when he was caged in the underworld) why would he bother with such a psychological problem? This only leaves their need to eat as an explanation.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    Fighting fire with fire, in real life, operates solely on the principle that fuel and/or oxygen are limited resources. Your fire uses it up so that the other fire can't, and, done right, the end result is that it hastens along an outcome where both fires are burned out. As soon as your fire runs off an internal magical reservoir instead of fuel, the whole thing stops working- all introducing more fire does is give you more fire, which is presumably the exact opposite of what you're going for. Unless Sohothin was siphoning off Balthazar's power the whole time to keep itself running, the origin of the phrase couldn't have applied.

    That is all certainly true, but the meaning of the phrase nowadays is to resort to the same force the opponent uses in an attempt to hurt them, oftentimes without caring about the collateral damage. I think that using a fire sword against a former God of Fire who uses fire himself against us qualifies for the use of the phrase.

  • @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    It would have the benefit of not being int his potential enemies’ hands. So yes, he would have gained something from it - it might have even saved his life, as we know by now.

    Why would Balthazar think Rytlock would oppose him?

    Why would he leave it up to chance instead of making sure it can’t happen? He gains nothing from leaving the sword with Rytlock.

    Pure Arrogance can be a Point here cuz Balth just could have thought he does NOT NEED the sword and neither that it could cause him harm..
    why consider chances at all if u think that those just do NOT exist

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And would you think that someone who delved into what is literally purgatory would be willing for ANY reason to give up what they delved into for?

    Yes, I can. More importantly, Balthazar did not know about Rytlock´s obsession with the sword, making this point void.

    Not sure about that it seemed to me that Balthazar knew rytlock were looking for the sword.. reasons for this can be invented if necessary but from my knowledge ist not mentioned ingame

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You say there's no reason to think the effect exists, except for the fact we're told it exists twice (if not more).

    We are not told that it is a psychological effect, we are told that they are hungry, which makes a big difference, because it leaves us with the option that the writers thought they need to eat. I also said that we have no reason to think that such a psychological effect exists for the majority of Awakened. And I still don’t think Joko would be willing to sacrifice Junundu for that, we know how he treats his soldiers.

    Keep in mind that when we reach that Point in Story, that joko was already locked away in the Domain of the lost for an unknown time.
    it is possible that the order to use the Worms as Food supply was not from joko but was indeed some sort of inner political conflict between the Generals of the awakened army.
    to weaken the influence of the wormqueen let her army dissappear .. how do u do that? eat em!

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    Fighting fire with fire, in real life, operates solely on the principle that fuel and/or oxygen are limited resources. Your fire uses it up so that the other fire can't, and, done right, the end result is that it hastens along an outcome where both fires are burned out. As soon as your fire runs off an internal magical reservoir instead of fuel, the whole thing stops working- all introducing more fire does is give you more fire, which is presumably the exact opposite of what you're going for. Unless Sohothin was siphoning off Balthazar's power the whole time to keep itself running, the origin of the phrase couldn't have applied.

    That is all certainly true, but the meaning of the phrase nowadays is to resort to the same force the opponent uses in an attempt to hurt them, oftentimes without caring about the collateral damage. I think that using a fire sword against a former God of Fire who uses fire himself against us qualifies for the use of the phrase.

    Arguing about the usage of words and phrases indeed seem pointless if the persons arguing are agreeing in a lot of ways but Keep pretending they Arent

  • @norbes.3620 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    It would have the benefit of not being int his potential enemies’ hands. So yes, he would have gained something from it - it might have even saved his life, as we know by now.

    Why would Balthazar think Rytlock would oppose him?

    Why would he leave it up to chance instead of making sure it can’t happen? He gains nothing from leaving the sword with Rytlock.

    Pure Arrogance can be a Point here cuz Balth just could have thought he does NOT NEED the sword and neither that it could cause him harm..
    why consider chances at all if u think that those just do NOT exist

    Pure arrogance would be an explanation, but even then, getting his hands on Sohothin would secure he at least had a mighty weapon at hand. I would personally like to believe that being betrayed by the other Gods might have also made him a bit paranoid before he regained power, but that is mere speculation.

    @norbes.3620 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And would you think that someone who delved into what is literally purgatory would be willing for ANY reason to give up what they delved into for?

    Yes, I can. More importantly, Balthazar did not know about Rytlock´s obsession with the sword, making this point void.

    Not sure about that it seemed to me that Balthazar knew rytlock were looking for the sword.. reasons for this can be invented if necessary but from my knowledge ist not mentioned ingame

    While it seems odd that the sword would be there of all places, I don’t see why Balthazar should know of Rytlock´s ambitions? He simply knows the sword is his best chance to get his chains off, so he offers to relight it, without knowing its value for Rytlock.

    @norbes.3620 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You say there's no reason to think the effect exists, except for the fact we're told it exists twice (if not more).

    We are not told that it is a psychological effect, we are told that they are hungry, which makes a big difference, because it leaves us with the option that the writers thought they need to eat. I also said that we have no reason to think that such a psychological effect exists for the majority of Awakened. And I still don’t think Joko would be willing to sacrifice Junundu for that, we know how he treats his soldiers.

    Keep in mind that when we reach that Point in Story, that joko was already locked away in the Domain of the lost for an unknown time.
    it is possible that the order to use the Worms as Food supply was not from joko but was indeed some sort of inner political conflict between the Generals of the awakened army.
    to weaken the influence of the wormqueen let her army dissappear .. how do u do that? eat em!

    It would fit into what happened during GW1 with his army, but I am afraid it stops making sense after his death.

    @norbes.3620 said:
    Arguing about the usage of words and phrases indeed seem pointless if the persons arguing are agreeing in a lot of ways but Keep pretending they Arent

    I am not sure if I should ask if I want to know what you could have meant by that 😉

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    I've actually been fighting an itch to bring that up since the first person used the phrase, because it does not apply here.

    Fighting fire with fire, in real life, operates solely on the principle that fuel and/or oxygen are limited resources. Your fire uses it up so that the other fire can't, and, done right, the end result is that it hastens along an outcome where both fires are burned out. As soon as your fire runs off an internal magical reservoir instead of fuel, the whole thing stops working- all introducing more fire does is give you more fire, which is presumably the exact opposite of what you're going for. Unless Sohothin was siphoning off Balthazar's power the whole time to keep itself running, the origin of the phrase couldn't have applied.

    (Hypothetically, it might be possible to extinguish a magical fire by using up all of the oxygen, but A.) the battle arena is wide open, which, from my limited understanding of the procedure, would make it somewhere between exceedingly difficult and functionally impossible, and B.) our character is standing in the middle of it all, and they happen to need that oxygen to breathe, and are unlikely to appreciate the amount of fire needed to exhaust it.)

    I'm aware, I was just poking fun.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    I've actually been fighting an itch to bring that up since the first person used the phrase, because it does not apply here.

    Fighting fire with fire, in real life, operates solely on the principle that fuel and/or oxygen are limited resources. Your fire uses it up so that the other fire can't, and, done right, the end result is that it hastens along an outcome where both fires are burned out. As soon as your fire runs off an internal magical reservoir instead of fuel, the whole thing stops working- all introducing more fire does is give you more fire, which is presumably the exact opposite of what you're going for. Unless Sohothin was siphoning off Balthazar's power the whole time to keep itself running, the origin of the phrase couldn't have applied.

    (Hypothetically, it might be possible to extinguish a magical fire by using up all of the oxygen, but A.) the battle arena is wide open, which, from my limited understanding of the procedure, would make it somewhere between exceedingly difficult and functionally impossible, and B.) our character is standing in the middle of it all, and they happen to need that oxygen to breathe, and are unlikely to appreciate the amount of fire needed to exhaust it.)

    The phrase can be used if you consider the "oxygen" to be something specific to the magic, which IMO make much more sense than trying to relate this to any real world physics. In this case, "fighting fire with fire" means to use the same magic as Balthazar: since the type of magic is the same, there is the possibility one of the two users gets control over the source first, or depletes it, or weakens it enough to win.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Ardid.7203 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    I've actually been fighting an itch to bring that up since the first person used the phrase, because it does not apply here.

    Fighting fire with fire, in real life, operates solely on the principle that fuel and/or oxygen are limited resources. Your fire uses it up so that the other fire can't, and, done right, the end result is that it hastens along an outcome where both fires are burned out. As soon as your fire runs off an internal magical reservoir instead of fuel, the whole thing stops working- all introducing more fire does is give you more fire, which is presumably the exact opposite of what you're going for. Unless Sohothin was siphoning off Balthazar's power the whole time to keep itself running, the origin of the phrase couldn't have applied.

    (Hypothetically, it might be possible to extinguish a magical fire by using up all of the oxygen, but A.) the battle arena is wide open, which, from my limited understanding of the procedure, would make it somewhere between exceedingly difficult and functionally impossible, and B.) our character is standing in the middle of it all, and they happen to need that oxygen to breathe, and are unlikely to appreciate the amount of fire needed to exhaust it.)

    The phrase can be used if you consider the "oxygen" to be something specific to the magic, which IMO make much more sense than trying to relate this to any real world physics. In this case, "fighting fire with fire" means to use the same magic as Balthazar: since the type of magic is the same, there is the possibility one of the two users gets control over the source first, or depletes it, or weakens it enough to win.

    If they were drawing from the same source, we should've seen Sohothin's power fluctuate as Balthazar's changed, but we didn't. The only noticeable difference is right at the end, when Rytlock gives the blade to the PC, and doesn't correspond with anything that Balthazar had done to affect his power.

    If they were able to draw from each other's separate sources, then Balthazar- an ex-god who's explicitly been called out for having enough knowledge of magic to leave our current experts baffled- should've been able to play the game right back, and likely better than a sword without a mind of its own. We don't see that; Sohothin's power levels remain consistent through the fight, and, for that matter, so do Balthazar's.

    We don't magically starve him into submission, like we did with Zhaitan. We don't suffocate him and leave him sputtering. His last effort, his final attack, is his most powerful ability if you allow it to land, just as powerful as it was when he first tries to use it towards the beginning of the fight, and one more powerful than what we see him using in the fights without Sohothin. We don't deplete him... we just brute force overpower him. If the sword was an integral part of that, then the only explanation that seems to fit is that the divine magic it held was greater than Balthazar's non-divine magic... but that runs into the issue of Balthazar relighting Sohothin while at his weakest, which has already been discussed to death, and of Balthazar's own sword being established to have significant divine power in the latest patch.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Ardid.7203 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    I've actually been fighting an itch to bring that up since the first person used the phrase, because it does not apply here.

    Fighting fire with fire, in real life, operates solely on the principle that fuel and/or oxygen are limited resources. Your fire uses it up so that the other fire can't, and, done right, the end result is that it hastens along an outcome where both fires are burned out. As soon as your fire runs off an internal magical reservoir instead of fuel, the whole thing stops working- all introducing more fire does is give you more fire, which is presumably the exact opposite of what you're going for. Unless Sohothin was siphoning off Balthazar's power the whole time to keep itself running, the origin of the phrase couldn't have applied.

    (Hypothetically, it might be possible to extinguish a magical fire by using up all of the oxygen, but A.) the battle arena is wide open, which, from my limited understanding of the procedure, would make it somewhere between exceedingly difficult and functionally impossible, and B.) our character is standing in the middle of it all, and they happen to need that oxygen to breathe, and are unlikely to appreciate the amount of fire needed to exhaust it.)

    The phrase can be used if you consider the "oxygen" to be something specific to the magic, which IMO make much more sense than trying to relate this to any real world physics. In this case, "fighting fire with fire" means to use the same magic as Balthazar: since the type of magic is the same, there is the possibility one of the two users gets control over the source first, or depletes it, or weakens it enough to win.

    If they were drawing from the same source, we should've seen Sohothin's power fluctuate as Balthazar's changed, but we didn't. The only noticeable difference is right at the end, when Rytlock gives the blade to the PC, and doesn't correspond with anything that Balthazar had done to affect his power.

    If they were able to draw from each other's separate sources, then Balthazar- an ex-god who's explicitly been called out for having enough knowledge of magic to leave our current experts baffled- should've been able to play the game right back, and likely better than a sword without a mind of its own. We don't see that; Sohothin's power levels remain consistent through the fight, and, for that matter, so do Balthazar's.

    We don't magically starve him into submission, like we did with Zhaitan. We don't suffocate him and leave him sputtering. His last effort, his final attack, is his most powerful ability if you allow it to land, just as powerful as it was when he first tries to use it towards the beginning of the fight, and one more powerful than what we see him using in the fights without Sohothin. We don't deplete him... we just brute force overpower him. If the sword was an integral part of that, then the only explanation that seems to fit is that the divine magic it held was greater than Balthazar's non-divine magic... but that runs into the issue of Balthazar relighting Sohothin while at his weakest, which has already been discussed to death, and of Balthazar's own sword being established to have significant divine power in the latest patch.

    I always assumed Aurene played a big part, it's plausible that she absorbed a lot of magic from being in the warbeast, so when we broke her out the player who is also her "champion" working together with Aurene and with the magical sword to boot were able to defeat him.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMO we could always remember it is "magic". And magic often follows rules that reward other things, not just knowledge.
    In my fully upgraded mental version of the story, we win because the Divine Fire both Balthy and the Commander are using takes its power from how determined, righteous and ready to give it all the wielder is. We don't win because our weapon is stronger than Balthazar, we win because deep in his mind, Balthazar knew we were right. We win because we were worthy, and the Fire rewarded that.
    Of course, that is PURE speculation or even fanfiction... but I like it and think is a better explanation than any pseudo logical attempt to put Tyrian magic under measurable and sensible rules.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, the story is full of deep holes

    First person to reach 35,000 and 36,000 AP.
    killproof.me/proof/kEyr

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:

    @Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:
    None of that matters next to the truly horrific fact that Eir is an atrocious parent.

    Eir: I wasn't what you needed. I know that. And I'm sorry, but... I had to be true to myself. I had to follow my legend.
    Eir: I didn't want to leave you behind. Believe me. I knew the cost. But if I'd stayed...what good to you would I have been?

    Bunch of BS excuses. What Braham needed was HIS MOM.
    Totally agree, terrible parent. Comes back from the dead to say, basically, "sorry not sorry kid, I had better stuff to do"

    She is a Norn. That a Norn makes not a good mother is the entire point.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭

    Plot holes do not make stories bad. All they do is give pedantic kittens something to point at and feel smart for noticing. Don't confuse self-righteous nit-picking with actual criticism (or worse, actual bad storytelling), as is popular on YouTube... or FoxNews.
    "They don't go to the police because it's boring." - Alfred Hitchcock, the father of horror movies.

    That being said, everything that happened is consistent with the rest of the world. Sohothin can damage Balthazar the same way Caladbolg hurt Mordremoth, or Glint's Spear could hurt Kralkatorrik... or fireballs can harm lava monsters, or lightning bolts can hurt living electricity, or rocks and bullets do anything to living tornadoes. Undead can get drunk the same way golems can, or ghosts. It all depends on what they're drinking and how they expect to feel. Speaking of ghosts, they can do whatever they want wherever they want... but have neither will nor purpose for doing so. Someone who they wouldn't question (for whatever reason) could give that to them.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    @Trise.2865 said:
    Plot holes do not make stories bad.

    Depends on the audience. Some folks can enjoy a piece without applying logic to it- like you pointed out, the horror genre essentially runs on that crowd- but some people can't. There are different kinds of enjoyment, some of it derived from atmosphere, some of it by masterful arrangement of plot elements, some of it from sheer rule of cool. There's a niche for just about anything out there.

    That said, a lore forum isn't going to attract all kinds equally, certainly not one entering its seventh year. The names who stick around are those who continue to have something to discuss, and when the discussion goes 'Wasn't that thrilling?', 'Oh yeah, it totally was!' it tends to die down pretty quickly, because there's nothing more to add beyond that point. That isn't to say that those merits of the story are worth less, just that this isn't the place their advocates tend to congregate around. 'Nit-picking', as you put it, gives you a whole lot more to talk about.

    And, for what it's worth, as someone who does struggle to enjoy a story that draws attention to it's plot holes- noticing does not make me feel smart, or superior. In fact, I tend to take it for granted that others have noticed the same thing. I don't get anything out of it- it's just a disappointment, or, in some cases, an irritant.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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