Scrapper directly competes against Holosmith for the same thing

Scrapper is now literally just personal stability and minor damage.What is holosmith? The same thing just with slightly less personal stability and major damage.

What do you use both in? PvP in WvW in which you'll be in team fights and have stability anyway. So it comes down to damage.

The only reason to ever even use scrapper now is JUST for the hammer skills. You can't even use sneak gyro in WvW because of the marked mechanic. Sneak gyro is pretty useless in PvP and totally useless in PvE as well. All gyros are completely useless in all game-modes. Function gyro also does not receive stability after the trait rework. How fucking useless is that? The entire class mechanic does not do anything anymore, and it was already mediocre to begin with.

There is no longer a purpose in using scrapper. Even if you want support condi clear or heals you can do the exact same thing on holosmith but be even more useful by taking the protection field. Those med kit scrappers would even be better off running holosmith.

All gyros need a rework and at least 50% of scrapper traits need a rework. Superspeed and barrier needs to be the crapper specialty along with a non-useless function gyro. Bulwark gyro? Bad. Blast gyro? Bad (Try using blast gyro on action cam btw it doesn't even work) Shredder gyro? Has never even once been good at any point ever. Purge gyro? Doesn't even clear for allies and will die instantly anyway like all gyros. Bulwark should be immune to physical damage, purge immune to condition etc. That's a start.

Purity of purpose = pure of purpose

Didn't test it to confirm, but I read that Purge Gyro doesn't even convert all conditions into boons if you take the trait purity of purpose, just the first 2 on cast. It seems the other conditions are considered "not cleared by the Scrapper, but by the gyro" and therefore the trait does not work.

Which is absolutely ridiculous. Scrapper should be a support tank spec and if Purge Gyro would actually work with this trait, it would be much better already. I agree with the rest you mention here, too. Scrapper needs it's own niche and that they heavily reduced the support aspect of the gyros by removing the lightning fields with super speed was a major mistake.

Gyros were supposed to be supportive minions, but they lost this identity completely now. And as if that isn't bad enough, we lost 6 lightning fields on scrapper and still have a trait that gives superspeed if we perform a blast or leap finisher in lightning fields. We just have hammer and Shredder Gyro (which, as you said, is useless beyond belief) if we want this trait working and it is absolutely not worth taking over the self barrier on heal or stability on dodge.

I hope they have alot more changes for Scrapper planned, because the elite spec is in a really bad spot right now.

We should probably give up on Function Gyro, tho.....This elite spec is some years old now and when it released they said they would add functionalities to it in the future to make the class mechanic not that disappointing.... nothing happened and no plans shared with us whatsoever.

gyros do work. stop complaining and make it happen.

Scrapper should be the "tanky" support master of superspeed. If them want to give it a damage choice, dont f*ck meta traits (which is just what they did) Anyway they just care about PvE, so no more. They should come back with Final Salvo, and rework some gyros.

A Support-Holo can double the cleanses of a scrapper.But even now the scrapper is overcleansing for at least three groups... So more cleanses are usually not needed.In a zwerg, bulwark gyro still brings merits. the group-stability, mobile projectile protection and damage reduction (which lasts 4s, even if the gyro is destroyed during that time).The hammer is an excellent weapon and I really miss it, if I run sword/shield on a support-holo.Aside from that, with rapid-regeneration and kinetic stabilizers you still have a large healing coming from the scrapper-traitline going to the MDF healing. The stability on dodge is also nice.If heat-therapy would trigger MDF, heal-holosmith might be a thing, but now it's pretty difficult to get to the 8-12k hps with a heal-holosmith.

That's why usually I use a Holo-build that combines damage, CC and cleanses and neglects heal.And a heal-Scrapper if I want to be a zerg healer

Holo was supposed to be a risky glass cannon spec, but it really doesn't play like one. I think a large part of the problem is the easy stab uptime through the eclipse trait.

IMO, if you want stab on Holo, you should have to pay for it with utility skills like Elixir B and Elixir U.

Scrapper was supposed to be a tanky brawler spec .. and it achieves this, but that has no place in the meta right now because the glass cannon specs like Soulbeast and Holo do way more damage while having as good or better survivability.

@"Dediggefedde.4961" said:A Support-Holo can double the cleanses of a scrapper.But even now the scrapper is overcleansing for at least three groups... So more cleanses are usually not needed.In a zwerg, bulwark gyro still brings merits. the group-stability, mobile projectile protection and damage reduction (which lasts 4s, even if the gyro is destroyed during that time).The hammer is an excellent weapon and I really miss it, if I run sword/shield on a support-holo.Aside from that, with rapid-regeneration and kinetic stabilizers you still have a large healing coming from the scrapper-traitline going to the MDF healing. The stability on dodge is also nice.If heat-therapy would trigger MDF, heal-holosmith might be a thing, but now it's pretty difficult to get to the 8-12k hps with a heal-holosmith.

That's why usually I use a Holo-build that combines damage, CC and cleanses and neglects heal.And a heal-Scrapper if I want to be a zerg healer

Actually I run thishttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQFASncoCFpitbB2XBEqilKjKMfKmvScZCgwjetr78G-j1BXAB/t/QPq/I+FAIEdAPoEc2HAAAK/AA-w

It's funny how most of Gyro skills are used because of their toolbelt skill. I guess we all remember what they said when they reworked turrets to the state they are in now?

I'm currently trying meta healing scrapper with a guild and keep coming to a conclusion that all core engineer needs to become a way better healer than scrapper is some substitute for Defense Field (not even bulwark gyro mind you, screw that thing).

People run rapid regen on scrapper, that's the main reason why it's support.

I mean you could do bunker down on holo or something... medical dispersion field without rapid regen is less potent probably.

@Ruufio.1496 said:The only reason to ever even use scrapper now is JUST for the hammer skills.

Or because you find it fun. People seem to engage in this zero-sum thinking in which if one Elite/Profession/build does the thing then another Elite/Profession/build is rendered useless and that simply is not true. If you enjoy Holosmith then play Holosmith. If you enjoy Scrapper then play Scrapper. The overlap does not render latter unplayable.

You can't even use sneak gyro in WvW because of the marked mechanic.

If you say so.

There is no longer a purpose in using scrapper. Even if you want support condi clear or heals you can do the exact same thing on holosmith but be even more useful by taking the protection field. Those med kit scrappers would even be better off running holosmith.

No purpose in using Scrapper? Calling BS on that one. Holosmith does not render Scrapper unplayable. Now, if you don't want to play Scrapper because Holosmith does the thing then, by all means, have at it. However, Scrapper is a lot of fun to play.

@coro.3176 said:Holo was supposed to be a risky glass cannon spec, but it really doesn't play like one. I think a large part of the problem is the easy stab uptime through the eclipse trait.

IMO, if you want stab on Holo, you should have to pay for it with utility skills like Elixir B and Elixir U.

Scrapper was supposed to be a tanky brawler spec .. and it achieves this, but that has no place in the meta right now because the glass cannon specs like Soulbeast and Holo do way more damage while having as good or better survivability.

Yeah, it sucks that Scrapper isn't meta. All Elites should be meta.

@"PeLi.5498" said:Actually I run thishttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQFASncoCFpitbB2XBEqilKjKMfKmvScZCgwjetr78G-j1BXAB/t/QPq/I+FAIEdAPoEc2HAAAK/AA-w

It all depends on what you want to do with it.Your build is not a healer, though.If you try to make a glass-cannon-scrapper, then of course it will compete with holo and be worse at it.In a zerg-setup you will also no benefit from shocking-speed, since you will likely miss most lightning-fields. For an offensive build, you should use applied force and perfectly weighted...Also if you focus everything on condition removal, holosmith will be better.

The thing where holosmith can not reach scrappers by far is their healing ability thanks to MDF, rapid-regen and comeback-cure together with medikit and the ticking fields of EG-5 and Mortar-5 (something like 6k hps avg, 12-17k hps on spikes). And with EG-3, Medikit-3, cleansing-synergy, EG-5 and light-fields it brings still a lot more cleanses than any other healing class (2-4 cleanses/s avg depending on build).

Personally I like to run althruism-rune with mortar for a free 1s-CD group-condi-clear. Having 100 stacks of poison on you is also fun... chilling-mist of the keeps is constantly converted to alacrity and a mortar-field gives free aegis, if you can stomach >20 stacks of burning (keep self-cleanse ready). Also with a second heal-scrapper we used althruism-rune to bounce conditions back and forth to get minutes of regeneration and alacrity. ^^

@Dediggefedde.4961 said:

@"PeLi.5498" said:Actually I run this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQFASncoCFpitbB2XBEqilKjKMfKmvScZCgwjetr78G-j1BXAB/t/QPq/I+FAIEdAPoEc2HAAAK/AA-w

When they fix the bug, Altruism rune will be forgotten.

Holosmith could or not be better in condition remoral. Hard light Area for example, is good but long cd and the rest of selfish skills. Reconstruction field can clean approximately the same condi number with the same cd (45-50s). A little bit less, with the difference that one is every 45s and the other is every 25. You can clean bursts more often. Not healing torret, but elixir gun kit do it work.

No logic for me in that in a zerg (or whatever) you have no benefinit from shocking speed. It counts all lighting fields, not just yours.For an offensive build you shouldnt use applied force and/or perfectly weighted. It depends your focus. I preffer to lose a little bit damage from 3s quickness and give teammattes ss. So you know, there is no black or white.

This build brings to the squad melee and ranged damage, cc, cleansy-buffs and deppends to your elite skill different thingsActually I run this with the guild and works really good. Zergs and public tags seems to me a little bit boring, so just play sometimes when I want to farm :V And in this case I take "typical" engi supp.

@"PeLi.5498" said:

...

I don't see a bug with althruism rune. Its downside is equaling the effect in my opinion.

gyro-F1: 25s CD, 5 pulses (0.2 puls/s); hardlight-arena: 45s CD, 13 pulses (0.29 puls/s).And they don't compete. What's competing is gyro-F1 against medkit-3Medikit-3 15s CD, 4 pulses (0.26 puls/s).A holo can use medkit and hardlight-arena and elixir-gun.From my experience, a normal healscrapper got something like 2-3 cleanse/s on average. a conversion-holo got something like 4-5 cleans/s. Now with antitoxin this basically doubles. So I'm quite sure, that holosmith removes more boons than a scrapper.It's just not healing well, and since at the moment, conditions are not much of a problem, they are not of much use aside from their protection output.

You need to trigger light fields yourself, though. they might come from someone else, but in a zerg fight, there are usually a lot of fields overlaying. It depends on your zerg's playstyle, though... I tried it, too, but I was unable to hit the few lightning-fields (like rev-streets) because of other fields...By the way, the "4s of quickness" is actually 4s every 10s, so a 40% uptime of quickness.But of course, both builds will probably work, so in the end, it's a matter of taste...

@Dediggefedde.4961 said:

@"PeLi.5498" said:

...

Depends on your build. If you run with elixir gun too, then maybe yes. Anyway like we said, is a build with a purpose in a coordinate squad. Usually I go in the raid leader party and sometimes he needs sneak gyro inv, or we need reveal, superspeed, ranged cc, etc. Isnt worse or better, just bring different things/ways. Always a pleasure to exchange ideas

But yes, There is a bug with altruism rune. It must trigger with Orbital Strike, not with equiping the mortar kit, which is a weapon swap and trigger like this. So probably some day they will fix this

I run the Gyros for the toolbelt abilities, not for the gyros themselves. And sneak gyro is only good to help you avoid getting ganked while running to tag.

I always thought making Scrapper the "superspeed" spec is just stupid from a conceptual standpoint. It's a bulky hammer user modeled after a juggernaut. It should do more cool gadgeteering type stuff with Gyros. Maybe some superspeed but not making it the focus...

All gyros are completely useless in all game-modes. Function gyro also does not receive stability after the trait rework. How kitten useless is that?

It's still usable. Only you have to stomp at the same time as your gyro. This forces them to have two targets they must CC, ensuring the stomp. Of course, you can also take your chances by tossing Elixir for stability.

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:I always thought making Scrapper the "superspeed" spec is just stupid from a conceptual standpoint. It's a bulky hammer user modeled after a juggernaut. It should do more cool gadgeteering type stuff with Gyros. Maybe some superspeed but not making it the focus...

All gyros are completely useless in all game-modes. Function gyro also does not receive stability after the trait rework. How kitten useless is that?

Yeah, great, our "elite spec mechanic", which is the poorest and worst mechanic from all 18 elite specs we have right now, is usable just as a distraction when you want to stomp someone.

Let's admit it, Function Gyro has always been embarrassing as an elite spec mechanic and with the latest change, making it even worse than it already was, it is much more obvious now than ever before. Anet told us that they will add functionalities to the gyro in the future, since the community was extremely unhappy that everyone got cool new mechanics to play with and we got.... this....

But, of course, nothing happened, Anet probably has completely forgotten about it.

I can agree that super speed might not have been the best fit, but if I am honest, the whole elite spec felt extremely rushed on release. It felt like they just reworked the entire thing 2 days before showing it to the audience. The animations were not ready to present them. The text introducing the Scrapper was talking about mechanics which didn't make it into the game.

There is so much stuff telling us that Anet had no clue what to do with engineer back then and just went "throw something at them and let's fix the mess later". This opportunity came with PoF and the barrier mechanic. But it seems that they are still not sure what to make out of Scrapper. I hope they will put more emphasize on his "supportive tank" aspect, giving him more barriers to share and helping his team staying alive.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I run the Gyros for the toolbelt abilities, not for the gyros themselves. And sneak gyro is only good to help you avoid getting ganked while running to tag.

I find Sneak Gyro good for repositioning in WvW. If they aren't using an AOE you can typically go dark long enough to get into a better spot to attack from.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:I always thought making Scrapper the "superspeed" spec is just stupid from a conceptual standpoint. It's a bulky hammer user modeled after a juggernaut. It should do more cool gadgeteering type stuff with Gyros. Maybe

some

superspeed but not making it the focus...

All gyros are completely useless in all game-modes. Function gyro also does not receive stability after the trait rework. How kitten useless is that?

It's called a ranged stomp. You can even drop a blind field, cast function gyro, then go somewhere else while it's stomping.

What is this cynical wall of text...

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I always thought making Scrapper the "superspeed" spec is just stupid from a conceptual standpoint. It's a bulky hammer user modeled after a juggernaut. It should do more cool gadgeteering type stuff with Gyros. Maybe

some

superspeed but not making it the focus...

All gyros are completely useless in all game-modes. Function gyro also does not receive stability after the trait rework. How kitten useless is that?

Experience.

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I always thought making Scrapper the "superspeed" spec is just stupid from a conceptual standpoint. It's a bulky hammer user modeled after a juggernaut. It should do more cool gadgeteering type stuff with Gyros. Maybe

some

superspeed but not making it the focus...

All gyros are completely useless in all game-modes. Function gyro also does not receive stability after the trait rework. How kitten useless is that?

Sadly, there are some folks who are underwhelmed by a ranged stomp. Personally, I think in the context of PvP and WvW that the Function Gyro does a very good job. Being able to stomp and revive from distance and without having to put yourself in direct danger (or vulnerability) is a strong mechanic. Where I can say it is truly lacking is in PvE content where you really don't need it .... like ever.

@Dace.8173 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I always thought making Scrapper the "superspeed" spec is just stupid from a conceptual standpoint. It's a bulky hammer user modeled after a juggernaut. It should do more cool gadgeteering type stuff with Gyros. Maybe

some

superspeed but not making it the focus...

All gyros are completely useless in all game-modes. Function gyro also does not receive stability after the trait rework. How kitten useless is that?

Function gyro as a "ranged" stomp is extremely underwhelming. It can be cleaved to death in a matter of a second or two, and it can actually run out of fuel before it finishes its stomp against certain classes (IE mesmer, thief). The only time it appears to have a use these days is in 1v1 scenarios, or +1 scenarios, which scrapper is not optimal for. It's decent as a ranged rez in PvE, but that also assumes your teammates messed up.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I always thought making Scrapper the "superspeed" spec is just stupid from a conceptual standpoint. It's a bulky hammer user modeled after a juggernaut. It should do more cool gadgeteering type stuff with Gyros. Maybe

some

superspeed but not making it the focus...

All gyros are completely useless in all game-modes. Function gyro also does not receive stability after the trait rework. How kitten useless is that?

Better they cleave the gyro than you. People always bring up this point, that the gyro can be destroyed but it ignores the fact that at least you're not dead. That's supposed to be the advantage, that instead of going down yourself they take out your gyro.

@Dace.8173 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I always thought making Scrapper the "superspeed" spec is just stupid from a conceptual standpoint. It's a bulky hammer user modeled after a juggernaut. It should do more cool gadgeteering type stuff with Gyros. Maybe

some

superspeed but not making it the focus...

All gyros are completely useless in all game-modes. Function gyro also does not receive stability after the trait rework. How kitten useless is that?

Elixir S is a way more secure stomp, always has been. Function gyro is generally used so you can multitask while it's functioning -- IE cleaving while it works its magic. But that doesn't mean a thing if it's dead while the enemy rezzes their buddy.