Discussion on Policy: Dual or Multi-Boxing. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Discussion on Policy: Dual or Multi-Boxing.

This discussion was created from comments split from: Policy: Dual or Multi-Boxing.

Comments

  • Etterwyn.5263Etterwyn.5263 Member ✭✭✭

    Is it okay if one account is in PVE and the other in WVW? I generally log on to both at once, and leave one account idle (guild hall or town) while doing dailies/etc on the other. I'll admit I used to pip down both at once before you buffed participation decay, but I don't have to do that anymore.

  • "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    Does this mean you are not allowed to do pvp dailies in pvp matches with several accounts if its in private arenas. Also what does "activities" mean, like keg brawl?

  • @Schnuschnu.9857 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    This should be permitted because it gives you an advantage over other players. You exist in multiple locations. A normal player can't do this. Simple as that.

    I think you mean "not permitted". And, indeed, the wording of the policy is crystal clear. It is, indeed, not permitted.

    @Biff.5312 said:
    Exercise your whimsy.

  • @Steve The Cynic.3217 said:

    I think you mean "not permitted". And, indeed, the wording of the policy is crystal clear. It is, indeed, not permitted.

    Yup, fixed it. Thanks.

  • Steve The Cynic.3217Steve The Cynic.3217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    Does this mean you are not allowed to do pvp dailies in pvp matches with several accounts if its in private arenas. Also what does "activities" mean, like keg brawl?

    I would read it as prohibiting multiboxing PvP dailies, except, I guess, if there's one like "Big Spender" in WvW.

    And for activities, clearly anything you do by visiting the Activity NPC in LA is an activity, and those things are players competing against players, and therefore count as "competitive environments". Keg Brawl in the western part of Hoelbrak? Not sure.

    EDIT: On the question of WvW Big Spender: I'd suggest that it's a bad idea to have two or more of your multibox accounts actually in WvW at once, even just to do Big Spender. Leave the idle ones idling in DR or similar, and go in one account at a time, see the vendor, spend the tokens, exit WvW, wait for the other map to load, go to the next account.

    @Biff.5312 said:
    Exercise your whimsy.

  • I'll throw in another observation. In general, asking the sort of questions I've seen so far suggests that people want to skate close to the edges of the policy, and in my experience, that's asking for trouble. (That idea is sometimes phrased as "If you feel it necessary to ask if thing X is prohibited by the policy, it probably is.")

    @Biff.5312 said:
    Exercise your whimsy.

  • TallBarr.2184TallBarr.2184 Member ✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Steve The Cynic.3217 said:
    I'll throw in another observation. In general, asking the sort of questions I've seen so far suggests that people want to skate close to the edges of the policy, and in my experience, that's asking for trouble. (That idea is sometimes phrased as "If you feel it necessary to ask if thing X is prohibited by the policy, it probably is.")

    Their previous policies have been vague and perceived differently from both players and GMs so i dont see why questions regarding the updated policy shouldnt be asked. I personally dont do pvp dailies in personal arenas but people on reddit voiced their concerns with the pvp dailies done in the personal arenas if it was allowed or not. Doing dailies in a private arena happens in a competetive gamemode but it doesnt effect other players.

  • @Schnuschnu.9857 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    This should be not permitted because it gives you an advantage over other players. You exist in multiple locations. A normal player can't do this. Simple as that.

    Same thing could be said about multiboxing in general then, i can "exist" on multiple locations in pve aswell. As for advantage over other players any player can have multiple accounts. Playing wvw or pvp with voicecoms gives you an advantage aswell if the enemy team doesnt have it. Scouting is a trivial thing both teams do, it doesnt give you any substantial advantage other then doing something people dont generally enjoy. As a commander i wouldnt have to beg and ask people to scout something when i can do it myself.

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?

    I used to compete in many games and this would definitely be cheating in an environment when you’re using this against other players. If Anet is certain you’re multiboxing, your account can get banned for something like this.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Schnuschnu.9857 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    This should be not permitted because it gives you an advantage over other players. You exist in multiple locations. A normal player can't do this. Simple as that.

    Same thing could be said about multiboxing in general then, i can "exist" on multiple locations in pve aswell. As for advantage over other players any player can have multiple accounts. Playing wvw or pvp with voicecoms gives you an advantage aswell if the enemy team doesnt have it. Scouting is a trivial thing both teams do, it doesnt give you any substantial advantage other then doing something people dont generally enjoy. As a commander i wouldnt have to beg and ask people to scout something when i can do it myself.

    There are multiple issues at stake here though. First off, the reward structure in spvp and wvw is a lot more multibox friendly (not to mention afk leechers or bots) compared to general pve.

    Second, and specific to wvw, your multiboxed characters are taking away active slots from other characters on the map. That is an issue, especially since on fuller servers there will be queues. Now one could argue you might log out your extra characters when prime time hits, but the general rules can't take into account benevolent action from single players because there might just as well be players who would simply keep occupying the wvw slots.

  • @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Schnuschnu.9857 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    This should be not permitted because it gives you an advantage over other players. You exist in multiple locations. A normal player can't do this. Simple as that.

    Same thing could be said about multiboxing in general then, i can "exist" on multiple locations in pve aswell.

    Correct, but that doesn't give you a direct competitive advantage in a player (team) versus player (team) game mode. It doesn't matter that others can do it. To get the advantage that you directly have, they must do it, so the Powers That Be have decided to avoid all sorts of issues (including an element of P2W, given that multiboxing isn't free, even though you aren't paying that money to ArenaNet themselves) by prohibiting it.

    @Biff.5312 said:
    Exercise your whimsy.

  • TallBarr.2184TallBarr.2184 Member ✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Schnuschnu.9857 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    This should be not permitted because it gives you an advantage over other players. You exist in multiple locations. A normal player can't do this. Simple as that.

    Same thing could be said about multiboxing in general then, i can "exist" on multiple locations in pve aswell. As for advantage over other players any player can have multiple accounts. Playing wvw or pvp with voicecoms gives you an advantage aswell if the enemy team doesnt have it. Scouting is a trivial thing both teams do, it doesnt give you any substantial advantage other then doing something people dont generally enjoy. As a commander i wouldnt have to beg and ask people to scout something when i can do it myself.

    There are multiple issues at stake here though. First off, the reward structure in spvp and wvw is a lot more multibox friendly (not to mention afk leechers or bots) compared to general pve.

    Second, and specific to wvw, your multiboxed characters are taking away active slots from other characters on the map. That is an issue, especially since on fuller servers there will be queues. Now one could argue you might log out your extra characters when prime time hits, but the general rules can't take into account benevolent action from single players because there might just as well be players who would simply keep occupying the wvw slots.

    If i wanted scouts as a commander i would ask my squad, not many would be interested and most of the times they would want payment for it, which is acceptable for how boring it is. By using my alts i wouldnt need to ask people to do it, i could do it for as long and wherever i wanted. If its not my characters it will be someone else doing it. There are 4 different borders to chose from its not like 3 scouts is gonna mess it up for everyone, there are more single account players simply afking at any given time.

    The shared partcipation is there for scouters, thats why it was implemented. You cant just give out shared participation, you would need to have a squad with enough members to get the slots.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think having two sets of eyes at the same time gives you an unfair advantage. I mean you could park alts in forts just to keep an eye on them as just one person. That is a huge tactical advantage.They can't really forbid it if you have multiple computers to do that because then they cannot assume it's the same person playing.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?

    I used to compete in many games and this would definitely be cheating in an environment when you’re using this against other players. If Anet is certain you’re multiboxing, your account can get banned for something like this.

    Using voicecoms in any competetive gamemode gives you advantages but to do that you would need a headset and a mic, i dont use voicecoms when i lead and i dont have a headset with mic does that mean using voicecoms is cheating? Anyone can invest in a headset or a second copy of the game if they want to.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Schnuschnu.9857 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    This should be not permitted because it gives you an advantage over other players. You exist in multiple locations. A normal player can't do this. Simple as that.

    Same thing could be said about multiboxing in general then, i can "exist" on multiple locations in pve aswell. As for advantage over other players any player can have multiple accounts. Playing wvw or pvp with voicecoms gives you an advantage aswell if the enemy team doesnt have it. Scouting is a trivial thing both teams do, it doesnt give you any substantial advantage other then doing something people dont generally enjoy. As a commander i wouldnt have to beg and ask people to scout something when i can do it myself.

    There are multiple issues at stake here though. First off, the reward structure in spvp and wvw is a lot more multibox friendly (not to mention afk leechers or bots) compared to general pve.

    Second, and specific to wvw, your multiboxed characters are taking away active slots from other characters on the map. That is an issue, especially since on fuller servers there will be queues. Now one could argue you might log out your extra characters when prime time hits, but the general rules can't take into account benevolent action from single players because there might just as well be players who would simply keep occupying the wvw slots.

    If i wanted scouts as a commander i would ask my squad, not many would be interested and most of the times they would want payment for it, which is acceptable for how boring it is. By using my alts i wouldnt need to ask people to do it, i could do it for as long and wherever i wanted.

    Thus you are automatically entering an area where this gives you an advantage over the other sides, provided no one there does this. Even if they did, the moment they went up against a server or server composition which doesn't, people would get disadvantaged.

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    If its not my characters it will be someone else doing it.

    That is of no consequence as far as legality goes. Doing something unacceptable is not justified by saying some one else would do it instead if you didn't. That's not how rules work.

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    There are 4 different borders to chose from its not like 3 scouts is gonna mess it up for everyone, there are more single account players simply afking at any given time.

    Two wrongs do not make a right. Single player afk accounts are not allowed and require action. That does not justify that you get to log 3 characters. That said, what about person B who wants to log his 3 characters, and person C who wants to log their 3 characters? You are either in a unique position getting an advantage, or the problem scales up to where people can't enter wvw. Both are not acceptable.

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    The shared partcipation is there for scouters, thats why it was implemented. You cant just give out shared participation, you would need to have a squad with enough members to get the slots.

    The shared participation is there to be given out to active players and encourage scouting. It is not there for the commanders personal scout army.

  • Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments.

    This should exclude personal arena. The locked arena where I'm alone with my boxes doing daily is nowhere near competitive. It does not affect other players and there are basically no rewards to exploit.

  • @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?

    I used to compete in many games and this would definitely be cheating in an environment when you’re using this against other players. If Anet is certain you’re multiboxing, your account can get banned for something like this.

    Using voicecoms in any competetive gamemode gives you advantages but to do that you would need a headset and a mic, i dont use voicecoms when i lead and i dont have a headset with mic does that mean using voicecoms is cheating? Anyone can invest in a headset or a second copy of the game if they want to.

    Where in the GW2 policy does it state that voice coms are not allowed? Because now it clearly states that multiboxing is not allowed. You have no argument point with these changes, it's now clearly against policy to multibox in wvw, so stop trying to justify it, just stop doing it.

  • Update that wvw policy, if we have to control attentive why shouldn't it be allowed., it does not give any advantage OVER anybody.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    Meh. I'd say just keep on doing it. If you've been playing WvW for a long time, you know how much they play or police the game mode. At worst you'll take a slap on the wrist for punishment. I've seen enough hacks that still persist today and people in my block list come back into the game after committing game-breaking hacks (passing through walls, not taking damage or dying, infinite teleports). Compared to those, multi-boxing for scouting purposes is nothing.

    Hi.

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?

    I used to compete in many games and this would definitely be cheating in an environment when you’re using this against other players. If Anet is certain you’re multiboxing, your account can get banned for something like this.

    Using voicecoms in any competetive gamemode gives you advantages but to do that you would need a headset and a mic, i dont use voicecoms when i lead and i dont have a headset with mic does that mean using voicecoms is cheating? Anyone can invest in a headset or a second copy of the game if they want to.

    Those are very different.

    In games like GW2's WvW, stealth is a big part of the strategy, attacking a base when the enemy is not aware. The players are granted vision of their own character's FOV. They're not meant to have access to 2 screens so that they can see one area of the game to see what the enemy is doing, while playing in another part of the game. That goes against the design of the game. Having voice communication for better communication is not against the design of the game mode. Hence, the difference. Not only that, by having a player's slot taken up for your second screen, you're creating a disadvantage for your team. That you have another screen to help alleviate that is not an excuse as 2 wrongs do not make a right.

    Every player who cheats has excuses on why their cheating is not cheating and how it's justified. If Anet allowed these, then the game would be an unplayable mess. This is why every competition has rules and all players who play must comply with those rules. Otherwise, the game loses its integrity. If you purposefully break the stated rules without really good reasons, you can get banned and Anet won’t care what your justifications are.

  • @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    According to the word of the law no, but neither is using macros to play instruments and we all know Anet gives 0 kitten if you have a program mash 50 keys for you as long as it's to play Sandstorm on a harp.

    The pvp/WvW thing is just there to prevent people from match fixing or other general shenanigans. I doubt you're gonna get banned for having a scout account in a tower as long as it on your own server and you aren't using a macro/bot to keep it from afk timing out.

  • mauried.5608mauried.5608 Member ✭✭✭

    Ive often wondered about common phrase of a player gaining an advantage over someone else, and that should be banned somehow.
    A player with a super upmarket computer with a hi speed internet link with no latency, has a super advantage over a player with an old laptop connected via a low speed
    ADSL link on the other side of the world, but this isnt considered as something thats bannable.

  • This make me wonder:
    Do 2 or more PC connected to the same internet connection are counted as multiboxing?
    For example, i invite my friend at my home and he bring his laptop/own pc so we can play together in WvW. Will this be an infraction of the new policy?
    Are the festive events ( jumping puzzles, bell choir, toyapocalipse, Halloween labyrinth ) counted as well?

  • @Shagaliscious.6281 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?

    I used to compete in many games and this would definitely be cheating in an environment when you’re using this against other players. If Anet is certain you’re multiboxing, your account can get banned for something like this.

    Using voicecoms in any competetive gamemode gives you advantages but to do that you would need a headset and a mic, i dont use voicecoms when i lead and i dont have a headset with mic does that mean using voicecoms is cheating? Anyone can invest in a headset or a second copy of the game if they want to.

    Where in the GW2 policy does it state that voice coms are not allowed? Because now it clearly states that multiboxing is not allowed. You have no argument point with these changes, it's now clearly against policy to multibox in wvw, so stop trying to justify it, just stop doing it.

    Nowhere, but people say multiboxing is "cheating" or "unfair advantage" and that its "p2w" beacuse you have to buy the game copies, you also have to buy headser with a mic to use and listen to voicecoms. Multiboxing have never been a problem in wvw before. Is it a problem some people make accounts on their enemy servers to grief and spy - absolutely, but there are also legitimate ways to multibox is wvw.

    It not being allowed in pvp makes sense, beacuse people have been signing up for pvp tournaments and then just afk with their team.

  • @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?

    I used to compete in many games and this would definitely be cheating in an environment when you’re using this against other players. If Anet is certain you’re multiboxing, your account can get banned for something like this.

    Using voicecoms in any competetive gamemode gives you advantages but to do that you would need a headset and a mic, i dont use voicecoms when i lead and i dont have a headset with mic does that mean using voicecoms is cheating? Anyone can invest in a headset or a second copy of the game if they want to.

    Those are very different.

    In games like GW2's WvW, stealth is a big part of the strategy, attacking a base when the enemy is not aware. The players are granted vision of their own character's FOV. They're not meant to have access to 2 screens so that they can see one area of the game to see what the enemy is doing, while playing in another part of the game. That goes against the design of the game. Having voice communication for better communication is not against the design of the game mode. Hence, the difference. Not only that, by having a player's slot taken up for your second screen, you're creating a disadvantage for your team. That you have another screen to help alleviate that is not an excuse as 2 wrongs do not make a right.

    Every player who cheats has excuses on why their cheating is not cheating and how it's justified. If Anet allowed these, then the game would be an unplayable mess. This is why every competition has rules and all players who play must comply with those rules. Otherwise, the game loses its integrity. If you purposefully break the stated rules without really good reasons, you can get banned and Anet won’t care what your justifications are.

    If voicecom is not against the design of the game why is there no ingame voicecom. That stealth you mention is why scouts exist, if i didnt scout someone else would scout. Does it give me a advantage? maybe, but its available to anyone with more then 1 account. Do people gried with several accounts and spy on enemies, of course and they should be handled individually not a flat out no multiboxing allowed even if all of your accounts are on the same world.

  • Nobody is going to confess to doing this, but we all know there are commanders who place alt accounts on enemy servers. Their "scouts" stand at spawn for hours on end. They do this to easily view where enemy tags are located. Some are even bold enough to troll, and clog up /t chat (it really doesn't take much to start a salt-throwing contest). The additional advantage of course is for each alt account standing at spawn, there is one enemy player who can't get through the queue and fight.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Schnuschnu.9857 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    This should be not permitted because it gives you an advantage over other players. You exist in multiple locations. A normal player can't do this. Simple as that.

    Same thing could be said about multiboxing in general then, i can "exist" on multiple locations in pve aswell. As for advantage over other players any player can have multiple accounts. Playing wvw or pvp with voicecoms gives you an advantage aswell if the enemy team doesnt have it. Scouting is a trivial thing both teams do, it doesnt give you any substantial advantage other then doing something people dont generally enjoy. As a commander i wouldnt have to beg and ask people to scout something when i can do it myself.

    There are multiple issues at stake here though. First off, the reward structure in spvp and wvw is a lot more multibox friendly (not to mention afk leechers or bots) compared to general pve.

    Second, and specific to wvw, your multiboxed characters are taking away active slots from other characters on the map. That is an issue, especially since on fuller servers there will be queues. Now one could argue you might log out your extra characters when prime time hits, but the general rules can't take into account benevolent action from single players because there might just as well be players who would simply keep occupying the wvw slots.

    If i wanted scouts as a commander i would ask my squad, not many would be interested and most of the times they would want payment for it, which is acceptable for how boring it is. By using my alts i wouldnt need to ask people to do it, i could do it for as long and wherever i wanted. If its not my characters it will be someone else doing it. There are 4 different borders to chose from its not like 3 scouts is gonna mess it up for everyone, there are more single account players simply afking at any given time.

    The shared partcipation is there for scouters, thats why it was implemented. You cant just give out shared participation, you would need to have a squad with enough members to get the slots.

    if 3 scouts is not important, then why are you doing it? the adavntage is clear, since wvw benefits from intel because response time is a factor.

    the flaw is you’re pitching a workaround as the intended solution to a design problem compounded with a social problem.

    thats not acceptable because someone is now getting a mechanical advantage thats external to the game (in either software,acccounts, and hardware). Its also interfering with legitimate players ability to participate in wvw by taking up active map slots and server populaion caps.

    These need to be addessed by design. but in the meantime that doesnt give free reign to go against the spirit of the game mode. wvw is about a community cooperating to win a war.... people might not treat it like that, but avoiding it rather then tackling it only prolongs the problem.

    and frankly wvw has suffered for far too long with community problems and guilds not wanting to pitch in. thats something no amount of reward stacking is going to fix

  • @Tibicia.8315 said:
    Nobody is going to confess to doing this, but we all know there are commanders who place alt accounts on enemy servers. Their "scouts" stand at spawn for hours on end. They do this to easily view where enemy tags are located. Some are even bold enough to troll, and clog up /t chat (it really doesn't take much to start a salt-throwing contest). The additional advantage of course is for each alt account standing at spawn, there is one enemy player who can't get through the queue and fight.

    Yeah i'm sure of that, and that behaviour shouldnt be allowed and people who do it should be punished accordingly. But saying flat no to multiboxing in wvw is like saying flat no to raid selling and other services for payment, some of these services are paid by RMT which is not allowed, and Anet have stated that themselves.
    As long as:
    1) the alt accounts are on the same server
    2) the alts dont just stand at spawn doing kitten all
    3) the alts are responsive if messaged by GM
    I dont see the problem with multiboxing in wvw

    I see people bring up the argument that somehow these scouts would clog up the borders, how often is every border full? from my own experience not very often depending what tier world you are on of course. If a map is queued u sit in queue for that border and play on another border in the meantime, its not like those players cant play the gamemode. All borders are full? go play eotm till you get in.

    To get rewards from your alts you would need to have shared participation otherwise your participation runs out, for that you would need to have a squad with enough members, there are only a limited amount of shared partcipation spots available. People are not going to scout if they dont get rewarded for doing so, either from players sending them stuff or from shared partcipation.

  • @starlinvf.1358 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Schnuschnu.9857 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    This should be not permitted because it gives you an advantage over other players. You exist in multiple locations. A normal player can't do this. Simple as that.

    Same thing could be said about multiboxing in general then, i can "exist" on multiple locations in pve aswell. As for advantage over other players any player can have multiple accounts. Playing wvw or pvp with voicecoms gives you an advantage aswell if the enemy team doesnt have it. Scouting is a trivial thing both teams do, it doesnt give you any substantial advantage other then doing something people dont generally enjoy. As a commander i wouldnt have to beg and ask people to scout something when i can do it myself.

    There are multiple issues at stake here though. First off, the reward structure in spvp and wvw is a lot more multibox friendly (not to mention afk leechers or bots) compared to general pve.

    Second, and specific to wvw, your multiboxed characters are taking away active slots from other characters on the map. That is an issue, especially since on fuller servers there will be queues. Now one could argue you might log out your extra characters when prime time hits, but the general rules can't take into account benevolent action from single players because there might just as well be players who would simply keep occupying the wvw slots.

    If i wanted scouts as a commander i would ask my squad, not many would be interested and most of the times they would want payment for it, which is acceptable for how boring it is. By using my alts i wouldnt need to ask people to do it, i could do it for as long and wherever i wanted. If its not my characters it will be someone else doing it. There are 4 different borders to chose from its not like 3 scouts is gonna mess it up for everyone, there are more single account players simply afking at any given time.

    The shared partcipation is there for scouters, thats why it was implemented. You cant just give out shared participation, you would need to have a squad with enough members to get the slots.

    if 3 scouts is not important, then why are you doing it? the adavntage is clear, since wvw benefits from intel because response time is a factor.

    the flaw is you’re pitching a workaround as the intended solution to a design problem compounded with a social problem.

    thats not acceptable because someone is now getting a mechanical advantage thats external to the game (in either software,acccounts, and hardware). Its also interfering with legitimate players ability to participate in wvw by taking up active map slots and server populaion caps.

    These need to be addessed by design. but in the meantime that doesnt give free reign to go against the spirit of the game mode. wvw is about a community cooperating to win a war.... people might not treat it like that, but avoiding it rather then tackling it only prolongs the problem.

    and frankly wvw has suffered for far too long with community problems and guilds not wanting to pitch in. thats something no amount of reward stacking is going to fix

    Where in my post do i say 3 scouts is not important. Yes its a about a community cooperating to win a war and for that to be successful i would argue that a commander willing to tag up is the most important part. Me scouting on my alts while commanding helps me do a better job commandign which helps the community. Scouting on alts for your server is available to everyone with more then 1 account, multiboxing is a legitimate way of playing the game by Anet if you follow the rules.

    1) you would help your server scouting which is part fo the gamemode
    2) you would need to eb responsive when GM messages you like everywhere else in the game

    Since when is getting a advantage ingame by legitimate means something bad, i say kudos to people who streamline the way they play the game as long as its within the rules of the game.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2019

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @Schnuschnu.9857 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    "Multi-boxing may ONLY be used in PvE areas. You are not permitted to run multiple accounts simultaneously in PvP, WvW, activities, or in other competitive environments."

    When i command wvw i would usually have alt accounts positioned in towers or other borders to scout. Is this not permitted with the updated policy?
    I understand if you dont want people to afk in wvw but actively scouting is part of the gamemode and usually frowned upon beacuse its boring. It should be encouraged not discouraged.

    This should be not permitted because it gives you an advantage over other players. You exist in multiple locations. A normal player can't do this. Simple as that.

    Same thing could be said about multiboxing in general then, i can "exist" on multiple locations in pve aswell. As for advantage over other players any player can have multiple accounts. Playing wvw or pvp with voicecoms gives you an advantage aswell if the enemy team doesnt have it. Scouting is a trivial thing both teams do, it doesnt give you any substantial advantage other then doing something people dont generally enjoy. As a commander i wouldnt have to beg and ask people to scout something when i can do it myself.

    There are multiple issues at stake here though. First off, the reward structure in spvp and wvw is a lot more multibox friendly (not to mention afk leechers or bots) compared to general pve.

    Second, and specific to wvw, your multiboxed characters are taking away active slots from other characters on the map. That is an issue, especially since on fuller servers there will be queues. Now one could argue you might log out your extra characters when prime time hits, but the general rules can't take into account benevolent action from single players because there might just as well be players who would simply keep occupying the wvw slots.

    If i wanted scouts as a commander i would ask my squad, not many would be interested and most of the times they would want payment for it, which is acceptable for how boring it is. By using my alts i wouldnt need to ask people to do it, i could do it for as long and wherever i wanted. If its not my characters it will be someone else doing it. There are 4 different borders to chose from its not like 3 scouts is gonna mess it up for everyone, there are more single account players simply afking at any given time.

    The shared partcipation is there for scouters, thats why it was implemented. You cant just give out shared participation, you would need to have a squad with enough members to get the slots.

    if 3 scouts is not important, then why are you doing it? the adavntage is clear, since wvw benefits from intel because response time is a factor.

    the flaw is you’re pitching a workaround as the intended solution to a design problem compounded with a social problem.

    thats not acceptable because someone is now getting a mechanical advantage thats external to the game (in either software,acccounts, and hardware). Its also interfering with legitimate players ability to participate in wvw by taking up active map slots and server populaion caps.

    These need to be addessed by design. but in the meantime that doesnt give free reign to go against the spirit of the game mode. wvw is about a community cooperating to win a war.... people might not treat it like that, but avoiding it rather then tackling it only prolongs the problem.

    and frankly wvw has suffered for far too long with community problems and guilds not wanting to pitch in. thats something no amount of reward stacking is going to fix

    Where in my post do i say 3 scouts is not important. Yes its a about a community cooperating to win a war and for that to be successful i would argue that a commander willing to tag up is the most important part. Me scouting on my alts while commanding helps me do a better job commandign which helps the community. Scouting on alts for your server is available to everyone with more then 1 account, multiboxing is a legitimate way of playing the game by Anet if you follow the rules.

    1) you would help your server scouting which is part fo the gamemode
    2) you would need to eb responsive when GM messages you like everywhere else in the game

    Since when is getting a advantage ingame by legitimate means something bad, i say kudos to people who streamline the way they play the game as long as its within the rules of the game.

    But that's just it, if the current and now repeated official position is to be believed, multiboxing in WvW is not legitimate and within the rules of the game. At least according to the developer of this game.

    Now you can complain that different game modes get different treatment and rules, but until the stance changes, it's Arenanets call.

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    If voicecom is not against the design of the game why is there no ingame voicecom. That stealth you mention is why scouts exist, if i didnt scout someone else would scout. Does it give me a advantage? maybe, but its available to anyone with more then 1 account. Do people gried with several accounts and spy on enemies, of course and they should be handled individually not a flat out no multiboxing allowed even if all of your accounts are on the same world.

    Whether the game has developer built voice comm or not is not the point. The point is the players' action. Players are free to take whatever actions in-game or use any devices not created by the devs, as long as they don't break the rules. A player using bugs and exploits to do what is not allowed, even without using any outside tools, is cheating. A player playing by the rules, using outside devices approved by the devs, is not cheating.

    As for raid selling, the reason this is allowed is because it is not a competition. The reason players are allowed to multibox outside pvp and wvw is because open world pve is not a competition. Since this is not a competition, other players are not directly affected by these. Just because one is jealous somebody else had an easier time is not competition. Whatever your definition or interpretation of competition is, is meaningless.

    The reason you cannot multibox in wvw is because that is a competition against other players. If you want to have a scout, you need to have actual players manually scouting and then try to properly communicate with other players, who cannot actually see what is going on and, therefore, do not have the full info. Having a second screen for you to automatically see 100% of the information going on somewhere else at all times is cheating in a competition. You're directly cheating against other players following the rules, which creates a negative experience for everybody else involved in that competition. Whatever your definition or interpretation of cheating is, is meaningless.

    Why are your definitions meaningless? Because you do not set the rules. Anet sets the rules. You do not decide what is cheating in this game. Anet decides what is cheating in this game. And if you want to play in a competition against other players in Anet's game, you have to follow Anet's rules. Going against Anet's rules and design of what is allowed is the very definition of cheating and breaking the rules.

    Again, before you post even more excuses to justify your actions and try to convince others to your rules, if you want to play Anet's game, you have to follow Anet's rules. Breaking their rules and making excuses trying to justify your actions is pointless and a waste of people's time. Anet’s rules are designed for fair competition for all players involved. The game does not revolve around just your fun and convenience. Other players are not following the rules just so you can kitten on them. If you want to play with other players in Anet's game, follow Anet's rules in Anet's game!

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @RSLongK.8961 said:
    Update that wvw policy, if we have to control attentive why shouldn't it be allowed., it does not give any advantage OVER anybody.

    Umm well yes it does, coming from a game that allowed MB'ing in pvp when all the boxer has to do is press one button to shoot one spell 60 times at the same target in one shot, no one can defend against that. Its an instakill without the possibility of being able to react. I dont care how MBers want to paint it its an advantage. I cant even believe they allow multiboxing in this game to begin with.

  • TallBarr.2184TallBarr.2184 Member ✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    If voicecom is not against the design of the game why is there no ingame voicecom. That stealth you mention is why scouts exist, if i didnt scout someone else would scout. Does it give me a advantage? maybe, but its available to anyone with more then 1 account. Do people gried with several accounts and spy on enemies, of course and they should be handled individually not a flat out no multiboxing allowed even if all of your accounts are on the same world.

    Whether the game has developer built voice comm or not is not the point. The point is the players' action. Players are free to take whatever actions in-game or use any devices not created by the devs, as long as they don't break the rules. A player using bugs and exploits to do what is not allowed, even without using any outside tools, is cheating. A player playing by the rules, using outside devices approved by the devs, is not cheating.

    As for raid selling, the reason this is allowed is because it is not a competition. The reason players are allowed to multibox outside pvp and wvw is because open world pve is not a competition. Since this is not a competition, other players are not directly affected by these. Just because one is jealous somebody else had an easier time is not competition. Whatever your definition or interpretation of competition is, is meaningless.

    The reason you cannot multibox in wvw is because that is a competition against other players. If you want to have a scout, you need to have actual players manually scouting and then try to properly communicate with other players, who cannot actually see what is going on and, therefore, do not have the full info. Having a second screen for you to automatically see 100% of the information going on somewhere else at all times is cheating in a competition. You're directly cheating against other players following the rules, which creates a negative experience for everybody else involved in that competition. Whatever your definition or interpretation of cheating is, is meaningless.

    Why are your definitions meaningless? Because you do not set the rules. Anet sets the rules. You do not decide what is cheating in this game. Anet decides what is cheating in this game. And if you want to play in a competition against other players in Anet's game, you have to follow Anet's rules. Going against Anet's rules and design of what is allowed is the very definition of cheating and breaking the rules.

    Again, before you post even more excuses to justify your actions and try to convince others to your rules, if you want to play Anet's game, you have to follow Anet's rules. Breaking their rules and making excuses trying to justify your actions is pointless and a waste of people's time. Anet’s rules are designed for fair competition for all players involved. The game does not revolve around just your fun and convenience. Other players are not following the rules just so you can kitten on them. If you want to play with other players in Anet's game, follow Anet's rules in Anet's game!

    Multiboxing has been alowed for as long as i can remember as long as you follow their policy of being responsive when a GM messages you and not getting rewards while being afk. Only in this updated policy have they done a complete 180 and not allow it at all. I have not read anywhere that scouting on more then 1 account would be CHEATING or it ever was CHEATING, or EXPLOITING (kitten?) but if that exists somewhere you are free to link it. Knowing Anet they will never say why its forbidden now, it could be beacuse of griefers pulling enemy tacivators, it could be people spying on their enemy servers, we will never know, and neither will you.

    I havent broken any rules by scouting with alt accounts before this policy change so i dont have to justify anything, i have obliged with the multiboxing rules which are:
    1) Each account must be attended at all times.
    2) Each account must be operated independently of each other.
    3) Accounts must not be operated simultaneously using macros or bots.
    4) One keystroke should translate to one action on one account.
    Here's what you should keep in mind if you plan to run multiple clients:

    5) You may use more than one account at the same time.
    6) You may use more than one computer at the same time.
    7) You must be actively playing on each account.
    8) You may NOT program your keyboard to perform functions on more than one account at a time. For example, if you press [W] on your keyboard to move forward, a single character on a single account should move forward. The keystroke or mouse click should not perform functions on more than one account.
    9) You may not use a macro to activate the skills of a character or multiple characters on more than one account.
    10) You may not use third-party botting tools to manage and play any number of characters, or to engage in unattended gameplay.

    if you want to play Anet's game, you have to follow Anet's rules. Yeah i'm not going to risk my accounts over bringing my accounts into wvw for the small rewards and the miniscule advantage it would give me while commanding, i will just tell people to do the scouting instead. If they dont want players legitimately play their game with multiboxing i will stop doing it. But this post is about the policy change and if people cant voice their concerns maybe they should not make discussion posts about the subject.

    Its clear that Anet treat the gamemodes differently by reading their updated policy on other subjects and gamemodes:

    "Second, after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules."

    So they learn that large transfers were often involved in RMT, which is not allowed. Why not forbid raid selling completely then? How can a few rotten eggs griefing or spying on the enemy server change the policies for wvw. Again Anet shows their inconsistency when making their policies depending what gamemode it is which is sad.

  • @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @RSLongK.8961 said:
    Update that wvw policy, if we have to control attentive why shouldn't it be allowed., it does not give any advantage OVER anybody.

    Umm well yes it does, coming from a game that allowed MB'ing in pvp when all the boxer has to do is press one button to shoot one spell 60 times at the same target in one shot, no one can defend against that. Its an instakill without the possibility of being able to react. I dont care how MBers want to paint it its an advantage. I cant even believe they allow multiboxing in this game to begin with.

    Its already not allowed to macro so all accounts would attack simultaneously so i dont see your problem.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    In the updated policy about raid selling they state that:

    "Second, after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules."

    So they learn that large transfers were often involved in RMT, which is not allowed. Why not forbid raid selling completely then? again Anet shows their inconsistency when making their policies depending what gamemode it is which is sad.

    There exists a separate thread for this discussion.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • @kharmin.7683 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    In the updated policy about raid selling they state that:

    "Second, after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules."

    So they learn that large transfers were often involved in RMT, which is not allowed. Why not forbid raid selling completely then? again Anet shows their inconsistency when making their policies depending what gamemode it is which is sad.

    There exists a separate thread for this discussion.

    OP brings up raid selling, i am fully aware there is a thread for raid selling.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:

    In the updated policy about raid selling they state that:

    "Second, after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules."

    So they learn that large transfers were often involved in RMT, which is not allowed. Why not forbid raid selling completely then? again Anet shows their inconsistency when making their policies depending what gamemode it is which is sad.

    There exists a separate thread for this discussion.

    OP brings up raid selling, i am fully aware there is a thread for raid selling.

    I just linked it so that others reading through this thread wouldn't derail the topic.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    snip

    You're right that I don't know Anet's reason. It could very well be different from mine. However, I used to work in a game company, competed nationally in video games, and helped to set up tournaments in the past. The points I made were based on my knowledge and experience in these areas and odds are, Anet's reasoning will be fairly well aligned with my reasonings. But in the absence of Anet's official response, all I can do is share the info I have based on my experience, and my info should be accurate enough. There's not a single tournament in the world I've been involved in where multi-boxing, of any kind, would be allowed. And while regular matches are not tournaments, they still affect other players negatively.

    You're also right that you're free to voice your opinions on this matter. I'm not saying you can't, it was just getting annoying dealing with more players trying to justify what is not allowed. I apologize if my post was too aggressive. If Anet allowed multi-boxing in the past and you were only doing what Anet allowed, I can understand your frustration that the money you spent on alt accounts is now wasted.

    As for raid selling, as I mentioned, this is probably because raid selling is not a competition and does not affect other players. Different modes have different functions so a global rule cannot be applied to everything. As for it involving RMT, the problem is RMT, not the raid selling itself. Punishing raid selling itself would just be making a scapegoat out of it when the real problem is RMT. For example, if some criminal thinks it's OK to run over people with cars, attack with kitchen knives, etc. banning cars and kitchen knives is not the right solution.

  • @TallBarr.2184 said:
    If voicecom is not against the design of the game why is there no ingame voicecom.

    I think you'll find that there are a lot of things not in the game that ANet accepts, allows, and even encourages.
    In this case, the primary reason that voice isn't part of the game is that it's not ANet's area of expertise. The sensible business choice is to continue to let 3rd parties handle that (and plenty already do so, for free).

    Try not to confuse "not part of the design" with "against the design."

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • @bernstein adelheid.8590 said:
    Do 2 or more PC connected to the same internet connection are counted as multiboxing?

    Yes, absent the context you added below.

    For example, i invite my friend at my home and he bring his laptop/own pc so we can play together in WvW. Will this be an infraction of the new policy?

    That's perfectly acceptable. "Multiboxing" by definition requires that it's one person playing multiple accounts.

    Are the festive events ( jumping puzzles, bell choir, toyapocalipse, Halloween labyrinth ) counted as well?

    • Bell Choir: yes (theoretically anyhow), as it uses the PvP competitive interface. But ANet might ignore it because "winners" don't gain anything extra.
    • JPs: no, that's just ordinary PvE (where multiboxing is already allowed)
    • Toypocolypse: should be fine if you use the "form your own group" version.
    • Halloween Lab: that's PvE; hard to see any objection

    All of this assumes that you are actually playing all accounts, and not using macros or other methods that allow you to do it without some sort of interaction/decision-making on your part. And it also assumes that ANet is following the strictest interpretations of the restated policies (which past experience tells us is unlikely — they don't always make exceptions as I would hope, but they do consider nuances and special circumstances).

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @TallBarr.2184 said:
    snip

    You're right that I don't know Anet's reason. It could very well be different from mine. However, I used to work in a game company, competed nationally in video games, and helped to set up tournaments in the past. The points I made were based on my knowledge and experience in these areas and odds are, Anet's reasoning will be fairly well aligned with my reasonings. But in the absence of Anet's official response, all I can do is share the info I have based on my experience, and my info should be accurate enough. There's not a single tournament in the world I've been involved in where multi-boxing, of any kind, would be allowed. And while regular matches are not tournaments, they still affect other players negatively.

    You're also right that you're free to voice your opinions on this matter. I'm not saying you can't, it was just getting annoying dealing with more players trying to justify what is not allowed. I apologize if my post was too aggressive. If Anet allowed multi-boxing in the past and you were only doing what Anet allowed, I can understand your frustration that the money you spent on alt accounts is now wasted.

    As for raid selling, as I mentioned, this is probably because raid selling is not a competition and does not affect other players. Different modes have different functions so a global rule cannot be applied to everything. As for it involving RMT, the problem is RMT, not the raid selling itself. Punishing raid selling itself would just be making a scapegoat out of it when the real problem is RMT. For example, if some criminal thinks it's OK to run over people with cars, attack with kitchen knives, etc. banning cars and kitchen knives is not the right solution.

    There have never been any seperate guidelines or rules for pvp or wvw, should people be allowed to bring 5 alts or more and register for pvp tournaments - of course not. Should people who intentionally grief their enemy servers with smurf accounts pulling their tactivators or people spying on the enemy server be punished? Of course, but my point is there are still legitimate ways to multibox in wvw that is in line with the previous policy and this one (excluding the NO to all wvw multiboxing). No matter what gamemode i believe all cases should be handled independently, to flat out say no to legitimate players so you dont have to investigate each case is just lazy.

    They could easily just change the policy to:
    1) all alts must be on the same world
    2) alts cant just stand afk in spawn
    3) you must be responsive, like everywhere else in the game where you may be subject to GM messaging you

    This would stop griefers and people spying on their enemies.

    These policies are nothing different then the ones in pve. You and others argue that this is an unfair advantage, and cheating. Does scouting on 1-3 alts give you an advantage? sure, but the rewards and the advantage is miniscule, not all commanders use voicecoms, not everyone have microphones or for other reasons use voicecom. I would argue its investing in something that is available to everyone playing this game if they wanted to. Mostly commanders would benefit from this, there are only limited amount of shared participation spots and the commander have control over them. The commander wouldnt need to rely on other to scout, they would get some extra rewards to fund the siege.

    Just beacuse raids are not competetive why should they be treated differently, if they forbid it raid sellers would have to advertise their possible RMT service elsewhere, why should Anet be okay with people advertising possible RMT in their game, and when they have proof of it happening alot. While it doesnt effect people in a competetive setting it absolutely effects standard players who have to scroll that lfg seeing majority of the posts being advertisements, people say all the time how annoyed and how discouraged they are to try raids when the lfg is filled with advertisement clutter.

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