Some Classes Outshine Others in WvW

that certain classes in WvW just outshine everything?no matter which way they go they will be doing either BETTER then class designed for doing that job or nearly equally good.

isnt it becoming it damn time for some dev to just sit down and tune down certain classes dmg or deffence?to make them either you do X or you do Y but not shine at both while other classes designed to do X or Y cant do both at all.

i mean in PvE all shit works out fine but WvW is whole different cake and yes i know devs havent shown their faces in here ever since gw2 release but seriously i happen to enjoy other classes that arent part of shitty blob zerg, which is okay cus i prefer roaming but got many players who play X class and simply arent accepted cus Y class can do same job and survive better and actually adds more support to squad and etc balabala take away some shit from classes all im saying no need to nerf em, just make it work only for em (heal or w/e) so they lose support they lose quality of being in squad while other class could fill this spot up mean while class that lost it heal still has something else to offer to not make it completely useless.

all in all im just bored of 4 class squads..guard rev necro (dont actually need the rest but w/e so 3 man squad) ele oh and the complete try hards would say mesmer but u rly dont need mesmer

Game is not designed for WvW, so classes will never be balance there.

It sounds like you have more of an issue with squads than classes. Solution: run your own squad.

Not everyone in this game zergs, so you wish to take away skills from classes so they "only do one thing" is just not feasible. No way this flies, sorry.

The meta right now is new rg before pof it was g2ren. Because these are popular. If you find something that synergizes, other tactics work just as good or better.

I try to find a way to fit in it with my class.

Silent thumbs up from me.Oh not so silent now. :s

Its funny firebrands do everything now.They have everything old guards had but now with a TON of dmg thru burning and are able to give out resistance.PoF only hit class diversity.Now you really only need firebrands, scourges and healing tempests.Maybe 2-3 spell breakers for the elite.Anything else is worthless.

@Vova.2640 said:Its funny firebrands do everything now.They have everything old guards had but now with a TON of dmg thru burning and are able to give out resistance.PoF only hit class diversity.Now you really only need firebrands, scourges and healing tempests.Maybe 2-3 spell breakers for the elite.Anything else is worthless.

So, swapped rev for warrior?

Meta (from a class diversity standpoint) has been 4 maybe 5 classes for the last few years.

Guard, rev, necro, ele.

Was Guard, Warrior, ele, necro with the occasional Mesmer thrown in

@FogLeg.9354 said:Game is not designed for WvW, so classes will never be balance there.

Game isn't really designed for any PvP, nor are MMOs in general, which is the reason why I tell people: if you want a PvP game, go find a PvP game, there are so many you're bound to satisfy your competitive itch with one of them.

It just isn't possible to satisfy both a PvE and PvP environment with the same gameplay, and not just because of balance issues from individual abilities, but entire mechanics and gameplay systems having wildly different efficacy levels and uses. And in my opinion GW2 is one of the worst in the latter area. Look at the games defense system, bunkers have ruled PvP with an iron fist since launch, while every defensive stat has been worthless in nearly all PvE content because of the dodge system.

You're not the only one, actually most WvW know this is the case and always has been. You've never needed anymore then 4 of the 9 classes for larger WvW. The others have a place but it's confined to havok for the most part. Anything they can do another class can do better, I would be nice to see some of the less desirable classes get some real love from Anet. Guards are beasts now and while it might be difficult you could technically run a large squad of Guards only and succeed, no other class has this capability. They just need to take a good hard look at the mainly the Medium armor classes but also Mes, just give them some large scale love, tweek a few traits and it could happen. But they haven't yet in all the years so I doubt they ever will. Guards will remain the Backbone of any grp big or small, necro's will always be there for dmg and utility, Ele's are great utility/support (even Ele is a bit less desirable because of the Guard love), Warriors were once up there with Guards (hammertrains) but have been reduced to boon strip bots, can't comment on Rev but I don't see as many. The rest are just kind of meh, Mesmers can be useful but you really only need 1 or 2 max if you even bother to use them at all. Take the person(s) in charge of Guardian & Necro and throw them onto the medium classes for a couple months and you might get something worthwhile.

I'd love to see the game get to the point where every class was desirable in every mode but the track record suggests that it is just a fantasy.

@Conncept.7638 said:

@FogLeg.9354 said:Game is not designed for WvW, so classes will never be balance there.

Sure but I think there is more "balance" in PvP compared to WvW since there is less problems with gear and numbers.

Since any item can be used in WvW the possibility of some combination breaking the game is huge. There is just less possible items in PvP, giving it less chance to be broken. There are some ways to fix it for WvW - for example disabling PvE gear and only making PvP items available. Or implementing hard caps for all the stats, condition and boons. I doubt any of this will happen as there is very little reason to improve your gear for PvE content only.

There is also just less players in PvP, even when everyone in match gets into same battle, it will still be only 5v5. While in WvW there are still 1v1 fights but it goes all the way up to map limit. It is easier to balance the game around 5v5 fights, it is near impossible to even test anything between 20v20, 30v30 or 50v50 battles. All the factors that affect the outcome, each players skill, class, builds, group composition, either the group is trained guild or random pugs, are they is TS or not, terrain, all the possible bonuses, even lag. Trying to balance such fights so every single class, skill and trait is equally usable (while also making sure all the classes, skills and traits are also usable in 1v1 and 5v5, against PvE enemies and PvE bosses)... you simply can not do that.

Some classes are just designed to be better at supporting the group and surviving against huge enemy damage spikes. And others shine in 1v1 fights. Some do well at range and others need to get into melee range. That is why different classes exist. Just because some class is not working great in large scale zerg v zerg fight does not make the class "bad" so it must be completely redesigned, no, the same class could be doing very well 1v1 or shine in open world PvE.

Back in the day you needed combos.I had my place in a wvw zerg as I was blasting everything. Not needed anymore.People didn't learn combos that's why anet kind of scrapped them, nowadays most classes can do everything.

I appreciate that finally every class has a roaming and a zerg viable spec. now it just needs a little tuning to define those roles.

Its a combination of poor balance and some outdated mechanics.

Balance:Every profession has worthless utilities and traits:

• some utilities will be always a better pick compared to others,no matter the situation.
• specialization trees dont give you that much freedom of choices: u get more effects on specific circumstances than actual attributes. (using this grants you that,when at this u will get that,using this weapon will give you that)

Thats y some professions have an "easy" life,lets say,in zerg fights and are preferred compared to others.

Outdated Mechanics

• Slowed when entering in combat.We already have all sort of impairing movements effects with all the CC we have,but still we just need to deal 1 DMG to slow down someone.
• Getting back to full health after exiting combat.I kinda get the point of that in a pve enviroment,when you deaggro a mobb the mobb forget about you (nothing happened) in pvp its not the case.Every profession has access to heals,and there are no potions to spam...so whats the point?!

In a pvp enviroment this 2 aspects are crucial and thats why thieves and mesmers are exquisite good on a roaming role.With stealth,long range teleports...they can easily overcome the "slowed in combat" status and gain distance "faster" ,then reset combat from a safer position.

Why warriors generally pick up GS?Mobility.

It's not just thieves and mesmers who can outrun, it's also warriors, GS necros are pretty fast, eles and guards have leaps and so on and so on. Not so sure that is a valid point and regaining health after a fight shouldn't be either - it doesn't really change anything when you change it to them needing to burn their healing skills. If you want them to stay in combat, keep them in combat.I agree though that the evade mechanics all around are too much.

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:I appreciate that finally every class has a roaming and a zerg viable spec. now it just needs a little tuning to define those roles.I was a solo roamer as a power D/D thief from ferocity patch until traitmerge patch and there was no class and no spec I didn't fight 1 vs 1 (and there was just 3 specs I'd call OP, it was balanced otherwise). It's kind of mind boggeling that people don't get that powercreep isn't/wasn't the answer and never will be.

The WvW skill balance team is outmanned against the overstacked sPvP and PvE teams.

Tired of being spawn camped they've just stopped playing.

@FogLeg.9354 said:Game is not designed for WvW, so classes will never be balance there.

That and the ANet class elite specs are a vertical design, so people feel the need(forced) to €€€ the new gimmick, its not so horizontal has they proclaim.

I kind of disagree. They made the mistake to make HoT specs availlable for PvE - that's where most of the powercreep comes from and yes that was "if that doesn't get more power I'm not buying it" - they didn't repeat the same mistake with PoF, but still got stuck in the powercreep thinking and still didn't really play rock paper scissors with how the specs should be. And they desperatly need to nerf the HoT elites should this game ever have a pvp mode again. But that would/will kitten off the PvE players big time. And the facerollers who are used to it (= the majority of players in this game although WvW players are naturally a bit more sturdy).

@Jana.6831 said:It's not just thieves and mesmers who can outrun, it's also warriors, GS necros are pretty fast, eles and guards have leaps and so on and so on. Not so sure that is a valid point and regaining health after a fight shouldn't be either - it doesn't really change anything when you change it to them needing to burn their healing skills. If you want them to stay in combat, keep them in combat.

How so?! IMO you did not give me any valid argument with your answer.

First we are talking about an "open space" PvP zone: the moment you get out of the safe spot (your respawn) you shuld expect an aggression anytime,anywhere.This is the general idea behind WvW (its a smaller,simplified version of an open world pvp enviroment).So its not a matter of one fight after an other with a reset in between (like a series of duels),it shuld be a matter of constant threat.And healing back to full after getting out of combat (good as new) kinda takes away alot of that vibe.

Second this is exactly the reason why i mentioned thieves and mesmers in a roaming scenario.Not to complain about their exceptional mobility or their ways to engage/disengage at will,but to point out the fact that if u take away this "reset mechanic" and the "slowed while in combat" could they be still considered "the best" at doing this?No,but ofc long-range teleports and stealth together play a huge role to benefit from this kind of mechanic: at the end u wanna get away x meters and be in a neutral state to exit combat and reset.Shadowstep and Blink in particular are not affected by the "slowed while in combat" mechanic in no way,also they are both stunbreak as default and both of them have a max range of 1200.

A GS warrior with rush can get quite the same effect: rush has a 1200 distance,but its not a breakstun as default and u have to pick Warrior's Sprint in the Discipline tree to "cure immobilize".But warriors dont pick GS primarily to get away and reset a fight,the reason is to close the gap and get close.Then ofc they can use it to disengage aswell but its not the priority.

Look,im not here to talk about professions differences or to compare leaps from one to an other,OFC everything goes back to a"balance issue"...infact I talked about a combination of things,and i mentioned some.Im just saying some mechanics are outdated and wrong for a pvp mode.

The downed mechanic its a nice addition in pve; in pvp?!FUCK no,i get back up on my feet cos i managed to tag someone and then he died to something else?!WTF

"Attention Train: Cleave Cleave Cleave those downed to rez back our downed,dont u EVER STOMP,CLEAVE THEM,if u stay to STOMP you on your own" and then people ask why there is no place in a "organized zerg meta" for a ranger or why there is a zerg mentality in the first place.Cos 10 guardians with a staff can cleave much faster while having the sustain to do so compared to other professions.

Some general mechanics need to be addressed in pvp first,cos they directly affect the gameplay.Then u can work on balance.

as usual my 2 cents

@ilMasa.2546 said:snip

Like I said: You are right, the evasive mechanics need to be nerfed, probably all around. It's not as commmon as you make it out to be that someone runs away just to come back when they regained their health, so I don't think it's that important, especially when devs might agree that methods to get away need to be reviewed - that would be a double nerf and would hurt those who were lucky to get away from a group. I don't think your idea would make small scale better.And not all thieves have got the ability to engage and disengage that easily - it's usually only D/P daredevils who can do that. But you guys don't get that it's reliant on the set and the elite and demand thieves to be nerfed and anet aren't that smart ;)I like the downed state. I don't really get why people are argueing against it. It's especially nifty for zerg/blob fights. Not so much for small scale.

I hope I have explained everything with this.

@Conncept.7638 said:

@FogLeg.9354 said:Game is not designed for WvW, so classes will never be balance there.

its tbh, but PvE shouldnt be the center of game.u balance a game around PvP because PvE will always be piss easy and is piss easy to "balance" u just tune mobs "power/deffence" up or down and done u cant make npc's smarter anyway u can just make em more of a punchbag and a harder hitter.

Anet is making PvE the center of the game and trying to balance around that..which is simply not working if i do 2million dmg hit on npc no1 will complain if i do this in WvW or sPvP the forum will blow up. thus why balance around PvP and then turn towards PvE when u got balance right cus PvE doesnt matter.

@Conncept.7638 said:

@FogLeg.9354 said:Game is not designed for WvW, so classes will never be balance there.

Erm, the class / combat mechanics of this game were designed around PvP & their "e-sport", they then went on to balance around that to virtually the complete exclusion of everything else for 3 years, it was when they decided to add PvE raids with HoT they changed mechanics / started to consider PvE balance in addition.

WvW on the other hand has never got more than the odd crumb thrown its way when it came to balance or class design.

Only a few things "work" in WvW:

• Ground cast AoE
• Non-projectile ranged attacks (like mesmer's Greatsword autoattack or Coalescence of Ruin)
• Point blank AoE (including cleaving autoattacks)
• Healing/Stability/Blocks/Boons ("support")

What works in general in PvP is:

• Strong power burst (power spike)
• Strong condi burst (enough damage and enough "cover" for the burst to actually do damage before being cleansed)
• Strong CC
• Strong boonrip
• Unblockable spells

And then you see what has been meta since 2012:

• Guardian/Dragonhunter/Firebrand: has strong support, some ranged groundcast AoE, huge personal survivability, decent (or at least used to be) autoattacks
• Necro/Reaper/Scourge: some of the best power and condi burst (both ground cast and point blank aoe), plenty of boon corrupt, strong CC, plenty of unblockable spells
• Elementalist/Tempest/Weaver: great ground cast power damage, great support (aura sharing, boons, healing)

In and out the meta we had:

• Warrior/Berserker: great pointblank and ground cast aoe, decent support (anyone remember worker warriors?), great personal survivability
• Spellbreaker: good pointblank and ground cast aoe, great personal survivability, great boonstrip
• Revenants: great ranged power burst damage (hammer), great support (boonshare, condi cleanse/resistance), great condi burst damage
• Chronomancers: great boonshare support, some boonstrip, some interesting utilities and strong CC (needs to give up most of it's damage to play this role and be in the frontlines though)

Never been meta in zergs:

• Druid/Ranger: support is limited compared to Ele/Tempest, damage is bad (mostly projectiles for long range, lack of good ground cast aoe)
• Thief: good power and condi burst potential, but again terrible ranged AoE options (projectiles)
• Engineer: the ranged options are problematic (mortar, projectile; grenades, multiple projectiles), none of the melee options are particularly good either, and doesn't bring the same support (or with the same ease) as a Guardian

So... until ANet doesn't provide either a different way to play WvW (smaller groups where the aforementioned classes can still shine) or a different way to play those classes ... they will never be meta in groups.

Of course this is only my opinion.

As a side note: as mesmer main, illusions/shatters are a terrible class mechanic that does not work in large scale fights due to the fragility of illusions.

@Swamurabi.7890 said:The WvW skill balance team is outmanned against the overstacked sPvP and PvE teams.

Tired of being spawn camped they've just stopped playing.

Are you really believe that this team even exist?

The most frustrating thing regarding to diversity is that elite specializations don't really increase the diversity much, rather, it's killing the diversity.

Now we ended up with only Firebrand and Scourge being meta in a group, and Guardians/Dragonhunters/Reapers were already meta before. They're not "specializations", they're condi creep.

Clearly WvW balance is totally broken.

Because hitting stuff in wvw is stupidly hard. Give us unblockable share pls.