The way forward, glint's legacy (spoilers)

Glint's legacy is "to preserve Tyria's magical balance by replacing Elder Dragons with equally powerful but less predatory entities." We know Aurene is a candidate, but were she to replace Kralkatorrik we would still have two missing slots and three predators.

Who will fill the vacuum left by Mordremoth and Zhaitan?If we can't continually sleep them, who will replace the Jormag, Primordius, and Bubbles?Do we even need six separate entities, or could Aurene absorb them all?

The Pale Tree seems to be the obvious candidate for replacing Mordremoth but I'm stumped on the others. IIRC Joko is the strongest necromancer we know, but he isn't benevolent. I don't know any candidates that fit the other domains but I also don't know if replacements need a prexisiting affinity.

As far as we know, the plans been tossed out the window because we couldn't keep it in our sheathes.

More than likely, we'd have needed Aurene and Vlast to actually fill the spots of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but with Vlast dead and Kralkatorrik on the rise, we have to deal with the fallout of Kralk and his Balthazar snackage. Aurene can still take the place of Zhaitan or Mordremoth, perhaps not in terms of controlling their domains, but in terms of fulfilling a spot as one of the six entities that controls magic.

Having the Pale Tree take the place of Mordremoth feels, at best, like a last second deus ex machina that had two seconds of thought put into it. I'd rather not have the Pale Tree take any form of role in the antikytheria.

Speaking of, yes, we do need six entities, because the anti-kytheria is balanced upon six entities retaining balance of the worlds magic.

I'd actually love to have one of the celestial dragons from Cantha take the place of an elder dragon. We have no clue about their role or connection to the elder dragons, but if there is even a hint that they could possibly take a place as one of the six beings, i'd much prefer that than most alternatives (that is if we ever return to cantha).

@castlemanic.3198 said:More than likely, we'd have needed Aurene and Vlast to actually fill the spots of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but with Vlast dead and Kralkatorrik on the rise, we have to deal with the fallout of Kralk and his Balthazar snackage. Aurene can still take the place of Zhaitan or Mordremoth, perhaps not in terms of controlling their domains, but in terms of fulfilling a spot as one of the six entities that controls magic.

By the sounds of it, the plan from the get go was to replace all six. Not just to use solely Vlast and Aurene. I imagine that Glint, Vlast, and Aurene were all intended to replace a dragon. I'd say Glint was intending to replace Kralkatorrik, while Vlast was intended to take Zhaitan's and Aurene to take Mordremoth's (based on locations of their "nursery cities"). And then later Forgotten had gambled on cleansing Kralkatorrik - likely due to Glint's death.

It's also possible the purified Blighting Trees (Pale Tree, Malyck's Tree, possibly even the Tower of Nightmares) were intended to replace one or more spots, but I doubt it - they're trees, not dragons. And the dragon thing seems to be key, which would make Joko not a valid candidate.

Kuunavang may be capable of taking a spot, hard to say. Shiny too, but I doubt the Forgotten knew of Shiny (disappointed in no Shiny in PoF).

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I don't know any candidates that fit the other domains but I also don't know if replacements need a prexisiting affinity.

I would say no, because Aurene, a crystal dragon, took in a bunch of Mordremoth's power. And that was clearly intended given Tarir was built knowingly on top of Mordremoth's waking spot. In addition, Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik all took power from other dragons.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:More than likely, we'd have needed Aurene and Vlast to actually fill the spots of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but with Vlast dead and Kralkatorrik on the rise, we have to deal with the fallout of Kralk and his Balthazar snackage. Aurene can still take the place of Zhaitan or Mordremoth, perhaps not in terms of controlling their domains, but in terms of fulfilling a spot as one of the six entities that controls magic.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:I don't know any candidates that fit the other domains but I also don't know if replacements need a prexisiting affinity.

I'm not so sure the plan was to replace all 6, based on what I heard/read in the story mission in which we retrieve the lost memories of Glint...it sounded more like the plan was to balance out the power between benevolent and malicious. Vlast and Aurene would be the two benevolent holders while whomever was left alive would be the malicious holders, the only thing that needed to be done was to have the magic be in "perfect" state of balance so that there was never enough to wake the dragons but enough for them to remain "asleep"...at least that is what I gathered from the reveal of Glint's Legacy. Of course I could be entirely wrong too.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:It's also possible the purified Blighting Trees (Pale Tree, Malyck's Tree, possibly even the Tower of Nightmares) were intended to replace one or more spots, but I doubt it - they're trees, not dragons. And the dragon thing seems to be key, which would make Joko not a valid candidate.

What's so special about being a dragon?

@castlemanic.3198 said:

Having the Pale Tree take the place of Mordremoth feels, at best, like a last second deus ex machina that had two seconds of thought put into it. I'd rather not have the Pale Tree take any form of role in the antikytheria.

I'd disagree there. It's been established as far back as the Personal Story that even rank-and-file dragon minions can consume magic, and the Pale Tree is much, much more than that. If it does turn out that non-dragon entities can fill the role, I'd consider her to be the best established candidate.

Personally, though, before we go any further with the Forgotten/Glint plan, I'd like to hear more about the Seer one. Unlike the Forgotten, they actually succeeded in making something that, so far as we can tell, stored magic the way a dragon does. They might not circulate magic in the same way, which may or may not turn out to be important, but they could at least address the short-term consequences that are currently complicating matters. Even if it is true that the means to make a bloodstone are no longer available, there still ought to be four intact ones around, and with the fate of the world at stake I think they're at least worth digging up and taking a look. If they could be repurposed, or even just operated according to their original purpose, they should at least be able to serve as a stop-gap measure the next time an Elder Dragon just has to be killed.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:It's also possible the purified Blighting Trees (Pale Tree, Malyck's Tree, possibly even the Tower of Nightmares) were intended to replace one or more spots, but I doubt it - they're trees, not dragons. And the dragon thing seems to be key, which would make Joko not a valid candidate.

At this point nothing really.Mostly consitency.

With Mordremoth's representation in his mind it isn't even sure that he was a dragon to beginn with. Maybe an reptile.

So far we can only asume that the eldar dragon energy does have a tendency to turn it's wielders into a dragon like creature (or in case of Mordremoth into a giant snake like beeing).

Otherwise (and thanks to the lack of information), it could just have been the case, that in the past dragons were the dominant species and they were the only ones able to handle that power. The six survived several of the magic consuming circle and now we call it the elder dragon energy or something. So far we have no real explanation of the whole ordeal, to be honest.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Personally, though, before we go any further with the Forgotten/Glint plan, I'd like to hear more about the Seer one. Unlike the Forgotten, they actually succeeded in making something that, so far as we can tell, stored magic the way a dragon does. They might not circulate magic in the same way, which may or may not turn out to be important, but they could at least address the short-term consequences that are currently complicating matters. Even if it is true that the means to make a bloodstone are no longer available, there still ought to be four intact ones around, and with the fate of the world at stake I think they're at least worth digging up and taking a look. If they could be repurposed, or even just operated according to their original purpose, they should at least be able to serve as a stop-gap measure the next time an Elder Dragon just has to be killed.

Well, we still have the Current Events from about a year ago where we reforged a Shadowstone. Unfortunately, we haven´t heard anything about it (or Current Events) for a while now. Also the Shadowstone can be in either the Consortium's or the Priory's hands, making it a bit more challenging to fit it in a coherent story for all players.

@Zaklex.6308 said:I'm not so sure the plan was to replace all 6, based on what I heard/read in the story mission in which we retrieve the lost memories of Glint...it sounded more like the plan was to balance out the power between benevolent and malicious. Vlast and Aurene would be the two benevolent holders while whomever was left alive would be the malicious holders, the only thing that needed to be done was to have the magic be in "perfect" state of balance so that there was never enough to wake the dragons but enough for them to remain "asleep"...at least that is what I gathered from the reveal of Glint's Legacy. Of course I could be entirely wrong too.

Sadizi outright states in his little cinematic that the intention was to replace the malicious forces with beneficial ones. No indication of half and half. But the plan got skewed when two Elder Dragons died.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:What's so special about being a dragon?

Dragons eat magic. And thus far have been the only thing hinted to be able to replace an Elder Dragon.

@Jaken.6801 said:At this point nothing really.Mostly consitency.

With Mordremoth's representation in his mind it isn't even sure that he was a dragon to beginn with. Maybe an reptile.

So far we can only asume that the eldar dragon energy does have a tendency to turn it's wielders into a dragon like creature (or in case of Mordremoth into a giant snake like beeing).

Otherwise (and thanks to the lack of information), it could just have been the case, that in the past dragons were the dominant species and they were the only ones able to handle that power. The six survived several of the magic consuming circle and now we call it the elder dragon energy or something. So far we have no real explanation of the whole ordeal, to be honest.

Mordremoth's body highly resembles a Mystical Dragon. Given this event icon for fighting Mordremoth's "midsection", he was planned to have little stubby feet too, rather than just wacking his underside.

I think Kuunavang is still alive and kicking, so she is a candidate as well seeing as she's staved off corruption before and seemingly has no allegiances to any known Elder Dragons.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Mordremoth's body highly resembles a Mystical Dragon. Given this event icon for fighting Mordremoth's "midsection", he was planned to have little stubby feet too, rather than just wacking his underside.

But that's his body. Not his mind. Would Trahearne have turned into a dragon had the mind transfer gone unnoticed?

IIRC didn't the Pale Tree absorb some of Mordremoth's power when he died. Her body may be a tree but maybe not her mind, assuming being a dragon is necessary.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Mordremoth's body highly resembles a

Mystical Dragon

. Given

this event icon

for fighting Mordremoth's "midsection", he was planned to have little stubby feet too, rather than just wacking his underside.

Why would the "shape of his mind" matter? Even the bipedal so-armored-he-looks-fat avatar wasn't how Mordremoth saw himself. His mind depiction was this thing which in The Departing you can even see for a moment extends to continue his body's appearance.

As for Trahearne's body changing... honestly, too little information. Dragon minions do become more draconic the more power they have, but that's when they're made. Unlike most other dragon minions, sylvari can (sometimes drastically) change their appearance.

And nothing ever said the Pale Tree absorbed some of Mordremoth's power. Mordremoth's power went in four directions - north towards Tarir and Bloodstone Fen; south towards Ember Bay (eaten by Primordus); west into the unknown; and east towards, eventually, Kralkatorrik. While the east direction could have hit the Pale Tree, nothing says she got a power boost.

@Konig Des Todes.2086

Tequatl evolved when uncontrolled magic reshaped itself. A process which likely happened to the Pale Tree as well.

As a former minion couldn't she augment her ability to absorb magic? Forgive the argument from analogy, but a God only needs more power to become more divine. Is it possible the Pale Tree could become more draconic?

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Tequatl evolved when uncontrolled magic reshaped itself. A process which likely happened to the Pale Tree as well.Tequatl, unlike the Pale Tree, was a dragon. Tequatl, unlike the Pale Tree, we were told outright got a power boost from unbound magic.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Forgive the argument from analogy, but a God only needs more power to become more divine.

You're putting supposition as fact. We, ultimately, still do not know what makes a being a "god". Even after replacing most of his power, Balthazar was nothing compared to his original form as he did not blind the PC when we looked upon him.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Is it possible the Pale Tree could become more draconic?

Probably not, given she is a tree.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

Having the Pale Tree take the place of Mordremoth feels, at best, like a last second deus ex machina that had two seconds of thought put into it. I'd rather not have the Pale Tree take any form of role in the antikytheria.

The impression I'm getting is that the Bloodstones have essentially already soaked up about as much as they can - either they're limited in rate or in capacity, but the Bloodstone Fen stone apparently absorbed energy from the deaths of the dragons, but clearly did not absorb enough to prevent the magic levels from rising.

Keep in mind, after all, that the original stone was made in order to hide away what magic remained after the Elder Dragons had already consumed most of Tyria's magic, with the stone only sealing away what had remained. It was probably never intended to contain two or three dragons worth of magic.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:...Tequatl, unlike the Pale Tree, we were told outright got a power boost from unbound magic.

Uncontrolled magic, not unbound."The evolution of Tequatl is a consequence of the death of Zhaïtan. The magic used to create Tequatl is no longer controlled by Zhaïtan but exists in Tequatl. Thus, like most magic energies without control, it evolves and changes its form." - Ree Soesbee

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:You're putting supposition as fact. We, ultimately, still do not know what makes a being a "god". Even after replacing most of his power, Balthazar was nothing compared to his original form as he did not blind the PC when we looked upon him.

I should have clarified I meant divine power. And "most" is stretching it. We don't know how much power a God has, or whether they can convert ley/dragon magic. Though I personally think the later true. But again, argument from analogy, Kormir could ascend by absorbing Abbadon , perhaps the Pale Tree could become an ED.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Probably not, given she is a tree.

Neither the avatar, nor plant-body, of Mordremoth and the Pale Tree are draconic. We judge the former by their Mouth and Mind. The Pale Tree does not have a Mouth, and we have not seen her Mind. If being a dragon is required, who is to say the Pale Tree is just a tree.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I'd disagree there. It's been established as far back as the Personal Story that even rank-and-file dragon minions can consume magic, and the Pale Tree is much, much more than that. If it does turn out that non-dragon entities can fill the role, I'd consider her to be the best established candidate.

Adding to your point. Glint was cleansed by the forgotten to serve as a replacement. Why was the Pale Tree cleansed? Practice? Or perhaps another replacement.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I should have clarified I meant divine power. And "most" is stretching it. We don't know how much power a God has, or whether they can convert ley/dragon magic. Though I personally think the later true. But again, argument from analogy, Kormir could ascend by absorbing Abbadon , perhaps the Pale Tree could become an ED.

Most as in enough to take on his original flame-wreathed appearance, and enough to make Balthazar say "I feel much better now." Most as in more than likely over 50% of his original power.

Kormir was blessed by the gods and absorbed a god-who-was-very-humanoid's magic. The Pale Tree is a tree, not a dragon absorbing dragon's magic.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Neither the avatar, nor plant-body, of Mordremoth and the Pale Tree are draconic. We judge the former by their Mouth and Mind. The Pale Tree does not have a Mouth, and we have not seen her Mind. If being a dragon is required, who is to say the Pale Tree is just a tree.

Mordremoth's body was very much draconic, just not a traditional western style dragon. We know the Pale Tree is just a tree because, beyond its obvious appearance and its name, we have the Blighting Trees, which were not dragons and there'd be no reason for those trees to not take on the form of dragons if they could. Especially in self-defense.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Adding to your point. Glint was cleansed by the forgotten to serve as a replacement. Why was the Pale Tree cleansed? Practice? Or perhaps another replacement.

An entire cave of seeds was cleansed, best we can tell. No reason attached to it. Practice sounds probable, given that they were just seeds thus incapable of self-defense.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Most as in enough to take on his original flame-wreathed appearance, and enough to make Balthazar say "I feel much better now." Most as in more than likely over 50% of his original power.Kormir was blessed by the gods and absorbed a god-who-was-very-humanoid's magic. The Pale Tree is a tree, not a dragon absorbing dragon's magic

Yet not enough to cause him to blind. You are interpreting it as a sign he is not converting ley to divine. I interpret it as blinding occurs closer to 100%.And Trahearne was a Sylvari. A dragon mind can be stored in a humanoid body, so why not a tree?

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Mordremoth's body was very much draconic, just not a traditional western style dragon. We know the Pale Tree is just a tree because, beyond its obvious appearance and its name, we have the Blighting Trees, which were not dragons and there'd be no reason for those trees to not take on the form of dragons if they could. Especially in self-defense.

By that logic Zhaitan is a giant abomination with a mouth where a stomach would be. A Mouth is not the body. And by all accounts champions cannot spawn champions. Were the Pale Tree to gain more power, perhaps she could grow a Mouth that resembles a dragon. She wouldn't take on the form. Mordremoth's draconic Mouth was separate from the large tree he stored his mind in.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Most as in enough to take on his original flame-wreathed appearance, and enough to make Balthazar say "I feel much better now." Most as in more than likely over 50% of his original power.Kormir was blessed by the gods and absorbed a god-who-was-very-humanoid's magic. The Pale Tree is a tree, not a dragon absorbing dragon's magic

We've seen enough hints to show that divine magic is inherently not Tyrian and above that immune to dragon consumption and corruption. Divine Torch, Bloodstone, Forgotten magic, and even Foefire magic all have ties to the gods directly or indirectly and all show immunity or counteraction to dragons. The magic that Balthazar releases is absorbed by Kralkatorrik, had come from bloodstone, Jormag, and Primordus, and we see at the end a hint - according to this dev post here - and re-watching the cinematic I now take note of the red sky (Primordus), and the blue (Jormag) and very-few lime (Mordremoth) crystals. All the magic absorbed by Balthazar and into Kralkatorrik can be associated with the dragons. He didn't convert magic into divine.

Also, as Taimi had stated in Season 3, apparently "ley energy" is just the six spectrums of dragon magic mixed together in a non-harmful manner.

Mordremoth was born a dragon. Pale Tree was born a tree. THere's a fundamental difference. We cannot even be sure to say that Mordremoth's mind wouldn't have reshaped in Trahearne's body, or vice versa.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:By that logic Zhaitan is a giant abomination with a mouth where a stomach would be. A Mouth is not the body. And by all accounts champions cannot spawn champions. Were the Pale Tree to gain more power, perhaps she could grow a Mouth that resembles a dragon. She wouldn't take on the form. Mordremoth's draconic Mouth was separate from the large tree he stored his mind in.

The Mouth of Zhaitan wasn't Zhaiten but a champion, but the Mouth of Mordremoth was Mordremoth. That's not hard to figure out. It's even outright stated in the heart at the academy in Vabbi. One of the options to fill the heart is to answer student questions, these questions being about Joko's exploits. When correcting them on Mordremoth's death, the Pact Commander says Mordremoth impaled its head on a tree spike. That's how the Mouth of Mordremoth dies.

ArenaNet used poor naming choices, which has confused you, but it's pretty pointblank clear.

His mind was not stored in the tree. The tree was just an epicenter of corruption - the equivalent of the Artesian Waters for Zhaitan.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:We've seen enough hints to show that divine magic is inherently not Tyrian and above that immune to dragon consumption and corruption.

Good point. I cannot refute that.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 saidThe Mouth of Zhaitan wasn't Zhaiten but a champion, but the Mouth of Mordremoth was Mordremoth. That's not hard to figure out. It's even outright stated in the heart at the academy in Vabbi. One of the options to fill the heart is to answer student questions, these questions being about Joko's exploits. When correcting them on Mordremoth's death, the Pact Commander says Mordremoth impaled its head on a tree spike. That's how the Mouth of Mordremoth dies.

Do you have the exact quote? The lecture changes daily, and today is on Zhaitan.

It's not part of the lecture, but when you talk to the students to progress the heart. They'll ask a (seemingly randomized) question about "Joko's exploits", which could be how he killed Zhaitan alone, defeated Mordremoth with his pinky, or exterminated all centaurs everywhere (possibly more). Joko claims to have used his pinky finger to impale Mordremoth on a tree, you correct the student saying that Mordremoth impaled itself on a tree.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:It's not part of the lecture, but when you talk to the students to progress the heart. They'll ask a (seemingly randomized) question about "Joko's exploits", which could be how he killed Zhaitan alone, defeated Mordremoth with his pinky, or exterminated all centaurs everywhere (possibly more). Joko claims to have used his pinky finger to impale Mordremoth on a tree, you correct the student saying that Mordremoth impaled itself on a tree.

It is odd that the commander specifies "mordremoth impaled itself on a tree" and not "in it's death throes, it impaled itself on a tree". It's seemingly acknowledged by the devs since even the student goes "why would it do that?". I do love that heart and the genuinely realistic reactions students would have to a stranger showing up saying "I killed zhaitan, mordremoth killed itself" when they've been taught and wholly believe otherwise.

I wonder what the solution to the problem of "there aren't enough good dragons to help" would be. Perhaps as konig suggested, maybe shiny would show up in season 4?

Things like that kitten me right off as a Norn player. There is no way my character would ever pass up a chance to self-aggrandize. He should tell the kids that he swung the giant snek around by it's tail and slammed it down and impaling it on the entire friggin' tree!

@Oglaf.1074 said:Things like that kitten me right off as a Norn player. There is no way my character would ever pass up a chance to self-aggrandize. He should tell the kids that he swung the giant snek around by it's tail and slammed it down and impaling it on the entire friggin' tree!

Boasting of a feat is far different from aggrandizing a feat and making it bigger than it is. No one, not even norn, would take you seriously if you said you grabbed mordremoth by the tail and wiggled him silly until he cried for momma. Especially considering being called dragon slayer is THE greatest feat a norn has ever accomplished, slaying not one but two ancient and powerful beyond belief beings. That alone is worth of walking into hoelbrak, merely whispering "i killed zhaitan and mordremoth" and having a swarm of norn carry you on their shoulder and buy you drinks for days. Adding godslayer on top of that and you'd be drunk within minutes on the finest brews in Tyria.

Clearly you don't hang around drunken Norns a lot.

Besides, I was exaggerating for comedy/effect obviously. My point is that while that dialogue might be fine for non-Norn races, there definitely should at the very least be the option to boast about it as a Norn. I mean, the foundation of every Norn doing literally anything is to forge a legend around themselves.